Who Governs Mars? - Corporate Warlords vs. Commonwealth

srmeaney · 2005-03-18 09:27:08

The only reliable way to expand into space is to establish a Goverment that will have total dominion over the rest of the Universe. Having borrowed fifty million billion per annum to fund the Galactic Commonwealth, The Government (independent of all other Nations on this planet) would train its citizens for off world colonization. And contract out to the nations of the Earth for the purpose of launching resources at the rate of fifty tonnes per day for no less than a thousand years. That vast loan will be paid back twice. and be of benifit to the world as it funds global stability through contracts for food and resources that will force six billion people to come to terms with one another as equals and not masters and slaves.

Cobra Commander · 2005-03-18 09:55:47

The biggest power grab in history! :laugh:

BWhite · 2005-03-18 10:53:52

If you add a theology based on predestination, you would then have: Calvin & Hobbes.

Cobra Commander · 2005-03-18 11:16:12

If you add a theology based on predestination, you would then have: Calvin & Hobbes.

:laugh: Now that's good.

Palomar · 2005-03-18 11:39:29

*Corporate Warlords versus a Commonwealth?

The only reliable way to expand into space is to establish a Goverment that will have total dominion over the rest of the Universe

Can we have another option? Or optionS?

Having borrowed fifty million billion per annum to fund the Galactic Commonwealth

Big government...great. (Big waste, big corruption, big fraud...)

That vast loan will be paid back twice

I've heard that before. :-\

Welcome to New Mars, by the way.

--Cindy

P.S.: Here in the U.S., the corporations pretty much call the shots and run the Gov't (lobbyists, corporate "gifts", etc.)...they're so intertwined now -- enmeshed -- that it's really the corporate warlords in charge anyway. Same thing. So...there is no choice between the two.

srmeaney · 2005-03-19 02:29:05

Galactic Commonwealth

1.Citizenship

Commonwealth citizens would be equal shareholders in the benifits and responsibilities of Citizenship. Ethics and Equality are compulsory requirements. Most importantly, you are a Government employee for life and your wage is room and board. Personal growth adds to the Cultural development of a Spacefaring civilization.
Of course no other Nation or it's people will be allowd to leave the earth. Commonwealth citizens would go to stay, So tourism is out of the question unless the Commonwealth runs it to encourage citizenship.
Unless you wish to become citizens of the Galactic Commonwealth. That will be the furthest you will get.

Nations Can surrender to the Commonwealth. That of course would require a non secret vote by all of your citizens where every one of them said yes without intimidation. Not a majority. All.
They will also have to let their own citizens apply for a change of nationality. That is not going to be to popular with totalitarian states and super powers with galactic empire dreams.

2.Economic Benefits

Under the Galactic Commonwealth, Corporations dont leave planet earth. They will however get very rich off contracts that will pretty much be fourty million billion a year dumped back into the world economy for heavy lift projects, Habitats, labs, lease of equatorial launch facilities, rovers, space stations, terraforming projects, Food production.
Ten million billion a year will be for funding Research in Science and Engineering (real antigravity- it's out there hiding under a scientific rock waiting to be discovered by mathematicians, engineers and scientists), as well as maintaining some level of international Government.
Of course, all profit carries risk. If you default on a contract, your corporation will be surrendered with all assets to the Galactic Commonwealth. Nations wishing to benifit from contracts will will have to surrender to this consequence. One can thus hope that they have taught their people some level of ethics (Based on the rate of Default and criminality amongst modern Industry, I envision The Galactic Commonwealth owning everything within the first fifty years. Of course when the multinationals start defaulting, they will probably push the nearest superpower into going to war against the Galactic Commonwealth. Of course I could be wrong. Corporate contractors might actually be honest, ethical organizations who will never default on a contract or manipulate the economy to cause others to default on their contracts or start wars for personal benifit).

3.The burden of personal responsibility

Most importantly though, the responsibility of the citizenry to participate in what is essentialy doing the right thing for the benifit of all, is at the core of such a civilization. Folks out for themselves need not apply for citizenship. The right of the individual citizen to self government in the face of self serving treason is an absolute right and if your intent is to subvert that for your own interests or those of a group, nation, or agency, then the only thing you will get is a charge of treason, global media exposure of your identity and those of your 'friends', and a oneway ticket to our lunar prison colony in plain view of any 'earthling' with a telescope. There you will get to live without a space suit at the bottom of deep pit (with all the other traitors) breathing the planet's only atmosphere, and growing your own food (tilling the soil by hand) until the day you die.

srmeaney · 2005-03-19 03:15:40

You wanted to know where the flower children went? They are standing outside Paramount Studios crying over a squandered opportunity.

I'm offering something that doesn't invlolve a millitary dictatorship, secret police, or membership in a cult. I'm offering Commonwealth as the only way forward for all of us. It is better than anything you can offer in its place.

Palomar · 2005-03-19 05:14:46

You wanted to know where the flower children went? They are standing outside Paramount Studios crying over a squandered opportunity.

*That question (in my current signature line) can be posed/interpreted in a number of different ways.

Many of them didn't squander any opportunities, but in fact became the "Greed is Good" Wall Street sharks (or wannabes) of the 1980s.

It is better than anything you can offer in its place.

Are you arrogant?

By the way, you don't know my politics (my signature line doesn't reflect it either; again, that question could be interpreted in at least a couple of different ways)...so please don't make assumptions.

Political discussions of this nature (with someone who apparently considers his/her views the "be all/end all" -- "I am right, anything you could offer is automatically wrong") are an exercise in futility, IMO. Bye.

--Cindy

clark · 2005-03-19 06:29:55

Nations can surrender to the Corporation, but all the citizens must vote and agree. If one person disagree's, well, the entire nation will be denied. Okay. However, if a nation defaults on some umpteen million billion payment for a contract, the Corporation will own the nation...

Apparently being selfish and serving your own interests leads to a lunar gulag.

Pleasant utopia you got here. Where do I get my kool-aid?

Martian Republic · 2005-03-19 10:28:53

Depending on who owns the Galactic Commonwealth and who makes it policies, we could have either another dictator, corporation or class society direction the new configuration. Without checks and balances of power and who rules, it not something that I would want or be a part in setting up.

Larry,

srmeaney · 2005-03-19 10:55:10

Who said anything about a governing body? No government, no leaders, people simply working together to achieve a task that was agreed on the day they signed on as citizens.

"Hi! You have chosen to be a part of Mars Colony and have met the training qualifications. Your pay is room and Board. Once you land on Mars, You will spend the next ten years working with others to assemble and live in this mobile habitat which will allow you travel between refueling stations across the Mars Surface as you conduct Mineral Surveys for future missions."

The right of the Individual to freedom from the Guy standing next to him is an absolute right. If you cant be trusted with simple ethical conduct and are incapable of self government you get kicked out, never again to return or experience human contact.

srmeaney · 2005-03-19 11:01:11

Have we become so acustomed to being governed by others that we are incapable of accepting the alternatives? You have no concept of what real freedom is or the responsibility that comes with it.

ps. every citizen would own an equal share of the benifits and responsibilities that come with citizenship.

This kind of reminds me of a story my father told me as a child about aliens showing up and asking for a whole bunch of humans at which the government rounded up all the unemployed poor and diseased and sent them only to get them back well fed, healthy, and clothed.

It comes down to trust. If you cannot be trusted with my right to an equal share of the responsibility and benifits that come with citizenship, then the one way exit is over there.

clark · 2005-03-19 11:12:37

I see one person here laying down a lot of rules and stipulations. Seems like you prefer to do the governing yourself. :laugh:

srmeaney · 2005-03-19 11:23:21

You dont have to become a citizen of the 'Galactic Commonwealth'. You have the right to stay on earth and be a citizen of your own nation. If on the other hand you do decide you want to become a citizen of the Galactic Comonwealth, here is the penalty for treason. A one way ticket to a big deep pit on the moon where you get to grow your own food and till the soil by hand.

~Eternal~ · 2005-03-19 11:58:14

What if I think corporations are the spawn of satan and should have no role in such an inter...spacial(?) coalition?

Could I as a lowly earthling or martian protest or would I have to blow some stuff up before your mighty empire listened to me?

Leifur · 2005-03-19 21:23:15

The corporates are going to rule Mars, they have the neccasery drive and power to make Mars into an viable home for humans, that is, if we allow capitalism to thrive. Lets make the beuty of Capitalism make Mars and even the Moon and other celestial bodies into human paradises, nobody else can, certeinly not some corrupt governmental commonwealth. Here is an interesting article about the need for creating property rights in space:
http://www.cato.org/pubs/wtpapers/98081 … paper.html

But I agree with the starter of this thread (if I understood him correctly) that people should be independent of each other, I just can´t see that happening in an all powerful state.

A government, specially one with a monopoly of the space like he is proposing, can newer be as effective as competitive people starting bussines in space, but a government body can though have some merit. F.e. if there would be put up a Mars government to acquire recognision from others, but that kind of government would need to be VERY limited in powers. I would in fact prefer completely without any powers. You see, people that are going to move to Mars will be from very different bacgrounds, culturally, linguistically, socially and so on.

And Mars is a big place, so people will want to create their own societies, and not have to follow someones else´s law. So my conclusion is that in a future martian (and lunar) society, everything will have to be done by private means, the government shall not have any role, specially not in creating the law.

Of course it would be best if the people of Earth today could just agree on some basic laws about creation of ownership in space, f.e. if you build yourself a base on any celestial body, you would own it, and some land around it. In Mars it could be based on how much land you are personally responsible for terraforming. But I am afraid that will not be changed anytime soon, thus deleying and hindering process. So the solution is for some people to go to Mars (or Luna), declare it independent and not bound by international treaties barring acquiring of ownership in space. Then a very basic constitution will voted into effect by popular vote, that does not create any legislative, judgemental or executive bodies, but only states how people will acquire ownership of land on Mars, and that each and every individual is free, independant and Mars will be a society without coercion.

Then Mars will become a pure libertarian society, or in fact anarco-capitalistic, as the three basic things the libertarians want the government to do, judging, policing and defence will be in the hands of the market. The economist David D. Friedman has described how such a society will work, in his book, http://www.answers.com/topic/the-machin … reedom]The Machinery of Freedom, although he has not talked about putting up such a society on another plantet, or how to create ownership in a place where there is no ownership today. Maybe he or other scholars have ideas about how to do that without having to use somekind of government, best if it is possible to do completely away with such, because as stated here:

P.S.: Here in the U.S., the corporations pretty much call the shots and run the Gov't (lobbyists, corporate "gifts", etc.)...they're so intertwined now -- enmeshed -- that it's really the corporate warlords in charge anyway. Same thing. So...there is no choice between the two.

I agree with this statement, so the solution is to have no government through wich the corporations can control things.

I stated here abowe that the corporates will rule things, but as they will not be able to use any coercion through the government, people will be free, even from democratic majority decisions. Such a society will be different than any we know here on Earth, but that is exactly the drive for going into space, to do things differently, have a fresh start and try something else, and such a system will also be most capable of creating the wealth neccasery for such an enormous task.

el scorcho · 2005-03-20 01:12:10

I kinda thought he was kidding at first.

Martian Republic · 2005-03-20 11:30:32

Leifur,

Go to this web site and read what John has written on very large space infrastructures. He pretty much lay it out as to how we are going to terriform Mars or it not going to happen. He put it in terms that leave absolutely no doubt as to what needs to happen to make things happen in space.

http://www.transhumanist.com/volume4/sp … /space.htm

Larry,

Palomar · 2005-03-20 16:38:00

You wanted to know where the flower children went? They are standing outside Paramount Studios crying over a squandered opportunity.

*Disabled people? The mentally retarded? People who die young (25 and earlier)?

They'll never have opportunities. Or, at the most, *limited* opportunities (my spouse -- disabled). And usually it's *very* limited opportunities.

Black people in the 1950s? Latinos in the 1960s? Women in the 1910s? Severely limited for opportunities due to the prejudice of the majority.

***

The founder of Worldcom? Kenneth Lay and his crowd of corporate crooks at Enron?

They had opportunities...which they squandered. And now they're going to prison.

The issue of "opportunity" isn't cut and dry by any means.

Not everyone is granted the privilege of opportunity.

--Cindy

P.S.: And if you are going to remind me that "life isn't fair" I'll say that's right, it sure is not and perhaps those fortunate to have opportunities should be a bit mindful of others' lack of opportunities, and be a bit grateful...and dare I even suggest abit humble as well?

Cobra Commander · 2005-03-21 09:30:15

I kinda thought he was kidding at first.

Once the figure of "fifty million billion dollars" gets thrown around it's easy to think that isn't it. :;): Per annum, for a thousand years. Riiiight.

But just for the sake of argument, let's look at the merits. In general, this strikes me as one of those ideas that would have potential... if human nature were fundamentally different than it is. Like communism, it may look good on paper but in practice is a sure way to bring misery and death to a large number of people. Only this doesn't even look good on paper.

So this Commonwealth borrows more money than exists and declares the entire universe to be under its jurisdiction. If you want to be free, stay on Earth. However to move out into the cosmos you have to go through this indoctrination and be shipped off to a colony to work, paid with room and board. Slaves, in essence.

So what if I and a few comrades want to live on Mars, but don't like the whole indentured servitude thing? Say we get transport by means other than the cultish approach in the regs, set up on Mars and declare ourselves the "Martian Sovereign Free State" or some other such thing. What will the Commonwealth do?

Yeah, I know, gulag on the Moon. Fine, come and get us. Is this "benevolent" Commonwealth going to attack a group of peaceful settlers just beacuse they don't bow at the altar of some entity with the audacity to think it owns the universe? And suppose the prisons that have been amassed on the Moon decide to start governing themselves and work out a trade agreement with one of the Earth nations? What then?

This ill-conceived scheme is at best an amusing exercise and at worst a recipe for slavery and war on a scale unmatched in all of human history. Back to the drawing board.

Edited By Cobra Commander on 1111432614

Martian Republic · 2005-03-21 19:09:16

This is one time that I'm in agreement with you Cobra Commander.

Larry,

srmeaney · 2005-03-21 19:35:55

A Scenario, at last:
By it's very structure, Your own Government would be required to prevent you from accessing space unless you became a citizen of the Commonwealth. You might be able to get as far as a space station for tourist purposes. If you comandeered a vessel, then the Commonwealth would disolve the sovereignty of the corporation responsible for breech of contract. By your very actions of having used force and terrorism, you would reveal your self as someone not interested in freedom and equality.

Just to retain their right to access of those contracts, the corporations will (by their own greed for money, considering Earth will be the only planet with a money economy), have according to earlier conversations such tight reign on even democratic Government that your own Government will disown you rather than face national economic collapse. We would do all we could to take you alive and make sure your trip to Earth was comfortable.

If you abhore becoming a free citizen of the Galaxy through a simple change of citizenship because you are having fantasies of personal empire, who would take orders from you when they have the right to freedom from you and your point of view?

Treason covers every crime, which is an attack on the Commonwealth's right to have it's citizens live free and equal and share of the responsibilities and benifits of Citizenship. Hierarchy is where the slavery is.

So do we watch as your own crew kick you out the airlock as you pass by lunar colony (embarassed at your efforts to violate the right of others to freedom from you)?

As you are not a citizen of the Commonwealth, We would of course offer you political assylum from the death penalty for terrorism you would face on your return to Earth. You might actually prefer life at the bottom of a very deep hole growing your own food.

Cobra Commander · 2005-03-21 20:43:04

This is one time that I'm in agreement with you Cobra Commander.

It happens to everybody sooner or later.

Now, let's to it.

By it's very structure, Your own Government would be required to prevent you from accessing space unless you became a citizen of the Commonwealth.

So now not content with the rest of the cosmos this Commonwealth has taken it upon itself to dictate terms to the sovereign states of Earth?

If you comandeered a vessel, then the Commonwealth would disolve the sovereignty of the corporation responsible for breech of contract.

So I steal a ship and the corporation that owned it, an entity I care not a trifle for and who had no role whatsoever in my absconding with their ship gets the blame? Wonderful! Disrupt the Commonwealth and destroy a greedy collaborationist corporation in one stroke!

By your very actions of having used force and terrorism, you would reveal your self as someone not interested in freedom and equality.

To which I would reply that I was driven to terrorism in order to secure freedom and equality for myself and those who accompanied me, assuming one can call ship-jacking terrorism. It's all in the eyes of the beholder. It comes down to who has the most guys with guns.

Just to retain their right to access of those contracts, the corporations will (by their own greed for money, considering Earth will be the only planet with a money economy), have according to earlier conversations such tight reign on even democratic Government that your own Government will disown you rather than face national economic collapse.

Again, if it comes to that we aren't terribly concerned with our own Terran government. However your answer is revealing, the Commonwealth clearly means to resort to threats against a nation merely because a few of its errent citizens seek self-determination on uninhabited land. Plunging it into economic collapse, bringing misery and starvation to countless millions all because a few of us contrarians refused to kneel. I'm sure posterity will write well of the Commonwealth.

We would do all we could to take you alive and make sure your trip to Earth was comfortable.

Much obliged.

If you abhore becoming a free citizen of the Galaxy through a simple change of citizenship because you are having fantasies of personal empire, who would take orders from you when they have the right to freedom from you and your point of view?

Whose giving orders? I'm not the one claiming dominion over all the cosmos and dictating despotic law. :;):

Treason covers every crime, which is an attack on the Commonwealth's right to have it's citizens live free and equal and share of the responsibilities and benifits of Citizenship. Hierarchy is where the slavery is.

Correct me if I missed something here, but if the Commonwealth can send people to live in holes on the Moon, people who presumably don't want to go, then they must somehow be compelled to go, implying a mechanism for not only formulating law but enforcing it. Does that not constitute hierarchy? The very fact that what you decree is considered the Law of the Commomwealth while my own ramblings are treasonous seems a strong indication that someone has placed himself rather high up in a hierarchy.

So do we watch as your own crew kick you out the airlock as you pass by lunar colony (embarassed at your efforts to violate the right of others to freedom from you)?

If I'm such a poor and despotic leader than perhaps I should be ejected into space. Likewise if... oh, I think we get the picture. :;):

As you are not a citizen of the Commonwealth, We would of course offer you political assylum from the death penalty for terrorism you would face on your return to Earth. You might actually prefer life at the bottom of a very deep hole growing your own food.

Yes, perhaps it's best to just claim the Moon right off and declare independence. We'll have a referendum on erecting a monument to the Commonwealth. May the rigid digit long stand in defiance, and freedom and justice for all.

srmeaney · 2005-03-21 21:11:03

So you have decided to invade the Commonwealth.

Having begun your campaign to invade the Galactic Commonwealth, will that be with or without Government Sponsorship?

Cobra Commander · 2005-03-22 06:04:35

Having begun your campaign to invade the Galactic Commonwealth, will that be with or without Government Sponsorship?

We'll see what the polls say.

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Re: Who Governs Mars? - Corporate Warlords vs. Commonwealth

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