Flags and FAQs

louis · 2018-04-28 17:42:05

Perhaps we should be asking some questions frequently about the Space X Mars mission:

1. What will be its legal status? Will the US Government declare it to be happening under their aegis, in line with the Outer Space Treaty?

2. Are there going to be any flags planted on Space X's Mission One? If so what will the flag(s) be? Here are a few possibilities:

- The flag of the USA
- A Space X company flag.
- A United Nations flag.
- A specially designed Mars mission flag (like the Apollo pendants).
- A Mars Settlement flag (intended to become the flag of an independent Mars community).

Should Mars be a flag-free zone? Should that be the first law of Mars: "No flags of any kind shall be flown or erected."

I think I am tending to that last proposition...it's a new start so let's dispense with the flags - it's more about the quality of the community you build than symbols, or staking claims or territory.

[I suspect the flag issue is already something Space X are grappling with...]

Last edited by louis (2018-04-28 20:28:44)

SpaceNut · 2018-04-28 19:14:43

Anyone leaving from Earth will always have a flag attached to who they are even if they claim to be neutral and for mars as the first entities to claim it.
The flag planted on the moon was a US flag but it was placed in the frame of it being planted for all man kind and not just for the US.

So this flag could be a logo of cola products, Nike brand swish or your favorite beer and not just of a nation... it is still just a symbol that they were here to those that follow...

kbd512 · 2018-04-28 19:29:15

Leave the flags at home. The spacecraft already have flags painted on them. How much waving your banner all over the place is required?

RobertDyck · 2018-04-28 19:46:32

Well, under UN treaty no nation can claim territory on any celestial body. That means all of Mars is international waters. Under that rule, the spacecraft can carry the flag of a nation, but they can't claim land. So painting a "Old Glory" or the NASA meatball on the spacecraft is appropriate, but not planting a flag.

Of course I like SpaceNut's suggestion of corporate sponsorship. Gene Roddenberry himself appeared in a beer ad. That brand of beer became my favourite.

louis · 2018-04-28 20:32:52

Well, quite...but why paint a flag on your rocket.

As I wrote earlier, I would prefer to see a "flag-free" mission. Just don't mention flags or origin or anything like that...this is a new beginning. It's for humanity as a whole. Maybe have the rocket launch emblazoned in US flags but let's forget flags when we get to Mars.

kbd512 wrote:

Leave the flags at home. The spacecraft already have flags painted on them. How much waving your banner all over the place is required?

Oldfart1939 · 2018-04-28 22:12:54

The United States, I recall, is NOT A SIGNATORY of that treaty. Trust me in this: if the U.S. Government has paid for, or sponsored the mission, there will be a flag. The next country capable of pulling it out of the ground is free to do so.

RobertDyck · 2018-04-28 22:26:19

Oldfart1939 wrote:

The United States, I recall, is NOT A SIGNATORY of that treaty.

Outer Space Treaty

Article II
Outer space, including the moon and other celestial bodies, is not subject to national appropriation by claim of sovereignty, by means of use or occupation, or by any other means.

Signatories

United States of America signed 27 January 1967, ratified 10 October 1967.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2018-04-28 22:26:58)

louis · 2018-04-29 06:47:49

I think it's the Moon Treaty that the USA didn't sign up to - in fact I am not sure that Treaty ever became operative because of a lack of signatories.

Oldfart1939 wrote:

The United States, I recall, is NOT A SIGNATORY of that treaty. Trust me in this: if the U.S. Government has paid for, or sponsored the mission, there will be a flag. The next country capable of pulling it out of the ground is free to do so.

GW Johnson · 2018-04-29 08:36:56

Putting a flag on the moon at the landing site is not the same as laying claim to the moon or any part of it. Same will be true at Mars. Whoever lands there, and whenever they get there, will plant flags. Inevitable. And rather meaningless.

Because of that fact of life, this particular debate seems more like debating angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin, than anything to do with reality.

Just my opinion, but there it is.

GW

RobertDyck · 2018-04-29 10:21:08

Wikipedia: Moon Treaty

The Agreement Governing the Activities of States on the Moon and Other Celestial Bodies, better known as the Moon Treaty or Moon Agreement, is an international treaty that turns jurisdiction of all celestial bodies (including the orbits around such bodies) over to the international community. Thus, all activities must conform to international law, including the United Nations Charter.
In practice it is a failed treaty because it has not been ratified by any state that engages in self-launched manned space exploration or has plans to do so (e.g. the United States, the larger part of the member states of the European Space Agency, Russia (former Soviet Union), People's Republic of China and Japan) since its creation in 1979, and thus has a negligible effect on actual spaceflight. As of January 2018, it had been ratified by 18 states.
...
The treaty was finalized in 1979 and entered into force for the ratifying parties in 1984. As of January 2018, 18 states are parties to the treaty, seven of which ratified the agreement and the rest acceded. Four additional states have signed but not ratified the treaty. The L5 Society and others successfully opposed ratification of the treaty by the United States Senate.
The objection to the treaty by the spacefaring nations is held to be the requirement that extracted resources (and the technology used to that end) must be shared with other nations. The similar regime in the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea is believed to impede the development of such industries on the seabed.

SpaceNut · 2018-04-29 12:20:44

These treaties have been viewed as a road block to gaining access to space.

The Outer Space Treaty - Does the OST need revision? by EarthWolf

The Space Settlement Initiative by DaveBrett

Should NASA be merged with other space agencies? - Creating a Unified, Single framework. by srmeaney

Article about colonizing Mars - Does someone remember this? by stargazer

The Space Settlement Initiative is now at this URL - Land-claim recognition would raise $$$ by DaveBrett

The Outer Space Treaty by Terraformer

Hudson's Bay Company - an interesting analogy? by louis

The Outer Space Treaty: A Case of Inatful Drafting by Scott Beach

To which we have talked about the way around it by forming a consortium to go and to work as if we are Antartica....

The MarsDrive Consortium

Mars Exploration Consortium.

Space X to Lead Mars Consortium? by louis

Then again we have talked about the Private and coporate approach...

NDSS National Department of Space Settlement - We've explored, now let's occupy! by deagleninja

Who'll get their first and stay - Governments or Private by PeterJ

private companies

Corporate Government by RobertDyck

So in the end we have talked and still do not have a solution to what can be done and what can not....

Just now finished fixing all the older topics....

louis · 2018-04-29 16:38:13

I think the OST is actually very favourable to Mars settlement by companies like Space X. Any revised treaty would seek to tie and bind companies like Space X and make them subject to "expert committees" of scientists.

SpaceNut wrote:

These treaties have been viewed as a road block to gaining access to space.
The Outer Space Treaty - Does the OST need revision? by EarthWolf
The Space Settlement Initiative by DaveBrett
Should NASA be merged with other space agencies? - Creating a Unified, Single framework. by srmeaney
Article about colonizing Mars - Does someone remember this? by stargazer
The Space Settlement Initiative is now at this URL - Land-claim recognition would raise $$$ by DaveBrett
The Outer Space Treaty by Terraformer
Hudson's Bay Company - an interesting analogy? by louis
The Outer Space Treaty: A Case of Inatful Drafting by Scott Beach
To which we have talked about the way around it by forming a consortium to go and to work as if we are Antartica....
The MarsDrive Consortium
Mars Exploration Consortium.
Space X to Lead Mars Consortium? by louis
Then again we have talked about the Private and coporate approach...
NDSS National Department of Space Settlement - We've explored, now let's occupy! by deagleninja
Who'll get their first and stay - Governments or Private by PeterJ
private companies
Corporate Government by RobertDyck
So in the end we have talked and still do not have a solution to what can be done and what can not....

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#1 2018-04-28 17:42:05

Flags and FAQs

#2 2018-04-28 19:14:43

Re: Flags and FAQs

#3 2018-04-28 19:29:15

Re: Flags and FAQs

#4 2018-04-28 19:46:32

Re: Flags and FAQs

#5 2018-04-28 20:32:52

Re: Flags and FAQs

#6 2018-04-28 22:12:54

Re: Flags and FAQs

#7 2018-04-28 22:26:19

Re: Flags and FAQs

#8 2018-04-29 06:47:49

Re: Flags and FAQs

#9 2018-04-29 08:36:56

Re: Flags and FAQs

#10 2018-04-29 10:21:08

Re: Flags and FAQs

#11 2018-04-29 12:20:44

Re: Flags and FAQs

#12 2018-04-29 16:38:13

Re: Flags and FAQs

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