The Moon

Void · 2025-10-18 11:31:47

FYI, I have done two posts before this one, today, on this topic.

The 70's and 80's had a notion of extracting things from the Moon to build things in orbit.

But now it seems obvious that it will be rather easy to provide power to locations on the Moon, 24/7,

So, for I have avoided mass driver notions and their like and also tethers to snatch things to orbit. I do not oppose those, but think they are beyond my abilities to be expert in. I will welcome them if they can be done. It seems though that some chemical launch methods may be practical, or that asteroid materials can be brought in to make power plants to send power to the Moon, at least to start.

One thing I am interested in is if Neumann Drive or Magdrive could be a matter projector from the Moon? Could you vacuum weld projected matter to an orbiting target?

At I am somewhat lacking as much knowledge about MagDrive as for Neumann Drive. It turns out now that Magdrive apparently can use most metals for propellants. I do not know if it can use Silicon. But I believe that Neumann Drive can use Silicon and Aluminum which will each be important for solar power plants in orbit.

https://neumannspace.com/
Here is included a list of propellants for electric ion drives: https://neumannspace.com/metal-propellants/

I think if a substance is electrically conductive it can be used as a propellant. Most elements apparently have that capability.

Consider a magnetic Beard in a orbital cup: https://fineartamerica.com/featured/2-i … brary.html

https://www.istockphoto.com/photo/group … -299911407
Image Quote:

Point the beard down towards the Moon.

Here is my attempt:

Iron can be magnetized to provide the magnetic filings "Beard". But Hot Iron will not be magnetic until cooled down.
Aluminum can have some inductive reactance.
Silicon might be catchable.

My hope would be that suborbital particles projected from the surface of the Moon would intercept the beard and be entrained into it and even vacuum welt to the magnetic particles. I am hoping to accumulate and not to disintegrate the Beard cup.

The cup may be orbiting at a rather low altitude. Some method to propel the Beard-Cup is needed, perhaps Neumann Drive or Magdrive.

Perhaps it could be pushed with an electron beam from the surface of the Moon.

Thinking bigger you might eventually even build an orbiting ring around the Moon or a planet like Mercury, but that is even more of a fantasy.

I suppose rotavators might also be a more sensible plan for the Moon.

But the point is if you could get massive amounts of Mass into orbit you could build orbital power supplies for the Moon, to serve many purposes on the Moon such as the support of data centers.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-18 12:06:49)

Void · 2025-10-21 19:18:21

Some won't like this video as there is some amount of propaganda gloating for China and a bit of put-down for the USA. But even so, the information is important.

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=VRDGAR Quote:

China Discovers a Staggering 270 Billion Tons of Liquid Water Hidden on the Moon!
YouTube
Tech Teller
17 views

I don't see the USA as earning that much put down, but it does explain why NASA has begun harassing SpaceX. They must be getting pressure from powerful politicians.

I was around when the space program was stifled. I know the mentality of the people who stifled it.

Unfortunately, the character of the USA is good much of the time, but sometimes it eats its own children rather than to promote them to greatness.

China and others are not without their own problems/faults. But they are entitled to be pleased that they disserve recognition for this.

As for the US and other countries like it, we are in our European parts, a combination of remnants of Hunter Gathers, Farmers, and the Steppe peoples. I consider that they each bring gifts and also problems.

The Steppe peoples somewhat may be more mobile and having the technology of that.

The Farmers though produce a problem which is the excessive building of Hierarchy built too much on verbal skills. If the Hierarchy can cause the skilled in violence to obey it, then the masses can be enslaved. A threat to this power pyramid is technology. Apollo produced to many technologically skilled people with them accumulating power. Of course, the priesthood of the farmer inheritance resented that and wanted to convert it to things they could command and extract power and wealth from. So, the kill Apollo and promote the military.

Don't get me wrong, I am still here and I do not speak Russian or Chinese. I am not dead (Yet). Unfortunately, in dealing with the Farmers as in dealing with the other two heritages, you have to take some bad with the good. And it is hard to tell from time to time which is which.

But Apollo sampled materials near the equator, I believe, and the Farmers wanted to emphasize that the Moon was a very dead and useless world. They come in various flavors.
-Want the money for violence/security.
-Want to keep the human race on the Earth so we will be here when the rapture comes.
-Are atheists anti-humanist scientists who value their ivory towers among the anointed. Want grant money. Do not think that common people should be allowed to breed, perhaps.
-Jealous.

Even if water was found they would be happy to say that the samples were contaminated being brought to Earth. They would be happy with a dead dry Moon.

Then they could say they were aiming at Mars, but never really mount a serious effort, just keep resetting the game, churning the money.

Again, although all of that frustrates me, I do have it rather good relative to average people on the planet, (Except for that bitter feeling of having my time wasted).

Still here we are and we have to work with what we have.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-21 19:38:15)

Void · 2025-11-05 12:02:45

I think that CO2 heat pumps on the Moon may be very important for Data Centers on the Moon.

https://www.youtube.com/@Anthrofuturism claims that heat engines on the Moon are not that good compared to solar panels.

But if you could get solar power and use CO2 heat pumps to make radiators hot, you might produce desired cold for Data Centers.

while solar power might be gotten on the Moon, it is also possible to have power plants in orbits that beam power down to the Moon. This it seems can be beamed as lasers that point to a tuned solar panel that is not too bad for energy transfer.

But the Moon may provide both energies to run data centers and also to produce cooling by use of heat pumps to rev up the radiators to radiate heat off of the heat exchanger structures.

I think that using heat pumps and sunshades cooling will be available for the purpopse.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-11-05 12:08:54)

Void · 2025-11-22 09:53:53

Well, this is huge!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA1QFaJ9 Quote:

NASA Study Finds Water On Moon—Billions Of Tons Signal ‘Game-Changer For Colonization’
Story by Ally Webb • 4d •
4 min read

If there is water ice in such quantities, then I am hopeful for CO2 deposits as well.

I am afraid that this tilts primary purpose to the Moon for a while.

Sorry? Not at all. It is seeming to be a wonderful gift.

It seems that the North pole has twice as much water ice as the south pole does, which contradicts prior thinking.

Farms on the Moon! Resources for missions to Mars!

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-11-22 09:57:35)

Void · 2025-12-02 09:01:28

I have run across an idea for orbital recycling that is specific to the Moon and for me at least, something new. It is a form of hard crash delivery of scrap to the Moon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdYoVM_y6Bs
Quote:

Orbit Recycling: 500 Dangerous Derelicts → 1,000 Tonnes of Free Lunar Aluminium in 10 Years
Space Startup News

This brings up some interesting ideas. What about the ISS? Could it be pushed to a higher orbit and then later, when Starship is developed better could the ISS be crashed into a Moon crater? Yes, there will be international issues, but salvage might be international in character.

That is a lot of processed material, and I don't think it necessarily makes sense to push it into the atmosphere.

A query says 420 to 450 tons.

Of course, until a Starship was ready you would have to keep it from breaking apart in a higher orbit.

Other space junk concepts like Neumann Drive and Magdrive might work in conjunction with this concept.

This opens some other options as well. They mention sending Falcon 9 upper stages. I would wonder if they could refill those with Starship in LEO, and send them on their own, perhaps with a cargo of copper?

I would also venture that it might make sense to lift Falcon 9 2nd Stages to LEO using Starship. Refuel them at a special station and send them to the Moon. The materials of them are valuable. They might deliver something to the Moon orbit prior to crashing?

Perhaps the 2nd Stage could be upsized to fit into a Starship Payload bay?

Yes, Merlin Engines, with a different fuel, but one that may not boil of as much. Imagine sending super sized Falcon 9 2nd stages to Moon orbits, using Neumann Drive or Magdrive. Refilling them in Lunar Orbit and using them as landers. Maybe hard landers with stuff like Copper.

But perhaps SpaceX could make a Aluminum 3rd stage for the Starship system that might use old raptor engines.

Copper is a material hard to get on the Moon. And they have explained the value of Aluminum.

The future competitor Neutron upper stage could be a similar story.

So, I have previously suggested that Starship could do the Expendable/Not-Really option where an "Expendable", Starship could be made into space station materials or propellants for Neumann Drive or Magdrive.

This might go beyond that. However Starship is largely Stainless Steel with some copper. Not as valuable perhaps as Aluminum on the Moon.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-12-02 09:39:16)

Void · 2025-12-04 09:35:01

Isaac Arthur has another video to give: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAzvCn4fch4
Quote:

Developing a Cis-Lunar Economy
Isaac Arthu

I think the materials is rather good.

I would say at this time we will want to get hints at Moon biology at this point if we are going to have a permanent or temporary base on the Moon. Human health data in 1/6 g would be the most valuable, but you could leave robots to nurture Earth organisms in 1/6th g for longer term data.

It could be that 1/6th g with space medicine is enough to prolong human health to years in orbit. If so then it might not be necessary to make synthetic gravity at a full 1 g.

The great hope is that the Moon after all has vast amounts of water ice and maybe even some Carbon compounds in the poles.
https://interestingengineering.com/scie … water-moon
Quote:

Ancient volcanoes may be the source of water found on the moon
If we dig deep enough we may found the water produced by the volcanic eruptions.
By
Loukia Papadopoulos
Science
May 29, 2022 10:10 AM EST

I see a more recent article in post #254 is now "Not Available".

Is it a new secret or a withdrawn claim?

Here is the title of that "Not Available" article:

NASA Study Finds Water On Moon—Billions Of Tons Signal ‘Game-Changer For Colonization’
Story by Ally Webb • 4d •
4 min read

Here is my quote from that post:

If there is water ice in such quantities, then I am hopeful for CO2 deposits as well.
I am afraid that this tilts primary purpose to the Moon for a while.

Well the deeper buried water may or may ot exist.

Sorry? Not at all. It is seeming to be a wonderful gift.
It seems that the North pole has twice as much water ice as the south pole does, which contradicts prior thinking.
Farms on the Moon! Resources for missions to Mars!

Here is an article from 2024 which is available: https://mashable.com/article/nasa-moon- … -discovery
Quote:

NASA just found unexpected loads of water ice on the moon
"More widespread than we thought."
By
Mark Kaufman
on
October 10, 2024

Quote:

Previous lunar reconnaissance has located ice preserved in profoundly cold craters in or near the moon's south pole, the aptly named "permanently shadowed regions," or PSRs. That's a primary reason why NASA's return to the moon, called the Artemis program, will land near these craters. This new research, published in the peer-reviewed Planetary Science Journal, found significant ice in more distant craters.
"We find that there is widespread evidence of water ice within PSRs outside the south pole, towards at least 77 degrees south latitude," NASA researcher Timothy P. McClanahan, who led the research, said in a statement.

Anyway the upgraded assessments are why I have changed my mind about "Squandering" the water on the Moon to make rocket propellants.

Reality about the matter needs further discovery.

Back to Isaac Arthurs video. The hope would be to use Lunar resources to eventually expand to Deimos/Phobos/Mars.

Something that needs to be said: "Pioneer cultures and Slaver cultures will handle information differently from each other.

A Pioneer culture, such as historically the USA has been, will welcome discovery of the ability for humans to expand into space. A Slaver culture is likely to try to hide such information as they are parasitic on peoples of Hand and Eye abilities. A Slaver culture, can use Hands and Eyes to do brutal things to those they wish to enslave, but primarily their power exists in telling lies about reality, to create capture methods so that they can extract wealth from their captives.

So, probably our reality will contain some amount of lies from the children of the Father of Lies. It at least helps for the people of a Pioneer culture to realize this.
"

So, either Deimos and Phobos will have water ice and maybe Carbon or not. We are being given conflicting information.

But beyond this we think from information that 40% of the asteroids at about 2.1 AU are Carbonaceous in nature.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Elon Musk is reported to have commented on Von Neumann Machines and Optimus robot recently: https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2025/11/o … probe.html
Quote:

Optimus Will be the Von Neumann Probe
November 29, 2025 by Brian Wang
What does Elon mean when he says Optimus Will be the Von Neumann Probe?
Elon is suggesting that Tesla’s Optimus humanoid robot could become the key physical universal constructor at the heart of a real von Neumann probe.

So, imagine a future where the ratio of humans to robots in the near asteroid belt is 1 human to 10,000 or more robots. The production of materials useful to that locality and to our Moon seem probable.

Where we measure everything as to be fostered from Earth resources now, with robots, we can gain materials in space and use solar energy to bring things to our Moon. It only requires the manipulation of objects by robots primarily, and the means of transport.

For delivery of hard objects, it may be that the method of the post #255 of hard landing may be sufficient. Another method would be to hover a tanker ship over a cold shadowed crater and discharge it's burned propellants to condense as ices on the Lunar surfaces. Of course you could do a soft landing as well for a higher price.

Categories of materials of low value, may be Iron and Oxygen. Higher value materials are Nitrogen, Carbon, Hydrogen, and perhaps refined Aluminum.

So, for propellants we might prefer Iron and Oxygen as those can relatively easily be extracted from the Moon.

An Ion Electric drive such as Magdrive or Neumann Drive might be suitable for Iron. For Oxygen expelling Oxygen ice from a Mass Driver might work. Or perhaps an Oxygen "Wetted" Capacitive Ceramic engine with Laser pulses might do. That is if you could make a film of Oxygen cling to a Ceramic and then hit that film with a laser pulse to boil it off of the Ceramic surface. IF the wavelength is tuned correctly then it may be reactive to the Oxygen and hopefully less so of the Ceramic surface.

If in transit, your cargo was largely water ice, Carbon, and Nitrogen, then you might split the water, using the Oxygen as propellant, and then bond the Hydrogen to either the Carbon or Nitrogen to produce Hydrocarbons or Ammonia.

Then once reaching Lunar Orbit perhaps the Plastics, Tar, or lighter Hydrocarbons and Ammonia, could be distributed as a delivered product and be used in CIS Lunar Space or the surface of the Moon.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-12-04 10:52:03)

Void · Yesterday 11:14:28

OK, this is mostly welcome!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/a … sz#image=1
Quote:

Alien life on the moon? New findings say maybe
©Shutterstock
For decades, the moon was seen as a barren, bone-dry world with no atmosphere, no liquid water, no magnetic shield, and extreme swings in temperature. The idea that it could ever support life seemed far-fetched. But recent discoveries are changing that view.
Thanks to new space missions and advanced analysis of lunar rocks and soil, scientists have found surprising signs of water—not just on the surface, but deep within. Some studies suggest the moon’s interior may hold as much water as Earth’s upper mantle, urging scientists to rethink its history and potential.
In this gallery, explore the latest discoveries that are transforming our understanding of the moon and revealing its unexpected potential to support life, whether in the distant past, the present, or the possibilities of the future. Click on for more.

Quote:

Our old friend in the sky
©Getty Images
For as long as we’ve looked up at the night sky, the moon has felt like an old friend, mysterious and full of wonder. It has inspired our stories, guided our dreams, and reminded us how deeply we long to reach beyond our own world.

Quote:

Water’s role in the moon’s birth
©Getty Images
Scientists believe the moon was born from a massive impact about 4.5 billion years ago. While it’s unclear how much water survived that violent event, new models suggest that some water molecules may have been trapped in the debris, eventually becoming part of the moon itself.

Quote:

How water may have reached the moon
©Getty Images
Evidence of water found in lunar basalt samples at concentrations of several hundred parts per million has scientists weighing two possibilities: either water survived the moon’s violent formation, or it arrived soon after through asteroid impacts.

Quote:

The moon’s fiery beginnings
©Getty Images
After it formed, the moon was likely covered in a deep ocean of molten rock. As this magma cooled, it released gases into space, creating short-lived atmospheres that may have helped shape the moon’s early environment.

Quote:

The moon’s ancient atmosphere
©Getty Images
New research suggests the moon’s volcanic activity may have created a temporary atmosphere that lasted around 70 million years. An earlier, thicker atmosphere, formed after the moon’s molten phase, could have lingered even longer.

Quote:

Where water might have lingered on the moon
©Getty Images
Instead of lingering on the surface, water may have been more stable underground. Scientists believe it could have collected in tiny pockets within the thick, broken rock layer created by ancient asteroid impacts, similar to subsurface environments found on Earth.

Quote:

Could the moon have had oceans?
©Getty Images
In the final stages of the moon’s molten phase, known as the lunar magma ocean, significant amounts of water were present. If just 500 parts per million of that water escaped as gas, it could have formed a surface layer up to one kilometer (0.6 miles) thick.

Quote:

Water in the moon’s molten past
©Getty Images
But without a thick atmosphere to hold it in place, much of that water would likely have escaped, especially after asteroid impacts. Still, it shows just how much water might have been there.

Quote:

A glimpse at lunar habitability
©Getty Images
According to Dirk Schulze-Makuch, an astrobiologist at Washington State University and the study’s lead author, if the early moon had both liquid water and a thick atmosphere for extended periods, its surface could have been briefly suitable for life.

Quote:

One theory of life’s origins
©Shutterstock
One theory suggests that once the basic ingredients for life came together, it may have taken less than 10 million years for cyanobacteria, simple, oxygen-producing microbes, to appear.

Quote:

Life may have sparked quickly
©Shutterstock
If the theory holds true, the leap from nonliving matter to a living system might have happened much faster than expected, possibly in just a few thousand years. To put it simply: if life can form quickly, then it’s possible the moon once hosted it.

Quote:

The mystery of life’s first spark
©Getty Images
On the other hand, some scientists argue that we still don’t fully understand how life began on early Earth, especially how it learned to replicate. Because of that, it’s nearly impossible to pin down how long the process might have taken.

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Could life have reached the moon?
©Getty Images
Another theory suggests life may have arrived from elsewhere, carried by meteorites flung across space during the Solar System’s chaotic early years, when giant impacts were common.

Quote:

Could life have reached the moon?
©Getty Images
During the moon’s early history and even later, the theory posits that meteorites launched from Earth by massive impacts likely landed on the lunar surface. Some of these space rocks may have survived the crash, possibly carrying traces of life with them.

Quote:

Could life have reached the moon?
©Shutterstock
Since life may have existed on Earth as early as 4.28 billion years ago, it’s possible that microbes hitched a ride to the moon on meteorites. And if the moon had even a thin atmosphere at the time, it could have slowed those impacts, giving the microorganisms a better chance of surviving the journey.

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Life’s building blocks from afar
©Getty Images
Of course, a livable environment needs more than just water and an atmosphere. While it’s unclear whether the moon had its own organic compounds, scientists believe they could have arrived from Earth, carbon-rich asteroids, or other sources.

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Searching for signs of ancient life
©Getty Images
If the moon ever had habitable environments, would any traces remain today? Unlike Mars, the moon doesn’t show signs of water-shaped terrain; there are no river channels or crater rims softened by flowing liquid. So far, the evidence is elusive.

Quote:

Ancient lunar water may have left no trace
©Getty Images
After four billion years of relentless exposure to solar wind, cosmic radiation, and micrometeorite impacts, it’s unlikely that any surface features shaped by early water have survived on the moon, at least based on current evidence, satellite data, and the lunar soil samples collected during past missions.

Quote:

Lava layers may hold water secrets
©Getty Images
While surface evidence may be scarce, scientists have found limited signs of oxidation and hydrothermal activity in lunar rocks. A promising next step is to search for water in ancient soil layers trapped between lava flows from the moon’s volcanic peak.

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Shared hydration history of Mars and the moon
©Getty Images
Interestingly, scientists believe that early Mars may have formed clay through water released by cooling magma. If that happened on Mars, the same process may have occurred on the moon, too.

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Lunar samples may still hold water clues
©Getty Images
Even if the early moon had far less liquid water than Mars, scientists haven’t ruled it out entirely. Future studies of lunar samples could still uncover signs that water once flowed across the moon’s surface.

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The moon’s brief window for life
©Getty Images
Based on current data, if the early moon had liquid water and a substantial atmosphere for millions of years, its surface was likely at least temporarily habitable and may have held the basic building blocks needed for life to take root.

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A distant possibility
©Getty Images
Whether life ever began on the moon or arrived from elsewhere is still highly speculative. Answering that question will require courageous and sustained lunar exploration in the years ahead.

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The goal for future lunar exploration will be collecting samples from paleoregolith—ancient soil trapped between lava flows from the moon’s volcanic peak. These layers could reveal whether hydrated conditions or other signs of habitability existed during that time.

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Testing life in simulated lunar conditions
©Getty Images
To explore the moon’s potential for life, scientists could run experiments in Earth-based simulation chambers that mimic early lunar conditions.

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A new home for lunar and Martian missions
©Getty Images
One example of innovation in space habitation is Eurohab, an inflatable habitat designed for missions on the moon or Mars. Developed by Peter Weiss and Jean-Jacques Favier, co-founders of Spartan Space, the concept is part of CNES’ "Tech The Moon" program and is backed by the European Space Agency (ESA).

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Earth labs ready to test lunar life
©Getty Images
Many research institutions already have the facilities and tools to simulate early lunar conditions, and they can be adapted to test whether microbes could survive in the moon’s ancient environment.

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Simulating lunar life in Earth labs and orbit
©Getty Images
Moon-analog tests are already underway aboard the International Space Station, including the BIOMEX project, which studies how life responds to space-like environments.

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Secrets waiting to be discovered
©Getty Images
Whether life once flickered beneath its lava flows or drifted in from distant worlds, the answers still rest in its ancient soil. As we continue to explore, the moon might still surprise us, adding a new chapter to its story and changing how we see life beyond Earth.
Sources: (NASA) (Euronews) (Astronomy Magazine) (Futurism)

So, let's find out.

So, I Forsee a contest between the Pioneer Nature and the Slaver Natures. The Slavers will try to use this as an impediment to Pioneer expansion into the solar system as they see all humans, especially trust cultures with talents as their food. They do not want their food to leave the planet and be out of reach.

So, we are just going to have to explain to them that we could make their lives very not nice.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Yesterday 11:52:55)

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#251 2025-10-18 11:31:47

Re: The Moon

#252 2025-10-21 19:18:21

Re: The Moon

#253 2025-11-05 12:02:45

Re: The Moon

#254 2025-11-22 09:53:53

Re: The Moon

#255 2025-12-02 09:01:28

Re: The Moon

#256 2025-12-04 09:35:01

Re: The Moon

#257 Yesterday 11:14:28

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