Article about colonizing Mars - Does someone remember this?

stargazer · 2005-02-06 10:18:58

Hi all

I read an interesting article some weeks ago about 2 scientists arguing it is not reasonable to colonize Mars, and I can't find it anymore. It could have been space.com or marsnews.com or thespacereview.com. If only could I find the link so that you could read it. It would probably be nothing new to this forum (which is a great forum indeed and I enjoy reading it) but it made me think about it.

If I remember correctly there were 2 scientists who argued that while small Mars bases could exist, large scale colonization would be too cumbersome to ever work. As much as I would like to see Mars colonized, what do you all think about this?

Rxke · 2005-02-06 10:56:47

Hi, stargazer, welcome to New Mars!

(though the name sounds familiar... Are you the stargazer from the ES boards?)

I'd like to read that article, too, so if anyone knows where it's located, please tell us!

Grypd · 2005-02-06 13:32:20

well try this one

http://www.space.com/news/moon_or_mars_ … ]Space.com Moon Or Mars

Hope this helps

Rxke · 2005-02-06 15:33:02

Thanks, Grypd!

:up:

Martin_Tristar · 2005-02-06 22:29:20

Stargazer,

It depends on the development of technology and the reasons behind the colonization of mars or moon or any other planet or moon in our solar system. Those scientists sound like the men in the 1500's total the world was flat or the solar system orbited the earth or just ocean between europe and asia.

Colonization of Mars, moon or any other planet or moon can be done but not in spacecrafts like on the star trek or any other sci-fi show. but in a cramped spacecraft with limited facilities and calculated risks. At the end of the days the first generation of colony / settlement vessels are like the wagons trains of 1900's explorers coming to a new land ( new world ) for settlement and learning technologies , innovate new processors to survive.

Dook · 2005-02-07 04:37:23

Colonization can be achieved rather easily in my opinion, just send four couples a year for 5-10 years. The population would grow slowly but this time would be needed to improve/increase the food supply and terraform the planet. The population would eventually equal the earth's.

I know this isn't fast enough for most of you but why act like you are in a race when there is nothing to race?

stargazer · 2005-02-07 05:02:50

I too think it's feasible to make humans live at Mars, it just takes time and hard work at the beginning. May not be very comfortable & luxurious life for the 1-2 generations but if they don't mind it then it is ok.

I think it is obvious that there will be sufficient amount of people who want to live there no matter how hard it is.

Rxke I'm not the same from ES boards

SpaceNut · 2005-02-07 06:11:18

With colonization of the moon or mars it means that exploration or science objectives are done. This is a problem since governments are there to do science and not to colonize. Since there is no low cost means to get there and no return profits other than the price per seat to go. Making that last step to start colonization will be difficult against the goverments stacking of the deck IMO.

Commodore · 2005-02-07 17:08:31

With colonization of the moon or mars it means that exploration or science objectives are done. This is a problem since governments are there to do science and not to colonize. Since there is no low cost means to get there and no return profits other than the price per seat to go. Making that last step to start colonization will be difficult against the goverments stacking of the deck IMO.

Science and Exploration will continue all throughout and long after "settlement" is completed. We are still learning alot about the Earth, are we not?

I don't think colonization will be difficult, relatively speaking. The first teams will be be expensive, but once their established, they can build the support systems for the next batch arriving. Once thats complete they are free to explore their interests. The new batch does the same for the next new batch. Sort of like indentured survitude. After a while reuseable transit ships can bring new colonists every launch window, or less.

SpaceNut · 2005-02-07 21:14:15

Science and Exploration will continue all throughout and long after "settlement" is completed. We are still learning alot about the Earth, are we not?

This may be true but at what level or percentage are those that contribute and do science versus those that would be just settlers. So how much real science do we get for the small quantity of personel within this new structuring once all the hard initial work is done.

Martian Republic · 2005-02-07 21:44:22

Science and Exploration will continue all throughout and long after "settlement" is completed. We are still learning alot about the Earth, are we not?
This may be true but at what level or percentage are those that contribute and do science versus those that would be just settlers. So how much real science do we get for the small quantity of personel within this new structuring once all the hard initial work is done.

It would also depend on how big our settlement is too. If we had only a few hundred people then we may only have ten or fifteen doing science work, but if we had hundred thousand people, we may have several hundred people doing it and part time several thousand people doing it. so it would depend on how big and how fast our Mars colony get more people that would decide how much science we do on Mars.

Larry,

Ian Flint · 2005-02-07 21:56:40

What are you guys talking about?

Every early Martian settler will be a scientist. Do you think they'll all just sit around watching football and drinking beer after putting in 40 hrs/wk at their stupid job? No! This is the cream of the crop here. They'll use every spare minute to explore, invent, build, and learn about Mars. Even if some are stuck with non-scientific jobs, they will have scientific hobbies.

Martian Settlers Wanted, middle class 9 to 5 office workers that demand time off and good working conditions need not apply.

Martin_Tristar · 2005-02-08 00:57:42

Firstly,

The current country ( earth based ) governments shouldn't extend their governments off planet earth into deep space. For colonization of other worlds a world governing body must be used to represent humanity into space. The colonization and settlement of Mars for the human race not Amercians or Russians or Chinese or Europeans or Africans but for human beings from earth.

The country based governments should only be able to hold, develop, maintain or control orbiting platforms or ground installations within the earth-moon space region.

Yes, the first four - six teams are mainly scientists and support staff for building the first colony on Mars but the next people will be other inhabitants not primarily scientists but relating to agriculture, engineering, civic/admin, space logistics and mining / mineral processing to expand the settlement and the living environment for humans on the planet.

Dook · 2005-02-08 03:30:02

We currently have a world governing body, it's known as the United Nations and it is too indecisive (allowed the mass slaughter of Serbians, and genocide in Somalia and now Sudan).

Any voyage to mars would be a great expense for the country doing it so why would they then turn the governance of it over to the UN?

America is a land of many unified people. I'm sure we can find astronauts to represent America, Russia, China, Europe, and Africa.

Martin_Tristar · 2005-02-08 04:05:13

Sorry Dook,

But it isn't the same!!!!!!!!!

America is one country / nation on a planet of 200+ countries / nations on this planet called earth. Amercia doesn't act for the whole world they act for themselves primarily and that is what nations / country governments are here for , not for global representation.

As outlined, the Mars colony should be under a world body even if that body is created by the G-7 or Space 7 Nations or another world governing body but that body will speak on behalf of the human race outside the Earth-Moon Territory.

This would also provide the legal and structural framework for settlement, property rights and future growth in the space enterprises and growth in the permanent manned space sector, at the same time reduce conflicts between nations on earth.

It will also focus on mars and beyond by one group and the individual nations could focus on near earth and lunar activities, providing time for long term space infrastructure, education and other learning programs for space settlement be developed and a cross ethic, cultural group could be formed to strive for humanity.

Dook · 2005-02-08 06:10:24

America is just one country of many and while most of those countries have been around longer than we have they are accustomed to sitting on the sidelines watching us protect the world, give aid, and develop new technology, medicines, and genetic foods. And what do they do? They become jealous and criticize our achievements all the while watching American movies, wearing NFL jerseys, smoking American cigarettes, and singing American songs.

China has been around for thousands of years, why didn't they go to the moon before us? And you want communism to be a part of a mars colony?

Egypt has been as well. Why don't they give $350 million (a fraction of the $3 billion in aid they annually get from the US) to tsunami relief or act militarily to stop the genocide on their own continent? Yet you want to include them as well?

Most people around the world do not have the same work ethic that American's have. Our ancestors developed this country from nothing. Africa has more resources than the US yet what do they do? They would rather kill each other and destroy than work to build a nation. These are the people you want to help terraform mars?

America does act in it's own interests, why shouldn't it? But it also acts in the world's behalf. I believe that any American endeavor to terraform or colonize mars should include foreign scientists or astronauts if they pay their way but it should be an American led expedition. No other governing body should ever be in charge of an American.

Grypd · 2005-02-08 07:35:40

America is just one country of many and while most of those countries have been around longer than we have they are accustomed to sitting on the sidelines watching us protect the world, give aid, and develop new technology, medicines, and genetic foods. And what do they do? They become jealous and criticize our achievements all the while watching American movies, wearing NFL jerseys, smoking American cigarettes, and singing American songs.
China has been around for thousands of years, why didn't they go to the moon before us? And you want communism to be a part of a mars colony?
Egypt has been as well. Why don't they give $350 million (a fraction of the $3 billion in aid they annually get from the US) to tsunami relief or act militarily to stop the genocide on their own continent? Yet you want to include them as well?
Most people around the world do not have the same work ethic that American's have. Our ancestors developed this country from nothing. Africa has more resources than the US yet what do they do? They would rather kill each other and destroy than work to build a nation. These are the people you want to help terraform mars?
America does act in it's own interests, why shouldn't it? But it also acts in the world's behalf. I believe that any American endeavor to terraform or colonize mars should include foreign scientists or astronauts if they pay their way but it should be an American led expedition. No other governing body should ever be in charge of an American.

Dook, The UN is only as strong as it has been allowed to be and that has often due to political maeuvering resulted in weakness. As the UN was designed to be a primarily diplomatic resolution maker and has only the right to call for forces from its members nations when it has a resolution

So it is designed never to operate on its own and as it has no standing UN army it really cannot project force anywhere. The debacle that was Serbia and is the Sudan are really the faults of the permanent members of the security council.

But do I want to see a UN with its own army and ability to operate on its own, hardly.

But for space I agree Dook we will find it is nation states and corporations linked to them that will develop the infrastructure and secure control of space. We can only hope that it will develop peacefully as there really is enough to share.

Dook · 2005-02-08 09:08:21

Sure, it's not the UN's fault for anything. After all, they don't have a resolution for God sakes so what can they do? Somebody must have misplaced that box of resolutions. Yes, maybe that's why the UN is so impotent.

And lets not actually blame the government of Sudan for supporting the murder of hundreds of thousands when we all surely know it's the security councils fault. Everything is their fault, don't you know?

The UN's main concern is keeping the USA from becoming too powerful when it should be to defend the poor and helpless.

BWhite · 2005-02-08 09:29:20

This thread captures the catch-22 or dilemma of space settlement.

Whether or not national governments should colonize Mars, in my opinion diverse nation-states are at a significant disadvantage as maintaining political control over a colony million of miles away will be awfully difficult.

Cut off supplies? Well okay. If China cut off the supply chain to its Mars colony, why couldn't India or the EU or the USA simply adopt that colony and start sending supplies? Corporate colonies might routinely re-negotiate with their Terran sponsors, which undermines the incentive to make that initial $100 billion investment.

Now, if colonies are founded by civilizations (or religions!) rather than nation-states, the loyalty of the colony to its Terran founders will be of a different character. The nature of Terran "control" over a religious colony will be of a very different character than Terran control over a nationalism inspired colony.

Cobra Commander · 2005-02-08 09:36:21

Now, if colonies are founded by civilizations (or religions!) rather than nation-states, the loyalty of the colony to its Terran founders will be of a different character. The nature of Terran "control" over a religious colony will be of a very different character than Terran control over a nationalism inspired colony.

On this we are in complete agreement. Taken further, nation-states can use this to their benefit, semi-independent proxy colonization has benefits if the prime motivator is to expand a culture rather than a political entity.

Rxke · 2005-02-08 09:56:51

I just copied Cindy's sig, heehee!

BWhite · 2005-02-08 10:18:25

Now, if colonies are founded by civilizations (or religions!) rather than nation-states, the loyalty of the colony to its Terran founders will be of a different character. The nature of Terran "control" over a religious colony will be of a very different character than Terran control over a nationalism inspired colony.
On this we are in complete agreement. Taken further, nation-states can use this to their benefit, semi-independent proxy colonization has benefits if the prime motivator is to expand a culture rather than a political entity.

And of such things, many stories can be told. . .

Ian Flint · 2005-02-08 10:23:11

Like yours? :;):

Martin_Tristar · 2005-02-08 18:33:04

One of the chief destroyers of the UN is America, because they won't work with the UN they want to be their way always. I can see the need of independence but it can go a bit too far.

We are going into space to improve humanity, If spacefaring organizations ( a loose term for all individuals, corporates, and governments that act or will act in space) don't have some overriding framework then we have major issues in space. The first group that gets to critical mass will then have a tactical advantage over the rest of the groups.

Currently look at the US militarily on earth has an advantage and doesn't give that critical mass advantage to other countries the same will apply in space for any group that get there first, they will hold that advantage and may use it to slow or hamper growth with other groups.

That is why its very important to have a global third party involved with colonization settlement and other major space activities past the lunar territorial boundaries.

RobS · 2005-02-08 23:46:09

No one need laud or fear the U.N. where Mars is concerned. The international community would not turn Mars over to the U.N; they'd create a special agency for it, like WHO, IMF, UNICEF, and about a thousand other international agencies. Each of these agencies has its own membership, voting rules, dues, etc. In the case of the IMF, a country has as many votes as the percent of its budget that country provides.

I suspect if there were any internationalization of the Mars effort there would be a separate international agency, and most likely countries would vote based on the amount they paid. The US would pay the most and thus have the most votes.

Another possible model would be a public corporation, into which nations, corporations, even individuals could pay to be members, and vote based on their contribution. This might diversify the membership base and possibly result in better cost controls (companies don't want their money wasted).

However Mars is settled, whoever pays will run the place. Autonomy--in the sense of local day to day control--will be necesssary because of the distance, but the big decisions will depend on the entities paying.

-- RobS

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#1 2005-02-06 10:18:58

Re: Article about colonizing Mars - Does someone remember this?

#2 2005-02-06 10:56:47

Re: Article about colonizing Mars - Does someone remember this?

#3 2005-02-06 13:32:20

Re: Article about colonizing Mars - Does someone remember this?

#4 2005-02-06 15:33:02

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#5 2005-02-06 22:29:20

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#6 2005-02-07 04:37:23

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#7 2005-02-07 05:02:50

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