New Mars Forums

Official discussion forum of The Mars Society and MarsNews.com

You are not logged in.

Announcement

Announcement: We've recently made changes to our user database and have removed inactive and spam users. If you can not login, please re-register.

#1 2019-01-30 14:46:30

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,810
Website

My Hacienda On Mars

This was requested by tahanson43206. His request in "Not So Free Chat"...

The intention is to stimulate imagination and discussion of what each contributor would specify for their personal economic estate on Mars, if they had unlimited funds and the ability to bypass regulations on Earth.

Wikipedia definition of Hacienda

An hacienda (UK: /ˌhæsiˈɛndə/ or US: /ˌhɑːsiˈɛndə/; Spanish: [aˈθjenda] or [aˈsjenda]), in the colonies of the Spanish Empire, is an estate (or finca), similar in form to a Roman villa. Some haciendas were plantations, mines or factories. Many haciendas combined these activities. The word is derived from the Spanish word "hacer" or "haciendo", which means: to make or be making, respectively; and were largely business enterprises consisting of various money making ventures including raising farm animals and maintaining orchards.

The term hacienda is imprecise, but usually refers to landed estates of significant size. Smaller holdings were termed estancias or ranchos that were owned almost exclusively by Spaniards and criollos and in rare cases by mixed-race individuals.[1] In Argentina, the term estancia is used for large estates that in Mexico would be termed haciendas. In recent decades, the term has been used in the United States to refer to an architectural style associated with the earlier estate manor houses.

First I would like to point out that under current law, no country has jurisdiction on Mars. The UN treaty called Outer Space Treaty of 1967 has been ratified by most countries of the world, including all spacefaring countries. Details...
350px-Outer_Space_Treaty_parties.svg.png
Green=parties. Yellow=Signatories. Red=Non-parties.

This means that under international law, Mars is international waters. So no country owns any part of Mars, or has any say over what happens there. If someone builds anything on Mars, if they claim to be part of a country (like registration of a ship) then laws of that country hold over that one facility. But step one inch beyond the airlock door, and you're in international waters again. If you don't claim registry of any country, then your facility will not be held accountable to any country or any nation's laws. That means the owner is literally king. Of course that also means if you get in trouble, no country will come to your defence. And again, one inch outside your airlock door, or one millimetre outside your facility walls, it's international waters again.

Plot0002 as defined as Law and order seat of power

Edit 9-4-19
Sagan city timeline of 2030 or 6 years after first landing.

Offline

#2 2019-01-30 15:55:15

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,810
Website

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

I have had fantasies about this. What if I could build some of my inventions, build a company to sell them and earn billions. Like Elon Musk. Then build a villa on Mars.

Start with a small reusable spacecraft, with a lifting body like DreamChaser, sized for 4 astronauts including pilot, and no cargo hold at all. Give it an NDS hatch (NASA Docking System), the new hatch used by Orion, Starliner, or crew Dragon. Propulsion would start with a jet engine using Jet A-1 fuel (common jet fuel outside USA, Russia, or CIS states), built similar to the J-58 engine used by SR-71 blackbird but with full bypass so it could operate as a pure RAM jet. That should allow take-off and landing under jet power, and flight at high altitude up to mach 6. Heat shield with black tiles on the belly, reinforced carbon-carbon nose cap, but the white areas on the back would be covered in DurAFRSI, the new thermal blanket developed by NASA Ames but developed too late to be installed on Shuttle. Windshield made of ALON (alumino-oxynitride), which can handle higher temperatures than the windshield of Shuttle, and will not experience pitting from micrometeoroids. Landing gear made of aircraft grade titanium alloy, but with fibre reinforcement embedded within the alloy. Fibres would be placed in the mould first, then molten metal poured over them. After ensuring all bubbles are gone, chill the mould with water to harden. If fibres are graphite fibre then this moulding process has to be done without oxygen, because the heat of molten titanium alloy would ignite carbon. Or it could be done with Nextel fibres, which are synthetic ceramic fibres. Nextel 440 is used in DurAFRSI thermal blankets. Nextel isn't as strong as graphite fibre, but it isn't flammable so moulding could be done in normal air. This would be a composite material, but instead of epoxy as the matrix to hold fibres, use titanium alloy. This should allow the pipe of landing gear to be thinner; it wouldn't balloon out on axial impact compression when the wheels hit pavement. And longitudinal fibres would make the pipe stiffer, preventing bending. Again the idea is to make the metal thinner and hence lighter. I call this material "tritanium", inspired by Star Trek. Second engine would be a nuclear SCRAM jet, which requires minimum mach 5 to start the engine. Nuclear jet engine would use minimum critical mass of Americium-242m which is an isotope with the smallest critical mass. So the jet engine reactor core would be the size of a navel orange. Use heat sink fins coated with the same glaze as black tiles on Shuttle, designed to reject heat in a high speed, high altitude air stream. Those fins would be inside the SCRAM jet engine. Third engine would be NTR (Nuclear Thermal Rocket) for the final push to orbit. Propellant would be steam distilled water. RCS thrusters would use liquid methane and liquid oxygen. Life support using compressed gas oxygen, and lithium hydroxide; the same life support as Mercury/Gemini/Apollo/Skylab/Shuttle. You don't need long-term life support for a shuttle craft. This small shuttle craft would be designed to take-off/land from an airport that normally services small private aircraft like Cessna or Piper Cub. On landing, would that require a parachute to stop before the end of the runway?

Next vehicle would be a "warp ring". Alcubierre/White drive, with a nuclear fusion reactor using deuterium fuel. The reactor would require a small amount of tritium to start, which is a waste product from heavy water reactors on Earth. Once the fusion reactor starts, it produces tritium and helium-3 as byproducts of the deuterium-deuterium fusion reaction. Most energy comes from deuterium-tritium and deuterium-helium3 reactions, so secondary reactions are the primary energy source. When the reactor shuts-down, some tritium would be preserved to restart later. So the reactor would use pure deuterium as fuel, it would only need tritium to "prime" the first start-up. Alcubierre drive (energy optimized by Dr Sonny White) would propel the shuttle craft from Earth orbit to Mars orbit at the speed of light: 4 to 20 minutes. Then the shuttle craft would have special features to enter Mars atmosphere and land. I'm thinking of a magnetic parachute to slow sufficiently in Mars thin atmosphere, then a parafoil to glide to a runway, then vertical landing rockets for the final touch-down. The parafoil would give it forward momentum, so it would land on a runway like an aircraft. Touch-down rockets would also use liquid methane / LOX.

My Villa (Hacienda):

On the shores of the frozen pack ice, in Cerberus Fossae, an area of Elysium Planitia. 5° north of the equator. Frozen ice that the European Space Agency estimates has about as much frozen water as all the Great Lakes combined, or the entire North Sea. I would build the facility into the side of a hill. Construct using cut-and-cover. That is dig out the side of a hill, construct the building, then drive a mini-track loader with dozer blade up the hill to push Mars dirt down onto the roof. Mini-track loader: can you say "Bobcat"? Electric with lithium-ion batteries. Rooms would have windows looking out onto the surface of Mars, with a horizontal reinforced concrete overhang cantilevered above each window, and "lip" at the end of each overhang. Each overhang would have more Mars dirt piled on top as radiation shielding. Windows made of 2 panes of thick ALON, with the gap filled with mineral oil as clear as water. Windows for radiation "hot cells" were built that way in the 1950s, but with strong glass.

The facility would have a large dining room, large kitchen, and several bedrooms. Each bedroom would have its own ensuite bathroom. One large bedroom would be reserved as mine, the master bedroom. The facility could be rented to scientists (eg NASA scientists) for a rather large fee, including transport to/from the Red Planet. It would have multiple life support systems, with mix-and-match components. Water electrolysis, regenerable CO2 sorbent, urine processing assembly, water processing assembly, Sabatier reactor; all like ISS. It would also have direct CO2 electrolysis, which could augment the first system to improve recycling efficiency. Plus water harvesting from the frozen lake. Plus CO2 harvesting from Mars atmosphere. Plus stored O2. Plus stored whole air. Plus greenhouses. Plus emergency oxygen candles.

Greenhouses would have roof and windows made of tempered glass, not ALON. Because ALON is so difficult to make, and greenhouses would require so much. Greenhouses would grow food to sustain a full complement indefinitely. The greenhouse would also be primary oxygen and water recycling. Using ambient light, so it wouldn't use any power for artificial light. It would have LED lights as emergency backup during a dust storm. However, power to do that means all industrial activities would have to be shut down. Greenhouses for my villa would grow 100% vegan food. Livestock require too much fodder, and a hard-wall barn with more oxygen and sewage recycling. It's just not practical to raise livestock on Mars until the economy becomes very rich.

It would also harvest resources. Mine hematite concretions for iron ore, smelt steel. Harvest anorthite and/or bytownite from regolith, smelt for aluminum. Harvest white sand, melt for glass. Find a deposit of potash under the dried-up ocean basin, harvest for potassium fertilizer for the greenhouses.

Thorium is not expected in a low-lying area such as that. It has been mapped by MGS, it's only in dry hills. A remote mine using autonomous rovers would mine thorium ore, do initial ore processing on-site, then transport back to the villa. The villa would refine thorium to make reactor fuel rods to fuel reactors that run the facility.

My villa would also have a pressurized hanger capable of holding the spacecraft, so it could be maintained/repaired. And a garage for Mars rovers. It would have labs for visiting scientists. And communication with Earth using quantum entanglement. That means instantaneous communication, not limited to the speed of light. Wifi/LTE repeaters throughout the villa would service laptops and smartphones.

My villa would build a warehouse and storage tanks. The warehouse would be filled with enough equipment to build life support sufficient for 100 settlers, as well as habitats for them all. It would also be filled with enough food to feed 100 settlers for at least 26 months, the time requires for a supply ship from Earth. So I would be the Lowes/Home Depot of Mars, as well as the grocery store.

One special exclusive feature would be another bedroom. Build high on a hill overlooking the landscape. With a dome made of a single cast of ALON, and a second dome over that also made of ALON. The two domes would appear as one, with the gap filled with mineral oil. The floor would be the natural bedrock of the hilltop. A stairway from the rest of the villa would be built as a pressure tunnel, with a pressure-tight door to the villa, and a pressure-tight trap door into the floor of the dome. The stairway could act as an airlock. The dome bedroom would have a big round bed in the centre, giving the bed 360° view of the surrounding landscape for kilometres in every direction. Some place I could take a beautiful sweet young honey for an exclusive get-away. She would be the only woman on the planet, I the only man. Literally. For that one weekend. We could watch a baby blue sunset in a salmon pink sky. While lying naked in each other's arms.

Offline

#3 2019-01-30 15:56:22

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,810
Website

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

I should write a book.

Offline

#4 2019-01-30 18:00:25

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,473

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

tahanson43206 wrote:

For SpaceNut ...

Would you be willing to open a new topic with the (suggested) name of MyHaciendaOnMars?

The word Hacienda did not show up when I ran a search of the Forum.

The intention is to stimulate imagination and discussion of what each contributor would specify for their personal economic estate on Mars, if they had unlimited funds and the ability to bypass regulations on Earth.

I recognize that the word has significant negative connotation on Earth, due to the way Europeans behaved in times past, but the original meaning (as reported by Wikipedia) seems innocent enough. 

(th)

Thanks RobertDyck for fore filling the request.

The last not so innocent aspect did not take into account occupied lands, culture that was alien to those that came...

Mars will not have that problem but will need to operate like the first post from RobertDyck has indicated.

I will post up the outer space topics which covers much of the previous ideas on what can or can not be done on any heavenly body.

Your post RobertDyck was excellent for the dreams of mars....

Offline

#6 2019-01-30 19:26:56

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 1,203

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Thanks to RobertDyck for creating this topic.  I hope it lives up to the example you have provided.

SpaceNut, thanks for your endorsement and for the links to previous discussions that relate to this topic.

I was curious about the religion thread in 2004, and note that it seemed to maintain a civil style until it swung over to (jumped over to) politics.

RobertDyck, there was too much in your opening vision to comment upon, but I read carefully until I found what I was specifically looking for:

Thorium is not expected in a low-lying area such as that. It has been mapped by MGS, it's only in dry hills. A remote mine using autonomous rovers would mine thorium ore, do initial ore processing on-site, then transport back to the villa. The villa would refine thorium to make reactor fuel rods to fuel reactors that run the facility.

I too am of the view that a steady supply of power must be at the heart of a Hacienda, and I would be favorably inclined to build and maintain at least one fission device even if fusion becomes practical on a small scale in future.  Solar power has been discussed at great length here in the forum, and I agree that it is likely to be a significant provider of power on Mars, for single households and for large communities, but the current blast of cold air in the US reminded me forcibly of the relentless cold that will permeate life on Mars.  Relying only on solar power (anywhere let alone Mars) seems to me unduly risky.

I am hoping my acquaintance who served a year in Antarctica will provide links to others who have served there, because (it seems likely) their collective experience should prove useful for planning successful communities on Mars.

In the mean time, if anyone who reads this topic knows people who have served in Antarctica, or any of the other remote locations where governments or corporations maintain work forces, please consider inviting them to comment upon the Mars environment from their perspective.

(th)

Offline

#7 2019-01-30 19:52:27

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,068

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

I don't think your reading of the OST is correct.

My reading is:

(a) The Treaty signatories are laying claim to the whole of Mars (in the same way that that the signatories to the Antarctic Treaty laid claim to the whole of Antartica).

(b) The Treaty requires the signatories to ensure that they or anyone coming under their jurisdiction obeys the terms of the treaty.

(c) Anyone who isn't a signatory of the  Treaty has no rights under the treaty ie no rights to Mars.

The idea that the OST signatories are going to give a free pass to anyone not covered by the Treaty to occupy Mars seems to me naive.



RobertDyck wrote:

This was requested by tahanson43206. His request in "Not So Free Chat"...

The intention is to stimulate imagination and discussion of what each contributor would specify for their personal economic estate on Mars, if they had unlimited funds and the ability to bypass regulations on Earth.

Wikipedia definition of Hacienda

An hacienda (UK: /ˌhæsiˈɛndə/ or US: /ˌhɑːsiˈɛndə/; Spanish: [aˈθjenda] or [aˈsjenda]), in the colonies of the Spanish Empire, is an estate (or finca), similar in form to a Roman villa. Some haciendas were plantations, mines or factories. Many haciendas combined these activities. The word is derived from the Spanish word "hacer" or "haciendo", which means: to make or be making, respectively; and were largely business enterprises consisting of various money making ventures including raising farm animals and maintaining orchards.

The term hacienda is imprecise, but usually refers to landed estates of significant size. Smaller holdings were termed estancias or ranchos that were owned almost exclusively by Spaniards and criollos and in rare cases by mixed-race individuals.[1] In Argentina, the term estancia is used for large estates that in Mexico would be termed haciendas. In recent decades, the term has been used in the United States to refer to an architectural style associated with the earlier estate manor houses.

First I would like to point out that under current law, no country has jurisdiction on Mars. The UN treaty called Outer Space Treaty of 1967 has been ratified by most countries of the world, including all spacefaring countries. Details...
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ … es.svg.png
Green=parties. Yellow=Signatories. Red=Non-parties.

This means that under international law, Mars is international waters. So no country owns any part of Mars, or has any say over what happens there. If someone builds anything on Mars, if they claim to be part of a country (like registration of a ship) then laws of that country hold over that one facility. But step one inch beyond the airlock door, and you're in international waters again. If you don't claim registry of any country, then your facility will not be held accountable to any country or any nation's laws. That means the owner is literally king. Of course that also means if you get in trouble, no country will come to your defence. And again, one inch outside your airlock door, or one millimetre outside your facility walls, it's international waters again.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

Offline

#8 2019-01-30 21:45:21

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,810
Website

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

UN website: Outer Space Treaty (as a web page), Outer Space Treaty (as a PDF document)

Article I
...
Outer space, including the Moon and other celestial bodies, shall be free for exploration and use by all States without discrimination of any kind, on a basis of equality and in accordance with international law, and there shall be free access to all areas of celestial bodies.
...

That makes "international law" apply. It's effectively international waters.

Article IV

States Parties to the Treaty undertake not to place in orbit around the Earth any objects carrying nuclear weapons or any other kinds of weapons of mass destruction, install such weapons on celestial bodies, or station such weapons in outer space in any other manner.

The Moon and other celestial bodies shall be used by all States Parties to the Treaty exclusively for peaceful purposes. The establishment of military bases, installations and fortifications, the testing of any type of weapons and the conduct of military manoeuvres on celestial bodies shall be forbidden. The use of military personnel for scientific research or for any other peaceful purposes shall not be prohibited. The use of any equipment or facility necessary for peaceful exploration of the Moon and other celestial bodies shall also not be prohibited.

That means no weapons of mass destruction. Doesn't say anything about conventional weapons.

Article VI

States Parties to the Treaty shall bear international responsibility for national activities in outer space, including the Moon and other celestial bodies, whether such activities are carried on by governmental agencies or by non-governmental entities, and for assuring that national activities are carried out in conformity with the provisions set forth in the present Treaty. The activities of non-governmental entities in outer space, including the Moon and other celestial bodies, shall require authorization and continuing supervision by the appropriate State Party to the Treaty. When activities are carried on in outer space, including the Moon and other celestial bodies, by an international organization, responsibility for compliance with this Treaty shall be borne both by the international organization and by the States Parties to the Treaty participating in such organization.

That means if you're from the United States, it doesn't matter that your activities and your facility are entirely private property; the United States would still hold authority over your hacienda. If you're from Mexico, then Mexico would hold authority. If you're from Spain, then Spain would hold authority. By choice of the word "Hacienda" I assume tahanson43206 is from a Spanish speaking country. However, notice the loop-hole. If your activities are entirely from a country that is a non-Party to the treaty, then no nation has "responsibility". Your organization would still be held responsible, but what does that mean? You can't possess nuclear weapons or other weapons of mass destruction. Do you really want that anyway?

Article VIII

A State Party to the Treaty on whose registry an object launched into outer space is carried shall retain jurisdiction and control over such object, and over any personnel thereof, while in outer space or on a celestial body. Ownership of objects launched into outer space, including objects landed or constructed on a celestial body, and of their component parts, is not affected by their presence in outer space or on a celestial body or by their return to the Earth. Such objects or component parts found beyond the limits of the State Party to the Treaty on whose registry they are carried shall be returned to that State Party, which shall, upon request, furnish identifying data prior to their return.

There's that registry thing.

Article XI

In order to promote international cooperation in the peaceful exploration and use of outer space, States Parties to the Treaty conducting activities in outer space, including the Moon and other celestial bodies, agree to inform the Secretary-General of the United Nations as well as the public and the international scientific community, to the greatest extent feasible and practicable, of the nature, conduct, locations and results of such activities. On receiving the said information, the Secretary-General of the United Nations should be prepared to disseminate it immediately and effectively.

It can't be secret.

Article XII

All stations, installations, equipment and space vehicles on the Moon and other celestial bodies shall be open to representatives of other States Parties to the Treaty on a basis of reciprocity. Such representatives shall give reasonable advance notice of a projected visit, in order that appropriate consultations may be held and that maximum precautions may be taken to assure safety and to avoid interference with normal operations in the facility to be visited.

Any country can send government inspectors to traipse through your hacienda.

A. Declaration of Legal Principles Governing the Activities of States in the Exploration and Use of Outer Space

5. States bear international responsibility for national activities in outer space, whether carried on by governmental agencies or by non-governmental entities, and for assuring that national activities are carried on in conformity with the principles set forth in the present Declaration. The activities of non-governmental entities in outer space shall require authorization and continuing supervision by the State concerned. When activities are carried on in outer space by an international organization, responsibility for compliance with the principles set forth in this Declaration shall be borne by the international organization and by the States participating in it.

So require authorization from whatever country you're registered with. And that country will supervise you.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2019-01-31 14:04:59)

Offline

#9 2019-01-31 04:19:47

Terraformer
Member
From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,129
Website

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Do you want me to post about a hypothetical estate on Mars, or about the estate I really want... on Ceres?

My Cererean estate would begin with a space elevator. It would be equatorial of course, both for the elevator and the access to sunlight. Its primary economic purpose would be volatiles mining; Ceres has lots of water, as well as abundant carbon and nitrogen, and it should be able to export it very cheaply to the inner solar system using tethers and solar electric propulsion. If we can get a tonne of water for every square metre mined, and mined a square kilometre every year, that would provide a million tonnes of water, the majority of which would reach the depots at EML1. How much would a million tonnes of water be worth in the mid-future? Right now a tonne of water in space would cost perhaps $2 million to launch. If it sells for $1000/tonne, Ceres can make a billion dollars a year from just water.

Around the space elevator, using the ground that's been mined and flattened, I would have minimal paraterraforming. 25-50mb atmosphere, with a genetically engineered forest inside. Possibly there'd be a coil wrapped around the equator (only 3000km long!) to give Ceres a decent magnetic field for radiation protection. The paraterraformed area would provide sunlight based life support, including food and other organic feedstocks. Over time, I would hope to extend this around the entire equator, and then expand towards the poles until the entire planet is covered. Hopefully there'd be some ponds supporting aquatic life, though I don't know how water would behave in such a low gravity environment. I do like fish, though.

Within this zone, close to the elevator, I would have a buried centrifuge that would go almost vertically downward, sloped to ensure that the net acceleration is perpendicular to the floor. Living in the low gravity is for weekend retreats (I'd include cabins), not everyday life. Inside my house in the centrifuge I'd have, in addition to the usual suite of en-suite bedrooms and kitchens, a library, a chapel, and a great hall. The workshop would be kept on the surface.

In my garage on the surface, I think I'd include a shuttle - normal transport would be via elevator, but sometimes you need to get up there quickly. The low  gravity and escape velocity makes building a reusable shuttle trivial, but I'd want it to be capable of landing on at least Luna as well. Up above, docked to the other end of the tether, would be my ship the Dragonfyre, with a hangar big enough to fit a few shuttles and utility vehicles.

Over time, as my reach extended over the planet, I would install a railway running around the equator, and later to the poles. It should be capable of going around the world in one (27hr) Cererean 'day' (3 rotations/day).


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

Offline

#10 2019-01-31 09:48:09

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 1,203

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For RobertDyck

   Thanks for the details of the Outer Space Treaty ... My take-away is that the bureaucracy on Earth is going to swell as humans expand into space!

   My ancestors came from Europe but not Spain.  I've been following the Magellan expedition for the past two years, and the word came to mind.

   For me, it connotes extravagant wealth (as it is used today in Real Estate), and the concept of personal ownership of land, and economic activity.

For Terraformer ...

   Adapting this thread to Ceres is consistent with your long term interests in this Forum, and it is also (potentially) useful for those who might imagine control and development of other Solar System objects.  The conditions you will face (and hopefully solve) will be similar (if not identical) to those to be faced on the Moon of Earth, and the moons of other planets.

   What I'm hoping this topic delivers is in-depth, thoughtful anticipation of market needs which forward looking entrepreneurs can undertake to supply.

   Rather than inventing what you need yourself, I am hoping you will imagine what it is, and let the market come up with solutions.

Finally, to all who will participate in this topic ... please concentrate on your own vision and do not expend energy criticizing what others have imagined, or described.   This forum includes members with credentials to certify that concepts are possible, or that laws of physics rule in ways that shape what can be done in the real universe, so you have those resources to help if you want feedback.  Otherwise, as RobertDyck has shown, your imagination is your only limit.

(th)

Offline

#11 2019-01-31 10:29:40

Terraformer
Member
From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,129
Website

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Well, I would stick with something similar on Mars, minus the centrifuge and space elevator. A minimally paraterraformed forest area, containing a compound - pressurised gardens (I forgot to add that bit!); a big house with a library, chapel, and great hall; a hangar for my shuttle; a railway around the estate... of course on Mars flying will be a lot harder than on Ceres.

Adding to my above post, I would include some areas within the wider paraterraformed envelope that would be shirtsleeve environments where land (and sky) animals can thrive. Which may contain cabins for weekend retreats.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

Offline

#12 2019-01-31 16:57:30

JoshNH4H
Moderator
From: Pullman, WA
Registered: 2007-07-15
Posts: 2,513
Website

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Hey all,

Seems to me that this topic is basically similar to what we were talking about in the thread Build Your Own with a Martian spin rather than an asteroidal one.  Here's what I wrote in the other thread (the settlement is built at the end of a tether attached to a fast-rotating asteroid):

I wrote:

The habitable volume is circular in shape, and covered in a clear dome.  The circle is 2 km across and the surface is mostly freshwater, but shallow, perhaps 10-30 m thick on average.  Perhaps 20% of the area is composed of islands, which are rocky and very steep (taller than they are wide).  People live in cottages made from rock and brick and canvas perched upon outcroppings of rock, as well as smaller boats which moor to the islands or travel around from one to another, or float on the water.  People can travel up and down the islands either by hiking/climbing or by taking little gondola trams.  To get between islands you can either take a boat or a zipline, or swim I suppose.  The climate is mild, averaging 20 C, with low wind. 

Mirrors reflect sunlight into the habitation, with a lengthy sunset and a 30 hour day/night cycle.  Access to the vacuum outside is via ports which stick up like little islands from the water. 

There's some fish in the water and small mammals living on the islands.  No birds, though.  I hate birds lol

Much of what people eat is fish coming from the water. There's also some farm-barges where food is grown, which typically dock around the edge of the habitable volume.

I think on Mars I would stick to a similar template, with the habitation built into a smallish crater, ideally one near the equator with a good view. 

As far as economic activities go, Mars has no native populations to enslave and oppress, so economic activities have to be done more virtuously than the Spanish did them.  On Mars, this means a lot of mining and manufacturing, most done by robots.  Included in manufacturing is agrifacturing (agriculture + manufacturing, ie mechanized agriculture, a term that I think ought to be used instead of "factory farming").  I think ideally my settlement would be in the spacelaunch/rocketbuilding business (Rocketeering seems like a cool name), even though probably on Mars spacelaunch will mostly be done via space elevator.


-Josh

Offline

#13 2019-01-31 17:57:19

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,473

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Architecting Mars; Flag & Footprints vs. Science Field Station

Not Me no 30 days or flyby stell go for it even if It would mean to settle for a One way ticket for one where the landing site has been preloaded with what I would need to dig in like a Tick....No ship left in orbit, not mav for a return if need be cobble one from the lander remains if I must return. Other wise recycle everything digging into the ground to start a safe haven when needed.

Reuse the landers batteries with freshly installed fan solar panels from ATK..Send plenty of seeds, water and leave the exploring for later as you get sufficient to sustain your life. Connect all landers and tunnels and anything else used for the garden and lifes living spaces to limit using up precious air on excursions not needed until you have a surplus to make use of.

Edit:
Plot0003 Toehold a minimal landing that will not give up...

Toeholds come in the form of mission one, oneway of which we have a number of topics in the human folder.

The topic of toehold was a carry over from the years when the red colony website forum was operational but the got crashed and infected for the forums and still have not come up functional as of yet.


Edit: 9/1/19
Ex Construction of Structures for expanding man's presence on Mars

Normally a Toehold is around a dozen crew at best but we will assume that this is a BFR first launched crew of 100 with the Space x 2 cargo vehicles with a probable 300 metric ton to 400 at best. All landing within the 1 km square property plot as identified.

Thoughts of a second group of ships to come would land on adjacent plots and continue to build outward a city with not all members of the first group leaving on a volunteering basis to stay.

Since its a first mission I think they are going with 10 to 12 for a crew count rather than a full boat.
Crewman size and mass affects mission to mars

Edit: 9/3/19
More images and means to building structures
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 48#p149448
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 14#p155614

Louis post Sagan city growth with second landing

Planning of each Plot requires:

"Free" service has no meaning in the context of a Mars settlement.  There is no "free" air.  There is no "free" water.  There is no "free" power.   There is no "free" medical care.  Each Hacienda is truly self sufficient.

Edit: 9/11/19
Redundanct is the key to survival and the initial work for business proposals will be not different to start.
Priority list:
Oxygen
water
Food
waste removal and recovery or recycling
power
new shelters and structures to be built by priority

Offline

#14 2019-02-01 19:38:57

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,473

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Which brings me to the $64,000 dollar question.... Robert Zubrin started the Mars Society nearly two decades ago with the dream of creating a human settlement on the Red Planet.

What is Zubrin's dream for Mars?

From 1999 For the Love of Mars and from2010 Mars or Bust

How To Colonize Mars w/ Dr. Robert Zubrin - YouTube

Are we helping to make that dream possible?

We are talking about "The Case for Mars".

This dream has bitten a few but to this day we are still earth bound...with many plans with what was available at the time used to make it come true or at least make it look that way and even with future parts not yet made we still dream of humans on mars one day.

Offline

#15 2019-02-03 16:21:23

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,473

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

So do we go much like the ancestors did to spread out across the west, while others want to setup hotel Sagan with all the furnishings.

I am sure the first visits will be more like the first but in time we will have gotten to the later when cash flows hot and in bundles so large that they look like sky scapers when piled up.

Edit:
Next post contains the tracking of discussion by members for post counter...

Offline

#16 2019-02-10 09:40:42

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 1,203

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

The Hacienda Topic created by RobertDyck has potential for growth.

As of 2019/02/10 (Earth) 0034/23/628 (Mars)

Members have created posts as shown below:

#01 RobertDyck
#02 RobertDyck
#03 RobertDyck
#08 RobertDyck

#04 SpaceNut
#05 SpaceNut
#13 SpaceNut
#14 SpaceNut
#15 SpaceNut

#06 Tahanson43206
#10 Tahanson43206

#07 Louis

#09 Terraformer
#11 Terraformer

#12 JoshNH4H

Meanwhile, an (to me) amazing number of folks have registered as members of the NewMars forum, but chosen not to post a message.

For example, 23 people are registered in this month alone, but only RayRobertson has posted a message.

My guess is that the pool of regular posters is intimidating to new members.  That's just a guess, but it is certainly what I experienced.

The Hacienda topic created by RobertDyck offers a venue for (just about) everyone to take part on development of a virtual community with a focus on Mars.

What I am proposing is that new members create a post in the topic My Hacienda On Mars.

That post would then become a fixed element in the database maintained by the NewMars forum.

According to the rules of the forum, that post is OWNED by the creator.  It can only be deleted by one of the Administrators, and that only occurs when unacceptable behavior occurs.  Since (I am guessing again) everyone who signed up for the forum and is not already banned is likely to want to be a good citizen in this new environment, it seems unlikely the Administrators will find it necessary to disturb posts.

Each post can be easily located by the creator, using search strings unique to the creator.

An example of how this works is the fixed post I've been updating as I follow Mars around the Sun.

To see that post, enter the search string shown below (remove the spaces inside the terms)

S e a r c h t e r m : and : T o d a y O n M a r s

Enter the author field as: tahanson43206

Select Post

You will be able to see the updated status of the calendar proposed for business application on Mars, supported by the French web site shown in the post.

For the Hacienda fixed post, each creator can choose a combination of search arguments that the Forum Search software will find uniquely.

The goal here would be for each participant to define the elements of a home/business on Mars.

Going forward, a great variety of economic and cultural needs of a new society on Mars would be identified.

For example, an entire Hacienda could be devoted to supplying tomatoes.

Other economic needs to be met might include: plumbing, air conditioning, electrical systems, computer support, robot systems support ...

The opportunities to define a niche for economic activity are as diverse as can be seen on Earth.

The home itself can be as ambitious as shown by RobertDyck, or as practical as shown by SpaceNut.

Please note that the intent here is NOT to create a huge volume of traffic on the forum, because the primary posters are challenging enough to follow as it is.

Instead, I invite newly registered members to create a post in the My Hacienda topic, and then update it over time, using the Edit feature.

Each member can improve the fixed post over months and years, adding or changing features as inspired by new technology or other discoveries.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2019-02-16 07:36:59)

Offline

#17 2019-02-10 12:55:41

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,473

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Offline

#18 2019-02-10 18:23:35

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,473

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

RobertDyck as well has some topics for what a home would be on mars.

What we need to go to Mars - short term projects

Civility Corporate Government

A Virtual Field Trip to Mars

Lockheed Martin mission to Mars orbit

Other aspect is sustainability in life support requirements for a grow house, greenhouse, crops and many more ways to make sure we feed ourselves.

Offline

#19 2019-02-11 09:18:58

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 1,203

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

As a follow up to Post #16 above, I would like to invite members who have registered in the Month of February (Earth Calendar) to join the Hacienda Topic.

Please read Post #16 above for details:

This invitation is extended to:

TeresaHall (Posted 2019/01/31)
JensKreitm (Registered 2019/01/31)
ChanteMcda
StefanCraw
katherin56
DwainN4419
JennaWojci
CelsaSee77
RamonitaMa
JodiV32952
WillMillim
CandraNeid
IDDDoyle0
NormaClous
Wayneblero
HerbertMed
Thomasadvex
Brianmeply
RayRobertson (Posted)
Afterkentag
Gary Penton
CiaraKwv92
condor
BritneyLen
Denzisdeack (registered today)

(th)

Offline

#20 2019-02-11 17:57:27

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,473

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

While the user names look legit but it is usually the email address that identifies whom might be a spamming account.
The dormant non posting accounts are quite high to actual people that care to say even hello.
We were getting more than 50 accounts a day for quite a long stretch of time but it seems to be dropping but still not many are posting to the forum.

Offline

#21 2019-02-11 19:56:30

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 1,203

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Thanks for your comment about the non-posting registrations, SpaceNut ...

I went back to check the user list, and confirmed that (as an ordinary member) I cannot see the email address associated with a user ID.

I wonder why all those folks are creating member ID's, but will probably never know.

Still, with your indulgence, I'd like to try extending an invitation as demonstrated above, perhaps once a month or so.

It is possible that NONE of the registrations are legitimate, but if there is just ONE person a month who can be persuaded to participate who otherwise would not have, then the effort will have been worth while.

There is SO much potential for participation in a visualization of a community that might exist on Mars some day.  I ran a quick check today, and if we take Louis' Sagan City concept as a model, with an arbitrary size of 7800 (or so) square kilometers, then (theoretically) we could have a community of 7800 Haciendas in existence in the NewMars forum database.   That number of participants should be able to simulate a robust economy.

My 25 year old clothes dryer gave out today.  The local appliance parts store has belts for that ancient machine in stock, so I'll be heading over to pick one up tomorrow.  That is an example of a perfectly reasonable focus for at least ONE Hacienda, since practically everyone who sets up shop in Sagan City is going to have a variety of appliances of various kinds for household support, let alone a variety of machines for economic activity of various kinds.

My hope is that as NewMars members begin to create detailed specifications for "their" Haciendas, it will become clear that certain activities will be expected to be performed by machines of various kinds, and these will have to be supplied and maintained by individuals who are running neighboring Haciendas.

Void (and others in the Forum) have already described underground passageways that will (presumably) run under the Haciendas in a pattern that makes sense for movement of supplies and people.   Those will need to be constructed and maintained by teams managed by Hacienda owners, as the economic activity they contribute to the community.

(th)

SpaceNut wrote:

While the user names look legit but it is usually the email address that identifies whom might be a spamming account.
The dormant non posting accounts are quite high to actual people that care to say even hello.
We were getting more than 50 accounts a day for quite a long stretch of time but it seems to be dropping but still not many are posting to the forum.

Offline

#22 2019-02-11 20:35:11

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,473

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

I agree that advocacy is sort of lacking and its left to individuals to choose to join Mars society or to do what we are doing here with our words. I hope that what we talk about is being read by others and that the planned discusions do get used when we do try to creat the effort to go to mars.
Trade repair not in Louis world though we need dreamers...but we do need those that work to keep things running. You could call me the janitor and I would still go to mars....From the moment that we take the first journey to mars we will be on the frontier as we have never gone.

Edit
Next post contains the Plot #### registry Identifier format to add to the discusion for the area you are working,

Offline

#23 2019-02-12 09:28:05

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 1,203

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

SearchTerm:Recorder
SearchTerm:PlotMaster

This post is updated as needed by tahanson43206 and SpaceNut

To request a plot in the virtual community Sagan City (2018) please post a request in this topic.

An approximate number of 1 kilometer plots able to fit inside the 50 kilometer radius of Sagan City (2018 version) is 7800.

The purpose of this post is to record plots to be associated with specific Member ID's in the NewMars forum.

By default, I am assigning Plot #1 to Louis, who created the concept for Sagan City in 2018, and then released it for Open Source application.

Because RobertDyck was kind enough to sponsor this topic, I am assigning Plot #2 to RobertDyck.

I'd like to offer Plot #3 to SpaceNut

Terraformer invited me to join this forum, I'd like to offer Plot #4 for development, if desired.

JoshNH4H joined the initial round of responses to this topic at post #12.  I'd like to offer Plot #5 for his imagination to populate.

I'll pick up Plot #6 from the initial round.

kdb512, I'd like to offer Plot #7, with a special request that you will develop a fission reactor supply and maintenance service.

Plot allocations for Sagan City (2018):

0000 Louis Master plan for Sagan City
0001 Louis Entertainment Facility Park Recreation "Louis' Entertainment Emporium"
0002 RobertDyck Proposed:  Law and order seat of power
0003 SpaceNut Proposed: Toehold settlement
0004 Terraformer Bamboo and Paper
0005 JoshNH4H
0006 tahanson43206 Proposed economic activity: Banking: First Bank of NewMars
0007 kdb512 Proposed: Nuclear power facility
0008 SpaceNut Proposed economic activity: Support of Mobile Exploration Train (Edit(th): Supply, Training, Consulting, Guides)
0009 Proposed economic activity: Support of Exploration Teams (Edit(th): Second of three competing organizations)
0010 Proposed economic activity: Support of Exploration Teams (Edit(th): Third of minimal number of competitors)
0011 RobertDyck Proposed: Provisional life support plant (Edit(th): Business devoted to support of life support systems in Sagan City (2018) or outside)
0012 VOID Insitu pipeline manufacturing and connectivity of plots (Edit(th): Business dedicated to under-surface transport.)
0013 SpaceNut Waste stream recovery processing (Edit(th): First of three competing organizations)
0014 Grocery/General store
0015 Dental Services
0016 Medical Services/General practitioner
0017 Medical Services/Hospital/Research/Teaching
0018 Hardware/supplies/services
0019 Electrical supplies and services
0020 Plumbing supplies and services
0021 Construction Supplies and services
0022 Materials movement services and storage
0023 Energy supplies and services, excluding nuclear (see Plot0007)
0024 Liquor Store (Imported and Domestic) (Edit(th): This is the first of three establishments along these lines. Likely to evolve into night spot)
0025 Spiritual Sustenance Facility - Mental Health support - psychiatry, psychology(Edit(th): Universal at first but may focus over time)
0026 Recycling Center - Second business devoted to collection and processing of used materials from other plots in Sagan City (2018)
0027 Recycling Center #3 - Third of minimal number of competing organizations devoted to processing waste from plots in Sagan City (2018) or outside.
0028 Education #1 Aspiration: At least one human understands every technology in use in Sagan City (2018)
0029 Education #2 Aspiration: At least one human can intelligently update every technology in use in Sagan City (2018)
0030 Education #3 Aspiration: At least one human can replicate every technology in use in Sagan City (2018)
0031 Cultural Center: Library, museum, community arts facility, concert hall, theater, human history center
0032
0033
0034


7800 Last plot for Sagan City 2018

Plots numbered above 7800 can be anywhere on Mars.

(th)

SpaceNut
Edits to table of plot owners and proposed purpose
Edit 2019/09/02 ... tahanson43206 ... added more suggestions for plot focus
Edit master plan topic for Sagan City
Edit Void award in memory of contribution
Edit 2019/09/17 added more suggestions for plot focus (th)

post 31
"Free" service has no meaning in the context of a Mars settlement. 
There is no "free" air.  There is no "free" water.  There is no "free" power.   There is no "free" medical care. 
Each Hacienda is truly self sufficient.

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2019-09-23 20:31:40)

Offline

#24 2019-02-12 15:33:11

Terraformer
Member
From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,129
Website

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

What I'm hoping this topic delivers is in-depth, thoughtful anticipation of market needs which forward looking entrepreneurs can undertake to supply.

I definitely think there'll be a strong demand for water. I also think there'll be a strong demand for bamboo, so I expect to see large plantations on Mars (and perhaps on Ceres)..

Plot0004 Bamboo
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 07#p145707


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

Offline

#25 2019-02-12 18:38:20

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 1,203

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Hi Terraformer,

Thanks for picking up on this concept!

There are 7800 open plots as this gambit opens.  Would you be willing to allocate your (already assigned) plot to either water or bamboo?

I'm trying to encourage Division of Labor, so (it seems to me) it is taking on too much to try to become a supplier of fresh, potable water AND a supplier of bamboo.  Whoever grows bamboo for trade in the community is going to be a major CONSUMER of water. 

If you would be interested in picking up a second plot for the other focus, I'd be happy to award one.

After all, they are abundant (at this point) and cheap!!!

To establish your existing plot, add the following to the static post you'll be maintaining:

SearchTerm:Plot0004

Then, start building the attributes of that plot to fulfill the mission you have chosen.

Use the Edit feature to make the changes.

(th)

Terraformer wrote:

What I'm hoping this topic delivers is in-depth, thoughtful anticipation of market needs which forward looking entrepreneurs can undertake to supply.

I definitely think there'll be a strong demand for water. I also think there'll be a strong demand for bamboo, so I expect to see large plantations on Mars (and perhaps on Ceres)..

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB