Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other.

Void · 2025-04-16 14:04:51

I request this topic but will without negative feelings comply with alterations such as removal or combining to another topic.

I am thinking at the moment of a Starboat connected to a Starship. But other methods might evolve.

We already think that robotic Starships can land on Mars ahead of time an compile a collection of materials for a life support for humans and their robots.

So, a Starboat might be all that you need to land people on arrival to Mars.

But it would be small, so in order to accommodate more passengers/crew, I suggest that a special sort of Starship could be linked nose to nose with the Starboat, but would not land on Mars.

The Starship might have its engines reduced once in Earth Orbit.
While it would have main Oxygen and Methane tanks filled for launch to Mars, in Earth orbit, then when those tanks were empty they would be purged, and special hardware would all humans to enter the tanks, with equipment to make them reasonably habitable.

In order to be able to spin the nose to nose assembly more than an airlock is needed to allow the connection to be safe, so some cables of some sort.

The Starboat would be upside down in gravity once you did the spin, but a furnishings for the Starship would be appropriate to the artificial gravity.

And from this point there are choices.

1) Upon Arrival to Mars, the Starship is disposed of with the passengers and crew landing in the Starboat, at a well built base. Prior to landing the nose area must be safe for heat shield purposes.

Or....

2) Some method of recovery of the Starship.
-Of course, the Starship might land on Mars separately if method and motive exist for that.
-Or the Starship might go into orbit of Mars, separately if method and motive exist for that.
-Or the Starship might take a 2 year free return to Earth and have some sort of capture to Earth or it's orbits, if means and desire for that exist. In an emergency then the Starboat might remain coupled to the Starship to also do that free return.

The Starship might have means to navigate to Earth, such as electric, or even header tanks.
It may or may not have heatshield and flaps to land on Earth.
Or perhaps some sort of ballistic capture to orbit may be possible.

In the event of a need to have passengers and crew ride free return to Earth, the assembly would have some artificial gravity which would make it more likely that people would survive the event.

***You could to the above with two full sized Starships. But by purging the Oxygen and Methane tanks of one, then you could make more habitation space, and render the artificial gravity more substantial.

***During Earth Orbit Launch to Mars, extra hardware and water/food could be lashed to the outside of the assembly and be brought inside while in deep space. This might be things like chairs, beds, protective materials and such.

Where Dr. Johnson has indicated that one Starship spinning end over end might achieve .5 g synthetic gravity, two starships joined nose to nose, where one of them has its propellant tanks converted to living space could likely do more.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-04-16 14:32:41)

tahanson43206 · 2025-04-16 17:33:41

For Void re new topic....

There are now 37 pages of topis in this Category. I just finished reading all 37 pages.

To my surprise, your new topic is unique. A multiple ship expedition may be called by other names.

A convoy is a multiple ship assembly that follows a particular military discipline. The Magellan expedition around the world had five ships, of which only one returned to Spain. Columbus famously had three ships, two of which returned to Spain.

I think that both Columbus and Magellan were leading "fleets", but they might have qualified as "flotillas".

A military expedition can be called an armada. Spain, France and England all mounted armadas at various times.

This post is reserved for an index to posts that NewMars members may contribute over time.

Fleets would seem to be a reasonable word for a group of space vessels. I don't think flotilla is a good fit.

Squadron will work for military clusters.

Armada might work, at some point.

Index:

(th)

Void · 2025-04-16 20:16:57

Very good and thank you (th).

I need to correct something in the post #1:

With a Starship and Starboat linked in rotation, the Barycenter of the rotation would be in the nose of the Starship, so, the Synthetic Gravity in the Starboat would be normal as of the orientation of the Starboat on the surface of a world with significant gravity.

And I agree with you (th), it may be that several of these assemblies could travel near to each other for reason of mutual assistance, in the case of some types of trouble.

Upon launch from Earth orbit to Mars, the passengers/crew would be in the Starboat and rather cramped. As the propellants of the Starship were consumed, then the next mode is to purge the tanks on the Starship of vapors, and to then open methods to bring supplies into the tanks from outside. Perhaps with robots.

This then requires some sort of airlock that will be compatible with the propellant tanks having propellants in them at first.

Then with the exterior supplies brought into the Starship, the passengers/crew could spread out into extra space.

Upon arrival to Mars, presuming a base that was prepared to receive them and take care of them the passengers/crew would get into the Starboat for a small time period and land on Mars.

The fate of the Starship has many possibilities that I have mentioned in post #1.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-04-16 20:26:44)

Void · 2025-04-17 08:32:12

Just to complete the notions a bit more.

I already said that this scheme might be done with two full sized Starships.

One would be converted in route to Mars, the other would not be.

I think that once a ship was converted to inhabit its propellant tanks, it would be very hard to return it to its original character. Even so, if such a Starship did have the Header Tanks, it might be able to land on Mars, and I think then stay there.

Since SpaceX and Elon Musk, don't seem interested in Starboat, it may be that two Starships flying in linked pairs, may be useful.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-04-17 08:35:39)

Void · 2025-04-18 08:36:20

The direction SpaceX expresses at this time seems to be towards robots as the first inhabitants of Mars, just as now, but I will presume that a modification(s) of Optimus would be at the heart of that. In support of that I will assume many Starships will land on Mars with hardware and those will stay on Mars for the most part.

This then supposes that the first human arrivals will not be required to set everything up. At the very least there could be a supply of water for life support if not for fuel.

Also ships that have landed could be set up to cook tanks with Oxygen and CO, perhaps in gas state. That would require a power supply, and of course the ability to process CO2 into O2 and O2.

It is possible that if these materials were available, then some sort of precision fermentation could be achieved, where, some sort of basic food stuffs could be accumulated.

Before the humans arrived, perhaps this much could be done.

Small scall mining of ice would have been demonstrated, and the potential to increase the mining assessed.

So, this might be a minimum startup situation, where some Oxygen and CO as fuel is stored, and some potable water is available, and maybe some bulk food is ready for use.

So, if a dual ship method was used, I have one particular version to consider in this post.

OK, this may contain some practicality issues:

So, if two ships could be linked and put under spin. One would have its main propellant tanks to be habitable.

That one would have the highest synthetic gravity at the furthest extension in a tank, from the Barycenter of spin.

In one possible case the Lander would have the heat shield and flaps, to be able to land on Mars, but the Orbiter, might not have those and will need large enough header tanks to get into orbit of Mars.

This would allow simultaneous habitation of Mars itself and perhaps setting up some orbital structures.

Granted this is going to be a load on propellants, to get such a mass into orbit without aerobraking.

But if two ships could be supposed to host a total of 200 humans, the "Population" could be spread out into the tanks of the Orbital Ship, during passage, and to land then the Lander Ship then needs facilities for 200 people to be landed, and then offloaded to a base on the surface capable of giving them life support.

Maybe a few would go with the Orbiter, maybe there can be an attempt to develop Deimos and Phobos.

Some of this stuff could be swapped around, where the lander might be the one converted to have humans in the propellant tanks. And then you would have a working Starship in orbit. Of course then you have to get propellants to it, somehow for it to be of further use.

Just some stuff to consider.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-04-18 09:03:16)

Void · 2025-04-20 07:00:41

I have been thinking about NEUTRON, 2ND STAGE.

They cannot return to the surface of Earth on their own. However, do they have further potential for value?

I suppose that Starship could bring them down, or they could be refilled to a new purpose in orbit.

Easy to say, but to repurpose them, I anticipate that an efficient way to move them to a centralized position in orbit may have value. I suspect that the use of an electric rocket tug would perhaps be justified for that purpose.

https://www.reddit.com/r/spaceflight/co … ?rdt=46570 Quote: 6kmmm7cnjgp91.png?width=1080&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=4de21ed2f7afbc5f3d51f14e91c00b941f12b988

It has a 5-meter diameter, and a Vacuum Archimedes engine.

https://www.rocketlabusa.com/updates/ro … hitecture/
Quote:

Designed as an expendable upper stage for now, Neutron’s second stage is a six-meter-long carbon composite structure with a single vacuum optimized Archimedes engine.

Image Quote:

The device is light weight and the engine is supposed to be durable.

After it has done it's work, it may not be in a convenient orbit. However, I think quite often the practice is to dump such a stage into the atmosphere to burn up.

The hope is that Starship could support an electric rocket tug to retrieve some of these to a reuse situation.

Starship could probably refill a modified version.

Granted it might be more complex than desired, but these things might be ganged together and refilled to use to send a payload somewhere, I think. Serial, or Parallel, or Wheel.

This would be a two rocket propulsion wheel:

So, many more could be attached. During a mission 2nd stages could be expelled or held. They would be lost if expended, but if it were desired to reuse them then they might be retained, and the whole assembly would go back to a refurbishment point.

So, I do not guarantee that this is a wise plan, but at least I took the time to review the potential.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-04-21 10:25:40)

Void · 2025-04-20 09:53:47

I guess I am doing wish lists. Things I might hope could appear.

I think that SpaceX and Rocket Lab could collaborate on some things, a frenemies more or less.

In the previous post I suggested reuse of Neutron 2nd Stages.

There is something, that I think that SpaceX might eventually do, if they have large enough sea platforms. But I think that Rocket Lab, using Neutron 1st stage, might do it much sooner and work out the kinks.

Rocket Lab now intends to catch Neutron 1st stage on barges. It has been my notion that rather than bringing the barge back in the thing to do would be to refill the Neutron 1st stage and fly it retrograde back to the original launch site. So, the barge it landed on would need means to refill the Neutron 1st stage. Methane and Oxygen, I believe.

The Neutron 1st stage retains it's "Hungry Hippo Fairings", so it would be streamlined to make that flight, but without a payload, it would not need a full refilling to do it.

I have to wonder if eventually Starship Superheavy could have a version that would have "Hungry Hippo Fairings" as well, and that a Carbon Starship could be fitted inside, as a 2nd stage. It would not be intended for atmospheric entry, but might work very well for the Moon, and maybe asteroids.

Superheavy, being Stainless Steel, apparently does not need much for heat shielding. And making a Carbon type Starship to send to orbit and not to land could have benefits.

Obviously, it would have less inertia.

It is worth mentioning that Carbon is a substance that will work with the Neumann Drive, if that ever gets sized up.

So, technically a Starship converted to a sort of Neutron Ship method, might be able to feed an electric rocket propulsion device. I am guessing that Carbon might be easier to convert to propellants for a Neumann Drive than would be Stainless Steel.

And I am not putting either company down. Each has come up with impressive technology that I fell might work together in some cases, to produce a significant benefit.

If it were to be air braked to Earth Orbit a "Overshield" of Lunar Materials might protect it. Otherwise the Carbon being of less inertia than Stainless Steel the inertia will be less. Indeed, if Neumann Drive were sized up, then such Carbon Ships could be brought back to Lower Earth Orbits by using electric rocket drive. And then to refill from a depot and perhaps lift significant cargo to a higher orbit or to the Moon.

This is "Food for Thought", I feel. If Carbon can be used for propulsion then the ships could eventually after a full service life end up being salvaged to make propellants for other Carbon Ships.

Of course the Raptors and other parts could be recycled.

Neumann Drive: https://neumannspace.com/

A Carbon Starship of the type I suggest would not have heat shield, or Flaps or Motors, which should drop it's price.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-04-20 10:24:05)

Void · 2025-04-20 17:30:27

So, I like to imagine a future of good progress.

I think that both concepts of durable Stainless Steel and then also lightweight options such as Carbon structure are going to be good, and maybe even better in combinations.

But even then there are many wild cards which may shift the path of the future from what we may expect to other things. Ideally to better things.

I can name Dream Chaser, and advance robotics as being some of the emerging wild cards.

The Dream Chaser can provide a special service that neither SpaceX or Rocket Lab can provide at this time.

While we may imagine a growing population on Mars and some other worlds, for the moment I think the best path for animated structures in orbit and the Moon favor an expansion into robotics. But of course even on Earth we are going to wan to have greater amounts of low-cost robotic labor.

And many other things may show up.

We have chances of a great deal of a great deal.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-04-20 18:42:24)

Void · 2025-04-21 10:20:42

I am reading of impressive progress on the SpaceX Stainless Steel Structure methods, but I am also developing an interest in the Rocket Lab Carbon build method.

I would not for any reason argue to pick one and put down the other. These together could go a long way towards space capabilities.

https://3dprintingindustry.com/news/3d- … er-233751/ Quote:

Aerospace
3D printing ‘World’s Largest’ carbon composite rocket on Rocket Lab’s 90-ton 3D printer
Alex Tyrer-Jones October 21st 2024 - 4:58pm 0 0

Quote:

According to Rocket Lab, while it takes several weeks to build a stage 2 dome using conventional, manual methods, the AFP machine can produce one in just 24 hours. The company anticipates it will save over 150,000 hours when constructing rocket structures with AFP technology.

Quote: (From post #6):

https://www.reddit.com/r/spaceflight/co … ?rdt=46570 Quote:
It has a 5-meter diameter, and a Vacuum Archimedes engine.
https://www.rocketlabusa.com/updates/ro … hitecture/
Quote:
Designed as an expendable upper stage for now, Neutron’s second stage is a six-meter-long carbon composite structure with a single vacuum optimized Archimedes engine.
Image Quote:

The Stainless Steel, has its advantages, but I would be very interested in Carbon build for Lunar activities.

So, I am thinking that for a Lunar Lander, these might have merit. A crash or onetime use to land on the Moon would leave behind useful materials like Carbon to be recycled on the Moon.

It might even be worthwhile to lift them to orbit using Starship.

I don't have the specs for these things so I cannot be certain, but I would guess you could build landers with 1, 3, 5 or maybe more of these 2nd stage units incorporated. A 2nd Stage unit in a centered position, might be gimbaled in order to assist in landing capabilities.

Such landers might be supported by a Starship in orbit of the Moon. Perhaps refilled in Lunar Orbits or not. Maybe the landers would see a one time landing of some hardware or consumables.

Just a capability that may be of use.

And then perhaps as a joint project perhaps SpaceX and Rocket Lab could make a much larger version of the 2nd Stage, that could ride up on the Superheavy, and perhaps that Superheavy might be modified to have the Hungry Hippo method of Fairings, like Rocket Lab's Neutron.

Some rather interesting landers for the Moon might be fabricated from that setup, I think.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-04-21 10:47:48)

Void · 2025-04-21 11:25:06

I realize that it is a long shot, but if landers could be made of 2nd stages of Neutron, then perhaps an opportunity would exist to incorporate something like a modified Dragon, or maybe even an Orion capsule, to make a method to land on the Moon and ascend. I would feel more comfortable if this were supported by a Starship in orbit of the Moon.

But either capsule then might be able to do the return to Earth from Lunar orbit.

I will claim that this would align just a bit more to what Dr. Zubrin has recently suggested. It is not a Starboat, but maybe a poor mans method to get something done by reusing existing or soon to exist hardware.

Ending Pending

Void · 2025-04-21 11:52:05

A video about Rocket Lab and Neutron, as it happens: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … cb0c9c120f
Quote:

ROCKET LAB Makes Major Breakthrough That Shocks the Industry! Spacex Blue Orgin Reacts
YouTube
NR Studio

So, I also think that they have some potential going into the future.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-04-21 11:56:52)

Void · 2025-04-23 07:48:41

This video makes some claims that might have importance to understand: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … 23b4a504dc Quote:

SpaceX Starship: ABSURDLY Overpowered! 100 Tons to Mars WITHOUT Refueling
YouTube
Future Space
2 vi

I am pasting it here for further considerations.

Pause.................

Isaac Arthur has some important information in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y47MMNq … saacArthur Quote:

Moon: Industrial Complex
Isaac Arthur
811K subscribers

At "1.5 minutes inside the video", a description of the fuel needs Earth/Moon to lift a load off each world. The evaluation has to do with Hydrogen/Oxygen propulsions. 12/.7 is the ratio given, and may involve the Hydrogen in the evaluation.

So, I think that to get Oxygen to a Starship, the Moon may be the best deal. But that depends on things like labor sources, and where the Starship is located. If it is in LEO, then you have to bring the Oxygen from the Moons orbits to LEO. That is an additional effort and cost.

If you could get the Starship to a Lunar orbit, then perhaps the loading of Lunar Oxygen would be considered reasonable economically.

So, one way to do that would be to fill the Starship in a filling orbit of the Earth with only enough Oxygen to get to a Lunar Orbit, but with an abundance of Methane.

Another option might be to bring Methane to Lunar orbit using an Electric Rocket.

Methane or Carbon delivered to the Moons surface could be used with Solar Pyrolysis to extract Oxygen from Lunar ore.

I agree that water at the Lunar poles may be a massive prize, but depending on how much there is, and how hard it is to process, it may be wise to reserve it for use on the Moon.

But if you could land Carbon on the Moon, you might use Solar Pyrolysis at the Equator to extract Oxygen as CO2.

Then to extract the Oxygen from the CO2, and launch that to Orbit from the Equator which has an advantage to getting it from the poles.

You could either get Carbon or CO back out of the CO2 you produced and use that again to do Pyrolysis on more Moon regolith.

From Post #9, from post #6: Quote: (From post #6):

https://www.reddit.com/r/spaceflight/co … ?rdt=46570 Quote:
It has a 5-meter diameter, and a Vacuum Archimedes engine.
https://www.rocketlabusa.com/updates/ro … hitecture/
Quote:
Designed as an expendable upper stage for now, Neutron’s second stage is a six-meter-long carbon composite structure with a single vacuum optimized Archimedes engine.
Image Quote:

Using something like Neutron's 2nd stage if you put Carbon landing legs on it, and if its engine method could be made suitable for a Lunar landing, then you have the remnants of the Methane Fuel, and also the Carbon of the tank and the Carbon of the landing legs to work with.

Some metal parts like engines would have value. So, if you could fill the tank with a maximum of Methane practical, and the just necessary amount of Oxygen to land with a margin, you might have a source of Methane to make water with, and a larger source of Carbon for the pyrolysis of Lunar Regolith.

If a version of Superheavy from SpaceX, could be modified to do the Neutron process, then very large sized versions of Neutron 2nd Stage could be launched to LEO, for similar reasons. To carry Methane and a minimum amount of Oxygen necessary to go to the Moon and land at the Equator. The tanks and landing legs to be cannibalized for the pyrolysis of regolith. As I have said, a remnant Methane delivered could be processed into water using Lunar Oxygen, and the Carbon of the Methane could be used in more Pyrolysis of Lunar Regolith.

What would be done with the metal parts is open for debate.

You would want a constant input of more Carbon to the Moon and a little Hydrogen, as the Pyrolysis process will not be able to recycle the Carbon with 100% efficiency.

Eventually if electric propulsion matures, it might be used to move the Carbon Tanks with Carbon legs and an engine(s), to Lunar orbit from LEO.

That might make it even more efficient fuel wise.

I would still suppose that efforts could be made to access the resources of the Lunar Poles, but this equator method might have it's own justification to exist.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-04-23 09:09:00)

Void · 2025-04-23 09:41:00

I took a look at the use of Carbon in spacecraft. It seems more extensive than I thought. It can be used in rocket nozzles and heat shields along with more common uses in fuel tanks and I suppose landing legs.

So, possibly ships mostly made of Carbon could be landed on the Moon, for the purposes I expressed in the just previous post.

Ending Pending

Void · 2025-04-23 10:22:40

The previous posts involving Carbon might offer an interesting business case for Mars.

If the Moon and most inner system asteroids are stony and some are metal, they may lack Carbon more then they lack Hydrogen. The solar wind seems to implant a little Hydrogen into the regolith of many asteroids, but not much Carbon.

Solar Pyrolysis using Carbon though may be very useful in processing Lunar Regolith and Stony/metal asteroid materials.

A spacecraft mass manufactured on the surface of Mars primarily of Carbon and Plastics, could be an export from Mars, that could help to unlock the wealth that could be in the materials of the Moon and many asteroids.

A list of Earth Crossing Asteroids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_E … _asteroids

So, if primarily using robot labor, these things could be produced in mass, as SSTO, devices which could be collected in Mars orbit, they could then be filled with Argon, and electric propulsion could be used to move the spacecraft shells to places where Carbon would have high value, to extract resources from stony and metal Near Earth Orbit Asteroids.

Those mining operations could export processed materials to Venus, Earth, and Mars. Mars would be able to buy things from Earth/Moon, and other places by creating a "Carbon Currency".

The ships would include some plastics so Hydrogen also could be transported in the plastics of the ships.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-04-23 10:28:22)

Void · 2025-04-24 10:33:54

Due to previous posts, I am developing the notion of a dual Moon access process.
1) Polar Water.
2) Carbon imported to the equator of the Moon.

1) Polar Water will often be a one time use item if it is to be used for rocket fuel.
2) Carbon though expensive to import, can be reused multiple times for an economic benefit, except if it is also used as a fuel.

A dry equator would not look very attractive to a human powered economy. However, for a robot dominated economy, Carbon could be very helpful. I do not say that polar water facilitated economies at the poles will not occur, but suggest that the Equator might be facilitated very nicely if Carbon can be imported at a reasonable price, for the merit it might have in processing Lunar materials.

In theory, based on Elon Musk's historical notions that Starship might be able to go SSTO, if it lacked a heat shield, legs, and a significant cargo, I will not rule SSTO out.

But more likely the model presented by Rocket Lab with a 2 Stage Neutron may be of value, if the 2nd stage could be repurposed.

I have argued that it could be possible to size up a 2nd stage primarily of Carbon, to launch on a modified Superheavy, by SpaceX.

In either case the 2nd stage given assistance could be used to do work in lifting cargo to LEO, and then the 2nd stages could be converted for a second mission to the Moon.

Using Electric rockets, it might be possible to fill the Oxygen Tanks of these devices with Argon, and the Methane tanks with Methane. Then they would fly to the Moon orbits, and be refilled with Oxygen, perhaps from the Moon, and then they would land, perhaps at the equator of the Moon.

Solving boiloff will be desired.

The equator would primarily be populated by robots, but maybe just a few humans. Water needs would be relatively small. But for water needed, residual Methane might be reacted with Oxygen to create water, and CO/CO2.

If sufficient Methene were landed, then it might be possible to use these ships again to lift Lunar Oxygen to Lunar Orbits. I believe that the equator of the Moon has an advantage over the poles for this activity.

Crashed or worn out ships might be recycled for their materials, including Carbon of course.

I see solar Pyrolysis of regolith, assisted by Carbon as a way to reduce Lunar ores of Oxygen. Then the CO/CO2 produced, could be processed to recover the Carbon again, along with Oxygen.

I expect that the Carbon is not infinitely recyclable but might be reused many times.

I suppose that as soon as it might become possible to get Carbon from other parts of the solar system for a lower price then that might occur.

Keep in mind that one of the cost savers in this scheme is the presumed very low cost of robot labor on the Moon and also the Earth, which will drop the price of hardware, and reduce the cost of extracting materials from the Moon.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-04-24 10:53:25)

Void · 2025-04-24 11:09:36

I wonder if microwave, Carbon assisted Pyrolysis would be the better way to go. This could be powered both by solar and nuclear, and allows the container to be cooler than the regolith being processed, perhaps.

Also, I suspect that Metalysis, using Carbon might be a more developed version: https://metalysis.com/

Perhaps some combination of methods, for instance heating the container to a certain heat using solar heat, and then heating the regolith/Carbon mix a bit more with microwaves. Add some sort of Metalysis process?

Well anyway something should be possible.

Ending Pending

Converting CO2 back to Organic materials, and Oxygen might be done by organic method, such as Algae during day, but that needs some water.

Otherwise, CO2 can be split by electrolysis or possibly plasma methods I believe.

Moxie might be used or a plasma reaction by simulating Mars conditions on the Moon: https://www.freethink.com/space/produce-oxygen-on-mars
Quote:

A plasma reactor could help astronauts breathe on Mars
A new system could create oxygen, nitrogen, and other crucial supplies from Mars’ atmosphere.

The two things desired are to build structure on the Moon, and to Export Oxygen for ships like Starship.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-04-24 11:20:31)

Void · 2025-04-24 13:15:18

I want to chase this around a bit more.

If we get to a situation where robot labor is on average 1/25th the cost of human labor and make spacecraft with that low cost labor, then the idea of exporting Carbon to the Moon becomes less silly. Especially if the Carbon earns it way in transit, by being a great deal of the structure of the ship.

1/25th is just a number I pulled out of the air. If SpaceX employees earn an average or $25.00 per hour, and robots can do much of the work for $1.00 per hour, then 1/25th perhaps.

A starship disposed of can lift ??? Tons to orbit.
https://payloadspace.com/payload-resear … iguration/
Quote:

According to SpaceX, Starship is currently capable of hauling ~200 tons to LEO in an expendable configuration, making it the most capable rocket ever developed. It would take nine Falcon 9 expendable flights to deliver the same payload volume as one expendable Starship flight.

But there are some unanswered questions. 1) A largely Carbon stripped down Starship would be lighter than a Stainless Steel one, so then >200 Tons, I presume. 2) By Expendable Starship do they expend the Superheavy also to get to 200 tons? (I hope not).

Playing a game, if a Carbon Starship had 3 propellant tanks, then Oxygen, Methane, Argon. If the ship could get to LEO with leftover, Oxygen, Methane, and all of the Argon, could an electric rocket in orbit hook up and escort the ship to a Moon orbit? Then at the Moon orbit it might either have enough Oxygen to land or receive a fill of more Lunar Oxygen.
Then it would land on the Moon, perhaps the Equator or near so. Ideally it would have left over Methane so that it might ascend again with a load of Lunar LOX, or so the Methane can be donated to surface operations.

(An Argon tank could probably be put into the nose section, I think.)

An alternate and lesser fuel to use can be Carbon Monoxide, but I think the desire would be to use Carbon on the surface of the Moon near the Equator. Apparently, Carbon could also be used in a Neumann Drive, but Argon from Earth may work well. Also, Neumann Drive could run on many types of Lunar substances. Magdrive could run on Aluminum or Iron.

As for robot labor on the Moon, this should be of many sorts, and likely will become low cost, if it can be built at a reasonable price with Lunar and Imported Materials.

Ideally Oxygen could be lifted to Lunar Orbits, to fill Starships on their way to Mars, perhaps.
So, a Starship would leave LEO for the Moon orbits, with just the Oxygen needed for that, and then a safety margin. It would then be refilled at the Moon orbits with the full amount of Oxygen needed.

It is possible that with electric propulsion it would also be possible to move LOX to LEO from the Moon.

Other exports from the Moon could be power to Earth, and maybe data centers on the Moon.

Ending Pending

If we could find an economical way to export Carbon to the Moon, this would help the Hydrocarbon industries.

If for instance Methane could go to a use where the Hydrogen would be stripped off and consumed to generate electricity, and the Carbon be made into spacecraft structure, then that might be a way to do it. Of course I don't know how possible that is. It might also be done for oil, particularly light oil. But it might be possible that Coal mining could provide Carbon for export to the Moon.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-04-24 13:40:04)

Void · 2025-04-24 18:18:53

I feel that the case for Carbon is really shaping up.

I did find that rather than using electrolysis for splitting Methane alone, Pyrolysis would be helpful and could be powered by solar.

Here is one article: https://www.kit.edu/kit/english/pi_2015 … -oxide.php Quote:

Press Release 139/2015
Crack it! Energy from a Fossil Fuel without carbon di-oxide
IASS and KIT develop a technology to produce hydrogen from methane without carbon dioxide emissions

That article is a bit old, but apparently the process has the Carbon byproduct I want.

This query might provide you with more information: "Methane cracking with electrolysis utilizes heat often provided by solar energy or other renewable sources, to break down methane into its constituent elements hydrogen and solid carbon." (Don't include the quote marks).

Result: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Methane+c … 80&pc=DCTS

So, as I see it a natural gas pipeline could provide hydrogen and carbon in a convenient way. The Hydrogen could be burned in a power plant perhaps, maybe a Peaker plant.

The Carbon could be fashioned into objects. I suppose it might be nice if they could be of a size that a railway could handle. So for manufacturing Carbon Starships, I guess it might need to be done on a seashore so that a city could get power, and barges could carry the produced ships. Our eastern and gulf coastal canals might work for that.

I am not a Carbon Doom Goblin. However, if it is possible to meet near net zero, in a manner that is quite beneficial, then I would like that. Making Carbon ships will help with that, and also building power production on the Moon and in Earth/Moon space may make it even Carbon negative.

While the idea of power beaming has been explored, we might also think to make data centers on the Moon. Two problems emerge for that, it may be necessary to import all the chips from Earth, and you need cooling. Cooling is hard in a vacuum, unless you have lots of mass to make heat exchangers with. Then you need a coolant. Oxygen and water are the native options for the Moon but if you are importing Carbon then you can use CO2 or perhaps CO.

As I have said you would have a lot of mass to make heat exchangers with and also you could produce sunshades as well to help keep the radiators cool in the daytime. I would also think you could use heat pumps to make the radiators hotter, and so get better performance out of them.

So, Data Centers on the Moon. Granted there is time latency, but perhaps it would be workable.

I don't want to put endless subtopics in the same post, so I will start another post.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-04-24 18:42:39)

Void · 2025-04-24 18:44:24

A minor notion that has come to me is a magnetic Carbon catcher.

While a ship might bring Methane to the Moon which would have Carbon in it, and the ship would be in large part made of Carbon, it may also be possible to drop Carbon dust at an altitude and have it collected into a crater, before a ship lands.

OK, I think I am allowed to use this as it is an advertisement for a product: https://www.amazon.com/SPACECARE-Magnet … 373&sr=8-5 Image Quote: 71785tLtFCL._AC_SL1500_.jpg

So, an electromagnet(s) in a small crater might make a nice shock absorbing and cooling beard to allow Carbon particles to impact into. By allowing to cool over time and then dropping Carbon, both the cold and the structure disruption may allow the Carbon to not vaporize too much.

Then you might separate the mixture using magnetics later to recover the Carbon and reuse the magnetic materials.

Carbon tolerates heat rather well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon
Quote:

Sublimation point 3915 K (3642 °C, 6588 °F)

So, really something you might retain on impact, especially if the magnetic "Beard" would do shock absorption and also be cold prior to impact. The Moon should be able to produce Iron, Magnetite, and Nickle in fine particles for this purpose. Warning, I think that upon impact the compression of the magnetic field may produce a counter EMF in the electromagnetics, which could be a source of damage???

Anyway if this could be pulled off, the fuel needed to land Carbon on the Moon might be reduced.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-04-24 19:03:37)

Void · 2025-04-24 19:05:26

Preheated Carbon Sponge Hybrid Rocket.

I will expect that someday it will be considered worth it to do something like a Mass Driver on the Moon, or a Rail Gun, etc.

But for now I am trying to work with lower scale methods, that may make sense to be precursor to that.

Even then, perhaps this device might be used inside of an electric launch method.

But a Carbon Sponge???

OK, this is on me. Any query about Carbon Sponge brings up biochar in soil. Not a bad thing but not what I seek.

So, a Carbon sponge impregnated with Lunar metal fuels.

Aluminum and other metals might be featured. The sponge of Carbon it is hoped can hold its posture of stiffness while the metal droplets it holds will have been rendered of the liquid phase. This inside of a solid rocket shell, perhaps tilted towards steel. Preheated, perhaps by magnetic induction and then the device launched by the pushing of LOX into it from an above location of a LOX reservoir.

More properly, then these devices attached to a liquid fueled rocket of some kind that can finish them to a Lunar orbit when they themselves have burned out.

The Steel metal shells then are the cargo/prize in orbit.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-04-24 19:29:48)

Void · 2025-04-24 19:33:23

I found this: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE Quote:

US Strategic Propellant Reserves: How Space Startups Can Benefit
YouTube
Space Startup News
11 views

Of course I agree, but also have large notions involving various uses of Carbon related possibilies.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-04-24 19:37:09)

Void · 2025-04-25 10:53:18

I do think that it is good to look for resources such as water at the Lunar poles, but I have a sense that this has become a sort of obsession that has locked up the total amount of options.

If your spacecraft are like the SLS, then yes, you need that water to go any further into the solar system. And as reality has measured it, even the Artimus program, does not have enough reach on it's own to do it.

I am not particularly an advocate of making SLS obsolete, at least not yet.

I would say though that I am very interested in a parallel path to the Equator of the Moon, using Carbon and other material methods.

For the moment I will set aside the notion of a Carbon Starship to mount on a modified, Superheavy.

Dropping back to mess around with Neutron. If a modified 2nd Stage could be mass produced, and launched to LEO, then an electric rocket method might get them to the Moon, and then having some left-over Oxygen and Methane might allow landings. In this case I am anticipating that the modified 2nd stage would be given landing legs of Carbon, and have three propellant tanks, Oxygen, Methane, and Argon. Boil off is a problem needing solving.

So, a electric rocket device might collect these 2nd stages and perhaps put them into a shaded envelope, to reduce boil off. I would tap into the Argon to move the collection to the Moon.

Then if the 2nd stages had enough propellants left they could seek to land to a Lunar spot on the equator.

So, now you have some mostly Carbon shells on the Moon.

The Development of an engine that burns Carbon Monoxide could be helpful.

So, then in addition to that I suggest an attempt at a Carbon Sponge Hybrid Rocket.

The Carbon Sponge would be having metal beads in its structure.

Presuming Steel shells for the rockets, then filling it with this sponge. If the metal beads inside may be of combustible metals, then the entire fuel part of the rocket could be put into an oven. You could only heat the Steel so hot or it would melt.

Melting point of Steel: https://www.theworldmaterial.com/meltin … emperature. Quote:

1300-1540°C (2370-2800°F)
The melting point of steel is 1300-1540°C (2370-2800°F), depending primarily on the chemical composition of the steel, which can affect the strength of the bonds between atoms. The stronger the bond strength between atoms, the higher the melting temperature.

A Carbon Sponge inside of these shells would not likely melt but could sublimate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon
Quote:

Sublimation point 3915 K (3642 °C, 6588 °F)

So, the Carbon could be hotter than the Steel as long as the Steel remained solid. That would require an internal heating method, and good timing to not melt your Steel Shells.

If you put metal beads inside of the Carbon Sponge, such as Aluminum, then there are temperature concerns for that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium Quote:

Phase at STP solid
Melting point 933.47 K (660.32 °C, 1220.58 °F)
Boiling point 2743[4] K (2470 °C, 4478 °F)

So, we might want to melt the Aluminum Beads but not boil them, prior to launch.

So, also, we don't want the fluid Aluminum to dribble out of the rocket engine, we hope that the hot Carbon Sponge can hold these little droplets by physical effects.

So, then, I suggest a LOX tank added for launch and then you need a turbine that would burn a little CO fuel, and the inject an Oxidized flow into the Hot Rocket shell.

These devices being on top of the Hot Rocket Shell, could also facilitate steering with side thrusters, and at some point a thruster that can finish the orbit to circular, after the solid rocket motor has been used up.

Then what you had in orbit of the Moon, would be metal or silica remnants, I expect. Possibly some extra LOX.

The solids perhaps could be used as propellant in a Neumann Drive or Magdrive, or to build things in orbit. The LOX of course could have value as well for various options.

I went through this exercise to see how close to practical we might get with a modified Neutron Technology.
It seems to me that it might be possible to do something of value.

This gives some perception so that if we ever did try this, perhaps on a Starship scale we would better know what might be possible and useful and how a larger system should be constructed.

I have suggested a Carbon Sponge with Aluminum Beads in it. Perhaps we could be able to substitute Silicon for Carbon. Silicon is native to the Moon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon
Quote:

Melting point 1687 K (1414 °C, 2577 °F)
Boiling point 3538 K (3265 °C, 5909 °F)

Maybe it would work. But we still would likely want the Carbon Monoxide and LOX turbopump to supply Oxidizer.

I am not sure I would want an alloy of Aluminum and Silicon, but rather a Silicon "Sponge" with Aluminum beads in it.

But the Alloy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium … con_alloys

A Silicon Sponge could be considered a fuel, especially if preheated. But I am hoping the melted Aluminum beads inside of the sponge will also be a better fuel.

So, then using Silicon as Sponge, then it may not be necessary to have too much Carbon for the Carbon Monoxide for the Turbopump. But you would need some, and the ships sent could provide it.

The Carbon could be used to reduce regolith and so to make regolith materials into fuels as well. Silicon and Aluminum, also a Steel Shell. Actually I feel aware that more than that is needed to refine Aluminum and Silicon.

But anyway, maybe the contents of this post could suggest a direction to take for launching from the Moon, mostly using Lunar materials made into resources.

Ending Pending

These "Rockets" would not only fly on chemical energy stored, but also to some extent on thermal energy stored, similar to a steam rocket.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-04-25 11:46:53)

Void · 2025-04-25 12:03:49

OK, the previous post suggests a method to support operations on the Moon with Carbon from Earth, and a method perhaps to extract mass from the Moon to orbit for useful purposes.

But I am wondering about data centers on the Moon. Probably solar energy runs them.

Well, here is an alternative. Perhaps data centers in orbit of the Moon, where the chips come from Earth but the supporting mass may come from the Moon. Radiation is a concern for that. Perhaps on the surface of the Moon after all under significant shielding.

I have seen evidence that NASA has had a look radiator technology for the Moon.

https://engineering.tamu.edu/news/2024/ … re%20range. Quote:

Hot or Cold: Adapting to Lunar Extremes
Dr. Darren Hartl has partnered with NASA to design an adaptable radiator that combats the moon’s extreme temperatures as lunar exploration continues.
March 28, 2024 By Alyssa Schaechinger

I would certainly look at the work of NASA on radiators on the Moon.

Chips are becoming more and more dense for computations vs. mass. So, maybe the cost to ship them to the Moon would not be that prohibitive. But you would need to be able to leverage moon raw materials to give support for the data centers that may be desired.

Again, the purpose of this would be to get a useful product from the Moon, using Moon energy, and matter.

A computational result transmitted from the Moon to Earth would be the product. And of course, data would transfer from the Earth to the Moon.

This avoids using power supplied on Earth for data centers. (I have nothing against that).

But the Moon would have an exportable product, which could help to support movement of goods and services between Earth<>Moon, using propulsive technologies.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-04-25 12:14:22)

Void · 2025-04-25 12:31:34

So, it turns out that Carbon can be used in the production of reduced Silicon: https://www.popsci.com/diy/article/2005 … icon-sand/ That and a heat source.
Quote:

Industrially, silica is converted to pure silicon by heating it with coke (the form of coal, not the drink) in a furnace. But there’s an even easier, if less cost-effective, method that I learned from Jason Stainer, a science teacher in England. All you have to do is heat a mixture of common silica sand and magnesium powder in a test tube. The magnesium steals the oxygen atoms from the silica, leaving elemental silicon.
No reaction is perfect, and in this case you’re left with a mixture of magnesium, magnesium oxide, magnesium silicide and silicon in the bottom of the test tube. Fortunately, the best way to purify it is also the most entertaining. I told my 8-year-old Harry Potter fan that I had prepared a fire potion.

So, Carbon with heat can win Oxygens heart away from Silicon. This also produces CO2, which can then be split into Carbon and Oxygen. Might not be a bad way to get Oxygen.

OK, so plants work with Carbon but not so much Silicon, so that is why we may have Coal, but not pure Silicon as fuel.

So, I think that a Silicon Sponge/Foam, with Aluminum powder/beads in it might make a fairly good fuel for a solid rocket, especially if it is preheated. to say 800 degrees C??? If the casing for the hybrid rocket fuel section is to be heated, a danger with too much heat is that the Steel Shell will lose strength.

I am not an expert about that.

It seems that Steel and Silicon are somewhat close as to the melting point, I think.

If you had a way to heat the structure from the inside out, then you might get the Silicon sponge to a higher temperature, while not compromising the Steel Shell's strength.

But melted Aluminum particles should be possible inside of the sponge.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-04-25 12:43:14)

Void · 2025-04-25 20:08:24

With the various notions added to this topic, now I would like to drift back towards the topic title.

I believe that SpaceX will eventually be successful with a Stainless-Steel Starship, including propellant tankers, and that may support a whole host of other things, both from SpaceX and other vendors.

As for SLS, eventually it will retire. Apollo did, the Space Shuttle did.

Dr. Zubrin and others have expressed opinion that Starboat would be good for Mars and for the Moon. But SpaceX does not want to divert from what is on it's plate now, and I do not blame them for that.

But at least for the Moon, could we put together a reasonable substitute for Starboat, using "Leftovers".

Possible Leftovers:
-Orion Capsule.
-Dragon Capsule
-Falcon 9 2nd stage
-Neutron 2nd stage
-2nd Stage of Terran-R

Also, I might add 2nd stage of NOVA from Stoke Space.

Various engines, many Methane fuel, One RP-1, One Hydrogen.

Some of the above are abandoned to burn in the atmosphere, after one use. However, if Starship(s) do emerge, it may be possible to bring propellants that can efficiently be used in electric rockets could perhaps collect these to a construction point in an orbit, being somewhat efficient. There, perhaps some reuses for the Moon may make sense, possibly collecting them into assemblies.

Many of these could be brought to orbit as fresh items using Starship as an alternative.

I would think to resort to this as it may be a way to go smaller scale for the Moon, while not having to totally develop new hardware.

I would wonder if one of the Capsules could actually be hosted on a collection of 2nd stages, that would be able to actually land on the Moon and then ascend back to orbit. Something like that could perhaps be serviced in Lunar Orbits, from an orbital Starship.

Also, if robots are to be the main force of labor, then such machines may be able to land them on the Moon in special places as well.

I don't think it will be desired to create a large population of people on the Moon.

I do not think that Mars should wait too much for the Moon to develop, but if the Moon does develop then it may become useful to future Mars effort.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-04-25 20:28:15)

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