New Mars Forums

OK, I will bite.  I will try to keep to the channel of thinking you have suggested, more than the original posts intent.

In my opinion censorship does have its place, especially for those who have not achieved adulthood.  We might say maybe (Up to) 24-26 years old.  But that is to seek to keep the attention of the individual to a greater proportion onto things that are going to more benefit the immature individual, and also ultimately the community as well.

A child mind may be like a container that you know will fill with something.  A basement might be somewhat similar.  It is usually filled with air which is a fluid.  But in a flood the basement may fill with dirty water, even sewage.  In a case like that I have read that a good thing to do is to fill the basement with clean water if you can before the flood overwhelms the basement.

So, you might focus less on exclusion, if you make sure that the greater amount of inclusion is Healthy.

An ugly thing that needs to be looked at is the relationship between rule enforcement and criminal activity. 

The process of addition of content can involve repetition of suggestion.  This is not unlike advertisement or hypnosis, I believe.

Additions could be good, such as repeating healthy food consumption or appropriate exercises.  This could be considered angelic in the nice way.

But demonic (In a bad way), is what power players seek to do to the general population to extract social energy from the vulnerable.

The Police, when corrupt, can act as a pimp.  They will only enforce law when it suits all the players, the Elites, the Police, and Organized Crime.

And this can be crafted in such a way as to damage people and make them dependent on a pusher of satisfaction of desires, produced by the damage inflicted.  And this can pose as high morality.

Since there are so many vampires that want to draw blood energy, at the mention of "X", (And you know what I mean), lets talk about prohibition of alcohol.

The Elites, and the Police, and Organized Crime may in some cases desire prohibition.  All it takes is corrupt people who like to organize, into a criminal cycle.  Let's say I am a "Punk" hillbilly, and I am running moonshine.  If Organized Crime can try to incorporate me into their setup, but also they could set me up as a bad example.

They tell particular Elites on the payroll about this individual, and the Police are informed, and I get a public shaming and a trip to the slammer.  The Elites have an opportunity to showboat about how they are cleaning up the city.

And I, a "Punk" player gets neutralized, and out of the competition for the underground booze business.

I believe that this is going on with "X", but the danger of even speaking of it as much as I have is significant.  And the problem is that the immature are being directed into forms of "X" that are not harmonious with their happiness.  They are being imprinted improperly, and that is on purpose.  People who are broken are looking for a "Fix".  So, breaking them is profitable.

And so the mating process is interfered with by the power cycle I have described.

So, it is not as simple as saying "We will find the good people and have them define what is clean.  Then we will let them censor information."

It is a real problem figuring out how to do proper guidance without bending to the greed of the powerful.

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It is said that 6% of men are psychopaths.  But no one is even looking for women psychopaths.  (They often slip though the cracks).

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The idea of a Starship that could lead to Mars, and enter the atmosphere and land, is a wonderful goal to seek.  Like being a champion athlete.

I support it, perhaps especially for the early transfer of humans to Mars from Earth.

Some members here, not much including me, have considered large ships which would appear later on.

However, I am very interested in electric propulsion methods to bring the bulk of cargo to Mars orbit from the Earth/Moon.

Those that are relatively proven are using scarce propellants.  I have my eye on abundant propellant substitutes.

1) Argon is the more abundant one on both Earth and Mars.  It may not preform as well as Xenon or Krypton, but is comparatively abundant.

2) Neumann Drive

3) MagDrive

#2 and #3 are tiny babie technologies at this point, it has to be admitted, but I want to try to evaluate them.

It seems that some work has gone towards a hybrid where a bulk of Argon and a small amount of Xenon can be used.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 7X18302446
Here is a different article: https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 … 25-00160-y

Here is a compairison of Electric vs. Chemical propulsions: https://www.dawnaerospace.com/latest-ne … orchemical

Question: "How well does the Neumann Drive compair to othere electric rockets?"  (Answers may varry due to type of propellants used, I suspect).

Question: "What is the ISP of the Neumann Drive?"
https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2015/09/n … which.html
Quote:

*That seems impressive, but it is still a small-scale device.

Question: "What is the ISP of the MagDrive?"
I was unable to get a good answer on my computer so I consulted the AI assistant on my phone.  It said:
2000-5000 seconds.  But the engine will give more thrust at 2000 seconds, and be more efficient at 5000 seconds.

So, MagDrive may be somewhere between other electric rockets and chemical rockets in performance.

It is not expected that Either Neumann Drive or MagDrive will ever lift a load off of the surface of Earth, I beleive.

The power I see that is going to be wonderful is that if the Superheavy/Starship can be considered to be the Panama Canal of lifters, then electric propulsions can carry cargo across oceans of space.

And with these capabilites comes a flexibility on launch dates.  You do not have to have a assult on the normandy beach every two years or so.  You can generally launch with much larger windows available.

But these will need electric power.
-Nuclear (Regulated by nations, probably restricted).
-Solar Photovoltaic.
-Solar Thermal.

I took a stab at converting a Starship into part of a Solar Thermal power plant, in my just prior post #149.  It may not be practical, but I want to examine it anyway.

My understanding is that some of the companies with the participitation of the Elon Musk, have notions of making a part serve multiple functions over time if that is possible.  That is very sensible if you are expanding into a wilderness, especially.

We should have a special word for that.  "Multipurpose over Time?".

1) So, if we could fly a Starship as "Expendable/Not Really", to lift 250 to 300 tons of cargo to orbit, then could we;
2) Incorporate it into a solar-thermal power plant, and then;
3) Convert it to shelter if desired at Deimos/Phobos/Mars?

Doing so for Mars orbits should be relatively easy.  And on arrival, then materials from Deimos/Phobos/Mars could be used to make the shelters more useful/habitable.

It would be trickier to get them down to the surface of Mars.  You would have to put a heat shield onto them and also add the flaps and motors.  You would also have to revive the chemical thrust systems to be sufficient in power and reliability.  It might be better to simply manufacture Starships that can travel from Earth to Mars and land on Mars.

But the use of "Expendable/Not Really" Starships in association with the Mars moons makes a lot of sense to me.

So settlement of Mars would be on all three worlds, Deimos/Phobos/Mars.

If power plants can be made in part out of Starships and cargo can be moved to Mars orbits using that power and an electric rocket system, then a cargo transport will be wanted to transfer loads Mars Orbit<>Mars Surface.

Human travel will likely be handled by faster travel systems, but Cargo in bulk could be transfered primarily by electric propulsion systems, I feel.

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As I understand it often the more of something you make the lower the price can be.

So, if a method could be found to make "Expendable/Not Really" Starships more in demand, we might drop the price on the average Starship, presuming the ingredients that make a Starship do not encounter shortages.

Can we make them into heat engines?  So, to generate electricity and perhaps also propulsion?

https://www.humanmars.net/search/label/Lunar%20Starship
Image Quote:

OK, after it does its one time lift of cargo, perhaps 250-300 tons of cargo, then seal it up and make it into a radiator, and mount a thin mirror on it to focus solar energy onto it.

Perhaps salvage certain parts like the raptor engines and avionics.

Bond radiator fins onto its outer surface, perhaps made of Aluminum.  Perhaps those being chevron in nature to protect from impactors.

Chevron: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Ch … EP&first=1

Parallel chevron fins may block an impactor, but the gaps between fins may allow infrared photons to be rejected into space.

So, the mirrors being large, one mirror may connect to another one at the perimeters of the mirrors, and a modified "Expendable/Not Really" Starship could be assigned to each mirror.

And the electrical power might be used for many purposes.

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I might entertain the idea of a "Habitable Radiator" also.

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A video about job forecasting related to AI and Robot displacements.

A site for it: https://www.youtube.com/@DrunkenIntelligence

The Video: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE  Quote:

The video is long and a bit tedious but could be very important to young people who may need to select where they should put their attention.

The white-collar jobs are generally at risk; I think at least the lower status ones.  But the robots are going to come and I think it will not be that far off until you can "Fast Food", where a robot deploys your cheeseburger, or fries and drink.  The good news on that is that with lowered labor costs it might be possible to upgrade the food from junk level to a more nutritious value.

I myself could do electric work, as I have in the past.  But I am long retired and am not interested in displacing a job from some young person who could get value out of it.

I am glad that I got experience in programming as I think it helped to build my mind.  But I could see that people from India were going to take over that.  Now it appears that AI will take those jobs from them. 

So, programming is not a thing to chase after, it appears.

It is rather sad for India.  But maybe they are adaptive enough to build something of value using their minds and training.

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This is not all bad news, as technically our labor pool is expanding.  In the shorter term, I suspect people with good mental and emotional potential may be reassigned to less repetitive work which involves the use of hands.  That might employ some of them.

But eventually we will have to cope with a world where, AI and robots can do almost everything that produces economic gain.

In that world, should I live long enough my HealthSpan might be expanded to 1000  years, or AI will end me before "Too Hot" soup burns my mouth in a nursing home.

I call it a win, either way.

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Because of a video I viewed recently, I asked this question as a query: "SpaceX manufacture 1000 starships a year?"

The answer I got was:

A related Article: https://elonbuzz.com/how-spacex-builds- … nnovation/  Quote:

Dr. Zubrin wants Starboat, so do some others: https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2025/03/z … rboat.html  Quote:

Other vendors may be able to make small ships that could ride in the cargo compartment of Starship.
1) Rocket Lab  (Carbon Ship) (Metha Lox)
2) Stoke Space (Novel Heat Shield) (Hydro Lox)
3) Blue Origins (Interesting Moon Lander) (Hydro Lox)
4) Relativity Space (Upper Stage might be good) (Metha Lox)

And perhaps the Europeans and China might make one.

The point is if SpaceX becomes a vendor to put their craft into LEO, it can make a lot of money from them but they might make a lot of money as well doing it.

There will be many options as to what to do with Starships but Expendable/Not Really is one.

A Bare Bones Starship could lift a ship to LEO, and then being stranded in LEO, might be fetched to another orbit by an electric rocket system.

This could be facilitated by the lifting of electric propellants to orbit.  Since I think SpaceX is very serious about reusable Starship, that have sufficient heat shielding, one tanker of Argon, or of metal electric rocket propellants might be all that is needed.

So, Expendable/Not Really Starships could be lifted to a new orbit for further use.  Not Expendable after all.  While it might be clever to render a Starship into metal propellants for MagDrive or Neumann Drive, it may be more efficient to manufacture the metal propellants on Earth and then have a propellant Starship lift them to LEO.

So, an expendable Starship could be transported to a Lunar Orbit by electric propulsion and refilled in Lunar Orbit and landed.  The propellants to land may come only from Earth, or partially from the Moon.  Perhaps Oxygen from the Moon.

Ships that were carried to LEO by Starship could be the transports for LOX from the Moon and perhaps Metal Propellants as well.

This same method might be used to transport Starships to Mars, might be used as well.  Those might stay in orbit to be in association with Photos or Deimos or might need at least a "One-Time" heat shield to be able to land on Mars.

I see this as a wonderful option after the pioneer setup is done on Mars by Interplanetary Metha Lox / Oxygen Starships.

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Along the lines of previous posts here I am thinking that the focus on Hydrogen has been a red herring.

Carbon should be the focus.

The point is we burn coal that was in bogs a long time ago.  True it is relatively dirty to burn.

So, if you make an artificial bog by including Carbon from pyrolysis, and wet it down, and put bog vegetation over it.
You then have a Carbon storage device.

The process of Pyrolysis of vegetation might create a vapor stream that could be polluting.  However, if its volatile materials could be ported to Precision Fermentation, specially produced Hydrogen and Methane, this might be reduced.
Ideally nothing would be released to the atmosphere, except CO2 from the digestion process of microbes.  Cellular farming might also be done this way.

So, then the Charcoal produced could be interred into a bog, but some of it could be made into Charcoal Briquettes.  This I read could be done using some Starch or some sawdust?  That and a press, I presume.

The point is, if you are burning only Carbon that you pulled from the atmosphere, you are "Net Zero".

And of course I see this pyrolysis to be driven by Solar and Wind primarily.

So, for high latitudes and other places you can have backup energy that is based on Carbon.

I think that a modern Carbon combustion plant might use pulverized Carbon and so maybe be more easily started than a traditional coal power plant.

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I wanted to get this phrase to re-emerge in the conversation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torrefaction
Quote:

So, my current thinking is to connect solar, wind, Torrefaction, Precision Fermentation, and Cellular Farming together.

So, this would be Net Zero, but not focus on Hydrogen or Methane as an energy storage device but focus on Carbon instead, with a Net Zero or better result.

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I want to make sure that I do not profess to be proficient at rocket science, but if you can tolerate that, then we can talk.

Dr. Zubrin wants a "Mini-Starship".  That would have one sea level and one vacuum engine.

I think Rocket Lab could eventually make a Moonship that could be carried to orbit or suborbital and could then go to the Moon.

I think Stoke Space might be able to upsize their NOVA ship.

So, then beyond what SpaceX plans to do with their 1st and 2nd stages to make money and to send the 2nd stage to Mars, these options may emerge.

And I speculate on 2 options:

1) Do, an "Expendable/Not Really" on the 2nd stage to get the "3rd" stage poised to do it's maximum capability.  I don't really consider this to be expendable unless you de-orbit the 2nd Stage.  The materials of the 2nd stage may be of some value in LEO.

2) Do suborbital with the 2nd Stage and land it.  Send the "3rd" stage to orbit from suborbital.  This then reduces the amount of heating for the 2nd Stage.  But you probably need a deal with someone on the other side of the planet for landing and launching the Starship.  (Maybe not the Superheavy).

One thing that interests me a lot is the idea of a Rocket Lab Carbon 3rd Stage to send robots to the Moon.

In that case you could use the Carbon from one ship to make Methane for another ship to take off from the Moon.  That presumes the Lunar water is accessible to make the Methane with.

Probably with the advent of robots on the Moon, the total number of humans needed on the Moon would be small.  Mostly for research.

So, I have high hopes for the space industry in the future, if we can keep the white-collar old-world type cannibals from eating the profits.

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I see Saturn V could lift about 150 tons to LEO to stage a Moon mission.  I think that is going to be in reach.  That and more.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_doll
Image Quote:

SLS Block 1 can lift 95 Tons, after all that money.

But it is Apples and Oranges.  I think it is becoming apparent that Stainless Steel was a good choice, as it helps with the Heat Shield, (Probably).

I think S. Steel with the foundation and several other features added to it could make it reusable.  Probably not per hour usable, but in the beginning reasonably reusable.

V3 100+ in 2025/2026, (We hope).

I think it has not even been realized how valuable "Expendable/Not Really" is going to be as well.

???  250+ Tons: "Expendable/Not Really".

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If I am talking nonsense then I would really appreciate being corrected.

Cold Oxygen Boiler<Heat<Water (Or another fluid).

The Cold Oxygen Boiler could be a container with LOX in it where its boiloff is vented to the vacuum of space.

Harder to handle would be a similar method based on Oxygen Ice.

Of course if water is the heat donor, there is a danger of freezing it in a heat exchanger.  So, it may be a touchy matter requiring careful control.

So actually, the process would involve the condensation of water steam carrying heat.

Pause...........

So, here is a basic diagram of the concept:

Just in case words alone do not convey intentions.

While other more direct cooling methods could include fluids with Carbon, Hydrogen, Nitrogen, Argon in them, I would prefer to conserve those in orbit for other purposes.

Oxygen is all over the place in rocks and ices.

Cooking Oxygen out of extraterrestrial rocks, can not only refill a ship that wants to land or proceed to another location but could be of assistance in hot air braking maneuvers for planets with atmospheres.

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I think I will speak positively about the Heat Shield of Starship.  I often speculate too much without adequate knowledge.  I will try to avoid that in this post.

So, I took a look at what the AI on my phone would tell me.

The primary parts of the ship as I see it, are 1) Engine Skirt, 2) Methane Tank, 3) Oxygen Tank, 4) Cargo/Crew Compartment.

The two propellant tanks are to be pressurized during re-entry as they are balloon tanks.  To feed the main engines a pressure of 6 bars is needed.  Due to natural processes, it is unlikely that the pressure will fall below 1 bar or the tanks may collapse.  The natural process is boil off of propellants, apparently.  Sometimes venting is required to keep an undesired excess pressure development in check.

From what I read from the AI assistant, the top working temperature of the Stainless Steel in the ship is about 850 Degrees C.  The Leeward side of the ship will encounter temperatures of about 300 to 500 Degrees C, so technically it is a radiator, at least in the case of the propellant tanks.

So, if indeed the pressure inside of the propellant tanks, is 6 bars, and the g forces on reentry are 2 to 2.5 g.

I think that there would be active convection.  The Ullage Gas being thick, and the G forces being higher than our normal.

Ideally tiles on the windward side repel and absorb heat.  But if tiles go missing and reentry heat sinks though the metal, then that would be a relative hot spot.  Not only would it reradiate heat though the metal, but air convection should also help to cool it.  The tanks may have puddles of residual propellants at that spot, and I suppose that may cool the spot.  Otherwise, air flow and reradiation would help to reduce the overheating.

But if the plasma gets near the metal, corrosion might be a concern.  But SpaceX has an ablative layer that would help keep things under reasonable control.  I would be concerned about the Oxygen tank catching fire on a hot spot, but maybe they have special Oxide coatings on the inside of the Oxygen tank to inhibit that.

I have suggested a felt layer which is water absorbent to be used in the Cargo/Crew Sections.  A hot spot would evaporate/boil water, and the capillary action might be expected to quickly transfer more water to a hot spot.

For the Skirt, I guess, only reradiation exists.  The flow of heat from the windward side of metal to the other side, where it might radiate off to some degree.  I suppose active cooling might be considered, but maybe not needed.

And now I will speculate.  It might be possible to mount an Oxygen Boiler onto the leeward side of the ship, to provide cooling, if you have extra Oxygen such as from the Moon or an Asteroid.

So, if the Cargo/Crew area was boiling off water steam, that would flow upwards where it might be recondensed, as you would vent Oxygen out of the Oxygen boiler to produce cooling, and with a heat exchanger might be able to return the steam for cooling on the inside windward wall.

We love Oxygen for Breathing and Fire, but the Moons Oxygen is inconvenient to use as a coolant but very available.  Perhaps also so from Asteroids or Phobos and Deimos.

So, I might not be too far off on practicality on that.

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Another future feature for Starship would be in orbit repairs of the heat shield.  Since the bulk of tiles are of uniform nature this may be possible.  Certainly, an inspection from a space station or a "Drone" device would be possible.

So, I think that over time Heat Shields will be a technology that will be much better mastered.

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Ammonia.  That seems like a good idea!  Methane has also been considered.

I have to wonder if tile with a metal base and Ceramic Surface may be good.  The coolant then would be emitted from the bottom of the metal tile.   The Metal would hook more securely to the ship than pure ceramics.  If the ceramics chipped off, still the metal may offer enough protection as to not lose the ship.

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