My Hacienda On Mars

SpaceNut · 2019-09-01 18:08:17

The duties of law enforcer and subjective penalty was in early times of crossing the oceans of the world fell on the shoulders of the ships Captain and I would see that mars would not be any different in those early years as there will be limited duties for the captain once they land. The second roll of planet law enforcement would naturally fall on the captain for that reason.

My post number 5 of the topic covers the many topics to aid in this aspect.
Robert Dyck as well on the first page would serve as well for this purpose as demonstrated by his posts.

The farming aspects of the plots would be deverse as nutrition and growing season is longer than that of earths. So crop timing is greatly needed as we would want to be able to have food to make salads nearly continous which means stagered plantings of each food type you would like in that salad. Referring to the crop topics and verticle farming plus indoor farming discussions. One must remember just how large a 1 km plot will be.

SpaceNut · 2019-09-01 19:58:31

Sometimes I have a problem with envisioning the size of metric versus english measurements.

https://www.metric-conversions.org/area … -acres.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acre

hillside dwelling

tahanson43206 · 2019-09-02 11:32:18

For SpaceNut re today's edits ...

Thanks for adding your plot number to the record for My Hacienda, and for updating the County Recorder record!

I've also added a couple of updates.

For Louis ... while your plot had no entries until now, I'm wondering if you would be willing to concentrate on the directions you've already written about extensively. I thought of: entertainment, park, recreation .... there may be other specializations you'd want to add to your design.

One thing I think seems assured ... everyone in the settlement will automatically think of Louis' place when contemplating a drink or a meal after a shift, or entertaining guests from "out of town".

To see the Recorder record, search for S e a r c h t e r m: and :r e c o r d e r / author: tahanson43206

(th)

Edit SpaceNut:
Sagan City is now defined as Plot0000 Master plan
Plots for waste recovery and pipelines are now in the registry as well

SpaceNut · 2019-09-03 17:49:52

I would say that plot0000 master plan for timing and build up of the population of mars is done for the next couple of decades at which as more flight to mars take place not from just one group of intended settlers then the plan must be revisited to guide the future mars.

Plot0001 Law and order can reside in plot0003 until population has suceeded in giving enough bodies to build the permanent seat on its plot to govern mars from.

current plot registry assigned purposes

tahanson43206 wrote:

Plot allocations for Sagan City (2018):
0000 Louis Mater plan for Sagan City
0001 Louis Entertainment Facility Park Recreation
0002 RobertDyck Proposed: Law and order seat of power
0003 SpaceNut Proposed: Toehold settlement
0004 Terraformer Bamboo and Paper
0005 JoshNH4H
0006 tahanson43206 Proposed economic activity: Banking: First Bank of NewMars
0007 kdb512 Proposed: Nuclear power facility
0008 SpaceNut Proposed economic activity: Support of Mobile Exploration Train
0009 Proposed economic activity: Support of Exploration Teams
0010 Proposed economic activity: Support of Exploration Teams
0011 RobertDyck Proposed: Provisional life support plant
0012 VOID Insitu pipeline manufacturing and connectivity of plots
0013 SpaceNut Waste stream recovery processing
0014
0015
7800 Last plot for Sagan City 2018
Plots numbered above 7800 can be anywhere on Mars.
(th)
SpaceNut
Edits to table of plot owners and proposed purpose
Edit 2019/09/02 ... tahanson43206 ... added more suggestions for plot focus
Edit master plan topic for Sagan City
Edit Void award in memory of contribution

tahanson43206 · 2019-09-04 09:39:03

For SpaceNut re p l o t 0 0 1 2 in honor of Void ...

I really like the idea of remembering void, but I'm concerned that the plot will languish without an owner who is present to update it.

May I offer a suggestion for Plot #12 ?

The community is going to need a memorial location soon enough, and potentially in the first year.

Could I suggest changing the title of #12 to Memorial Gardens, and add the name "Void" to the title as a gesture of appreciation.

Then, ownership could go to a member (hopefully a new member) who is interested in taking up the specialization of Memorial Services, Planning and Siting.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2019-09-04 09:44:14

For everyone regarding the My Hacienda topic ...

It is energizing for me to see the My Hacienda topic beginning to show some signs of extended life after the initial burst of support from members.

There is a small problem developing ... the FluxBB search tool can easily be confused by a proliferation of expressions of the form: plot####

I'm hoping members will try to avoid cluttering up the search pool by insuring that two and only two citations exist in the archive.

The first should be in the Master Record (see P l o t m a s t e r) or [ p l o t 0 0 0 0]

The second should be in the post that the owner of that plot intended to use as the anchor for a particular plot.

I recognize that I have contributed to the proliferation of excess instances of plot references, and I will clean them up over time.

Thanks!
(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2019-09-04 09:45:23)

SpaceNut · 2019-09-04 17:44:48

Plot0003 will be considered holy ground and its temporary structures will be removed sometime in the second decade on mars making this the final resting location for a memorial barer in Voids name. The ships that remain on the site will be like museum location for such a plan. The plot0003 ownership would be transferred after full move to plot0012 is complete. There by providing a continual growth of the city by interconnection for the good of the city.

Mater plot table has been update with more business opportunities

Showing the newly added

0012 VOID Insitu pipeline manufacturing and connectivity of plots
0013 SpaceNut Waste stream recovery processing
0014 Grocery/General store
0015 Dental Services
0016 Medical Services/General practitioner
0017 Medical Services/Hospital/Research/Teaching
0018 Hardware/supplies/services
0019 Electrical supplies and services
0020 Plumbing supplies and services
0021 Construction Supplies and services
0022 Materials movement services and storage
0023 Energy supplies and services, excluding nuclear (see Plot0007)
0024
0025
0026
0027

Post #31 indicates self sufficiency and that conflicts with many business as its a requirement of the plot owner to do these things....
So there must be a level that says we are not 100% efficient in fending for the plot for all needs for business to grow.

Edit 9/11/19
Continuing with the initial site being a temporary status these first set of business will seek to set up on Plot 3 with the redundancy sites being on other plots for the future:

Redundanct is the key to survival and the initial work for business proposals will be not different to start.
Discusion on topic Air. Shelter. Water. Food.
Priority list:
Oxygen generation systems
water generation
Food greenhouse
waste removal and recovery or recycling ( feed stock for oxygen and water)
power (progressive use of kilowatt reactors and solar array farms)
new shelters and structures to be built by priority
These 6 temporary will be repeated on shared plots as follows:
0008 SpaceNut Proposed economic activity: Support of Mobile Exploration Train
0009 Proposed economic activity: Support of Exploration Teams
0010 Proposed economic activity: Support of Exploration Teams
They will be duoble of the capability of the first group as they will be needed to support the second landings from the monent that they are there.

Original plot structures will be removed on Plot0003 once permanent much large future support elements are constructed and activated for colony growth some time after the exploration phase of mars first decades of landing.

SpaceNut · 2019-09-04 20:50:53

Something else to consider for the plot assignment is space between the plots asa planned not all property in use.
images of city street planned plot layouts

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_plan

Natural barriers alter the shape but not the acreage

tahanson43206 · 2019-09-04 21:13:57

For SpaceNut re #83 ....

There are large sections of the US laid out on square mile grid lines. I live in a part of the country where those layouts are still in evidence.

Surveyors had to adjust the grid as they worked their way North (because the Earth is a sphere), and every now and then a traveler will encounter a curious jog in the road, caused by the decision to adjust the grid back to square at that point.

Something like that may be required on Mars, if the strict grid concept is applied there.

In thinking about Sagan City (2018) earlier, I had imagined that there would be tunnels under the surface to facilitate movement of people and goods (and delivery of gases, liquids and electricity via conduits), so that surface roadways would be less important than is true on Earth.

However, by planning ahead to insure the custom of reserving a space for a two lane road along the plot lines, as was done in the US layouts described above, the individuals or groups assuming ownership of plots should be prepared for that allocation of space on the landscape.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2019-09-05 19:12:00

Reminder of the goals

The topic My Hacienda is set up to encourage up to 2750 forum members to build a virtual community.
Each participant "claims" a square kilometer of surface, and shares below surface with the community.
Each Hacienda is a participant in the economy of a thriving interdependent free market.
Each Hacienda provides at least one product or service, and multiple products or services are welcome.

The tunneling for passage would follow the grid in between properties such that you would connect at many possible locations along the 1 km square plots.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_level_underground
Since these will have pressure in them the suggest easiest cut and fill will be out for trenching so this leaves boring at a given depth.

Deep level underground refers to constructions 20 metres or more below ground and not using the cut and cover method, especially train stations, air raid shelters and bunkers and some tunnels and mines. Cut-and-cover is a simple method of construction for shallow tunnels where a trench is excavated and roofed over with an overhead support system strong enough to carry the load of what is to be built above the tunnel.

So how wide would the tunnel be is more dependant on the size of the equipment that must pass with in them. People would be easy even in vehicles.

Elon musks company
https://www.boringcompany.com/faq

First, we reduced the tunnel diameter. The current standard for a one-lane tunnel is approximately 28 feet. By using electric autonomous vehicles with alignment wheels, the diameter can be reduced to less than 14 feet. Reducing the diameter in half reduces tunneling costs by 3-4 times.

under ground tunnel images

In essence tunnels are the support means for pipelines of all types to run. That said we will have many to make the installation possible. It would be exhausting for space suits to build them on the surface. Identified as Plot0012... This is the topic which talks to how these tunnels can be used for Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars to which it discusses the use in all formats of gas, liquid and people. The first tunnels might even be used for growing food of all sorts with in them as well.

SpaceNut · 2019-09-06 19:39:11

Reviewing the powerpoint from the http://www.marshome.org/files2/MarsHome … -12-05.ppt

O2 42.5%, Si 20%, Fe 15%, Mg 5%, Al 5%, Ca 4%, Na 3%, S 2%, P 1%, Cl 0.8%, K 0.6%, Ti 0.6%, Mn 0.3%, Cr 0.2%

Typical mars soils content of minerals

CO2 95.3%, N2 2.7%, Ar 1.6%, O2 0.15%, H2O 0.03%

Atmospheric content at the 5 - 7 mb pressure.

http://www.marshome.org/files2/MarsHome … ecture.pdf

60kPa internal pressure – 10 m of regolith are required

converting kPa to PSI or even Bars would be better for the average person to under stand.... 1 kPa to PSI = 0.14504 PSI

answer is 8.70 which is not a bad pressure to be at for breathing...

The pipeline tunnels will need to be more as the pressure goes up if we are not using a real pipe to cary the product from or to a plot..

Multi-Robot Hillside Excavation Strategies for Mars Settlement Construction

tahanson43206 · 2019-09-06 20:01:39

For SpaceNut re #86 ...

The Multi-robot pdf is an impressive find! Thanks!

it is dated 2017 so is quite fresh in 2019.

The first thing I thought of as I started looking at the pdf is RobertDyck's vision of terraced homes North of Vancouver in Canada.

The automated excavation concept developed and modeled by the authors of the paper you linked for us could (surely) be implemented on Earth, and potentially at more than one location.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2019-09-07 08:41:48

Discusion topics on newmars for the following:

Currency and banking
A Mars currency
Why is a Mars currency important to the development of Mars? single post
Currency systems for self-sufficient Martian colonies
Money,Martian currency,whose face on the marsbill?
Gold Coins for the ProtoMartian People - (and NO paper money)
Martian Currency - Will there be a single planetarycurrency
Martian Gold Standard - Will Martian money be as good as gold?

Economy
Key features of a Mars economy
Mars - a multi-billion dollar economy within 5 years

Government and law
Corporate Government
Solar Federal Republic
A Constitution of Mars; Scientocracy
Mars, Government, and Rights note needs fixing....

There are more topics than these just change the key word search to find more but this is a good start

SpaceNut · 2019-09-10 17:38:00

tahanson43206 wrote:

The topic My Hacienda is set up to encourage up to 2750 forum members to build a virtual community.
Each participant "claims" a square kilometer of surface, and shares below surface with the community.
Each Hacienda is a participant in the economy of a thriving interdependent free market.
Each Hacienda provides at least one product or service, and multiple products or services are welcome.
As of this Sol, the number of plots established in Sagan City (2018) is: > 1 (inventory pending) [Thanks to everyone who registered!]
Recruiting Announcement: People are needed to participate in the Sagan City (2018) Virtual Community
The concept is to imagine life on Mars at the level of current 1st Tier civilization on Earth. This community is assumed well past startup phases.
The objective is to gain a clear understanding of the operation of market forces in a community of 2750 plots. Community members have needs.

It will actually take decades to be at the point where the developer will require outside business as the plots are intented to be self sufficient. It will take breakdowns to cause business opportunity to happen for commodities and or assistance for what has failed.

Say the oxygen recycling system fails and deliveries from earth just happened.

That would mean the parts can not be had for a mars cycle for the 2 plus year period.

Its going to be an issue for getting that part if you do not have the cash to get it to you as well.

Hopefully the neighbor will have excess oxygen to allow for purchase but that could als further dig the plot owner into the poor house.

tahanson43206 · 2019-09-11 12:39:09

For SpaceNut re #89

First, thanks for your continued support of My Hacienda as a topic!

And then, thanks to RobertDyck for taking a chance on this topic. I hope it lives up to its potential, over time.

My vision for My Hacienda is a bit different (perhaps) than the consensus I am picking up from forum members.

With the objective in mind of trying to invite folks who are not necessarily Space Enthusiasts to start with, I am imagining Sagan City (2018) as existing at a point in time in the future, AFTER all the hard work of pioneering has been completed.

In fact, the state-of-the-art is the My Hacienda community (as I am imagining it) is remarkably similar to life on Earth in 2019, in first tier countries, or in countries aspiring to first tier status, which includes just about everyone, as far as I can tell.

The distinction of the My Hacienda community, compared to a community of similar size on Earth, is that it is located on Mars, where conditions are well defined and not likely to change for at least 100 years.

So the time frame of My Hacienda is somewhere in the 50 to 100 years distance.

Thus, I am proposing that a member of the community can publish a hankering for fresh tomatoes, and someone with the appropriate entrepreneurial interests can undertake the thought process for how to produce high quality tomatoes for that customer, on Mars.

The prospective producer of tomatoes will need a number of things from the community, and those will need to be supplied by entrepreneurs who have an interest in those specialties, and who are willing to go through the thought process to figure out how to provide those goods or services on Mars.

In my vision for this hypothetical community, there is a definite place for imports from Earth. For example, this weekend on Mars, folks might enjoy a sip of Guinness Stout, imported from Earth at great expense by Louis of Louis' Entertainment Emporium.

I can easily imagine a cubic centimeter of this precious substance costing 100 Phobos (One Phobos is presumed to have an interplanetary valuation of $1 US).

Hopefully Louis will still be able to make a small profit, after paying the transportation company.

Regarding delivery of supplies from Earth, I think it is reasonable to assume that deliveries will arrive at least monthly, because freight shipments in particular can take as long as necessary without inconvenience to anyone.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2019-09-11 12:40:40)

SpaceNut · 2019-09-11 19:08:34

stake holder plot primary updated

secondary plot and exploratory phase goals of use expanded for build out priority.

SpaceNut · 2019-09-21 16:42:43

Repost with regards to my post above #86

RobertDyck wrote:

I appreciate what you're trying to do. Inuit may not be the best. Sherpas of Tibet may be more adapted, because they breathe lower pressure. Apollo launched with 1 atmosphere whole air, but bled air as it ascended. It operated with 5 psi pure oxygen, but could operate with 3.5 psi under defined conditions. Skylab used 5 psi with 60% O2 / 40% N2. Apollo spacesuits (A7L, and for Apollo 15 and later A7L-B) used 3.7 psi pure oxygen. Earth at sea level has 3.0 psi partial pressure O2, and Boulder Colorado has 2.54 psi partial pressure O2.
Documents show early Apollo designs were to use 3.3 psi pure O2. Rationale was a 10% pressure leak would leave them with 3.0 psi which is the same pp as Earth sea level.
This is important for spacesuit design. Dr Paul Webb developed a prototype suit for Apollo but it wasn't ready in time. His MCP suit was safer, more comfortable, greater range of joint movement, less couterforce to movement. Cooling system was a lot simpler, safer, lighter. His prototype used the same 3.3 psi as early Apollo suit designs. It worked. The issue is suits designed for Shuttle and ISS use 4.3 psi. That's because Shuttle and ISS use 1 atmosphere pressure. Before decompressing in a suit astronauts must prebreathe pure O2 for 17 hours to flush out N2 from their blood. If they don't, they'll get the bends. Reducing suit pressure to Apollo level would require even longer oxygen prebreathe. This creates major problems. An MCP suit can work easily with materials from the late 1960s using 3.3 psi, but researchers still haven't developed a practical MCP suit that works at 4.3 psi. Of course the real solution is use the same atmosphere as Skylab: 5.0 psi @ 60/50 O2/N2. Then you could not only use 3.7 psi like Apollo suits, or 3.3 psi like early Apollo development, you could reduce suit pressure further to 3.0 psi. All this would not require any oxygen prebreathe from Skylab pressure. At 3.0 psi you would have to be careful to keep breathing humidity high. You could do that with a nose/mouth breathing mask like a fighter jet. Low humidity over eyes to prevent the visor from fogging. A head-worn helmet like Gemini solves another problem: it could be a crash helmet like a motorcycle helmet, for safety when driving an ATV. Apollo head-worn helmet solved the issue of moving the neck when a gas bag suit is pressurized, but isn't necessary for an MCP suit.
You could adjust pressure further for Mars. With 3.0 psi suit pressure, habitat could use 2.7 psi partial pressure O2 so astronauts are accustomed to 10% less O2 than suit air. Still more O2 than Boulder CO. Max N2 for zero prebreathe is 1.2 time total suit pressure so max have N2 would be 3.6 psi. Then add argon. Earth atmosphere has 0.93% argon. You could add some argon to increase Hab pressure. To make it easy produces Hab air on Mars, make the ratio of N2:Ar the same as Mars atmospher. Viking 2 lander measured 2.7% N2, 1.6% Ar, so this would give the Hab 2.133 psi partial pressure Ar. There's also a maximum partial pressure of argon for zero prebreathe but this is below that. That would give the Hab a total of 2.7 + 3.6 + 2.133 = 8.433 psi.
But NASA has gotten stuck on the idea that suit pressure *HAS TO BE* 4.3 psi. So MCP development is blocked. Ps, an MCP spacesuit is machine washable.

SpaceNut · 2019-09-21 16:44:09

This would also lower the amount of energy to get co2 to the needed pressure levels for oxygen for a given volume.

SpaceNut · 2019-09-22 09:39:15

Something to remember is the mission cycles and each mission goals change such that the Sagan city of mars grows with side business creation is a second goal for each. The primary goal is science and survival with second is expansion and creation of business to support the future.

tahanson43206 · 2019-09-23 06:57:01

For GW Johnson ...

By any chance, would you be interested in developing a concept for education in Sagan City (2018)?

The city I am thinking about exists post-settlement. It is composed of at least 2750 enterprises which are both self-sufficient and market-interactive. In the context of a state-of-the-art community (2019 or later), I am interested in the challenge of insuring that at all times there is at least one human present who understands and can actively manage every technology present in the community.

In light of the difficulty humans on Earth have trying to persuade their offspring to learn enough to keep the culture going, I think it will be amazing if humans on Mars can sustain a technologically astute population.

Science fiction writers I have read over the years all (seem to me to) assume that humans will devolve into mindless denizens of whatever advanced technology they were born into.

The evidence on Earth would seem to suggest there is ample precedent for that pessimistic view.

You can see the ideas for activities in Sagan City (2018) at this address: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 75#p154875

(th)

SpaceNut · 2019-09-23 18:12:17

Library, community arts center, technology as in computers plus internet, communication center...history center not just mars

tahanson43206 · 2019-09-23 20:31:33

For SpaceNut re #96 ... added as plot 0031 .... Note education facilities are listed as 28, 29 and 30.

SpaceNut · 2019-09-24 17:37:35

Here are some other topics for plot considerations Not all need to be under a dome as some could be underground

Creating the Outdoors Indoors

An Island getaway on Mars

Creating the feel of a natural environment on Mars

What Biome's are needed on Mars

tahanson43206 · 2019-09-24 18:59:38

For SpaceNut re #98

Thanks for providing those links!

Creating the Outdoors Indoors

It was interesting and a bit humbling to see that conversation from 2006, between Tom Kalbfus and the gent from New Zealand.

I thought that on the whole the gent from New Zealand held up his side of the conversation quite well.

Kalbfus seemed concerned with trying to develop resources in whatever location on Earth might be chosen for a Mars test community.

My understanding of his side of the discussion is that (I think) he was imagining extraction of resources as a reason for people to live at the location.

In a separate topic, I am trying to encourage discussion of a test community on Earth, NOT designed around selling raw materials to others on Earth, but instead, designed around gathering the brightest and best educated people on Earth to work the problem of living ** comfortably ** off world. The intellectual property developed should have enormous economic value as the world lurches into a time of more vigorous weather and sea level rise.

Edit:

Creating the feel of a natural environment on Mars

it was interesting to see Void in full creative mode, interacting with Louis about ice as a structural material for domes. Louis seemed a bit dubious, but Void definitely seemed to be having fun with exploration of that idea. Elderflower contributed an observation about ice caves in moons. SpaceNut contributed images to add to the flow.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2019-09-24 19:51:21)

SpaceNut · 2019-10-01 16:18:05

Your post for more business venues:

tahanson43206 wrote:

For all regarding this topic ... Team Sports in Canada
I was inspired by the thought that Canadian members of this forum might (not guaranteed, of course) have an interest in sports that might also be of interest in a (proposed) 2750 plot community on Devon Island (or equivalent Northern location).
Mr. Google came up with this:
Sports in Canada - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Sports_in_Canada
Sports in Canada consist of a wide variety of games. The most common sports are ice hockey, lacrosse, gridiron football, soccer, basketball, curling and baseball, with ice hockey and lacrosse being the official summer and winter sports, respectively.
Governance · National sports · Team sports · Individual sports
Translating these results to the Mars simulation, I see a need for a huge, vaulted enclosed space ala Louis in his expansive moments, or void on an ordinary day.
However, smaller vaulted spaces might work for some of the sports listed, and the audience could be (would be) participating by video feed. The all-important sound of fan response is quite possible in this scenario, if audio feedback is provided from each observing space to the vaulted arena. Visual feedback is also possible, as suggested by the use of smartphone lights to send simultaneous mass signals at large events.
For RobertDyck ... out of curiosity, and if you are willing, which (if any) of these sports do you follow?
I am open to all of them, but tend to stay with baseball (#1) football (#2) basketball (3A) and soccer (3B)
No doubt there are non-team sports (such as tennis, boxing, dancing-as-a-sport, racket ball) that might be of interest to a Canadian, and suitable for consideration for the My Hacienda community.
(th)

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Re: My Hacienda On Mars

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Re: My Hacienda On Mars

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Re: My Hacienda On Mars

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Re: My Hacienda On Mars

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Re: My Hacienda On Mars

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Re: My Hacienda On Mars

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Re: My Hacienda On Mars

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Re: My Hacienda On Mars

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Re: My Hacienda On Mars

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Re: My Hacienda On Mars

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Re: My Hacienda On Mars

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Re: My Hacienda On Mars

#88 2019-09-07 08:41:48

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

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Re: My Hacienda On Mars

#90 2019-09-11 12:39:09

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

#91 2019-09-11 19:08:34

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

#92 2019-09-21 16:42:43

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

#93 2019-09-21 16:44:09

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

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Re: My Hacienda On Mars

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Re: My Hacienda On Mars

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Re: My Hacienda On Mars

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Re: My Hacienda On Mars

#98 2019-09-24 17:37:35

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

#99 2019-09-24 18:59:38

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

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Re: My Hacienda On Mars

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