Large ship analog

SpaceNut · 2022-02-12 09:33:07

One thing is to remember as we talk about the analog site is that its no Mars society run version, its not an ISS and its not going to be a biosphere redux either that its going to be more like what we are proposing.

The image in post 4 depicts a wide ring floor when spinning and that will be the earth floor width. To do this rotate the ring 90' counter clockwise and change the vertical accordingly with the center being adjusted as well.

I like the idea of a track ring to give simulated exercise and we can even do buoyancy tanks to put people through weightlessness conditions as well.

I like the real mars atmospheric airlocks as well so that we as humans get accustomed to a mars hazard to work and go into sort of a mars in a jar. We can simulate the lighting levels as well as the cold that we would see with these as well.

We can also simulate the communications time delay so as to get use to how to priorities data types for severity of crew loss versus day to day data transmissions. I believe that radio as well as laser communications equipment suffers for the same delay time so there is no need to go with anything different for its type.

With the design we can test out both styles of vehicles one that would seem geared for passenger comfort and one that is more sparsely with doing with less comfort in completely isolated portions of the ring being divided up into 2 sections. This means competing command structures and adjusted crew complement to accommodate the passenger populations in each.

Thanks Robert for the motor moved elevator design thoughts as that nails down the connecting tunnel design concepts for a rings actual hardware and repair possibilities that we would work though.

tahanson43206 wrote:

I am replying here to avoid replacing your ID with mine in the topic. Your suggestion of saving money on the facility will certainly appeal to the funders. I guess the question to be asked is what we want to achieve with the facility.
If we want to select personnel capable of putting up with the severe stress of six to eight months of confinement, and that is ** all ** we are trying to do, then saving money on construction would certainly seem reasonable.
On the other hand, if we want to prove out technology to be used on Large Ship before it is actually lifted to space, so we can be sure it will work in space, then (I presume) we'd want to make the Analog facility out of the same materials that would be flown.
I was thinking of enlisting Airstream to make the cabins, with the exception that no wood would be used, where aluminum can perform the needed function. They already know how to make aluminum hulls, and those are water tight, so being air tight is probably not too much of a stretch.

Not worried about my posts being missed and yes choice selections as to funding are something that we will consider as we switch from concept to build.

tahanson43206 · 2022-02-12 10:34:48

For SpaceNut .... I decided to quote this post because I ** really ** like the idea of designing the facility to be constantly improved as the crews endure the experience. I am less sure of the need to impose the Mars lighting. This is a simulation of the Large Ship, and there will be plenty of sunlight available in space. Still, I admire your thinking ahead like that, and the ability to control lighting levels from Earth to Mars to dark might turn out to be an attractive feature of a robust design.

SpaceNut wrote:

A glass facility does nothing to simulate a mars living condition as we need mars lighting if we are to use natural. We also need journey natural as well since we are trying to use a greenhouse along the journey. We also need the light to come in just like it would from a large ship ring design not from above.
We do not need to run this anything like a mars society analog facility as we have other goals which are giving them something to do while inside the ship, doing the work required with in its confined for the journey, living the conditions that would be in a large ship comes to mind.
We are looking at the real life journey and landed conditions time frames knowing that earth is there in the simulated mission.
We would slowly introduce the recycling conditions, waste recovery and more as we do the time line work.
The bulding will find things that people would use to hold onto such as the pipe for the window pane pressure that was repeatedly held onto which was not designed for that use on the ISS.

In one of your recent posts, you raised the issue of ownership of the facility.

I agree that neither the Mars Society nor the National Space Society have or will ever have the resources to build such a facility.

However, a large University, with plenty of local (civic) funding support could very well afford to build such a facility as a permanent part of the campus. There would be strong incentive for Universities located in Texas to take a forward leaning posture.

The first major Texas University that puts in a bid for funding from the Legislature (and private funders) is likely to secure the best response.

I would estimate $2,000,000 as a baseline estimate for studies to be done by professional organizations, such as architects and engineers.

The ideas of RobertDyck are (of course) the starting point, but once the funders commit to pursuing the idea, the realities of the real-Universe will impose themselves.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2022-02-12 12:30:52

tahanson43206 wrote:

I propose the Large Ship Analog Facility should adopt NASA as a model.
This means:
1) Use real EVA suits
2) Use real cabins
3) Use real atmosphere management hardware and chemistry (and biology if feasible)
4) Use real water management hardware and chemistry (and biology if feasible)
5) Use real food management hardware and chemistry, with external re-supply allowed and monitored closely for historical data
6) Use real waste management hardware and chemistry (and biology if feasible)
7) Create authentic living experiences for all personnel to insure the ground experience is as close to space experience as possible

To do this, the Mars simulation room on the ship would have to be a real vacuum chamber. EVA suits used to enter that chamber would have to be real MCP spacesuits. There are people in NASA who have an emotional hold on gas bag suits. Abandoning gas bag and adopting MCP will get some push back, particularly from those who's job has been developing gas bag suits. They could work on the new suits, but for decades now they've resisted MCP as if their jobs depend on it.

This creates a few problems. If the analog is just to test whether people can withstand being sealed in tight quarters for 6 months, then we don't need to pressurize the building. However, if we want the Mars simulation room to have the same pressure as the surface of Mars, that creates a few problems. Using an airlock to decompress from habitat pressure to suit pressure is practical if the difference is not too great. If the analog is the same pressure as Earth, then zero-prebreathe is no longer possible. One solution NASA has used since Space Shuttle is to increase spacesuit pressure. The pressure they use for EMU suits (white suits for Shuttle and ISS) is 4.3psi. That is too high for an MCP suit, and it's still too high for zero-prebreathe. Shuttle and ISS use 1 full atmosphere pressure, so astronauts require 17 hours of oxygen prebreathe before decompressing to EMU suit pressure. That radically changes fundamental design features of the Large Ship. Do you seriously want the analog to use half Earth atmospheric pressure?

And doing this with real EVA suits required developing a real MCP suit. It can be done, but do you want to put this on the critical path of the analog?

tahanson43206 wrote:

Let's try to get away from the "pretend" model as much as possible.
For the participants, life confined in a tiny space with 1059 other human beings is going to be a massive test of personal resilience, emotional stability and civic participation not typical in the United States.
I am recommending that the facility be constructed to meet the emotional, intellectual and physical needs of the participants as the first priority.
My guess is that as the development team approaches the problem and examines the initial configuration of physical space more closely, needs will be recognized for adjustment.

Again, do we really want the analog to operate at half atmospheric pressure. If the goal is to test confined space, that can be done at normal Earth ambient pressure. The building can just be a building, sealed with plastic sheet vapour barrier. If you want to actually reduce pressure, then the whole building must be a pressure vessel.

tahanson43206 wrote:

1) Width 19 meters
2) Circumference 238 meters

The real Large Ship will be a ring with corridors. You can walk completely around the circumference, although there will be places you have to walk through a room to do it. And some places will have 2 parallel corridors, other places just one. To simulate this with an analog, I suggest constructing the building with the habitat level split in two, half length. One half on the lower floor, the rest on the second floor, with stairways only at the ends. Walking the full length will get you back to your own cabin, and distance will be the same. The real ship will have a 2-story gym, so the main gym can be placed at one end of the analog. This means stairs in the gym can be stairs connecting the two levels.

tahanson43206 wrote:

5) Atmosphere: 3-5-8 rule

I'm not sure what you mean by this. I suggested EVA suits use 3.0 psi pure oxygen. Apollo suits used 3.7 psi pure oxygen, and the Command Module used 5.0 psi pure oxygen. The original design for the Apollo, before the Apollo 1 fire, was to use 3.0 psi pure oxygen in the CM and 3.3 psi pure oxygen in the suits. I recommend 3.0 psi pure oxygen for suits, and 2.7 psi partial pressure oxygen for Mars habitats and the Large Ship. Notice the Large Ship would not use pure oxygen, it would also use 3.5 psi partial pressure nitrogen, and 1.14 psi partial pressure argon. Earth's atmosphere has argon, but this is more argon than Earth. When you add CO2 and water vapour, the Large Ship would have ½ atmosphere pressure.

So: 2.7 O2 / 3.5 N2 / 1.14 Ar
How is that 3-5-8?

RobertDyck · 2022-02-12 12:42:53

Post #4 shows spokes the same width as the ring. I never intended that. This shows ring thickness as 2 decks. The dark inner layer to the ring is the upper deck, with observation rooms and greenhouses. But after looking at requirements, the greenhouses will not have to be full width. And my humble 3D modelling skills showed the upper deck as solid glass, not windows, so refraction shows a bit of the spoke.

SpaceNut · 2022-02-12 17:06:07

I was thinking long scope for this project and of a starship as the center piece to making mars possible.

Musk along the process of development has disposed of section of a fabricated starship to which I am wondering if these could be made to make the earth ship mockup more realistic. With the left over materials being used to make other parts of the structure if he would donate them to our project.

With starship we are going to need to come up with technology for mars to get water and co2 for making fuel.
Mars Water regolith soils 1 foot depth only
Practical Water Extraction Methods for Starship Missions
ISRU propellant production - energy requirement for the BFR?
Mars Insitu Fuels made from atmosphere, regolith, water
In-Situ Propellant Production, design a opensource demonstrator

of course as we go we may be able to run things with the other fuels Internal combustion engines for Mars

Currently we are in robotic scouting mode and while we want a starship we are still limiting the starting point as in a Mars Direct to a human level scouting mission that even with Oldfart1939's topic being the next step up on that site investigation. We would practice moving equipment out of conex boxes to make the first mission burm for a seudo reactor and wiring connection as practice for the real event.

Mars Direct; Mars Semidirect; Design Reference Mission. Need Updating?
Mars Direct Rethought - Fixing the potholes in Zubrin's plan
Minimum crew size for early Mars landings
Crewman size and mass affects mission to mars
Air. Shelter. Water. Food.
Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members discussed here in Companion for Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members discusion area
Mars Mission Comparisons - updated with kbd512's proposal

The next level was only a little bit large with it being termed settlement using insitu materials, with each naturally getting larger and more complex with regards to mission building goals. With at some point we are growing into the My Hacienda and the Musk city on Mars aka starbase.

Construction technology for Mars?
Settlement design
My Hacienda On Mars
Star City - (Starbase City)

Of course we will setup a greenhouse simulation as well for both the journey and for the surface of mars making use of that area where its going to be on the journey and when we are on the ground as well.

Agriculture Study Mars Pure CO2 Greenhouse
Crops
Greenhouse Architecture
Indoor farming update
Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil
What Biome's are needed on Mars

The actual shape will be distorted for building it on earth but will allow for scaling of operations for each of the mission goals and profiles.
Human Business and flight plan for mars
Its dimensions will be similar only in that its a ring with spokes going to the center where the starship would set. If its only going to be 2 floors then that's all of the area that we get. while in journey mode we would use the starship as if its a zero gravity so bed rest position while onboard with limited moving.

Large scale colonization ship
A More Practical Interplanetary Colonization Ship
Large Ship Competing Designs
Big Wheel Gyroscope Space Transport

We might even want to test out Slow Glass Individualized Service on Mars or Anywhere

What we are really doing Building a Mars research laboratory

other tools for exploring mars
Scouting Mars by Helicopter

tahanson43206 · 2022-02-13 07:10:48

For SpaceNut re #30

Thanks for an exhausting work session, to collect all those links!

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 18#p191018

I am saving the link to the Blender drawing by RobertDyck, for reference:
SearchTerm:Blender drawing of Large Ship by RobertDyck
SearchTerm:Large Ship Blender drawing

I have NO idea if this image is at all realistic. RobertDyck is just learning Blender, so the proportions may be way off.

The width is ** supposed ** to be 19 meters, and the circumference on the floor surface is supposed to be 238 meters.

The proportions look wrong to me, but they may be right. Hopefully RobertDyck will clarify the dimensions at some point.

The work I did was done using Blender units with as much precision as I could muster. Examples are available at numerous points in the Large Ship topic.

Blender units are routinely accepted by 3D Printer Slicer programs in whatever real-Universe measurement units the designer chooses.

Edit at 9 AM local time ....

For SpaceNut re #30 ... some of the ideas in your post led to this idea for the Large Ship Analog facility....

The basic structure needs to be a rectangular solid, 19 meters wide, 238 meters long, and (on the order of) 3 meters tall (per floor)

However, a second structure could be built to allow engineering students NOT enrolled in the simulation, to design components for the habitat to be flown in space. **That** structure could be a cylindrical structure with the dimensions of the Large Ship, but sitting flat on the ground.

The structure could even be housed under a dome, so that inclement weather is not a cause of work delay.

All components of the Large Ship can be designed to be manufactured on Earth and flown to LEO inside fairings, just as most hardware is flown to space now.

The cabins are small enough to be flown intact, for example.

All components can be tested in an accurate frame built to exactly match the specifications for Large Ship.

I just took a look at the web site for the University of Houston. That institution, and the entire Texas University system of which it is a part, is/are large enough to provide the personnel and administration for a project of this size.

NASA is close by, and it is woven into the fabric of the community. I would expect a close coordination between the Large Ship activity and NASA.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2022-02-13 11:46:47

This is primarily for RobertDyck, but feedback from anyone is welcome and appreciated ...

In thinking ahead for how a Large Ship Analog facility might operate, I thought to ask FluxBB if there were any posts containing:
"dehydrated" and "food" and "nutrition"

Assuming FluxBB (MySQL) did not throw any curves (which I have seen it do), there were many pages with this combination. Many of those pages were created by RobertDyck.

I didn't try reading more than a few because the information I am after is scattered over many pages which do not deal directly with the issue at hand...

For RobertDyck: Is it practical to build a food diet for 1060 people entirely around packages of dehydrated food?

I am not discounting fresh vegetables from a greenhouse! I am explicitly asking about meeting nutrition requirements from dehydrated food, because any fresh food that is grown on Large Ship (or in the Analog greenhouse) would be a welcome addition to the basic menu, but NOT critical to health.

If the answer is YES, then the Analog can be designed from the outset to employ a diet of dehydrated food (pretty much like the ISS offerings), with occasional shipment (by simulated supply ships) of frozen foods, and whatever can be grown on the rooftop greenhouse.

***
I recommend that ** all ** personnel be responsible for a plot of greenhouse space. The greenhouse space can be increased to facilitate this feature of the design. This has almost nothing to do with nutrition. It has ** everything ** to do with the psychological health of 1000 college students who we ** might ** be able to enlist to endure the extreme privation your vision would impose upon them.

***
There will be NO "fine dining" in the on-Earth Analog .... I recommend all personnel (students and cadre) prepare nutritious meals at the cabin level, with rotation of responsibility so that everyone participates in the important maintenance functions of the complex.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2022-02-13 12:02:48

This is for SpaceNut .... Please think about this scenario ...

Let us take Elon's vision as a goal ... 1,000,000 people on Mars in (let's say) 10 years.

If we send a part of that population every 2 years, the population in a fleet would be 200,000 people.

If we use RobertDyck's ship size as a criterion, then 200 ships would be needed in the fleet.

That assumes the ships return and reload in two years. I am doubtful that is possible.

Taking a safer position, 400 ships would be needed.

If a policy is established of using the Large Ship Analog as a selection mechanism, then 100,000 people would need to graduate each year.

That would imply 100 Large Ship Analogs. There are enough nations (with enough resources) to be able to operate a facility like this, and the large nations could run more than one simultaneously.

The graduates of the program would have proven the ability to endure the privations and mental and emotional stress of RobertDyck's proposed design.

Furthermore, great numbers of people would have de-selected themselves after starting the program, after discovering they are not equipped mentally and emotionally to endure the experience.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2022-02-13 12:51:50

tahanson43206:

The proportions of the image are correct. I entered the precise dimensions of the ship when I created the image. The lower deck is 2.43 metres high (8 feet), the upper deck is 12 feet high. However, I since found the greenhouse does not have to be full width. The inner layer of the ring is shown dark; that would not be full width for the entire ring. Furthermore, that upper deck is shown as solid glass, not glass windows over a hollow interior space. The solid glass is shown to refract the image of one of the spokes. That's obviously wrong, but the dimensions are correct.

::Edit:: The ring in the Blender image is actually 19.12 metres wide. That's 19 metres living space plus 12cm for the water wall.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2022-02-13 13:26:14)

tahanson43206 · 2022-02-13 12:57:34

For RobertDyck re #34

Thanks for confirming the dimensions!

Please reconsider the greenhouse dimensions.... the personnel need and will appreciate being given responsibility for a plot of greenhouse space.

I am recommending allocation of greenhouse space for the students who (I devoutly hope) will enlist to "experience" the trial-by-endurance of the Analog facility.

***
GW Johnson may not be able to attend tonight's Zoom.

I had asked him to provide an engineer's perspective on the strength of those piddly little pylons you've shown. Those are most definitely NOT strong enough to withstand a 1 G acceleration out of low Earth orbit. They will snap off like a soda straw (or three actually) when the main engines ignite.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2022-02-13 13:09:51

tahanson43206:

The analog will *NOT* be 236.87 metres long. That's the entire circumference of the ring. But on the real ship you can walk the entire circumference and get back to your own cabin. To ensure you can do that with the analog, the building will be 2 stories, half that length. And a stairway between floors only at the ends. That way you can walk from your cabin to one end, take the stairs to the other floor, walk to the opposite end, take the stairs back to your own floor, then walk back to your cabin. Total length will be the same as the real ship (plus stairs).

So this means roughly 118.435 metres. But the gym on the main ship will be 2 decks, so we could put that at one end. Then adjust length because we aren't splitting the gym in 2, the gym is already 2 decks.

Dining: 4,000 sq.ft (400 seats @ 10 sq.ft)
Fine Dining: 300 sq.ft (20 seats @ 15 sq.ft)
Kitchen: 2,100 sq.ft (5 sq.ft per dining room seat)
Gym: 4,000 sq.ft
Laundry: 403 sq.ft
Infirmary: 260 sq.ft
Bridge: 200 sq.ft

Note: dining is split into 3 dining rooms: main dining @ 300 seats, and 2 medium dining rooms @ 50 seats each.

So the gym is 4,000 square feet, convert to metric 371.6122 m². Divide by 19 metres wide: 19.5585 metres long. Round to 19.5 metres. The ship will be 236.87 metres circumference, so that subtract the gym will be 217.37 metres. Divide by 2: 108.685 metres. Then add the whole gym back: 128.185 metres. So this means the building will be 128.185 metres long (420 feet, 6 inches), measuring inside the walls, plus the stairway on the opposite end from the gym.

::Edit:: Ack! Made mistake! Didn't divide gym area by 2 for two stories/decks/levels. Should we give the gym an open ceiling to the second level? Like an atrium? So make the gym 2/3 length, so floor area of the 2nd floor is half that of the 1st. The rest of the 2nd floor will be open to below. So make the gym 13 metres long x full width of 19 metres.

Recalculating: 236.87m - 13m = 223.87m. Half that is 111.935m. Then add 13m for the gym, total 124.935m. Converting to feet: 409 feet, 10.7 inches. Could round to 410 feet.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2022-02-13 14:32:59)

SpaceNut · 2022-02-13 13:22:44

th. I am thinking that when we are closing in on the larger number above 200 onboard the ring section that we could open a university level class use of the structure to make it more like the passengers that do nothing to aid the ships trip or being on the surface of mars.

typical gym

First the size of a starship can only take 100 passengers on each ship and requires support cargo ships and refueling to make even 1 trip to mars. That is one of the reasons for a large ship creation so as to reduce starship count.

https://www.spacex.com/human-spaceflight/mars/

https://www.space.com/spacex-starship-super-heavy.html

The analog sight can not have curved floors to walk on or a ceiling that matches and it does not rotate. The only curve that is present from the large ship drawing is the wall that is vertical which gives us a floor dimension and a relative ceiling height.

The floor could be made to curve but then what would be the length of that small section of the curve of the big ship simulation? How many of these would we need since the side walls are straight flat surfaces in the ring.

So far the starship is of this design which has the exit hatch a long distance off the ground for the mission 1 or 2 to practice the off load of equipment in conex boxes to the ground and such for the oldfart1939 style planning.
We might even practice conex box habitat buried by regolith as first tier expansion of habitat area.

next phase is to allow for the first spoke to create a silo style building that is for first settlement that would be to cover the incremental step of personnel that would begun the process after exploration has happened in the first set of missions. This is the reduced radiation regolith piled up phase which is another couple of cycles.

Here is 1 of many topics where we talked about mitigation of Space Radiation + counter measures

Then comes the main building of the large ship simulation with the multiple decks and dual purpose testing of philosophy of implementation.

This is where we need to focus on the structural shape that makes the most sense for testing some of the items of the large ships design.

No ordinary stairs from one deck to the next as they need to be layered up on a curve in both directions with hand rails. A vertical ladder would be more plausible up and down separately with several of them along each floor to allow for transitioning between them.

RobertDyck · 2022-02-13 13:23:56

The ship will *NOT* experience 1G during acceleration. In post #535 I calculated acceleration for aerocapture. Expect acceleration for TMI to be the similar. It worked out to 2.91361 m/s² over 14½ minutes. That's 0.2971 G (29.71% G).

Furthermore, the Blender image has a lot of detail not shown. I have said many times there will be diagonal support struts from the ring to the hub, one at each spoke.

SpaceNut · 2022-02-13 13:35:53

That is good for in space but this is an earth bound simulations analog of which we are trying to lay out multiple progressions of going to mars.

Now from the topic of large ship we will try to create the water walls and more as part of the analog site design.

nutritional food values
https://ezprepping.com/freeze-dried-vs- … omparison/

https://www.primalsurvivor.net/freeze-d … ehydrated/

Freeze Dried vs Dehydrated Foods: Complete Comparison

Differences Freeze Drying Dehydrating
Retail Food Cost More Expensive Less Expensive
Machine Cost $2,595 – $3,595 $40 – $300
Nutritional Value Retains 97% Retains 60%
Shelf-life 15 – 25 Years 5 – 10 Years (longer in some cases)

Most of the trip can get away with fresh and frozen foods out to 12 weeks easily but its after that where food resource would start to change as we go through what was taken onboard before starting out towards mars.

RobertDyck · 2022-02-13 13:55:18

What does "multiple progressions" mean?

The analog will be a building constructed on Earth. It won't go anywhere. The spokes are just a hollow metal pipe to hold the ship together, with a single elevator shaft down the centre of the pipe. There will be cables and pipes along the inside of the spoke, out of the way of the elevator. For the analog site, this is represented by a corridor from the main building to a separate building to represent the zero-G hub. I described a gymnasium roughly the size of an elementary school gym to simulate the hub. So 3 enclosed corridors connecting the main building to the hub-gym. The zero-G cargo hold is aft of the zero-G hub, and the cargo hold stores food for the journey. Only food for today's meals are brought from cargo hold to kitchens. To simulate that, I suggested a warehouse adjacent to the hub-gym. So individuals will have to use a roller cart or dolly to transport food from the warehouse to kitchens, and they'll have to go through the hub-gym. Entrance to the real ship will be one end of the zero-G hub, right at the axis of rotation. So entrance the analog building will be one end of the hub-gym, the opposite end from the warehouse.

SpaceNut · 2022-02-13 14:08:09

A lesson in gradual mission size and duration to grow from small numbers towards the eventual full manning of a large ships compliment of personnel and crew counts. Its going to increase with each cycle change and size as well as for how much of the site gets to be used for each mission level. See post 30 starting with mission size ( "Currently we are in robotic scouting mod") for what I am talking about with progression as we do not want a 1 and done use but give data points for how we are going instead. This allows for the testing of each levels mission goals and a practice sight for these.

RobertDyck · 2022-02-13 14:46:07

I made a correction in post #36. On the real ship, the gym will not have any windows, so the analog won't either. A running track is an idea. You can walk through the circumference of the ship, but in places it will have 2 parallel corridors, other places one, and in some places you have to walk through a room. The gym could have a running track. Lower level or upper? The YMCA downtown in my city has an upper level running track with the space in the centre of the track open to below. Other gyms have one level, with running track around the perimeter, exercise machines in the centre. We could do either. Perhaps with the track on the lower level, and some exercise machines in the centre, other machines on the upper level. The lower level will have precisely Mars gravity, the upper level will have slightly less gravity.

SpaceNut · 2022-02-13 19:36:10

Things from

RobertDyck wrote:

kitchen, laundry, gym, medical, bridge, laptop/tablet/smart-phones; the ship would have Wifi and a server equipped with digital version of books, digital music, digital movies. Every cabin would have a large flat-screen TV.
The washroom for each cabin would have some life support equipment, regenerable CO2 sorbent, and separate regenerable activated charcoal filter for smells and water "cyclone separator" to remove detergents, soaps ect...
On ISS solid waste is collected with an air stream, what is basically a trash compactor compresses the waste into plastic bags with no air. Russia developed a vacuum desiccator toilet to recover moisture from feces, should we do that on the cruise ship.
life support with oxygen generator, water processor, Sabatier reactor, electrolysis, room for a lounge/bar/club, which leads to freezers and refrigeration.

Drawings to make use of supplied above....

Laundry and showers all with the means to remove soaps from the Waste stream recovery from scrubbers and urine and solids are a must to push for the simulation for sure.

While I would like to give the practice of using nuclear for powering all activity that is on site its not likely so the best that we can do is give real life numbers to ensure the size would be correct at each missions size and duration.

We will also practice cargo moving from the starship to the ring as well to get realistic hours and personnel count to achieve its staging for use.

The main mission for Oldfart1939 are aligned with geologists, chemists, mineralogists which would call into question preparations in future missions.

Of course we can do drills of debri or larger avoidance, solar flare to get to shadow rooms ect...

tahanson43206 · 2022-02-14 05:15:09

For all working on the Analog ... thank for all your contributions so far ...

The on-Earth training/selection facility can evolve over time, to become closer and closer to the version that will actually fly. it could start out as the "Mars Dorm", and students could be offered free tuition and room and board to induce them to put up with the experience of being packed into a small space for a semester.

In the initial version, the students could be given the normal freedoms of a campus, using the Mars Dorm only for the uses that would be typical for a dorm. In return, they would be asked to document everything they did, so that their needs for the future could be recognized and accounted for.

Meanwhile, their physical activities (inputs and outputs) would be accounted for with precision.

1) Electricity usage
2) Water usage
3) Waste production (waste collected/measured before processing)
4) Supplies needed for the Dorm (eg, fresh bedding each week)
5) Other items I haven't thought of

Meanwhile, planning for delivery of the components of the "real" orbital article could be under way...

Consider keeping the Falcon 9 upper stage as part of the Habitat Ring ...

This would solve the problem of acceleration in the boost phase to Escape Velocity, as explained by GW Johnson in last night's Zoom. A pusher Tug will give the vessel the mighty heave out of LEO and just below Escape velocity. The Falcon Nine Merlin engines in the Habitat ring would give the vessel the small residual momentum to achieve Escape Velocity, and thus the Hohmann orbit to reach Mars. Those same engines would provide the force needed to "dock" in orbit at Mars.

The fairings of the Falcon 9 do NOT need to be cylindrical. They can be square, with a conical nose. The square shape would actually be sections of the hull, curved slightly (perhaps) or flat.

The habitat sections to be lifted would be 19 meters long, and as wide and tall as makes sense.

The Habitat Ring would therefore end up as a set of Falcon 9 upper stages bolted together to make a perfectly cymmetrical ring.

The spokes and central shaft could be made out of cylindrical Falcon 9 upper stages, and the engines saved as spares and bolted to the central shaft, again in perfect symmetry.

238 meters is given (by RobertDyck) as the circumference of the Habitat Ring floor. If we take 9 meters as the working number for each Falcon 9 upper stage, then the total number of stages would be on the order of 28.

More launches are needed to lift the spokes and the central shaft, so I'm going to ballpark the launches at 50.

This means that it should be possible to estimate with some precision the total cost of launching of the components of Large Ship Version 1.0.

The estimates for the components of the flight version should feed back into design and construction of the Analog Mars Dorms, so that over time, as new Mars Dorms are constructed on campuses around the World, they will look more and more like the flight article.

As a reminder, if Elon persists with his Million Person concept, 1000 flights of Large Ship would be needed.

If flights only occur every two Earth years, and if the goal is to transfer 1,000,000 people in ten years, then something on the order of 200 Large Ships are needed, and ** that ** assumes they are able to get back to Earth inside the launch window. That means no dawdling at Mars.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2022-02-14 06:43:54

We seem to have trouble focusing. I had trouble sleeping tonight, so running on low sleep. I'll try to be diplomatic. This ship will not be assembled by shipping up parts from Earth. It's too big. Brian keeps trying to change everything, but it won't. Part of the whole project is manufacture in space with in-situ materials. Complicated machinery will be shipped up from Earth, but not the hull. It won't be assembled from Falcon 9 components. I had considered using Starship to launch hub components, but the ring definitely not. You may have misspoke, intending to use Starship components. But the ring hull is not composed of cylindrical components. And they definitely won't be docked with rubber O-ring seals like ISS. That station leaks like a sieve.

I haven't gone over GW's document yet about rapid transits. When I tried to look into rapid transits, I didn't find a combination that would allow 2 trips per conjunction. If GW's does that, it's a gigantic improvement in ship operation.

SpaceNut mentioned "multiple progressions". I still believe the best way is a Mars Direct scouting mission. Then a pair of Mars Direct habitats send a construction crew of 12 to build a small base the size of Mars Homestead. That will give them a lot more space! Then that crew builds a larger base with habitat and life support for 100. Then the first Starship shows up. They double the size of the base before the next Starship. Eventually they build habitat and life support for 1,000 before the Large Ship shows up. All this with in-situ materials from Mars.

Another point. This thread is supposed to be about the analog. I already mentioned a cost effective analog. Build a virtual 3D model that people can walk through. Do it online and multi-user. Allow 1,000 people to interact as virtual passengers. It's a lot less expensive to build a virtual model.

tahanson43206 · 2022-02-14 07:30:52

For SpaceNut re post #45 of RobertDyck

RobertDyck provided a possible title for a separate topic: Large Ship Virtual 3D Model

This would be a topic separate from Large Ship, and separate from the physical facility that is the subject of this topic.

RobertDyck could assume responsibility for enlisting the talented and dedicated personnel to create the 3D model.

The NewMars forum has thousands of ID's available for the volunteers that RobertDyck enlists to create the 3D Model.

This would be an ambitious project, but I think it would be well worth while.

Of course, it has NOTHING to do with actually proving that 1060 human beings can tolerate being packed into a volume of 19 meters by 238 meters by 3 meters for six to eight months, let alone two (Earth) years if the Large Ship cannot dock at Mars for some reason.

The physical Analog may start out as nothing more than a peculiar dormitory for 1000 students and 60 graduate student cadre, but over time, if it turns out that real human beings can tolerate such conditions for a semester, then the facility can be adjusted to bring it closer and closer to matching the flight version.

Ultimately, the funders will decide what gets built.

That should be obvious, but it bears repeating.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2022-02-14 10:14:23

If a Large Ship Analog is built in Houston, Texas, the sponsor will be the National Space Society.

While Mars Society has a chapter, that chapter is brand new, and not in a position to take on a multi-million (USD) project such as this.

However, it turns out that Winnipeg, Canada, has not one, but SIX ??? Universities ....
Per Google:

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It is entirely possible that the Nation of Canada has enough resources to support a full scale, authentic Large Ship Analog, able to churn out 1000 students per year as qualified to endure a Large Ship flight. If the Musk target of 1,000,000 people on Mars is to be achieved, candidates need to be selected and tested at the rate of 2,000 per year at each facility. I am estimating a 50% drop out rate. Trying to live in the conditions prescribed by RobertDyck is well beyond the capability of most people, just as trying to become a US Navy Seal is beyond the capability of most Americans.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-02-14 20:57:47

Th. the fairing on a cargo ship like the Falcon is used to protect the cargo from the pressures of cutting through the atmosphere and a Falcon is just a merr 5 Meters in size.

I agree that we need

physical activities (inputs and outputs) would be accounted for with precision.
1) Electricity usage
2) Water usage
3) Waste production (waste collected/measured before processing)
4) Supplies needed for the Dorm (eg, fresh bedding each week)
5) Other items I haven't thought of

All supplies are not fresh and those that participate must do there own laundry as this is not a luxury cruise.

A 3d image scape like you are walking through a house that is for sale is just a sale presentation gimmick to get investors and funding for the project. Sure its got to be targeted but its not the main work of this topic which is how to build to the big ship target.

The building for reals science made up of random college is as well not what we are trying to do when you have a bar and food with dorms....any university student selection would be from courses that apply to our simulation that is more like a final project senior thesis.
It would be a while before we get to that point where we need the numbers.

We have talked about the Mars Society University and that would seem to be a better fit than others as we would be intending to create cadets for such a crew to use the real deal.

The means to move the large ship from orbit towards mars will come but we need to practice crew transport and so much more for a large ship use.

Yes RobertDyck we would only use a part of the starship simulator for gradual steps like the mars direct or semi direct with increasing levels of flight time simulations and activity to match.

I agree that we are pushing the limits of those that would want to

actually proving that 1060 human beings can tolerate being packed into a volume of 19 meters by 238 meters by 3 meters for six to eight months, let alone two (Earth) years if the Large Ship cannot dock at Mars for some reason.

and that is why we must try to simulate something more than the Mars society versions not they are getting anything wrong but this is different.

Whether the analog site is built in Texas or other places its about other things which we may not be able to control from the sales pitch but it should be some what mars-ish in look.

I am still trying to simulate the round floor shape into what we would build from the large ship as a flat straight floor is not being used in the real thing. So we are only going to be able to use partial arcs in the floor with the round shape being used as the outer walls. This means we are going to alter the radius or curvature to make it feel like we are moving when we are not.

temperature control system example

RobertDyck · 2022-02-14 21:36:58

A house presentation is not a realistic 3D representation. It's panoramic shots from certain spots, with the house dressed up to look ideal from the vantage point of the camera. What I'm suggesting is a 3D model that you walk within.

How many people have the resources to build a hotel for 1,060 people? True it will be a lot smaller than a 5-star hotel, but still! And not normal facilities, we're already talking of building real life support so it can be tested. Not just plumbing, but real air and water recycling, hydroponics for a salad bar, and all the advanced life support for the Large Ship. That's nice, but ambitious.

Here's a question: can any of you find someone with ability and facilities to do genetic modification of a food crop? To start the development of the chloroplast oxygen generator that is so crucial for life support.

tahanson43206 · 2022-02-15 07:54:36

For SpaceNut re #48

I am still trying to simulate the round floor shape into what we would build from the large ship as a flat straight floor is not being used in the real thing. So we are only going to be able to use partial arcs in the floor with the round shape being used as the outer walls. This means we are going to alter the radius or curvature to make it feel like we are moving when we are not.

To help you understand why a flat straight floor is correct, I've created floor plans that are published in the Large Ship topic. They are drawn to scale, and they show what a passenger on the ship would experience.

The floor is straight because that is how it would appear to a person in that situation. The floor will NOT look curved.

It only looks curved to someone outside the ship.

The flat straight floor is an accurate representation of the Large Ship.

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 78#p172878
The post above shows the floor plan with cabins defined by color codes.
The drawing shows four, five or six people inside the cabins, and everyone else distributed in the floor space between cabins.
RobertDyck's vision is to package all those people in that small floor plan for six to eight months at a minimum, and up to two years in case of a wave-off.

These posts are quite old., Nothing at all has changed. Nothing!

Just take a moment to imagine yourself as one of those people. Imagine being inside a cabin.

Imagine walking around the floor between cabins. Imagine saying hello to 1060 other folks, because in six months you ** will ** know everyone.

(th)

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