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#1 2016-10-06 09:59:47

louis
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From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,802

Narrow gorges - a quick way to create an Earth like environment.

Just posting a few links to  photos of narrow gorges on Earth to encourage people to think of such gorges as potential Earth-like environments on Mars.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/73 … 36e1bb.jpg

http://highlife.ba.com/media/17076/kp_c … copy-p.jpg

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=narro … 2OJIYIM%3A

Natural light a gorge on Mars  could be increased through use of solar reflectors and/or light pipes built into the sides. The gorges would be covered over in transparent glass or plastic and then pressurised.

Soil would be created at the flat bottom of the gorge and at appropriate points on the sides and then would be seeded, so as to create a lush environment. Water would be introduced into the environment.

The environment would require some regulation in terms of venting and humidity levels. 

Emergency pressure shelters could be created at the bottom for use in event of catastrophic meteorite impact.

Pressurised tunnels with air locks might lead to this sort of earth like environment from nearby bases.   

We could start small with a narrow gorge, say 30 feet across and 300 feet long.

With paths built into the sides, even quite small gorges would offer substantial opportunities for walking/jogging/climbing. 

Once the technology was mastered, much larger gorges might be used to create virtual open spaces.

If we can't find the right gorge, we should just dig out one.


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#2 2016-10-06 13:32:52

Antius
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From: Cumbria, UK
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Posts: 1,003

Re: Narrow gorges - a quick way to create an Earth like environment.

I agree.  Solid rock walls have plenty of compressive strength and would therefore be ideal for a pressurised space.  The roof could be a counterweighted steel frame structure made from modular sections bolted together.  Rock can provide the counterweight.

If we are going to be using electric power for crop illumination, or even small polytunnels on the surface, then perhaps the most practical arrangement for an early base would be a deep pit, with buildings either carved into the walls or attached using long-bolts.  That gives you a lot of habitable volume from a relatively small structural roof.  Since the roof is the thing we pay for, we want the most habitable volume per unit roof area.  The rock would provide plentiful insulation against the cold after an initial warming up period.  Depending on the depth of the water table, the pit could be extended downward for at least a kilometre before crush strength of the rock became problematic.

Last edited by Antius (2016-10-06 13:35:36)

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#3 2016-10-06 15:06:38

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,194

Re: Narrow gorges - a quick way to create an Earth like environment.

I would like in on this conversation.
I agree while reserving the liberty to innovate with what has already been posted.
I have done thinking along these lines myself, similar, but not the same.

And this is a wonderful thing, because there are likely to be many good answers, even if they vary from each other, and perhaps we can help each other with our versions.

My current preference is a toroidal canyon.  One that joins itself by circling.  Of course it has to be artificial.  Sandstone would likely be the easiest and most stable implementation, but other options can be considered.

Such toroidal canyons could be capped in much the way you guys have suggested, but in this case you would be using a "Half-Toroid" I presume made mostly of metals.  So, if you laid a torus flat down, and split in half, the upper half and the lower half you might choose which you wanted.  The upper half could be counterweighted by putting regolith on top of it, but the bottom half would compress, against the rock sides.  For now, I prefer the bottom half method.

I think I would want something like this for several reasons.  For one, you could suspend a rail crane hoist from it and access pretty much most points of the walls from the hoist basket.  Also, the ring would allow access to the surface through ports, to bring in and out materials and energy.

The Hoist(s) will be important, because in this version light weight vegetable gardens will be attached to the walls, as well as an electrical grid, and a light source, probably LED's.

As you guys have suggested, indeed, apartments could be carved into the walls with access ports.  And indeed although the toroidal canyon would be the "Street" to move objects, there would be no restriction to prevent having tunnels which would allow Louis or Antius to come and visit me at my apartment in case they want to give me a beating.

A rather different version might have the toroidal canyon, but it would have a spiral ramp which would start at the top and of course end at the bottom.  I am thinking that cross members made of basalt would be desired, and concave tiles of basalt would be the desired floor for the spiral.

This would be like Spanish tiles.  Lets say the gap between walls was wide enough for one of us to walk up and down the spiral ramp, and if we encountered another person, we could turn sideways, to get by each other.

That would be OK, unless you met this guy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_Bastard_(character)
He would probably eat you.
330px-Fat_bastard.jpeg
If he didn't eat you, it would be disgusting to try to squeeze by him.

So, you have vanes composed of basalt cross members, and concave tiles that overlap.  And it is a spiral.  You may put photo diodes or a better alternative in their to light it up so you can see F.B. coming and run away if you can.  And to grow plants otherwise.

Also a trickle of water may be caused to flow down this spiral gutter/garden/pathway, from the top to the bottom.

And so at the bottom will be a ring of water, a pool of water which has acquired the temperature of it's passage.

If this could work as is previously speculated, this is what has already been stated, but it is also a heat exchanger/reservoir.

And liquid is a good way to transfer heat.  So, perhaps in the dead of night it would pay to pump the heated water at the bottom of the toroid canyon, upwards to vent the heat to the deep cold of the Martial night to make electricity.  Therefore recovering energy, and having energy at night.

So, other thoughts:
You could gradually widen the canyon as it was carved downwards, leaving a bottom that was rather much wider.

Of course you could join many toroidal canyons by simple tunnels.

RobertDyck has been in part the progenitor of this notion as he has made my perception of what it might take to have a productive greenhouse on the surface so painful, that I recoil from the notion, and think that rather we should dig deep, and transfer energy from the surface to the deep and vice versa.

Done.  (For Now)

Not quite:
NASA it seems has been looking in to laser printers that print basalt.  The results so far are like baby's, full of poop and promise.

https://3dprint.com/30302/3d-printing-on-moon-mars/

Now I'm done, I hope.

Last edited by Void (2016-10-06 15:46:21)


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#4 2016-10-06 16:59:31

louis
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From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,802

Re: Narrow gorges - a quick way to create an Earth like environment.

Lots of good ideas there Void.

Some comments:

1. Water will need to be kept running I expect to prevent build of potential pathogens. So that fits in with your approach in any case.

2. I like the idea of a circular canyon as it would make for nice bike and running circuits.

3.  You could of course of populate your canyon with an eco system of wild organisms: I'd favour birds, some small mammals (squirrels) , beetles and earthworms, some butterflies and bees. Of course getting the ecosytem right would be crucial.

4.  Carving out of the lower canyon would be a good idea -making space for restaurants, cafes, clothing outlets, and public facilities.

5. I too am a fan of dig deep for victory on Mars. Energy is the one thing it is easy to obtain on Mars - transferring it underground makes sense.

6.  The canyon roof may require a further water barrier over it to minimise radiation.  I do favour some sort of natural light roof - think it will be pyschologically important even if most of the light came in from LEDs or similar.


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#5 2016-10-06 17:11:22

Void
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Posts: 3,194

Re: Narrow gorges - a quick way to create an Earth like environment.

Pleased.

That's the good part of it, it might offer protection but ways to customize.

Yeah, a bit of real light from the actual sun might make people feel good.  We are after all artifacts left behind by our ancestors.


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#6 2016-10-06 19:06:21

RobS
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From: South Bend, IN
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Re: Narrow gorges - a quick way to create an Earth like environment.

One problem: rock is porous enough for air to leak out. You will need to warm the canyon up, pump in martian air, warm it and humidify it, then let it leak into the rock, where the water will condense and eventually freeze up the cracks. But even then, you'll have some leakage, and from time to time it might be catastrophic.

I suspect it is easier to drive pilings into the Martian ground in a flat area, erect a hemispheric dome over the area, then flood the warmed, flat ground with water for a while to establish a water table under your dome. Air can't leak through that, and as the ground underneath warms, the water table will move down, plug up the interstices, and freeze them shut at the bottom. The dome will need an airtight skirt in the space between the dome and the water table, and you'll need to add water to maintain the water table.

Last edited by RobS (2016-10-06 19:07:54)

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#7 2016-10-06 20:05:17

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,194

Re: Narrow gorges - a quick way to create an Earth like environment.

Yes, for sandstone in particular, it might be necessary, to spray a sealant on the porous surface of the rock where you hope to hold atmosphere.  If it is a significant crack more may need to be done.

There will never be as easy a place as what we have, I think.

But this thread is about modifying canyons natural or created.  Domes?  OK, say they are better and explain why, but don't try to turn this into another dome thread.

I don't trust domes at all.

That's all I have to say about it.

Last edited by Void (2016-10-06 20:05:49)


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#8 2016-10-07 03:51:07

louis
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From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,802

Re: Narrow gorges - a quick way to create an Earth like environment.

I don't think porosity is a major problem and if it is I feel sure there will be technical solutions - how about initially seeding the air with nanoparticles that will be drawn into the natural air pathways in the rock, eventually sealing them up?  In any case, no doubt some rocks will be better than others. 

RobS wrote:

One problem: rock is porous enough for air to leak out. You will need to warm the canyon up, pump in martian air, warm it and humidify it, then let it leak into the rock, where the water will condense and eventually freeze up the cracks. But even then, you'll have some leakage, and from time to time it might be catastrophic.

I suspect it is easier to drive pilings into the Martian ground in a flat area, erect a hemispheric dome over the area, then flood the warmed, flat ground with water for a while to establish a water table under your dome. Air can't leak through that, and as the ground underneath warms, the water table will move down, plug up the interstices, and freeze them shut at the bottom. The dome will need an airtight skirt in the space between the dome and the water table, and you'll need to add water to maintain the water table.


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#9 2016-10-07 05:39:05

elderflower
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Registered: 2016-06-19
Posts: 1,219

Re: Narrow gorges - a quick way to create an Earth like environment.

The walls of these gorges may be bound together with ice. Melting might lead to wall collapse even if mechanical excavations don't.

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#10 2016-10-07 07:48:55

louis
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From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,802

Re: Narrow gorges - a quick way to create an Earth like environment.

I don't think you would just allow people in straight after you warm up and pressurise the environment. I am sure we would conduct detailed tests on the rock formation prior to beginning construction.  However I think there are many rock types that won't have much ice content.

elderflower wrote:

The walls of these gorges may be bound together with ice. Melting might lead to wall collapse even if mechanical excavations don't.


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#11 2016-10-07 08:24:22

Antius
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From: Cumbria, UK
Registered: 2007-05-22
Posts: 1,003

Re: Narrow gorges - a quick way to create an Earth like environment.

There will be slow leaks through the rock and through the roof itself.  On a world like the moon that would not be economically tolerable.  On Mars however, we can manufacture air from the atmosphere using a chemical reactor, replacing that which is gradually lost.

Better still, if leakage rates are low enough, pressurise the Martian atmosphere, remove 90% of the CO2 (it liquefies at a high enough pressure) and inject the remaining gas straight into the habitat.  This will be about 20% argon, 40%N2 and 40% CO2.  Plants will metabolise the CO2 into oxygen.

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#12 2016-10-07 10:24:03

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,194

Re: Narrow gorges - a quick way to create an Earth like environment.

RobS,

(With nods to the posts others have now done),

I feel I did not address your concerns properly, and was in fact rather rude.  I was watching "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly near that time, perhaps my Spaghetii Cowboy mode was on.  Still I do intend to defend the thought experiment which is occurring here, if it seems reasonable to me to do so.  But to the degree I can be less rude, I apologize.


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#13 2016-10-07 10:25:44

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,194

Re: Narrow gorges - a quick way to create an Earth like environment.

I have been watching, to positive comments/giving/ideas and from my viewpoint it would be hard to be better pleased.

So far, I have information which only confirms sandstone near the equator.  I would guess that it occurs elsewhere as well, but cannot get that confirmation.  I guess sandstone is not necessarily a restriction.  Harder rocks, and even icy permafrost can be considered, but hard rock is harder to carve, and permafrost limits the utility of the device constructed.  Still we don't know what proposed Martian inhabitants might find useful/possible.  We should be careful not to excessively restrict options just yet.

Here though I will restrict myself to the presumed properties of a layer of sandstone on Mars, and since I do not have evidence of sandstone outside of the ~Equator, I will presume that that is what we are working with, will try to speculate good results from a manipulation of such a deposit with what I claim is a rational method.

Some important issues mentioned are pressurization security, moisture, and I add robotics.

Pressurization security could be a qualification process.  You use one of these canyons (Toroidal or Linear, or ZigZag, etc), for purposes of production of needed resources, until it develops a history of reliability, then it might be qualified for a human habitat.  So, like others, I have addressed security issues here.  I will address them further as well.  (Others have suggested similar).  If gravitation on Mars is not sufficient to grant good health, then indeed, for a toroidal canyon which has been certified as pressurization and safety stable, I might suggest the addition of a synthetic gravity ring, if that might help.  Enough said for that.  Don't think you need more.

So, moisture is an issue everywhere on Mars, if you have ice it is cold and you are dry.  If you don't have ice, then the temperatures are likely to high for a good relative humidity.  But, what about the night-time?

http://www.iflscience.com/space/weather … ible-mars/

Relative humidity depends on the temperature of the air and the amount of water vapor in it, and Curiosity’s measurements have ranged from 5 percent during summer afternoons to 100 percent in the nighttime during fall and winter. Pores in the soil interact with air just above the ground, and when the relative humidity gets above a certain level, the salts absorb enough water molecules to become dissolved in liquid. The subsurface water content estimated using Curiosity data is consistent with the existence of water molecules absorbed by perchlorates in soils. 

So, you have chances of capturing water if you pump atmosphere into something like a covered canyon at night, during the fall and winter, at least.

Granted, it is a meager input, as the atmosphere of Mars does not conduct vast amounts of moisture, but if your input is greater than your losses, and you for that reason employ recycling, then is it possible that even at the equator, you might get a net moisture gain?  I think maybe so, if you are able to beat the game, and I think we might beat the game, if we use our best methods.

As always there are no guarantees, but suppose you might make a canyon, maybe a toroidal canyon where you conduct heat into it during the day, from a solar source, and then during the night radiate off the heat by a method that produces power, perhaps electric power, and use that power to pump nighttime atmosphere into your enclosure.  You then have chances of elevating the humidity within.

To do this your daytime heating method must not have significant moisture  loss  I suggest perhaps solar heated air, by methods that do not lead to moisture loss.

Perhaps in your enclosure, the day night temperatures vary by a significant measure day to night using this method.  So, maybe a nighttime power supply to provide energy to pump/pressurize night time air into the enclosure.

And then robotics.  If you have a canyon of some type and a overhead crane on a rail, then you might access all points of the walls (Perhaps).  You might water crops planted in hanging planters, you might access an electric grid, and LED's, and whatever.  So, a farming robot perhaps.

And, you might have a crane robot that works deeper in the slot, (Further down), that digs the slot deeper.  (Maybe).

Enough, Done.

Last edited by Void (2016-10-07 11:18:26)


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#14 2016-10-07 12:52:45

louis
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From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,802

Re: Narrow gorges - a quick way to create an Earth like environment.

A dome is never going to look and feel as natural as a gorge carved in natural forms by natural processes out of real rock.

I think the one thing the Aresians will miss is that feel of being able to wander in what feels like  a natural environment - and I think that on Mars, a gorge space offers our best chance of recreating that feeling.

However, the two concepts aren't opposed. I think a large dome space will have its own attractions.


RobS wrote:

One problem: rock is porous enough for air to leak out. You will need to warm the canyon up, pump in martian air, warm it and humidify it, then let it leak into the rock, where the water will condense and eventually freeze up the cracks. But even then, you'll have some leakage, and from time to time it might be catastrophic.

I suspect it is easier to drive pilings into the Martian ground in a flat area, erect a hemispheric dome over the area, then flood the warmed, flat ground with water for a while to establish a water table under your dome. Air can't leak through that, and as the ground underneath warms, the water table will move down, plug up the interstices, and freeze them shut at the bottom. The dome will need an airtight skirt in the space between the dome and the water table, and you'll need to add water to maintain the water table.


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#15 2016-10-07 18:48:17

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,194

Re: Narrow gorges - a quick way to create an Earth like environment.

Oh, to be more precise, if it were possible to collect a net value of moisture from the air near the equator, yes injection of night air with enhanced moisture, but also during that same night the dispersal of heat into the Martian night cold, while doing so with a non-permeable radiator.  Then during the days heat recovering the moisture condensed in that radiator, back into the gorge.

Maybe chances exist for that to work, but it has to be made rather effective.


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#16 2016-10-08 16:41:53

Void
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Posts: 3,194

Re: Narrow gorges - a quick way to create an Earth like environment.

In the quest for moisture at the equator again.

I think that maybe, if electrons were stripped from atmospheric molecules on the outside, and injected into the gorge enclosure, it may help to retain or even attract water ions into the enclosure.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti … ence-home/

What I had read a long time ago was about how it is possible to wet a plough blade even in apparently dry soil, by attaching a negative charge to the plough blade, and of course then you also have to have a conductor inserted into the soil somewhere else, to complete the circuit.  This I think is hard to find, because it has some applications,  that might be considered important to some entities.

Initially I believe that Louis was looking only at the idea of creating a pleasant habitat.  That perhaps also needs to continue to be a very nice objective.

But if sandstone toroidal caves turn out to be easy to make, then some of them could simply contain compressed Martian atmosphere (Have to make a method to compress the air).  If the compressed Martian air leaks out, so what just put more in.  But while you are doing that, also charge the interior to a (-) charge, hoping to retain/attract water from the rock pores.

Previous reading I have done suggests that just compressing Martian air could release liquid water.  Perhaps that is also true.  But I of course need to apply caution just because you read it or think you read it does not guarantee that it is true.

Still if a method to collect water from the atmosphere involving sandstone enclosures could be created, I would facilitate habitation of the equator.

As for the gorges with compressed Martian air in them, there is some reason to suppose the plants need less water.  At least for CO2 uptake (Less evaporation from the leaves, because the stomata are not opened as much).  Of course roots have to be wetted still.
http://arstechnica.com/science/2016/04/ … -scarcity/

I am going to guess that many plants will not like to grow in compressed Martian air, but if you could find a few, that were useful, then you might have something.

Done.

Oops! not quite.

During the night circulate some of the enclosure air through a non permeable radiator, and then when it's moisture is condensed on the interior walls as frost, vent that air (CO2/N2/Argon mostly).  Then in the day when the sunlight warms the radiator, suck that moisture back in with an outside air input.

There might be chances of a net gain to an interior humidity which is suitable for agriculture.

Last edited by Void (2016-10-08 17:06:01)


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#17 2016-10-08 19:51:08

SpaceNut
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Posts: 18,576

Re: Narrow gorges - a quick way to create an Earth like environment.

Simple construction as all it needs is 2 ends and a top to complete if there is no need for any sort of bottom liner to aid in sealing this newly created chamber.

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#18 2016-10-09 19:31:12

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,194

Re: Narrow gorges - a quick way to create an Earth like environment.

Louis, I apologize for taking over your thread so much.

Spacenut, I think that there are a lot of options, some are very exciting to me.

Antius said this previously:

Depending on the depth of the water table, the pit could be extended downward for at least a kilometre before crush strength of the rock became problematic.

I am going to presume that the ideal stone to carve into is sandstone/mudstone, and that it is available at the equator.  I am also go with a modified gorge.  It may or may not start as a natural gorge.

With what Antius has said for depth, I will add the speculation that the "Gorge" could be dug down expanding width, and length, as it was made deeper/higher from top to bottom.   So, you could have a Cathedral type dome roof as seen from the inside.

http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/hole-rock
inside2_0.jpg

While a linear gorge may be perfectly fine, I would like to have a toroidal gorge that would start something like in this picture, but with an access roof of metal/glass/plastic/etc., and with the toroid expanding outward, but the central column staying the same width.  Also, I would want that gorge/cave carved more evenly, like inside of a bell.

While a linear gorge that expands as it goes down, may work fine, I prefer the multiple curvatures of the toroidal model, because I believe it will minimize rock fall from the expanding outer wall.

Antius mentioned "Water Table".  That would be something if it could be dug down to a water table.

But if not down to the water table, the interior of this toroidal bell would be a excellent spot to drill a well, down to any water table.

I would expect such water to be salty, and perhaps even toxic, cold, but wet.  (Which is a nice thing to have at the equator.

I would also reference this thread for something one of the members has provided:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7493&p=5
From it's post #104, kbd512 provided this:

A rover driving slowly, dragging a regolith collection bucket through the regolith, and then closing the regolith container after it is full of regolith is not any sort of miracle technology that requires years of development.  From actual testing on Mars, the water content in the regolith ranges from 2% to 60%.

So, then this as another method by which water for such a "Home" (Giant Home) could be procured near the equator, lets say in rock like at Mount Sharp.

It might even turn out to be possible to simply keep digging the "Gorge" and bake the tailings to procure a continuous supply of make up water.  (At least it would be one possible supply).  Of course you have to get rid of the tailings, but what if you could in part make them into solar collecting equipment, and ceramic type structures, in some cases perhaps involving a 3D printer.  Maybe sintering, or maybe just the sulfur glue others have been talking about.  (I have not specified what kind of solar power equipment, it could be any and all of the types).  Solar cells, mirrors, etc.

I would suppose that these caves could be lighted by LED's, since they seem to be becoming more efficient.

Spacenut said:

Simple construction as all it needs is 2 ends and a top to complete if there is no need for any sort of bottom liner to aid in sealing this newly created chamber.

Well, I think that there would be many options available, and you could make many different types of gorges to suit various needs.

I think that in the case of the bell/torus/gorge with outward expansion as you went downward, you could in fact use a liner, to attempt to achieve a purpose.

For instance you could have a breathable atmosphere inside the liner, but at times compress raw Martian air into the space between the outside of the liner and the gorge/cave wall.

The walls could be finely Knurled or alternately grooved.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knurling
This would allow gas flow between the cave wall and the liner, even if the pressures inside the liner and that knurled gap were different.

Not proven as working may be the idea that if you compressed air into the knurled passageway, you might add electrons to it, electrons plucked from the outside environment, but maybe even to a degree from the inside of the liner itself.

So, one mode would be to have the interior of the liner at 650 to 1000 mb, and the knurled gap compressed above that of the outside atmosphere to lets say 12 or 70, or 300 mb, whatever is convenient.
The compression mode would be done when you supposed that the outside air was at a moisture content sufficiently above a desired cutoff point average.

So, doing this I am hoping that the knurled sandstone is acting like a sponge to absorb/adsorb moisture, and the electron input is encouraging it to stay near the liner.

Now, conversely, at some appointed time a vacuum can be drawn on the knurled sandstone surface, and the moisture content extracted into a containment to be compressed to condensation.  Even though the inside of the liner was at 650 to 1000 mb, the knurled surface could be >6 mb, and the interior heat of the chamber presumably will be above 0 degC, so that implies that any water in the sandstone will be withdrawn as a vapor, to be compressed to a liquid.

So, this is yet another way to get moisture into a gorge dwelling near the equator.

Safety concerns:
1) Martian compressed atmosphere in the Knurled surface will at all times be at a pressure less than that of the interior of the liner.  Therefore we would not expect it to penetrate into the living environment to poison it.  However atmospheric monitoring of CO2 (Which you would want anyway), would reveal if your Martian air pumping system was somehow pushing Martian poison atmosphere into the living environment.

2) Explosive decompression of the gorge.  While I do propose to have the knurled surface at a very low pressure often, that does not imply that I would in anyway allow a situation where a perforation of the liner would vent the entire atmosphere to the surface.  Rather the flow of gasses and the application of vacuum would be carefully regulated by valves, check valves, and any other necessary safety methods.  Still this would allow communion of the Martian atmosphere with the knurled surface by carefully regulated and relatively fail safe methods (If anyone of a responsible nature were to design the system).

Now, I did mention solar energy.  Of course why not solar cells, if that if the most cost effective.

But a large chamber like this can also double as a thermal reservoir.

So, you could directly heat the air in it during the day, and disperse the heat at night.  I would think that generation of electricity from that process is not out of the question.  And since if vertical farms using artificial light were used, you would definitely want to vent a lot of heat, even with LED's.  So cooling the chamber interior and rock down at night to fairly low temperatures would be fine I would think, to help keep the place cool during the day.

Other problems the liner causes:

With a simple gorge without a liner, you might attach electrical grids, LED's and Planters to the vertical walls.  However the liner will complicate this.  Perhaps in the case of the toroidal gorge I suggest, the central post would not have a vertical liner, but would be sprayed with a sealant every time any construction alteration was done, or to repair naturally occurring deteriorations.  So, that central post could help to support and be re-enforced by a ring of vertical farms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_farming
http://inhabitat.com/urban-produce-vert … d-indoors/
Urban-Produce-Indoor-Vertical-Garden-Shelves-889x593.jpg

If a sufficiently moisturized method of mega dwellings in gorges can be implemented in this fashion, I do not feel that it should interfere with Elon Musks plans for the colonization of Mars, rather it should fit with it very well.

While I think that sufficient moisture may be obtainable at the equator, using tricky and thrifty methods, I do not think enough for his spaceships can be provided.  However, each high latitude North and South should provide seasonal abundance for his purposes.  Then all you need is a transport mode from his North and South spaceports, to these equatorial cities.  I propose a "Hopper" method, but of course cars and trucks, and trains/hyperloops smile would be quite suitable as well.

I believe that Elon Musk believes that Hyperloops will not require pipes on Mars.  However, if you did use tubes/pipes, then when you were not running a train, you could pipe water vapor to the equatorial cities from the polar deposits.  You of course would have to deal with a potential for condensation of ice, but heat could protect from that.

So, later on that is yet another way to get moisture into a network of gorge cities.

And again linear gorge habitats will be nice as well.  Maybe, if they are artificially manufactured, they could be in a star configuration.  That is with a junction joining several, allowing a family to dwell in one particular one.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronom … n_get.html
curiosity_murraybuttes4.jpg.CROP.original-original.jpg
Quote:

That's not Utah. That's Mars.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2016-10-09 21:08:19)


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#19 2016-10-27 12:08:20

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,194

Re: Narrow gorges - a quick way to create an Earth like environment.

Lewis, and further reading have made me to understand that at least on Earth, Sandstone, is rather impermeable.  That can be a good thing.  Never-the-less, apparently on Earth sandstone can support aquifers.

http://water.usgs.gov/ogw/aquiferbasics/sandstone.html

sandst_us.gif

I have referenced such in the USA, because it's what came up on my query.  I am sure their are many other "Testbeds" around the world that we could hope to use.

I am focusing on this particular type of aquifer, because we know that there are sandstone deposits of significance around the equator of Mars, and I believe that over the long history of Mars, there may very well have been significant glaciation above or near these deposits.

I really don't know the rules which apply, but there is some hope that a glacial deposit could have melted with the aid of salts and pressure and ground heat, and so pushed water into the sandstone over enormous periods of time.  Any fault in the rock/permafrost would assist this.

As for the now period, it is likely that either permafrost caps off any aquifers, or that they are so salty and cold that the vapor pressure is slight, to push the water out of the aquifer and back into the atmosphere.  So, by my thinking the process over time favors the capture of water into the sandstone at the equator.

That is what I speculate could be true.

As far as liquid water charging sandstone from equatorial glaciers in more recent times, I can offer the possibility that if indeed water ice is driven from the poles to the equator when the axis of Mars tilts more, then what becomes of the dry ice?

Can it find a place to condense on Mars?  Or does the Martian atmospheric pressure go up for a while during that period of time?
If so, then it is possible that during Martian daylight in those climatic situations you might have ice/snow melts, at least under the surface of the ice/snow, due to sunlight of the day.  Any such melt will seek to flow under the glaciers to form lakes.  And that water and ice above it would be pressurized, and might charge an aquifer.

No proof.  Just speculative.  I would think we could hope to find some evidence to support the notion.

As I have mentioned previously in this post, I think that especially under Martian conditions we suppose, sandstone at the equator might tend to accept and retain water over the ages.

Last edited by Void (2016-10-27 12:23:27)


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#20 2016-10-27 12:28:14

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,194

Re: Narrow gorges - a quick way to create an Earth like environment.

Lewis started this thread, and I feel it is a very good one.

I am wondering about false gorges, carved further down.  Granted you will want gorges with access to the surface, but what about carving further down in sandstone?  False lighting in the ceilings of course, attempts to make it psychologically acceptable to average humans.

I see this as the potential to have a real "City", which should have the potential to efficiently develop strong economic growth.

And of course I have my eyes on the possibility that this location may have an aquifer below which could provide both water and minerals of value.  And yes it would be near the equator, perhaps even Mount Sharp.


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#21 2019-10-25 18:11:25

Grim77b
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Registered: 2019-10-25
Posts: 5

Re: Narrow gorges - a quick way to create an Earth like environment.

I just joined today and had similar questions about using a cayon or gourge this topic answered alot but couldnt you terrace plants like the incas did? I also thought a temperoy fix would be to use sand to make glass and use that to top the gorgue and I like the layer of water to help with cosmic radiation plus it would also be an instant hole patch only problem is it would freeze at curant temps

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#22 2019-10-25 18:45:20

louis
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From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,802

Re: Narrow gorges - a quick way to create an Earth like environment.

My general view is we need to start small and learn various techniques. Initially you might start with a 30 metre high gorge with a width of say 4 metres that runs for 500 metres.

The covering for the gorge could have various solutions. Currently I am think it would be best to have several layers covering the gorge, so structurally it is an easier build.  Of course gravity on Mars will help being so much lower than on Earth.

I would hope that gorges eventually becomes many mile long and maybe 200 metres high. It might also be possible to use laser and microwave beams to trap the atmosphere in the gorge - so no glass covering just lots of EM radiation - which might block damaging radiation from outer space.

I see no major problem with terraced planting, only that in a gorge the terraces would tend to increase the width of the gorge covering.


Grim77b wrote:

I just joined today and had similar questions about using a cayon or gourge this topic answered alot but couldnt you terrace plants like the incas did? I also thought a temperoy fix would be to use sand to make glass and use that to top the gorgue and I like the layer of water to help with cosmic radiation plus it would also be an instant hole patch only problem is it would freeze at curant temps


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#23 2019-10-27 19:04:38

SpaceNut
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Re: Narrow gorges - a quick way to create an Earth like environment.

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