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#1 2022-01-18 12:12:09

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,681

Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Just tired of having to shift from moons to planets to dwarf planets, when discussing techniques that might work in some manner for all of them.  Easier to stay on topic with the word "World".  One must deal with the verbal "Hive Mind(s)".




Done for now.


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#2 2022-01-19 16:33:59

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

So, I am thinking of machines that might be of value to make "World" habitable, and the variations for different worlds.

I do most favor the exploration of the input of a large amount of light through relatively small windows, in the hopes of both fostering Photosynthesis and to power a sort of heat engine.  Also, to process water internally.

I am more in favor of the use of thermal storage in such a device, and also the use of Anti-Solar cells to provide relatively reliable electricity.

But I do not exclude solar cells or heat engines.

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#3 2022-01-20 07:47:50

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,681

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I will not be sad to see any terraforming engine posted about in this topic.  At least I think so.

In general, I am thinking of solar driven methods, but I do not exclude other.  Each world will have different features, but at this time, I do sort of think that Luna, Mars, and Ceres can be of great interest to start with.  Obviously, each has its own advantages.  As for Terraforming, any of them could have a Hydrosphere upgrade.  That may seem funny for the Moon, but, if you did have advancement that allowed economical import of significant water to the dark craters, and also used serious ice armor, indeed you could have lakes and seas on the Moon.  Of course, for Mars and Ceres this will be much easier.

As for atmospheres, Mars of course is the best choice, but given sufficient wealth, and a desire, then something for the Moon may be possible or perhaps even a result of human activities, such as wanting to refine a lot of metals and such from the Moon and having a lot of excess Oxygen produced in the process.

Ceres seems improbable for an atmosphere, but maybe some new tech might someday make it possible.

For all of these worlds, I consider that there should be some habitats built in orbit as is useful and justified by cost.  But also of course much of the "World Engine" stuff, would be on the surface of these worlds.

Yes, I did appropriate World Engine from the Krypton People.  I don't mind having a little fun.  Most terraform concepts talk about gasses and mirrors, maybe nuclear flash bombs.  I am not against those but real machines in concept might be nice.

Drama:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Wo … M%3DVRIBQP

Of course, I don't want Superman to destroy the world engines, as they are to be ours.

So, the ones I am interested in would deal in Photons, and the vibrations of molecules, the generation of power, and perhaps the growing of plants.  As they would be solar for the most part, the sun's output intercepted by mirrors and the light directed through apertures into an enclosure which will have some heat retaining nature, or maybe cold retaining.  This is very much based on thinking by Isaac Arthur, where he both mentions doing such on the Moon.

He does separate habitat methods from heat engine methods.  I intend to try to blend the two.  I think that his materials may be in this video, which might be of interest to you.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Is … &FORM=VIRE

I am going to take a break....

Continuing later.....

Well, sorry, I did not get the correct video for Issac Arthur.  I will see if i can find it later.  To make it short, his notions were to heat up a block of Basalt with thermal insulation under it, and then the run a heat engine off of that.  Also, as I recall it, he had the notion of a light pipe, where you could push light down the piper through a radiation protective wall.  Also, if the window shattered, you could have an automatic door that would close the chamber off from the vacuum of space on the Moon.


-----

Here are some https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=pe … soverlay=1 maps of solar energy, I think that attribution needs to be given to Peter Zeihan for at least some of them.

Of course, this is for the world we call "Earth".

Here are some temperature maps for North America:
https://www.bing.com/search?q=temperatu … 4820F9633D

What I could have in mind would be an enclosure where portholes would allow concentrated light in.  If it was desired to keep it simple, then just a pool of water at the bottom, and Anti-Solar cells on the outside as exposed to air and not part of the window system.

This relatively simple thing could also be tried on other worlds.  Heliostats and perhaps even orbital mirrors to send concentrated light into this device.  For Earth, of course the internal pressure similar to ambient.  For worlds with lower pressure, then indeed various types of pressures. 

But I do also intend to explore the growth of vascular planets as well.  It would seem I have time, and very little interest at this time in anything else for this web site.

So, unless pushed out, I anticipate that I can complete what I have in mind.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-01-20 12:16:34)


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#4 2022-01-20 19:01:08

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,681

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

In the previous post, there are links to maps of where the sun shines, some from the work of Peter Zeihan.

Also maps for North America about where the cold is or can be.

Some viewers may be underwhelmed here, as I am going to bring in a lot of materials from some other topics, and so it will be to a degree redundant.

Anyway, the saying "Cold is Gold" might apply for the machines I wish to see experimented with.  If it is desired to combine power generation with agriculture and water refinement, etc. then for those multiple items, compromises will be required.

Such Machines which might be multi-use might do rather well in a place like North Dakota, per the cold of winter, and perhaps the cool of nighttime, I presume.  So, I think that such devices may have places on Earth.  As experiments, or even as productive devices.  The productive is not yet known.

For Arizona, this would not be a perfect solution, but I believe that in the Mountains, it might be suitable.

For the Northern Great Basin, I do see that it could be somewhat attractive, as the cold of winter and the cold of night are real things.

I have considered these devices for alien worlds, but where you have suitable sunshine and heat sink conditions, maybe it would be useful also on Earth.

A major question is, what is the cost of the materials, vs. the possible benefits?  Well, for Earth, I will go pretty strict on market conditions.  For Alien worlds, what has to offer may be extremely valuable, but might not calculate well into currency as we know it.

The current notion is that if materials were to be imported to Earth from space, they would not include Iron/Steel.  I think that might not be so, eventually.  We may have lots of Energy from and on the Moon, and lots of labor per virtual habitation of the Moon from Earth, and also Tesla Robots.  To bring a shipment of steel down, might involve some type of glider, that having sufficient surface area, just might be able to survive entry to atmosphere.  Or some of the materials of the Moon might make functional heatshields for the purpose.

So, indulge my fantasy, if that is what you need to consider it.

For the devices I am considering, Stainless Steel might be a significant portion.

So, I will leave the Earth version set aside at this point and consider versions for other worlds.

I think I should take a bit of a pause and consider which space version I want to discuss next.............

Actually, I think I will want to save a lot for another day.  Sleep on it.  But I will say, that if "Cold is Gold", there is a whole lot of it out there.  It is a cold universe, except for certain places where greater mass extracts energy from the beginning stored, by various means that we think we know, and also maybe, maybe, maybe, there might be something else.  Or I might at least assert, that I do not know what I do not know.  smile

Goodnight!

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-01-20 20:14:55)


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#5 2022-01-21 07:08:58

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,681

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Here are some diagrams:

This was an initial attempt.  It does not do much for radiation protection.
DLmrha6.png

This one does better for radiation, I think, at this point.
gUwL63H.png

Brown signifies regolith, Blue signifies a water tank.

What I am trying to do is to blend a greenhouse/habitat potential with a Solar Power Tower.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_tower

Initially I considered stone and unpressurized enclosures with discrete "Bottles" for gardens.

But now, I am "Pushing the Envelope", and trying for a pressurized device(s), using construction materials, like metal, and Alon windows, to try to get the best of all things.  That then requires some compromise, and it will be tricky, and require very good craftsmanship.  Sorry, but I am not woke.  In fact, I prefer napping sometimes.

The water tank would be a thermal mass, and aquatic gardens.  But there is no reason that vertical gardens of land plants could not be included above it.

Human habitations could be underground, underwater, and actually in certain portions more protected from radiation.  The water tank possibly could provide personal cleaning to some degree, except for worries about microbial driven illnesses.  That would probably be possible to manage properly.

Obviously, I am only beginning.  My roots for this were translated through the works of Isaac Arthur.

I see this as having potentials from Mercury all the way out to Callisto.

It of course will use mirrors in orbit and Heliostats as well to provide photons to the device, and I have not indicated at all what all the energy options might be.  It will also likely be able to freshen water by evaporation and condensation, which could be quite an asset.

For certain worlds, concerns about impactors will remain.  So, that needs to be solved.  And for Mars of course we have the concerns for dust storms, so some nuclear is likely desired.

The Equator of our Moon may well be one of the most reliable solar energy options.  But then the day night concern for plants will need to be resolved.

Enough.....

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-01-21 11:20:46)


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#6 2022-01-21 11:13:18

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,681

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Working with previous materials especially the just previous post.

Concerns.  To deal with harmful light concentrations optical methods such as diffusion will likely be needed, else plants might get burned.

For the concern of impactors, we can put night covers on the vulnerable parts.  For the Moon, the motion is twice a month,

For Ceres, it is quite often.

Hmmm.... I am encouraged, Ceres does not have a strong axial tilt?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceres_(dw … axial_tilt
Quote:

Rotation and axial tilt
File:Permanent Shadows on Ceres.webm
Permanently shadowed regions capable of accumulating surface ice
The rotation period of Ceres (the Cererian day) is 9 hours and 4 minutes. It has an axial tilt of 4°.[9] This is small enough for Ceres's polar regions to contain permanently shadowed craters that are expected to act as cold traps and accumulate water ice over time, similar to what occurs on the Moon and Mercury. About 0.14% of water molecules released from the surface are expected to end up in the traps, hopping an average of three times before escaping or being trapped.[9]

Dawn, the first spacecraft to orbit Ceres, determined that the north polar axis points at right ascension 19 h 25 m 40.3 s (291.418°), declination +66° 45' 50" (about 1.5 degrees from Delta Draconis), which means an axial tilt of 4°.[54] Over the course of 3 million years, gravitational influence from Jupiter and Saturn has triggered cyclical shifts in Ceres's axial tilt, ranging from 2 to 20 degrees, meaning that seasonal effects have occurred in the past, with the last period of seasonal activity estimated at 14,000 years ago. Those craters that remain in shadow during periods of maximum axial tilt are the most likely to retain their water over the age of the Solar System.[55]

Sub quote:

The rotation period of Ceres (the Cererian day) is 9 hours and 4 minutes.

The favorable aspect of not having a strong axis tilt, is that your Heliostat-Receiver requirements of ability can be reduced.

Now, I think it can be reasonable to bring this illustration into this post as well as the previous one.
gUwL63H.png

I am quite interested in the water tank as per quite a few aspects including radiation.  Spacenut should have some tribute for this as Spacenut did speculate on a habitation with an aquarium above it.

See now, this then perhaps:
1ZL3H4V.png

Habitation area inside of the tank.  Maybe some Portholes to let in light?

Anyway, a possible option(s).

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-01-21 11:32:01)


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#7 2022-01-22 05:00:21

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,681

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

OK, some more illustrations.


I0M0Wa5.png

dEqUMnF.png

NgVscbw.png

As indicated by the pictures, a dimple window could be added, and so separate the lower defined section and upper, less defined section.

I like a dimple window better than a dome, if it holds a deferential air pressure, then compressive strength, is more important than tensile strength.  Of course, various tensile elements such as cables can also be included.

Yellow simply signifies optical devices and thermal devices to be placed above it.  So, the lower section is simply a base for the actual potential power tower.  Any number of devices could be placed above the dimple window.

The outside of the lower section could have somewhat standard solar panels on it. 

If you have a collection of Heliostats, you may aim them or some of them at the solar panels for daytime electricity.

But you may also aim some or all of them at a solar collection device in the upper section.  And that device, in part might shine light down into the dimple window, so you could have a reflective mirror function in the upper section.  Obviously various heat engine methods could be included.

The upper section could also include a robotic multipart impactor protection and anti-solar cell panels section.  So, that would encompass the other devices, when closed like a flower, and may also open up to allow access to the thermal and mirror devices in the upper section.
It would also be thermal radiators/anti-solar panels.  These might close for nighttime if impactors are a concern.

Of course, for Earth and Mars dust may be a concern.  On Earth lightning as well.  Wind also a concern for Earth.  The dimple window will be harder to keep clean, especially on Mars.  But it should be possible to have robots that can clean them.  Also the protective petals might be closed, if a dust storm is active.

I do not preclude the storage of heat in various mediums, possibly including molten salt.

That's a fair amount.  I am feeling pretty good about this.  But it will need even more innovation I expect.

I hope I have stimulated imagination in the minds of possible creator people.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-01-22 05:16:52)


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#8 2022-01-22 06:45:33

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,681

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

So, the questions of agriculture on worlds which do not have much tilt in their Axis. 

I guess that is Mercury, Luna, Ceres, and Callisto for the collection I am thinking of.  Earth and Mars have significant tilts, and also significant atmospheric clouding, dust storms.

Of all the worlds, the Moon is the one that we can have the least time latency.  So, the need for a large population on the Moon does not seem to be there.  Agriculture will likely be limited by the abundance of organic chemicals, and also need.  If you don't have huge populations, then you don't need as much food and other agricultural products.

But for agriculture on the Moon, I guess near the poles, it would be more likely to have plants that need a relatively consistent 24-hour day night situation.  Of course, the other option, say on the equator, would be LED lit farming.

But perhaps some bulk farming could occur in aquatic situations created on the Moon, where most light used would be from the sun.

We have a few aquatic things.  I will consider just one just now.  Duckweed.  It is unknown to me if it can grow in 2 weeks of continuous light.  That is a thing to learn, and maybe as some of these plants are domesticated, that could be modified.

So, it is obvious that you could grow duckweed during the lunar day, provided it was given reasonable conditions to grow in, using sunlight.

But by nightfall, you could harvest the last of it and put a small amount into some tanks illuminated by artificial lights.  Just enough to start over when the next day came.  This sort of trick could be done with other plants and Cyanobacteria's and Algae.

Ceres, of course having short days would not need to do this, and of course it is believed that it will have lots of organic chemicals.

This trick might be important on Mars, particularly due to dust storms.

Mercury and Callisto would be a bit like the Moon as well.

Done.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-01-22 06:56:19)


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#9 2022-01-22 06:58:56

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,681

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I would think that some additional radiation protection and other effects could be produced by ground based magnetic fields, that as a collection could create a global field.

In the case of the Moon, these might be turned off at night, and at the terminator turned up sharply.  For the Moon, the desire might be to get the radiation protection, and yet let the protons from the sun leak in to create water.  However, it might also be desired to try to get a thin atmosphere to accumulate over time, to burn up small impactors.  I believe Terraformer and Calliban have spoken of such.

Another use for this would be to provide something to push and pull against for devices orbiting the Moon.  This of course might be important for other worlds as well.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-01-22 07:01:00)


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#10 2022-01-22 07:02:26

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

As I have said elsewhere, I am interested in a mix of both world based and orbital based habitation methods.


Our friends the Finns, have come up with this stuff for Ceres:
https://trendywnauce.pl/en/life-on-a-me … ing-ceres/

https://www.newsdirectory3.com/finnish- … -thailand/

That looks good to me, but I have to ask the question, "Why not Mars also?".  After all Mars has Phobos and Deimos and also has it's own materials that could be lifted up.  Not as easy as Ceres, but still perhaps an attractive notion.  It likely solves the whole "How much gravity is needed question", or at least provides some treatment potentials.

In trying to provide for "Ground Based" agriculture for these worlds, my hope is that the size of the spin gravity worlds can be reduced, more towards the comfort of residents.  I don't know if bulk agricultural materials could be lifted to Martian orbit at a reasonable cost, but it is worth considering.

And then we have the Earth/Moon.  Why not somewhere out there?

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-01-22 07:09:28)


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#11 2022-01-22 07:53:59

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

So, now here is a partially complete method for one version of an aquatic device.  A sea window(s).

VU8vzlE.png

In this case, the pressurization across the window could be reduced.

However, it would also be nice to have a diving bell version where the pressure is high enough for humans or at least land gardens, and in some versions, you could swim into it or ride your sub into it.

Anyway, even have permanent habitation in it like the previous ones.

So, this is how we could have ice covered sea for much of the area of Mars, and it might not be that unpleasant.

While Atmospheric terraforming may take a long time, Hydrosphere terraforming might be done rather quickly, and that would actually help a lot for the whole terraform process of Atmosphere as well.

I do simplify the problems as when dealing with ice covered bodies of water then you have to control sloshing and washing and such stuff.
But the rewards might be very great.

This might be more comforting, but then remember that it might rest on a created island in the sea's.

dEqUMnF.png

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-01-23 09:30:23)


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#12 2022-01-22 16:52:21

Void
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Posts: 4,681

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

While orbital spin habitats have their attractions, I would like to further explore spin gravity on worlds.

-Ceres
-Phobos
-Deimos
-Mars
-Luna

Each would have its challenges, but if the devices that I have prior speculated on, would be much more satisfying if you did not have to use normal airlocks, and spacesuits, and transfer vehicles to move between a low g greenhouse/powerplant, and a spin gravity device.

As example Ceres, would most likely have orbital mirrors, and some spin gravity habitats in orbits, but I would like to imagine a world which would have an almost endless amount of greenhouse/powerplants, and surface mounted spin gravity habitats.

Those then allowing safer and easier movement of people between the elements.

If this could be managed for Ceres, then perhaps it could be done for other worlds.

But it would be good for me to rest now.

Here is an informative video.  It does not deal with surface mounted spin gravity devices.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ut … &FORM=VIRE

Done.


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#13 2022-01-23 09:11:56

Void
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Posts: 4,681

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

So, it appears that some people have thought that "Centrifuges on Mars" could be a thing.

From that query, let's see what we might get:  "Centrifuges on Mars"

Not a direct hit, but interesting:
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne … crogravity.

This is interesting.  Maybe a combination of things to keep fit?
https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 … D100357191

That phrase did not fetch what I want, perhaps this will: "Quora, could a centrifuge be used to increase effective gravity in a Mars colony?"

OK, that worked well enough:  https://www.quora.com/Could-a-centrifug … ars-colony
Picture Quote:
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-5 … 502250a-lq

That is a nice illustration and will help people to visualize it.

I have a lot of concerns about how to implement such a thing, both technology and cost being issues.  But I guess needs are the big thing.  If Mars is worth living on, and processing, and you need it then you likely would do it, or wheels in orbit, and probably space medicine.

So, I will set centrifuges aside for Mars for now, but it seems quite sure that they would be needed for Ceres, and of course Phobos and Deimos.

I have sort of looked at Vesta today as well.  I thought it was a dry ball of rock, with all water boiled off, but it looks like it likely has hydrated minerals and perhaps ice deep down.  Also, it is thought that Carbonaceous materials have been sprinkled on it.  So, being smaller than Ceres, it would be yet another version of world to work with.

I am sort of thinking Junior Dyson Sphere today as well.  I have wondered if an entire web of solar collection devices could be attached directly to a world like Vesta, with the intention to collect the maximum amount of solar energy.

Other days, other peoples, I guess.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-01-23 09:28:09)


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#14 2022-01-23 09:31:22

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,681

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Now, back to thawing out seas on Mars:
VU8vzlE.png

Keep in mind that there would be a solar power tower over this "Window".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_tower

The water under the ice will be used as a heat sink, and so the body of water could be expandable.  I have covered things like this before.

Heliostats on the surface of the ice will shade the ice and keep it cooler in that way, while sending concentrated light to the receiver on the tower.

It is very possible that a boiling process would be used to generate electricity, and of course the "Waste Heat" goes into the body of water.

The hope is to send some of the light into the window of the lake, to promote photosynthesis, while consuming the U.V. and infrared.
In reality the efficiency of light projection into the window(s) should be expected to be low, but so what.  If you get 5% of all intercepted light into that window, that spot in the sea would likely have ~Earth normal or greater illumination.

Ice armor would also be used to protect the top of the ice.  Radiator tiles with a vapor barrier under them:
feXgqBY.png

If they are in the shade of the heliostats, then likely they would not have solar panels or anti-solar panels on them.

So, now we have some automated solar power stations making electricity.  We can use some to pump Mars atmosphere under the ice.
We also can crack H20 to get Hydrogen to pump under the ice, and so then chemosynthesis may be possible where microbes generate Methane.  That can be Rocket Fuel, or just fuel, or can be leaked to the atmosphere for terraforming purposes.

The Excess Oxygen would have its uses also obviously.

Done for now.

Oops!

The water will likely be rather cold, but still suitable to life.

Special methods could create places where warm water would be hosted.  But I need breakfast.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-01-23 09:44:24)


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#15 2022-01-23 11:07:20

Void
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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

This again:
Ice armor would also be used to protect the top of the ice.  Radiator tiles with a vapor barrier under them:
feXgqBY.png

I am hoping that urea brick process could be used for them, where fibers of some type can be included into them to increase strength.

But now, water farming.

uGurC6A.png

Keeping in mind that there will be a solar power above this, that does many energy functions, and hopefully can send some portion of visible light down through the window.

Green represents a bag of water with Hydrilla in it.  I simply chose that for an example.  If you wanted to make an air-filled box with transparency, then you could farm garden plants.

So, in the lakes would be two distinct organic processes.  By pumping Hydrogen and Martian Air into the lake waters, to feed Methanogens, a process with little Oxygen involved.  In the Green Bag, Oxidative Photosynthesis.

https://www.eattheweeds.com/hydrilla/#: … 20green%3F

If I recall the nature of the plant, it grows very fast and can tolerate low light and temperature conditions.

In the conditions of the bag, at night the temperature should not drop below the freezing point of water as the water around it should be that warm.  Also, the bag's water would have some thermal inertia as well, so it should not cool of that much overnight, usually.

Come the day, then, the light shines in, and warms things up.

I have not provided for fertilizer methods, but something would be done.

As this is "Batch" farming, then the bag or box of growing stuff can be towed underwater to a diving bell where near shirt sleeve conditions could be kept for humans.  Then it would be harvested and replanted.

This would be an option, not a requirement.

I have begun to rethink the idea of vast seas of water covered by ice.  Instead, I am thinking of having a multitude of lakes, separated from each other by ice dams.  That way if you slab of ice runs downhill, everything will not rush to the bottom.

Many of you must be used to my stuff by now, but I think it is getting better with time.

Something about the window.  You might recall that I often specify an ice window.  I am moving away from that here, as I think it would not be hard to make a window/bubble with small pressurization, above Martian ambient, and to then expect it to work as desired.  Of course, real ground conditions will require discovery of what hold up, so to speak.

But unlike the air pressurized enclosures for humans that I also depicted as under a solar power tower, these should be relatively cheep to make, and yet might serve a very good purpose.

Done.

Into the Vastness?

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=in … &FORM=VIRE

Last edited by Void (2022-01-26 10:02:25)


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#16 2022-01-23 19:47:03

Void
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Posts: 4,681

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Please take this post as humorous, or not.  I think that in some strange way there could be truth embedded.  Every now and then I think I see a glimmer but cannot quite catch it.

Anyway, could we suppose for giggles, that the presumed outer edge, if there is such a thing, of the universe is a collection of spaghetti monsters that are sucking photons from sources?  So, then the universe would suck, but not the big bang.

Anyway, a photon will not experience time, if I have any notion of what is real, and that could be quite warped by alcohol in this case.  And so I shame myself.  But really, we typically think that the photons force themselves, but maybe also they are drawn to some other sort of vacuum?  Well, maybe I should end it here.

But it is weird, as a photon projected and perhaps sucked into the universe, might experience no time, while we do experience time.

Ahhh....  Give me a beating if needed I guess smile

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#17 2022-01-24 10:58:38

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,681

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I like it here, in my own little world.  Visitors of course can come and are quite welcome.

Today, I woke up and thought, "Well I don't think I have any other things to post.  Now, I have trouble thinking which things to post.

I guess this is more fun than being responsible. smile

I think that most of my next post materials will be in association with this long-viewed item about ice slabs.
https://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/scien … sts%20said.

https://www.space.com/30502-mars-giant- … y-mro.html
Picture Quote:
https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/y8wdk … 0.jpg.webp

I also am quite interested in what should be in the Valles Marinaris, but we do not know it's true nature yet.
But it is the same size as the ~Netherlands.

I am quite amused and suspicious of them.  They are called "The Netherlands" but the name of the people is "Dutch", or "The Dutch"????
They are seeming to be quite clever and odd.  I like that.

Anyway, going to else.... something.   Elon Musk wants to do a Stretch Starship.  Dr. Robert Zubrin wants a Mini-Starship.

I am wondering about a Shrink Starship.

If you are in the Valles Marinaris, you might want to hop into and out of it.
If you are in a mid-latitude ice lab, you might want to hop around.

I don't want to pay for a heat shield to do this.  And I am not sure that the Shrinky Starship needs all the engines, especially, if it is uncrewed.  (Occasionally I do woke, but now that they have made themselves like a splinter under my fingernail, my sympathy is evaporating fast).

Such a "Shrinky Starship", then however has to double down on landing gear.  Starship will be better about that per being able to hover in a true manner, I have read.  Falcon 9, 1st stage has to do a "Hover-Slam" as I have also read.

So, then my "Dream" is for a ship that can move stuff around on Mars, doing the Mostest with the Leastest, within reasonable and responsible considerations.

So, it could not go orbital, or if it did, it could not re-enter.  The highest temperatures it could endure per atmospheric heating would be that of the structure of Stainless Steel.

To get it from Earth to Mars, it should not in that voyage carry any cargo.  It also might need some assistance with a onetime heat shield scheme, or do much more with its engines, which would require much more propellant for survival.

Well, that is what I want for Christmas.  It is not necessarily a Hippopotamus.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-01-24 11:19:38)


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#18 2022-01-24 12:09:12

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,681

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

In these days, and for a while, I have had a tendency to despise a reality spoken to existence by words.  I think it likely to be the fruit of the hive mind people who seek to exploit us as their servants, for not a gain to anyone in the passage of time.

I was going to begin with a "Paint" picture, but now, however, I would like to verbalize.  I not as much eyes as fingers, and yet not that entirely.  To see.

A person has said that there are raw materials and resources.  Resources are the results of actions on raw materials.  Who actions this, more likely is animated?  Even plants have animation.  But, Animals typically have more of it.

So, ice slabs 130 feet thick??  Sorry everybody, but I have the measures that I do, and I consider that I am superior in that way in the same way that people who speak more than one language are more capable.

The slabs are thought to be not only ice, but to have included some regolith materials.  I do not know how that came to existence, but for now, at least "Buy it as spoken true".  I have no other plausible resort.

Pause....(Drama??? smile ) Stupid more likely smile

Well, it is the next day, I guess I will say "Done", and do a new post.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-01-25 08:10:03)


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#19 2022-01-25 08:10:47

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,681

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I have been stalling about holes in the ground an ice tunnels.  Can any of these become a resource?

Well, I worked in a mining facility for about 1/4 of my 40-hour working life.  Not very much in the direct mine, but the processing facility.  The term "Make-Up water" was used.  No particular reason to describe that particular operation.  But for Mars, curiously, water it self must be mined, it would seem.  Or that is a method that could be employed.  Wiki had nothing sensible to say, except to say things about water itself.
So, here is this.

https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/m … %20control.

In a certain way it is adorable to me.  smile

I believe, high odds that SpaceX and others will enhance access to LEO.  This then make access to Mars and of course other places, much more plausible.

Water for Mars seems to be in bulk in many places on and near the surface.  But ice is a big or even only part of it.

So, to start with it might be true that other than the chances of a useful aquifer, ice is the deal available.

So, I think that it can be mined either vertically or horizontally.  Not so different from normal.  Vertical is "Strip Minning", horizontal is shaft mining.  Generally shaft mining goes more vertical, but on Mars we might have a typical depth of ice of ~~~130 feet.  I will convert that for all of you who drank the Kool-Aid.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=convert+f … f00d17e95c
Quote:

39.624 Meters

 

I may start a topic about dinosaurs, actually birds, but not here.  It is possible that I am for the birds.

Many seem to have thought about mining the ice as a solid.  Some have thought of doing it as a liquid.  I think of sublimation.

My two typical notions are horizontally with a heat source to tunnel in the ice, using a laser system.  To create a vertical hole, then just have a solar powered tarp.  That is, increase the heat over an area where you want to extract the water.  A simple solar film might be able to do it.  The just suck up the vapor output, and so compress it into either liquid water in a truck or freeze it back into a block of ice in a "Truck".

But this is like Doughnuts.  What about the holes?  smile smile smile  I used to make Doughnuts when I was a teen.  By manipulaing sections of the ice slabs, we create "Voids".  Can we do anything useful with the Voids?

Doughnut holes?

And maybe the horizontal ice tunnels?

Later.....

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-01-25 08:40:15)


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#20 2022-01-25 20:12:20

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,681

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Anything embedded in a hole in ice will be a problem if you try to maintain comfortable heat.

Not impossible but let's say for a 13-story deep hole that was dug by sublimation under a tarp, for make-up water, it has several advantages to create a pressurized environment.  If a cube, the 5 of the sides could be solid.  You might put regolith against any of these, and you might also do insulation.  You might have a solar power tower above it, but too much heat, and you would have melt trouble.

As for horizontal tubes, they might serve as roads, maybe with trolly cars?

I guess it needs more consideration.

Done.


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#21 2022-01-25 20:15:21

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,681

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

As per the "Shrinky Starship" of post #17, I have recalled that Dr. Robert Zubrin indicated that it might be possible to suction Martain atmosphere into an engine process, and so to gain an advantage.  Not the ingested air would serve a chemical reaction purpose, but rather the mass might help the propulsion process.

I would like a hopper ship as similar to #17 post, and what is here.

Done.


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#22 2022-01-25 20:49:32

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,681

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I want to have another different look at Nuclear Fission for Mars.  But first here is something from the Angry Astronaut.  His views are interesting, but I do not 100% endorse everything, for instance rare Earth materials are not rare, it is just that getting them to purity causes a lot of pollution as I understand it.  But the case for mining in space is going to be real, I feel.

Here is his presentation:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Th … D638471C48

-------
I have done some thinking about nuclear waste.  Maybe I need some head slaps about what I will say, if so, then slap away.
I think Mars may provide a good opportunity in this regard that Earth does not.  I will begin with this:
https://www.uri.edu/news/2021/02/uri-re … e-process/
I think that it is a very important read.
Quote:

The team discovered that the creation of these chemicals is amplified significantly by minerals in marine sediment. In contrast to the conventional view that life in sediment is fueled by products of photosynthesis, an ecosystem fueled by irradiation of water begins just meters below the seafloor in much of the open ocean. This radiation-fueled world is one of Earth’s volumetrically largest ecosystems.

Now, I am guessing that perhaps the Methane emissions for Mars may be involved with this.  I am not saying or not saying microbes.  I don't know, of course.

So, if you have a planet with very deep icy permafrost, can you make ice covered lakes, and place radioactive materials into the sediments, and expect to foster a biosphere?   There is a high probability in my opinion that the waste materials can be kept there very long term, provided you do not so much terraform Mars that the flows of water and air move the sediments about.

But I believe that things like Plutonium are chemically toxic, so we don't want that, I expect.

So, for radioactive wastes, perhaps we care if they are soluble or not, to what degree.  The purpose of establishing such biospheres driven by radioactive decay on Mars would be to generate terraforming gasses, such as methane.  So, let's just suppose that we melt a lake either with nuclear and/or solar, and so place the waste materials which have been selectively chosen as tolerable to the process, then we may obtain an output of terraforming gasses from nuclear waste.

Would it even be possible to generate some materials on purpose?  Aluminum 26 for instance?  It is not impossible that there are some that life is rather compatible with.  Some notions of Panspermia suggest that mudballs existed in the early solar system heated by the decay of Aluminum 26.  But I don't know compatibility with microbes for that.

Early on they thought it had to be created in Supernova, but now it is thought that the interactions with GCR and magnetic fields, and planetary disk materials could create it.

I am certainly not an expert.

Done.

In order to "Bake this Cake better", it would perhaps make sense to provide Carbon and Nitrogen to the Microbes that the rate they could consume.  So, just dissolve Martian atmosphere into the waters, and squirt it into the growth medium.

Output, might well be Methane, maybe other gasses???

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-01-25 21:18:44)


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#23 2022-01-26 06:31:29

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,681

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

There is a need to understand Mars better if we are going to terraform it and also exist in its environment.  So, I feel justified to add this post here.

http://www.sci-news.com/space/map-elect … 0Astronomy.
Video Quote:
https://youtu.be/KkKak9bNGjU

And then interactions with Fossil Crustal Magnetic fields on Mars:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=fo … soverlay=1

Maps of the remaining "Fossil" magnetic fields:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Ma … HoverTitle

------

I have long wondered about electrical discharges on Mars, in the subsurface.  And I have also wondered if some method to heat the subsurface in places might exist from the effects of the solar wind.  So, I will go at it once more.

If the Solar Wind, the atmosphere, and Mars itself were "Steady State", then it might be hard to justify what I am suspecting.

But the Solar Wind is not that steady, I believe, and the Atmosphere of Mars is not steady either, and Mars rotates, and so is not steady in that sense, although of course the rate of rotation is fairly steady over long periods of time.

Starting with the "Fossil" magnetic fields, due to all of this, I have to suppose that they get fluctuating squeeze forces applied to them.  Certainly, they rotate with the planet, so as to be positioned in different ways over a day.

So, of course I am talking about the behaviors of transformers of Electromagnetic usage.   Electrical makes Magnetic, and Magnetic can induce Electrical.

So of course, I am supposing that there will be ground currents.

And it seems likely that sunlight and wind may create electrical activity.  Dust Storms are thought to be partially electrical, and so would likely be magnetic as well.

I suppose if Mars had/has a global aquifer, then there could be discharges globally involving it.  But then Permafrost will also be an item.  If it has cracks with conductive materials such as salt water, then there could be periodic discharges. 

Anyway, I have felt for some time that it might be possible for life supporting conditions to occur in places on Mars if this is true.

For Earth life a temperature above -20 Degrees C, seems to allow it, if other conditions are fulfilled.

And then as seen in the just previous post, radioactive decay can produce gasses that microbes could use to support their metabolisms.

And I have also mentioned in an else time and place that there are organisms that can get what they need to live from the air.  They can get Hydrogen and CO, and in this they also can get water by consuming those.

Even without electrical discharge heating, it is possible that in certain locations on Mars, just under the surface of a rock, living conditions might occur.  Let's just say a very thin plate of slate.  In the nighttime, it getting very cold, perhaps ice would form under it.  In the day, if just a good amount of salts were present, and some sunshine on a dark slate, perhaps the underside might have some salty melt water.

Others have suggested Quarts, Mica.  And I recall an article which suggested that under a layer of clear CO2 ice which would have a layer of water ice under it, perhaps enough solar energy could occur in the spring to allow the formation of liquid water in the ice layer.  That then would eventually rupture, of course.

And then there has been said that in the shadows of some Bolders, it might be possible to have small amounts of liquid water periodically on a seasonal basis.

----

So, what about GCR on Mars?  Is it always death?  Or could it give life?

I think I viewed an article that suggested that GCR could promote life in the subsurface of Mars but cannot find it.  A thing that is likely is that it would alter the chemistry in the sub-surface, perhaps offering something to life.

I think on Earth we think that Methane comes from the decay of life, or Volcanism.  But can it also come from something that Eats Hydrogen and breaths CO2?

I guess that is about it.

Done.

Well, I ran into this and thought I could include it.  Whatever the limits of life are here on Earth, may be similar on Mars.
https://phys.org/news/2022-01-extremely … floor.html

And we can be sure that if somehow Mars is sterile, then eventually our microbes will get deep into the sub-surface of Mars, and may alter its behaviors.  And that is a thing to consider, if trying to terraform.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-01-26 07:40:52)


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#24 2022-01-26 09:53:52

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,681

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I'm working on this a bit more now:

EFBiaJK.png

I am feeling rather good about it.  I think that if the light is filtered by various means to reduce U.V. glass and Alon may not be needed, just some kind of a more durable plastic film.

You can see that there is an ice window at the bottom.  That could be there during the nights, or dust storms, or when you want to change out the plastic film.

Freeze thaw actions may be tough on the raft, so some considerable work is needed to make that endure time.

When the ice window is there, there may be no need for more pressure than is available in the Martian environment.  But even if it melts from light shining in, it should be easy to pump cold water into that area to keep the vapor pressure down.  So, the plastic film will normally not need to hold much differential pressure at all.

I have not shown it but for fresh water the interface to ice should be 32 Degrees F, and the possible temperature at the bottom of the water could be 39 Degrees F.  I will convert for you.

0-3.88888889 Celsius

And that would be without a submerged enclosure.  So, the bottom water possible just a bit warmer.

And then put an enclosure as like this and warm what is in there up.

But now, water farming.

uGurC6A.png

So, I think we have hopes of creating lots of lighted pressurized space, perhaps not too expensive, I hope.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-01-26 10:03:40)


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#25 2022-01-27 07:49:25

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,681

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I think I will attempt to address a verity of things to do with this material, and going into Optics, Heliostats, Heat Engines & Storage, and Solar and anti-solar cells.

------
Here seems to be an interesting question that seems to give a little info, and also to bring up more questions:
Quora, "Why do mirrors reflect visible light but not Ultraviolet light?
https://www.quora.com/Why-do-mirrors-re … r-infrared
------

I am not at all expert in these things so any help would be welcome.

------
Heliostat:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliostat
Picture Quote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliostat … ar_two.jpg
Quote from picture:

The Solar Two solar-thermal power project near Daggett, California. Every mirror in the field of heliostats reflects sunlight continuously onto the receiver on the tower.

Comment from me:  "Where they seem to have only one target for all the heliostats, I would put them into "Sub-Fields of Heliostats", where a Sub-Field could target a light pipe.  But they all could target the central power tower.  So, it could be various reconfigurations according to intent.  If you are at a high latitude and the days are long of summer, you might do more targeting of the main tower.
But if it is winter, maybe you would not even use the light pipes, if you had enough stored food.  Other options would be to shine fields of them onto solar panels, onto anti-solar Paneles, or just something to generate hot water, not electricity.

If I could understand this better, perhaps I would be more certain.  But we have seen these before:
https://phys.org/news/2016-08-high-temp … solar.html
Picture Quote: https://scx1.b-cdn.net/csz/news/800a/20 … htempe.jpg
Quote:

New high-temperature device captures a broader solar wavelength spectrum, improves solar cell efficiency

So, here is both solar cells and a potential hot water generator.

We could go really nuts trying to squeeze as much out of the sunshine as possible, but then again, we could simply have more heliostats.
Going nuts, you would try to get the heat, and also the unwanted spectrum to electricity, and then finally the "Wanted for agriculture" spectrum into the light pipes or to a greenhouse.  But again, for this I guess the decisions would be driven by needs and relative costs.

Also there could be high temperature heat storage.  For instance a "Hot-Block" with anti-solar cells on it.

------

Remember, I am not anti-nuclear.  So. that also.

------

In this system, the ice is part of a thermal storage system also.  It will include phase changes of melting and freezing.  The ice armor will
radiate heat away, and the heliostats will divert sunlight away from the ice armor, and towards the "Targets".

It is to be said that there will be a need for robots to clean these items as necessary.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-01-27 08:09:51)


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