New Mars Forums

So, at the core of this would be "Inflated, Frozen, Mud-Balloons".

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Probably the walls of the arch need to be much thicker than what I show here.

The Mud would be composed of dirt, water ice, and fibers.  The fibers could be organic grown, or mineral wool, or plastic fibers of manufacture.

Regolith might be about 3.0 specific gravity, I think.

On Mars, about 100 feet of water can give a pressurization of about 1000 millibars.  I believe that that is about 30 meters.

Ice is less dense so perhaps you need about 110 feet of ice to pressurize to 1000 millibars.

But dirty ice, will weigh more, depending on content.  I intend to have a dominantly find regolith mix, with the minimum of ice to bind it together.

I will intend to include some fiber in the frozen mud mix.

I will go with the 3.0 number, so about 33 feet of mud will give 1000 millibars of pressure, if that were so.

There are certain pressure minimums.

Less than 100 millibars might be suitable to some non-vascular life such as Algae perhaps.

100 millibars is perhaps close to the tolerance for most vascular crops.  It is not enough to sustain human life though.

250 millibars of Oxygen is probably about the minimum for human life to be sustained.

333 millibars of Oxygen may be more suitable for human life.

I think a mix of O2/N2 at 500 millibars or more would be better for human life.

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So, 16.5 feet for 500 millibars.

11 feet for 333 millibars.

8.25 feet for 250 millibars.

I would propose this sort of construction primarily to support agriculture, and to give extra space for human do things like walk around and run around.

The three sorts of agriculture I am aware of at this time are:
-Photosynthesis, natural light.
-Photosynthesis, artificial light. (LED's, Fiber Optics).
-Chemosynthesis.

The use of O2 and Acetate is the process of decay product simulation, supporting life.
Using an electrolyze process, O2 and Acetate are produced from CO2 and water.

These simulated decay world products apparently will support Yeast, Algae, and Mushroom life rather well, and vascular plants less well.

My hope is that by adding 1%, 5%, 10% lighting the vascular plants will do well.  Artificial lighting is more expensive than natural light, but on Mars we cannot have natural light as you have to at least have a greenhouse glass.

O2/Acetate is less expensive than natural photosynthesis.

So, the balance of O2/Acetate dominant with a small amount of artificial light may be of an acceptable cost.  Keep in mind that it is possible that fiber optics might work.

Ideally then you could grow crops which may provide not only foods but useful fibers.

Now, if someone wants to make glass domes, that is fine.  But I am looking to provide bulk agriculture at a reasonable cost.

The mud domes will be filled with air, to help avoid collapse. 

The domes may have a protective vapor barrier over them and may be shaded by solar panels as well.

The domes may have a poly type film inside of them to help hold air pressure and to help avoid freeze drying.

The domes may have additional supports if they can be afforded, made of stones, Plastics, and metals.  Perhaps domes inhabited by humans may have this expense.

The domes will have a plastic dome inside of them that allows heat pumps to move heat away from the mud domes into a more interior space under such a plastic dome.

The domes may have water/ice pools inside or might have soils.  Maybe soils to grow mushrooms, or soils to grow vascular plant crops.

I think it should be noted that Mars probably has lots of building materials for frozen mud domes.

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Frozen Mud Domes, do not prevent the creation of tunnels and vaults in the solid rock below: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 19#p233319

This would be an extra safety feature.

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(th) Made a request.  I tried to comply.  Since I am confused as to what was desired, I will put the existing work to satisfy his original request here.  https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 66#p235966

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Rather than to put a convex dome into a crater, I prefer on the macro Scale to visualize the greater structure as concave to the sky.

I wish also to include this sort of thing on a smaller scale: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7514

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And from the just prior post this:

My objective is to produce large amounts of structure using relatively low-grade materials to convert into resources.

But high-grade materials will also be used where it has merit.

It is late.

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A "Fourth" Shale Revolution: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE
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Key word is "Proppant".

There is some notion I encountered on line that suggested that "Breakeven" price could be $45.00/Barrel.  (Probably best case I think).

So, adding capacity each year.

So, I am also a fan of RethinkX which is about an electric economy more based on wind and solar.

And we apparently are going to have data base demand to satisfy.  Even expanding into space.  So, the energy sector is going to stay big, it looks like.

As I recall when I first encountered his materials, Peter Zeihan did not think that we would be able to do the "Electric Economy" for lack of materials.  Things seem to have improved now.  Aluminum and Sodium Batteries for instance.

The need for global commerce to obtain materials and the possession of a major market plus the avoidance of hookers seems to me now to be the most important aspects of the present situation.

The grooming of money so that "Good" money can be more dominant than "Bad" money.  The avoidance of the emergence of "Mischief" money.

I give high marks to this administration and terrible marks to the previous administration.

"Mischief" money is typically money that is obtained without virtuous behaviors, and which is then applied by people of poor character to warp healthy societies.

Two significant camps for this are Old World Oil Money, and Money from Harmful Drugs.  These are prominent at this time.

It has occurred to me that it is not only the drugs that have a harmful effect, but the conduction of money to the wicked that matter.  Americans ar partially guilty for consuming and so then buying those drugs, but it is those who obtain money while not doing a good service, who entirely carry the blame for how evil money is spent.

Many would be eager to say that Americans are responsible for the drug trade for being the consumers of it.  But during the Opium wars will you also say that it was the Chinese who were similarly responsible?  Does that excuse the entities that support the illegal drug industry?

Oil and natural gas, also have cases of "Mischief" money.  The better the USA satisfies it's own market the less of that there will be around the world.

Money easily obtained in some "OPEC" countries can often become "Mischief" money if the Verbal and Violent are allowed access to it.

So, to make a better world, the less "Mischief" money the better. 

Globalization encourages "Mischief" money, and funnels it into the hands of those who only do evil deeds with their words, minds, and hands.

So, in the case of "Mischief" money LESS IS MORE!

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I suppose I may be annoying you Calliban, but if you could design a dome shaped frame that is reusable, then a mix of fine ice particles and Mars soil could be piled on it.  And a organic fiber such as from a plant or Mycelium from mushrooms, might be added.  A microwave warming process used with a method to tamp the melting mixture would allow a freeze dome.

When completed, shading might be added to the outside using solar panels as an option.

You could then remove the original frame for reuse.

Then you might put a poly film dome inside of that dome.

Then inside of that dome you might put habit or farm methods, such as ponds for Algae, or a Mushroom farm, or even farming with vascular plants.

With an electric power source you might maintain proper temperatures using heat pump technology.

https://modernfarmer.com/2022/07/artifi … synthesis/
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Electricity from nuclear reactors also very welcome.

Maybe this could be tried in the Arctic, Antarctic, and Alpine areas on Earth.

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Isaac Arthur has another video to give: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAzvCn4fch4
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I think the materials is rather good.

I would say at this time we will want to get hints at Moon biology at this point if we are going to have a permanent or temporary base on the Moon.  Human health data in 1/6 g would be the most valuable, but you could leave robots to nurture Earth organisms in 1/6th g for longer term data.

It could be that 1/6th g with space medicine is enough to prolong human health to years in orbit.  If so then it might not be necessary to make synthetic gravity at a full 1 g.

The great hope is that the Moon after all has vast amounts of water ice and maybe even some Carbon compounds in the poles.
https://interestingengineering.com/scie … water-moon
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I see a more recent article in post #254 is now "Not Available".

Is it a new secret or a withdrawn claim?

Here is the title of that "Not Available" article:

Here is my quote from that post:

Here is an article from 2024 which is available: https://mashable.com/article/nasa-moon- … -discovery
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Anyway the upgraded assessments are why I have changed my mind about "Squandering" the water on the Moon to make rocket propellants.

Reality about the matter needs further discovery.

Back to Isaac Arthurs video.  The hope would be to use Lunar resources to eventually expand to Deimos/Phobos/Mars.

Something that needs to be said: "Pioneer cultures and Slaver cultures will handle information differently from each other.

A Pioneer culture, such as historically the USA has been, will welcome discovery of the ability for humans to expand into space.  A Slaver culture is likely to try to hide such information as they are parasitic on peoples of Hand and Eye abilities.  A Slaver culture, can use Hands and Eyes to do brutal things to those they wish to enslave, but primarily their power exists in telling lies about reality, to create capture methods so that they can extract wealth from their captives.

So, probably our reality will contain some amount of lies from the children of the Father of Lies.  It at least helps for the people of a Pioneer culture to realize this.
"

So, either Deimos and Phobos will have water ice and maybe Carbon or not.  We are being given conflicting information.

But beyond this we think from information that 40% of the asteroids at about 2.1 AU are Carbonaceous in nature.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Elon Musk is reported to have commented on Von Neumann Machines and Optimus robot recently: https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2025/11/o … probe.html
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So, imagine a future where the ratio of humans to robots in the near asteroid belt is 1 human to 10,000 or more robots.  The production of materials useful to that locality and to our Moon seem probable.

Where we measure everything as to be fostered from Earth resources now, with robots, we can gain materials in space and use solar energy to bring things to our Moon.  It only requires the manipulation of objects by robots primarily, and the means of transport.

For delivery of hard objects, it may be that the method of the post #255 of hard landing may be sufficient.  Another method would be to hover a tanker ship over a cold shadowed crater and discharge it's burned propellants to condense as ices on the Lunar surfaces.  Of course you could do a soft landing as well for a higher price.

Categories of materials of low value, may be Iron and Oxygen.  Higher value materials are Nitrogen, Carbon, Hydrogen, and perhaps refined Aluminum.

So, for propellants we might prefer Iron and Oxygen as those can relatively easily be extracted from the Moon.

An Ion Electric drive such as Magdrive or Neumann Drive might be suitable for Iron.  For Oxygen expelling Oxygen ice from a Mass Driver might work.  Or perhaps an Oxygen "Wetted" Capacitive Ceramic engine with Laser pulses might do.  That is if you could make a film of Oxygen cling to a Ceramic and then hit that film with a laser pulse to boil it off of the Ceramic surface.  IF the wavelength is tuned correctly then it may be reactive to the Oxygen and hopefully less so of the Ceramic surface.

If in transit, your cargo was largely water ice, Carbon, and Nitrogen, then you might split the water, using the Oxygen as propellant, and then bond the Hydrogen to either the Carbon or Nitrogen to produce Hydrocarbons or Ammonia.

Then once reaching Lunar Orbit perhaps the Plastics, Tar, or lighter Hydrocarbons and Ammonia, could be distributed as a delivered product and be used in CIS Lunar Space or the surface of the Moon.

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In relation to the previous post: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WeNfzqz24U
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It would be good if we could grow vegetable substitutes on Trees as wall: https://farmfoodfamily.com/vegetables-t … -on-trees/

So, rather than plowing land, perhaps some of these would be substitutes, if you have robots that can reach high into trees and pick the "Vegetables".

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I like your evaluation Dr Johnson.

I think that Starships that land and stay on the Moon may have value, and those the loiter in orbit of the Moon may have value.

If it is true that the Moon has lots of water from ancient volcanism, then if Starship stopped off in orbit of the Moon and Carbon might be supplied by some efficient freighter, then a Hydro-Lox, Moon vehicle could act as a tanker to bring water to Lunar Orbit, where a space station might generate propellants for the Starship.

The Starship could bring freight to Lunar orbit and get refilled to either return to Earth, or go to another destination.

The Tanker could bring water up and freight down.

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I have decided to invite myself sideways into a conversation about bricks and domes on Mars.

I think that a first consideration is site selection.  A primary "Want" as vast amounts of water.  So, that probably will be a giant ice slab.

So, in order to have a decent foundation for a brick dome, you are going to need to dig a hole in the ice to get to the relatively solid regolith below the ice.

With an abundance of ice available, my suggestion is to go ahead and make your dome of brick or other available materials and then cover it over with a mix of ice and regolith.

This is an interesting brick resource, but you would need to get lime and ash: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjdfFgGbsvc

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So, of course what I am suggesting is a cold dome.  A shell of brick or other useful materials and then to add a soil icecrete layer on top of that.  I would hope to incorporate water ice, soil, and plant fiber.

NASA has already studied "Ice Houses" on Mars, so, I am not that stupid on this.

https://www.spacexarch.com/mars-ice-house/
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I am not trying to make a transparent structure though, so I have stronger hopes of success.

So, perhaps what you might do after you have created your thin dome would be to sprinkle created particles of soil and ice mix onto the dome and to lay "Straw" mats down intermittently over layers of that.  Perhaps some ash would help, burnt straw?

Perhaps some sort of microwave process to melt it deeper down while compressing it with some sort of a plate like ram.

My guess is that this could be an excellent radiation shelter and could hold air pressure.

The dome will be cold inside, but could you make "Grass-Huts" inside of it?

Perhaps Adobe brick walls and a "Grass" roof.

https://depositphotos.com/photo/a-grass … 48046.html
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You would have to be able to grow some sort of vascular land plant, "Grass", and make artificial "Sticks" using those plants and some sort of glue.

So, I am hoping for some sort of plant that can provide fibers that might be grown using Acetate and Oxygen.  We don't know if that is going to work out yet or not.  We can hope for it.

The form of the "Dome" could be circular or Quonset, I feel.

While it would be nice to have various other "Modern" materials, for Mars, it would also be nice to have many bulk material options.

As far as heating the "Grass Huts", I think a limited amount of heating could be absorbed by the dome and the dome floor without sublimating the ice from the dome, particularly if a vapor barrier is placed over it. 

But it might be a good idea to heat your huts using a heat pump to pull heat out of the air in the dome.

So, the dome might be cold like a windless winter day, but the insides of the grass huts could be very comfy.

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This is my sort of thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfH1JIO-qjM
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Salt is a problem of course.

I recall that a drop of water that enters the Great Basin could fall as rain and snow 7 times before leaving the Great Basin.

Here is some sort of a notions:

I will believe this when they prove it.
https://soldesal.energy/

Water Sponge: https://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topst … cz#image=7

Salt/Brine can be toxic.  But if you handle it correctly you might generate electricity using salt gradients while distributing the salt to levels not toxic.

Easy to say, not so easy to do.

I would say that if you many salt lakes, you then partially cover them with floating platforms with solar panels.  Or even solar thermal electric.

So, going through all the work of watering Nevada, why not discourage the evaporation from the lakes/seas.

Perhaps 95% of the lake surfaces would be made cactus like, to inhibit evaporation.  The shorelines could then be left open, and perhaps some channels for boats.  Maybe 5% of the lake surface?

In realty, if you can limit evaporation to 4 inches a year, the lakes might be self-filling from natural rain.

If you made Boring Tunnels up to the mountain passes of California, you could run steam up them, and then condense the water and then let it run down the interior surface of the mountains.

An advanced society might pull this off some day.

I have suggested underground tunnels with sea water in them.  The salt from the Great Basin might be distributed into them for a time.

Rainfall in Nevada: https://www.currentresults.com/Weather/ … tation.php

By the way if you put 95% cover above the reservoirs of the Colorado River, then I feel that good things can be done with the water conserved.

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FYI, the Salton Sea has exited many times naturally when the Colorado River changed channels.

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I would like to expand on the idea a bit more.

I am going to speculate that Algae, Fungi, Yeast, and even vascular plants accept Acetate as "Food" as Acetate or other "Food" chemicals have been available due to the decay of organic matter in water and wet soils.

I have hopes that this factor is more important in deep water than it is on land.  Deep water struggles for sunlight, but land has relatively abundant sunlight.  So, I am hoping that large type Algae may be able to use chemicals like Acetate better than land Vascular plants can.
But at this point I have no proofs of this.

https://www.usgs.gov/publications/stabl … ecies-deep
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This may be supportive however Quote;

So, it might be hoped to grow some seawater "Vegetables", in Boring Company Loops.  There are not very many fresh water macro-algae that I am aware of, so I am supposing salt water.

We know now that there are microbores that "Eat" chemicals out of the air like Methane, Hydrogen, CO, and CO2, so it should not be to much of a surprise if organisms in the ocean may consume chemicals from the water such as Acetate and the above-mentioned chemicals.

Here is an interesting resource: https://www.masterclass.com/articles/wh … le-seaweed
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So, if Boring Tunnel Loops were filled with salt water and were as watertight as cactus, then I speculate that sea water Algae farming could be carried out.  Some fresh water should be incorporated, This might be far better water management than dry land irrigation as the water should be rather persistent if the structure is made properly.

If you read prior posts, you may understand the other useful features that Sea Water Cistern/Heat Sink Canals might provide.

Of course, yes, fish farming could be done as well.

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I am encouraged in the thinking of this topic the last few posts, as it occurred to me that a "Loop", made by the Boring Company could be considered a Cistern that is also a Heat Sink.

I feel it may work well with Superpower as per RethinkX
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92_SzHGUjJI
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What this could mean is that any desert could have such Cisterns/Heat Sinks below it's surface, and they could also perform other functions.

While even low rainfalls and even extracting water from the air could fill these Cistern/Heat Sinks, you could take water from the Salton Sea, with it's salt, and add some flash flood runoff water and get to a saltiness of the oceans of Earth, compatible with fish.  Over time this could remove the salts from the Salton Sea.

The majority of the Great Basin could have these Seawater-Cistern/Heat Sinks in the flat areas.  Solar panels and heat can make electrolyzes practical.

You could dump heat into the Cistern from Data Centers.  Then you could condense water from the air inside the cistern, by using a heat pump to disperse heat during the desert nights.  Then the water might be recycled back into the cistern if it is grey water or wash water.

Obviously if you are going to grow fish, then you need to avoid toxicity.  The minimum humane thing to do though, is to provide just a little lighting inside these.

I think that the Cisterns could support the growth of Algae using Oxygen and chemical fuels, such as Acetate.

You could also perhaps draw heat from the heat sink, to provide industrial heat, using a heat pump.  I believe that 180>200>250 degrees C are or may become available using heat pumps.

This could be done on the Great Plains as well, so as silly as it sounds, it might be possible to have an interconnected underground canal system that performs these other functions as well.

Yes, it will be expensive to create, but it will also be quite useful.

Yes, it would be wonderful if we did not eat animals, but endless fish are pulled out of the oceans for people to eat.  If you get rid of that then we can think of abandoning fish farming.

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In further support of the previous post I have this:

But I have something else about the Boring Company that interests me now.

According to information from the previous post, we might expect tunnels to become cheaper build than Highways.

So, if you can extract sufficient value from a tunnel then you can justify building it.

So, I feel that we could make underground canal systems that would also serve as farms and also as a "Heat Bank".

Now it might sound funny but if you make a tunnel loop in the rock and fill it halfway with water, you have a heat sink.  You also could grow things in it using Oxygen and feed, such as Acetate.

Datacenters could dump heat into it year around.  In some places the stored heat would be valuable, so you might build buildings above ground over the Canal-Tunnel.

Is it more stupid to consider Voyager Type Canoes in such a tunnel system than to consider a railroad system?

So, now I meddle with Canada, as it is parts of it are similar to places where I live or have lived.

They would likely be customers for heat in the winter.

Such an underground canal system could have mostly robotic boat lifts to compensate for changing elevations.

A project that would be interesting would be to link the James Bay to Lake Superior.

Another project might link Lake Superior to the Mississippi.

Yes these things would be expensive to build, but the Yealy payoff could extend far into the future.

For the Moment, we are glued to the Continental climate, so that if you are to cool data centers, then you have to suffer through the summers which can be warm to hot.

But if you have a system of underground Canal-Tunnels, then you can store cold from the winter by heating buildings, and yet add heat year around from data centers.

Many glaciated places in the north hold lakes that could be linked into a transportation system using such Canal-Tunnels.

And a form of aquiculture could go on in the tunnels, in places that do not support agriculture.

I think this could be done largely without damaging the environments of rivers and lakes.

You could conceivably link the large, dammed lakes in the Dakotas with the Mississippi River.

The water within would be very seldom changed out, but would be used over and over again, so you would not so much be drawing on surface water reserves after you filled the Canals in the Tunnels.

I have considered something similar to this for Mars, of course.

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