New Mars Forums

I am wondering about Shad Balls as a tool in space, such as for Mars but other places as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shade_ball
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I think it may be that rather than spherical; these might be polygon.  Perhaps they could seat against each other face to face.

At least for Mars, I have felt that ice covered reservoirs may be the easiest place to establish a functioning biome on places like Mars.

But Perhaps Ice with Shade Balls embedded may be even better.

These could be mass created by some industrial process primarily using water and CO2, I think.

The materials for these devices are likely available in abundance on Mars.
https://www.bpf.co.uk/plastipedia/how-i … -made.aspx
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So, a reservoir on Mars might include an icy raft of plastic Shade Balls.

I think this may have greater flotation than ice and be more thermally insulating.  It may be that is the Shade Ball layer is thick enough the iicy Shade Ball layer may transition into liquid water.

But a layer will be required above this, probably flat, and including sublimation of ice by the dry thin air of Mars.

It may be that above this, a layer of soil may be useful.

Then to put above this would be solar equipment of various sorts, and perhaps rectennas, to receive orbital power.

The water will probably have at least some salt in it.  I am interested in various sources for the water.  It is possible that Uranium Salts could be harvested by some future technology.
https://discoveryalert.com.au/uranium-s … tion-2025/
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Other substances such as Chlorine, Sodium and Lithium??? might be available by similar methods.

Fossil icy permafrost might serve as an asset.  This can line a body of water and prevent its water from sinking into the deeps of Mars.  So, this might allow for long lived larger bodies of water particularly near the poles of Mars.

It has been said that lots of water on Mars has settled down into cracks far below the surface.  We should not want more of the water to do that.  So permafrost is helpful.  Even under large bodies of water, it may persist for some time.

For smaller bodies of water, we might look to Buffalo ponds of North America.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_wallow
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To seal ponds and canals, we might simulate the hair and oils and organic matter mentioned in the quote above.

So, if power satellites sun synchronous, could send power to Mars, the polar areas could be included.  And as I have suggested before laser systems might make the polar ice caps of Mars like Swiss Cheeze.  Structures that could hold Oxygen and also perhaps robots.

The water extracted could be used to fill bodies of water covered in the manner I have suggested.

The basic water body can then hold substructures such as diving bells, filled with air or partitions filled with water of altered properties, friendly to living things.

I think the use of Chemosynthetic and artificial light are obtainable.  It might also be possible to pipe light into the water below the shade balls, using fiber optics.  Perhaps at an average amount around that of 5% of that of Earth.

These bodies of water and ice tunnels would offer pressurized and warmed spaces for humans and also robots to function to over time further improve Mars to be suitable to a solar civilization.

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Greenhouse gasses released from these bodies of water then may assist in terraforming Mars.  Perhaps increasing the air pressure by as much as 2.5X.

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In relation to the prior few posts, it is apparent that if you might play this game in the hill sphere of Jupiter, taking apart Callisto and Ganymede, if you like.

A Laser Beam from a energy source, even if attenuated over distance might be refocused by the concave mirror.  So, then this would be a form of Solar Moth perhaps.

Solar Moth: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE

So, perhaps indeed continually pulling desired types of mass into the inner solar system.

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Robert, and oftherock,

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That's not nice.

I cannot speak for poorly developed Alpha males and Karens that are elder, but you are quite welcome to the stress.

If we believe the stories that are currently told about a future abundance, then it is not going to be a big problem to share the work load.  As for me, I want very little of it.  But I do need some $$$.

I grew up in a mining town.  It was not blue jeans, but dirty blue Jeans.  So, definitely low brow, and lower middle class with exceptions of some arrogant people.

I don't need that much, so far not too bad for medical costs.

You also will get older, or nature will sort you out of reality. 

Crystaline Intelligence: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE
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This site is a outlet for me.  I do not care to accumulate stress as at my age stress would be a killer.

You can have all the jobs.  Wallow in the stress and then grow a brain and think better of it.

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In case you may think I am biased against Ukraine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwVLMZvpVUw
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I am not an enemy of Russia, but they have to row their own boat if they can.

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Thermal Super Critical CO2 engine as an alternative to solar panels.  Sure, whatever works best.

Potato Patato.

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So, while Deimos/Phobos/Mars may be early sources of hydrocarbon materials to supply to the Earth/Moon hill sphere, I think the big players will eventually be Ceres and the other not quite as large Asteroids.

The list of exceptional asteroids comes to mind again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e … _asteroids
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Many of these including Ceres have what is needed.

Energy will be no problem as mirrors can pump the energy concentrations up to what is suitable.

So, if you can make many solar sails out of Hydrocarbons with a thin Aluminum coating, you can then sail them to the Earth/Moon hill sphere on photons, I expect.  But they will start with slow acceleration without a boost.

I guess you could do a boost or a tow.

Depending on method the sails will be either deployed or bundled on launch.  High sudden acceleration such as a mass driver would require bundling and then unfurling.

A slower method could be to push it with a laser or particle beam.

A somewhat more traditional method would be to tow it with a big tank of water, and a power source, perhaps cracking the water into Hydrogen and Oxygen in small quantities along the way.  Perhaps the solar sail with an Aluminum coating could serve as a concentrating mirror at this stage and give solar concentration to solar panels so that the water could be cracked and burned.

Once the assembly got deeper into the sunlight and all the water was consumed, it might change over to sailing on Photons.

So, this might work well from Ceres as we expect that Ceres has massive amounts of water available.

So, you need to construct transformable solar sails in mass at Ceres, and also water tanks, solar panels and what else is needed.

And by this means then to move these materials into the Earth/Moon hill sphere.

The sails themselves would be rendered into Hydrocarbons and Aluminum.  I presume that the tank and solar panels would be also rendered as useful.  It would be very likely to pick up valuable metals along the way and incorporate them into the trip to be distributed to the Earth/Moon hill sphere.

Eventually similar for other inner planets as well.

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So, the whole Asteroid Belt is usable for this, and after that the moons of the outer planets.

So, I guess I will chase this around some more.

https://exclav.es/2023/08/24/sunshine-maps-revisited/
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The three ways that power could be sent to the Earth's surface that I am aware of are:
-Orbital Mirrors.
-Microwaves.
-Lasers.

Typically, the idea is to beam power to where it is needed.  This would often be to cloudy areas though, which in some cases would be counterproductive.

But places like the Great Basin in North America, might be thought of as a sort of window in the sky.

And of course if you have looked into this topic, you know that I am interested in Cisterns and Carbon Capture (At a profit), for places like the Great Basin.

Carbon Capture at best has been to do power to Gas or other fuels.  At worst it is a hairshirt intended to make the population of western nations poorer.

If you have a cistern in the desert that is associated with productive Carbon Capture, then it may be sensible also to beam space power to it, as there is less in the nature of cloudy skies.  It is more like a window with shades open.

This is the type of behaviors I would like to see more of: https://globalenergyprize.org/en/2025/0 … di-arabia/
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They should be proud!

Now, what if you had these solar panels on top of a floating island, and pulled the evaporating moisture into a cold condenser?

I have made this variation on the covered pond:

Instead of holding heat on the bottom hold cold.

So, perhaps not relying entirely on rainwater, but absorbing moisture into the gel at night.  Then the gel cools the solar panels during the day, and if you capture the moisture coming off you can perhaps condense it into cold salt water.

In reality if you wanted to go extreme, the water at the bottom of the pond might be as cold as Don Juan Pond in Antarctica.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Juan_Pond
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Such very cold very salty water would suck almost all water from the air.  But it would take a lot of energy to pull the temperatures down that far.

Water as salty as the Arctic Ocean and nearly as cold would be more sensible.  With a layer of less salty warmer water on top, it would be well insulated.

And you could glow Algae or perhaps even Macroalgae in it.

I am thinking heat pumps of course.  Presuming that batteries can store energy efficiently then you could run a heat pump at night and dump heat into the night sky, cooling the bottom water.  In the drawing I have distinguished between solar panels and radiators.

The gel in the solar panels might absorb moisture from the night air and also be cooled at night, and then during the day could cool the solar panels, and release the moisture.  The moisture might be collected then and condensed into the cold salty water, which might be presented to it in a condensing device.

I did say batteries for night power, but it might be that power might be beamed down at night.  This might contradict the moisture gathering function, but maybe it could be on and off to cycle many times during a night.

Of the power might be beamed down nearby to the covered cistern.

The water is salty of course, but could be distilled to provide fresh water.  But in that case the grey water would need to go back into the cistern.

So, the objective of capturing Carbon to build cistern structure might make sense, where substances like plastic and Carbon parts might be created from Carbon pulled from the atmosphere.  During the process of condensing moisture into the cold salt water that cold salt water may absorb CO2 from the air.

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I have been focusing on the new SpaceX direction to the Moon first and as its own purpose as well.

Elon Musk seems to be of the opinion that the Moon will be found to have sufficient Hydrogen and Carbon for a civilization.
I think it is more likely than not.

But I have also been thinking about photon sailing.  I wondered if it would be possible to make a fabric out of Carbon that could sail on the suns photons.  It probably is possible, but I don't know about performance.  Things already contemplated might be a better option.

It turns out that out Moon and many of the inner asteroids may lack some of the materials needed to create solar sails, but every other world in reach seems to have them.

Mercury, Venus, Deimos/Phobos/Mars, and about 40% of the inner asteroid belt objects may have what is needed.

The point is if solar sails sail in order to bring their substances to be used in the Earth/Moon, orbits, and on the Moon, they may compliment what can be found on the Moon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_sail
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My understanding is that a plastic film such as mylar is given a think coating of Aluminum to make it reflective.

The chemical formula for Mylar?
https://www.xometry.com/resources/sheet/what-is-mylar/
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyimide
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I think that Kapton may have the usual suspects but may also have a small amount of Nitrogen in it's chemical structure.

The point is if a factory could be established that could make solar sails at a non-Earth/Moon location these might be able to fly to the Earth/Moon orbits and be rendered into what the Moon somewhat at least lacks.

If coming from Mercury, then a mass driver from Mercury would have to supply a factory in orbit.  The sunlight would really push the sails.

IF coming from Deimos/Phobos/Mars, or the Asteroid Belt, then some sort of boost method might be used to start the flight and then the sails would use photon propulsion to finish the flight.

So that would be a way to mix the Organics of other worlds with the materials of our Moon.

I think that could work out, particularly if the process was mostly robotic.

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This is something that I have pondered for some time:

Can you land a cylinder like a Starship?

So, you might have to use some active cooling for this but I would like to see a version where the "Locomotive" only lands back on Earth.

That would be the propulsion systems including the propellant tanks and engines.

The "3rd" stage could also be equipped to land on Earth or Mars but more likely would not be.

So, this version would not be expected to land any cargo on Earth or Mars, using the "Locomotive".

An enlarged version of the Stoke Space 2nd stage might be hosted though.

Or you could make a Stainless-Steel Moon ship with it's own engines.

Or you could make something out of Carbon for the "3rd" stage, perhaps getting assistance from Rocket Lab Neutron Rocket build methods.

I see it as being a plus as you need to retain less propellants to land, and the tower does not need to catch as much mass.  Or if you land on a barge at sea the "Stack" is not as tall or heavy.

But can you enter the atmosphere with a Cylinder shape?

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So, the idea of Methane as a transferred commodity on Mars.

Cast Basalt Pipes?

https://www.miningequipmentsupplies.com … ast-basalt
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If you had a tar-like substance as a joint compound, then you could establish a methane pipe network all over Mars.

There appear to be consumable ice deposits on Mars and perennial ice deposits.

The Polar Ice Caps are Perennial, possibly Korolev Crater is Perennial.

The others are fossil and therefor consumable, not naturally renewable.

On Mars, rather than irrigating with water which can freeze, I suggest pipelines for Methane.

More difficult would be parallel pipelines for Oxygen or Synthetic Earth-Like Air.

Power beamed from orbit to the ice deposits could make it possible to synthesize the Methane and Oxygen/Synthetic Air.

Methane piped to a location can allow the creation of water, and so then what is needed for a particular resource access.  You can always get Oxygen from the CO2 of the atmosphere of Mars.  But for a greater cost you might pipe in Oxygen or Synthetic Air.

So, for the situation of Methane leaks, this would be supportive of the terraforming of Mars.

Beamed power might also contain signal, so it might be involved in AI about Mars.

Orbital AI may need some extra radiation shielding.  Hydrogen from Mars and Oxygen from Deimos or Phobos could provide water for that, or regolith from the two moons.  But some AI might be embedded into the Mars regolith, I suppose.

It may be posible to access deep burried ice on Mars: https://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration … _s_equator
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Could power beamed down from orbit power electrical current flow into the ice mass to melt it?

So, you can make electric conductors from Carbon from the atmospheric CO2.  So, maybe space two electrodes on the surface by a number of km, then impose electric power between them.  At first, perhaps not too conductive in the ground, but salty brine may develop along the lines of conduction.

So, then to generate an Artesian Flow of water.  So, then an argument on the surface between artesian water flow up into a body of water and evaporation from the ice on top of that water.

Putting poly vapor barrier on top of the ice and regolith on top of that.  Not too much regolith.  It has to not weight the ice down too much.

But then as a lake grows you could throttle the amount of electric flow, to control the amount of artesian water flow.

So then to build a Methane and O2/Air production facility.  The water supply should last for quite a while.

The water extracted, the "Lake" will descend into a pit that gradually forms.

Water at Candor Chaos might be done this way first.  It is much closer to the surface.  But we do not know how deep it is.

Sun-Synchronous power platforms in orbit will be able to deliver power to various ice bodies on Mars including near the equator and at the poles.

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Suppose a sea in a dry land with it mostly covered.  I have previously suggested rotating solar floating islands.

But for Mars and let's speculate 100% cover, maybe for the Salton Sea, a 98% covering.  Perhaps just some beaches on the shoreline.

Evaporation 98% inhibited???  Not known.  You could have rotators or not.

On Mars rotating floating islands would leave water open to boil or evaporate into the thin atmosphere.  Even if the Atmosphere becomes 2.5 times as thick as it is it would be so.  You could live with that if you had enough makeup water.  But Mars would be more suitable to fixed robotic solar arrays.  That is the gravity is .38 that of Earth, we don't expect hail, and the winds are not much of a threat.  Dust is a problem in both worlds but much worse on Mars.  We would expect to have cleaning robots to groom the solar arrays all the time, I expect.

On Mars we might have something like floating islands, only as spinning hovercraft.  A hover platform could be sun following by periodic jets of air under its skirt and an actuation to spin to follow the sun.  Simply compressing Mars atmosphere and a lift and spin event every so many minutes during the day.  Such hover platforms would not have to be over water reservoirs but could be.

OK, then I think means to have a little sea will exist on both Mars and as similar we might look at the Salton Sea.

I have speculated before that if you covered 98% of the Salton Sea with floating platforms that inhibit evaporation, the Salton Sea would swell up and deepen until the salinity was compatible with some forms of salt tolerant creatures.

It always amused me that people may talk about putting artificial lights into a presumed sea on Europa, but will not think it wise for Mars or indeed for the Salton Sea.

But let's imagine 5% light.  Then add Oxygen and Acetate.  Now can you grow Macroalgae???  That is a maybe.  But you could grow microalgae it seems.

Your 5% light could come though fiber optics or windows or artificial lights.

In post #18 I have a drawing: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 07#p237907
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You don't have to do all of it but you might.

The solar panels and the floating cover will reject some of the heat of the day.

But you could use heat pumps during the sunshine to maintain salt gradients and temperatures.  You might cool the solar panels during the day with a cool fluid flow and push heat into the bottom pink layer.

During the night you might pull heat from the pink layer and flow it though the panels to reject heat and to generate electricity.

All the time you could grow Algae of some kind in the blue layer.

Or if you prefer, forget the heated bottom layer and just have temperate temperatures at the bottom of the Salton Sea, and grow Macroalgae, (If it is possible) as vegetables.

Salt is always accumulating in the Salton Sea, but if you allow the sea to keep expanding you can keep the level habitable.

But at some point perhaps you flow it to another basin in the Great Basin and keep expanding.  Rather than irrigating crops with the Colorado River perhaps you just keep building more covered seas.

And of course, I consider this how we may first get productive farmland on Mars.

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