My Hacienda On Mars

SpaceNut · 2020-02-08 14:47:57

I have included the Basalt roving miner unit to plots 0003 and to plot 0008 for initial building of temporary homes for plots until business owners are stood up. These addition plot location are to be recommended once we have a population higher than 100 to 500 range of business ownership.
The concept starts on this topic page 6 of Colonizing / terraforming small asteroids

SpaceNut · 2020-02-09 09:59:06

Seems we need to add in battery manufacturing from insitu resources after the initial base colony construction builds the plots 0039 outward as a means to not be importing them from earth. These topics are some of the general battery types. Some of these will upfront equipment to make the building possible but this can have other uses to make building them possible.

Nickel Iron battery units
Lithium used for batteries
Sodium-Iron battery?
Flow Battery

Calliban · 2020-02-09 10:42:13

Plot 0037.

I like the idea of a Mars distillery making Martian Whisky. This would be a way of converting any excess grain into a product that can be sent back to Earth. Mars has one advantage over most locations where whisky is made on Earth - a low temperature environment, with large temperature range. On Earth, temperature and pressure fluctuations drive whisky into and out of the pores of the oak barrel, ageing the whisky with tannins, which are slowly oxidised and transformed into complex flavours. On Earth, relatively warm temperatures result in alcohol evaporation from the barrels - the so called angel's share. This limits how long whisky can be aged, because between 1-5% of the alcohol evaporates each year. So after 21 years, you have lost a lot of original product. Mars whisky can be allowed to age more slowly and develop more complex flavours.

A 200litre bourbon barrel weighs 110lb (50kg); will contain about 4 times its own weight in whisky and can be reused multiple times for malt (though legally, only once for Bourbon).
https://www.lexingtoncontainercompany.c … rrels.html

Ethanol freezes at -114C, so cask strength whisky should remain liquid at Martian temperatures. The large day-night temperature fluctuations should be useful in helping it age. The vapour pressure of ethanol is less than Mars atmospheric pressure at -60C and about 1.3KPa at 1C. So a Martian warehouse can be pressurised to a few KPa of pure oxygen, which should be easy from a structural engineering viewpoint.

The value of malt whisky is a function of its age. A bottle of 21 year old scotch (0.7l) will typically sell for £100-300 ($130-400), depending upon what it is (say $500/litre or kg). So 21 year old Martian Whisky is something we might profitably export to Earth, so long as transport costs back to Earth aren't higher than a few hundred dollars per kg. The oak casks would need to be imported. But for each kg of oak, we can age at least 4kg of whisky. And even spent casks have their uses.

Growing the barely might be a sticking point. Agriculture will be expensive on Mars and there is no way it could profitably be imported from Earth. It takes about 1kg of grain to produce 1litre of cask strength whisky.

The exhausted grain can be fed to cattle. The waste water contains minerals that make it good for recycling to crops. The 'feints' are the lightest 10% fraction in the distilling process and include quite a lot of methanol. This could be used as fuel. The distilling process takes place at temperatures of 60-90C. So electricity, concentrated solar or waste heat can be used for distillation. The fermenting of the grains takes place at about 37C from memory. So waste heat from the distillery is valuable for heating.

One of the biggest Scotch distilleries is Macallan in Scotland, producing 11million litres of alcohol each year - about 20million litres of cask strength whisky. This would require about 20,000 tonnes of malt grain. In the southern UK, we have managed about 9tonnes per hectare yield (0.9kg/m2/year). So to grow 20,000 tonnes would require a grain area of 22km2 - probably somewhat more on Mars. If we can sell each litre at $100 profit, then 20million litres of Martian 21 year old would fetch $2billion.

Last edited by Calliban (2020-02-09 11:33:57)

tahanson43206 · 2020-02-09 11:22:41

For Calliban re #153

Thank you for your robust addition to My Hacienca topic!

SpaceNut set up a plot for booze ... 0037 Booze

If you are interested it adding to the virtual community, the first step is to add the string Plot0037 to your post #153.

That post will then become the anchor for additions you can make to the plot over time.

The community concept has been slow getting off the ground, but I am grateful for the support of SpaceNut during these early times.

My hope is that as more forum members build up their vision of an enterprise on Mars, others will see opportunities to provide goods or services to the plot holders who describe their needs.

There are surely many examples, but almost everyone will want an outside supplier of many commodities and services.

A given plot can be expected to offer more than one good or service, although a concentration such as the one you proposed might take all the time and energy of the residents to carry out.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2020-02-09 15:28:13

Also use the booze topic to build thoughts on crop type, acreage, fertilzation ect....post 144 of this topic has this booze topic link as well of which I just added the post by Calliban to the end of it. Hopefully we can speak more there of variety which can be made for filtering and processing.

Not of the ice road trucker mobile array dropping with battery storage combined to extend exploration and transport from home base and for the exploratory mission plot.

this page has as small couple of posts that can add to the existing plot.

So we will need to pair battery and solar insitu for the early deployment for this mobility exploratory method to expand beyound a full charge radius.

Plot 0008 for exploration that is mobile and plot 0040 for the drop solar power extension system. The solar will convert to insitu made panels with plot 0039 folding out the insitu battery creation. Paired together we achieve great distances from limited resources that get fulll charged between expedition.

tahanson43206 · 2020-02-15 19:43:46

For SpaceNut re My Hacienda PlotMaster

I have added these specializations following conclusion of recent discussions relating to them:

0041 Manufacture of atmosphere for habitats
0042 Manufacture of atmosphere for greenhouses
0043 Manufacture of atmosphere for specialized applications such as mobile transporters

(th)

SpaceNut · 2020-02-15 19:47:33

Like minds are thinking for sure on the topics that has gas manufacturing with in them
Optimal air pressures.. - Which is best? More O2 or more pressure?
Plot 0041 Manufacture of atmosphere for habitats

tahanson43206 wrote:

For kbd512 re #52
Thanks for your note on my attempt to collect data on the gas mix question which is (sort of) the theme of this topic.
I am hoping the forum can (collectively) assemble a concise guideline for persons who will be planning their habitats at Mars. Those people are (probably) alive today, and probably not yet out of college. While the members of this forum may not be going with them, we ** can ** do our best to assemble concise, accurate guidelines for various activities they will be undertaking.
Assuming (for example) the decision is made to work entirely with Mars native materials to create comfortable habitats, it seems reasonable (at this point of my understanding) to compress Mars' atmosphere, extract the components and put together a gas mixture with 20-21% Oxygen and the balance Nitrogen and Argon as those molecules present themselves.

This is the one for greenhouse Agriculture Study Mars Pure CO2 Greenhouse Plot 0042 Manufacture of atmosphere for greenhouses

tahanson43206 · 2020-02-16 08:42:06

For SpaceNut re topic ....

SearchTerm:MessageProtocol

My Hacienda is still in its early stages, and there is plenty of time to plan ahead for the possibility it will attract 2750 individual plot holders, all of whom will be building up the text content of their (virtual) plots to contain a full and detailed description of the specialization they will pursue, and the needs they have which can be filled by other plot holders who specialize in the skills and equipment needed to supply them.

Today, I'd like to introduce for your consideration a concept for Message Protocol for My Hacienda plot holders.

Part of the charm (not sure of the right word) of this forum is the low volume of traffic, and the (generally) high quality of posts.

While My Hacienda is intended to attract equally high performing members, a possible downside of the arrival of people in such numbers is that the quiet country village culture of this forum would be lost.

There is a way to prevent that, but it will require development of a culture of consideration for others that is rare on Earth in 2020, and may will have always been rare on Earth. I **know** from experience that such cultures ** do ** exist, so there is hope, but it is most certainly **not** the default.

As a new person arrives to take "ownership" of a plot, it will be necessary for them to create a post into which they will insert the plot identification string.

In all cases, that string is "Plotnnnn"

Once inserted, the plot owner can quickly return to that plot record by entering a search for the plot identifier string, and for the author identifier.

My hope is that, from then on, the plot owner will perform updates on that plot to add data about their specialization, about the details of the plot infrastructure, and listing of needs to be met by the community market place.

Everyone will be listing as a need (for example):
1) Atmosphere for habitat
2) Atmosphere for greenhouse use
3) Energy of various kinds
4) Materials of various kinds
5) Services of many kinds (eg, digging holes for habitat modules)
6) Clean fresh water

Some will choose not to try to grow food for the plot inhabitants but will instead procure food from those in the community who specialize in food.

A way is needed for plot holders to notify others of updates they have made to their plots. Ordinarily when we (forum members) edit our pre-existing posts, the FluxBB package takes no notice of the changes. What I am imagining is a utility script that would be run automatically each Earth day, to discover posts that were created or modified during the previous 24 Earth hours. The list would be published as a single consolidated post showing updated posts and the member ID's associated with them, supplemented by the direct access string generated by FluxBB for every post.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-02-16 08:44:01)

SpaceNut · 2020-02-16 11:26:22

0043 Manufacture of atmosphere for specialized applications such as mobile transporters

currently has the pipelines as a means for getting gasses and fluids to other plots but the over the road was also talked on in a balloon topic as a means.

Or just create a message topic for plot alteration. My Hacienda 1-3 as we have three different topics of which 2 are analog and not on mars as plot updator message holders.

Edit: I forgot the topics all have a Subscribe to this topic email function which notifies you of any posts made to the topic.

end edit

I have been placing plot identifiers into the many topics so as to help be able to find exisitng information that once an owner steps up we can identify that person in the registry as they become the business director in the topics and try to steer conversation towards completion.

We were heading toward plot self sufficiency but has that changed in the above post. As its only a business for those that are having a short fall in production that allows for others to buy from another.

tahanson43206 · 2020-02-16 11:42:49

For SpaceNut re topic in general ...

I am definitely encouraged by your support of this initiative!

As you point out in #159, we are still waiting for individuals to step up to the challenge of claiming a plot in the first place, and then filling it up with detailed specifications of the layout, equipment, capabilities, products to be offered for sale or trade, and services to be offered for sale or trade.

I am envisioning this community as a full fledged market economy, able to supply ALL of the material needs of the residents, while at the same time developing the capability to trade with other communities on Mars and eventually with Earth or the Moon, or other away-from-Earth sites.

We will be able to fine tune the structure when we acquire our first plot holder.

We have offered specific plot numbers to specific forum members, but to my knowledge, no one has take the required minimal step to "register" a plot.

As a reminder for someone on the verge of taking the plunge:

1) Search for PlotMaster
2) Search for your name ... if present, open a message and store the string "Plotnnnn" in that message.
3) If your name is NOT present, chose one of the plots whose purpose best matches your interests, and create a post for that plot.
4) If your interest is not present, choose an open plot number, create a post, and report the specialization you intend to pursue.

SpaceNut or I will update the PlotMaster to reflect your interest and registration of your chosen plot number.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2020-02-16 12:39:12

Should I create a paper on all posts to finish up the foot hold mission, the exploratory mobile concepts ect... to see where we stand for the first plots completion. We are talking about alot of work performed by a small crew size of 4 - 12 at most on the first mars launch to return cycle. Covering plots 0003, 0008, 0012, 0013

Selection of 5 site locations on the compass headings from a central location for landing at reasonable distances of each other. Each point of the compass and base in the center recieves a 40 kw lander of solar plus batteries and a single 10 kw reactor to start the base construction. With the four compass point being the inital exploratory mission outposts to be created for future landings.

Is there something else which you can think of that we have not put forth for its completion?

1 rockets and strutural modules landers plus cargo equipment to setup growth for mars insitu use with repect to payload capacity
2 mission type construction planning scheduel and timeline and use of insitu materials targetting low hanging resources
3 greenhouse setup and food growing using equipment to make insitu atmospher
4 insitu propellant plant setup and running with ability to use it for backup or for other uses
5 insitu breathable atmosphere moved from greenhouse for other uses and ability to get such aspect running at outpost as soon as possible
6 insitu power sources for permanent and temporary outpost station construction after initial base
7 insitu created waste recovery processing for use to make fertilizer and to recover minerals
8 radiation detection and protection covering are done with all activity of build and stay for mars initally water and regolith barriers
9 utilization of insitu materials processing at permanent and temporary outpost stations to begin creating building what is needed not brought
10 insitu material manufacturing for more greenhouse and other materials needed to make more and for construction
11 insitu trail blazing for roads to resources constructed to get to outpost stations
12 mission science of geology with exploration utilizing outpost station resources
13 early construction of extra spaces to work as well as to live in within using prefabricated and insitu including under ground with connectivity to other outpost stations
14 construction of insitu manufacturing pressure vessels, pipeline to connect outposts and bring storables to for remote use
15 setting up of remote power stations with exploration for outpost stations
16 outpost construction of insitu after remote power is installed for processing and building of structures

tahanson43206 · 2020-02-17 07:54:09

For SpaceNut re #161

First, thank you for your continuing support of this initiative. It has a chance to set roots and pop out into sunlight (of actual participants) thanks to your encouragement.

However, it appears there may be a need for a separate (similar) concept for you to develop.

Should I create a paper on all posts to finish up the foot hold mission, the exploratory mobile concepts ect... to see where we stand for the first plots completion. We are talking about alot of work performed by a small crew size of 4 - 12 at most on the first mars launch to return cycle. Covering plots 0003, 0008, 0012, 0013

There is need for focus on the early stages of Mars exploration leading to settlement, separately from the MyHacienda period.

MyHacienda is set AFTER initial settlement is completed, and before Sagon City is a thriving metropolis.

I'm wondering if there might be a way to develop a similar concept that would exist in a near-term future.

Edit#1: Lost in the mists of time (an Earth year ago) Louis decided on the arbitrary location of Sagan City (2018) and I have been imagining MyHacienda built at that location. The center of the MyHacienda territory would be set on Louis' marker, and it would extend 50 kilometers radius from there.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-02-17 07:56:51)

SpaceNut · 2020-02-17 16:37:56

With a BFR starship the settlement starts with a bang with nothing to leverage against failure is evident with nothing planned by the rockets vendor. It is also something we do not have and its going to be a decade before we do.

The louis (sagan city) plan only works with leverage of success with each visit. Making use of what is left behind from the other to make the next step more possible.

Current capablility is launchers that could be for cargo and men with a little bit of effort.
The ability to build in orbit is possible with these parts with little alteration.

Lacking is payload mass to mars surface and all of the things that even a BFR starship is not providing.

Things on the short list to deliver
power source solar nuclear and batteries
compressors for co2, sabetier reactor to make fuel, moxie for oxygen
mining equipment for ice and water to get from regolith which would include heat source to extract for greenhouse use and fuel creation
water electrolysis for fuel creation system and for excess oxygen use with hydrogen to go to the fuel sabetier
3d habitat builder to use insitu material
general transportation for excursion
general construction mining and building equipment
greenhouse area for food growth
basalt mining and processing equipment

Things on the short list to have for insitu
make fuel and oxidizer with compressors, sabetier reactor, moxie, gathering water
basalt mining and processing equipment for greenhouse area for food growth, habitat creation, fuel or oxidizer, or co2 storage and to refine for the 3d printer

SpaceNut · 2020-02-29 17:04:36

With all of the pages of content the quest for mars comes back to these simple mass quests..

Mars automated exploration rover sent ahead of mission planned site selection, with landing beacons and gps cube sat's for future use of communications and landing.

Launcher payload to earth orbit section or module identification for subassembly:

Preloading of selected site Mars landers for cargo consumed and equipment, mars lander for crew habitat, Mars small and or large Pressurized rover, Mars Insitu Propulsion Plant.

Subassembly AG provided transit vehicle (mini station) whether ION or chemical, cargo to consume for transit or return legs if we leave this vehicle in mars orbit, Mars crew lander and if not reuseable a return Mav.

elderflower · 2020-03-08 05:23:04

Earth moving equipment for grading/ clearing tracks and for piling regolith on top of shelters for radiation protection.

tahanson43206 · 2020-03-08 05:51:07

For elderflowre re #165

Thank you for this helpful addition to the list of equipment and capabilities for the Mars venture.

I'd like to add a use for the equipment you proposed ... It may well have been included in earlier posts in this or other topics, but the equipment you've described could also be used for digging trenches for underground habitat and passage ways, as well as greenhouses lit by LED lamps, and storage rooms of all kinds.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2020-03-08 10:16:30

Page 1 and 2 talk to the radiation and use of underground as a the means to protecting man not to meantion that we talk up this piling of regolith as a plausible method throughout many discusions as the easiest means to the end as we construct on the surface of mars.
The limitation of the equipment is the large mass and volume of each piece of equipment that man needs that is problematic. That is why we start small with altered forms of the items to aid with the first digging in to be able to get that protection without the mass problem.

Take for instance the backhoe shovel we used on the Pheonix lander as the attachment that we place onto a msl sized rover to be the first piece of construction equipment. A dozer blade will need to be heavier in mass but we can still place it onto a simular sized rover as we do for lawn equipment here on earth for small area snow removal.

This is part of the toehold approach to digiging in for a future rising number of crew and activity that we will be doing on the surface.

Topics with discusion of equipment:
John Deere "Gator" Crossover Utility Vehicle

RobertDyck's well laid out tool room

RobertDyck's Effective radiation shielding on Mars requires 2.4 metres thick regolith which continues with With a spacenut list of equipment followed by atv's, dozers, bobcats and more....with RobertDyck talking about wall pressure

Oldfart1939 brings up the Jonh Deere Tractor use

kbd512 chimes in on Land propulsion - Tracks, or tires?

We talk about the Battery power construction equipment

SpaceNut · 2020-03-11 17:08:49

We are going to need the tools to fight viruses. Cleaners and other products will need to be made...

http://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/home … li=BBnbcA0

hydrogen peroxide is water with an extra oxygen atom—hence the chemical distinction H₂O₂. While no longer recommended as a wound disinfectant (because it slows healing time), hydrogen peroxide has potent antibacterial, antiviral, antifungal, and bleaching properties.

Other such items that work such as vinegar which can be a universal cleaner for mold and mildew, Bleach can come in handy when you really want to disinfect or clean something.

SpaceNut · 2020-03-24 18:36:51

I think there are a few craters simular walled to make a living space into just like this
BB11DouJ.img?h=373&w=624&m=6&q=60&o=t&l=f

SpaceNut · 2020-03-31 17:06:22

tahanson43206 put forth these job types telepresence/teleoperation and I think they very much apply to mars living and construction.

They are also going to need building and repair for the many types of equipment that we will want.

I think a tractor robot would be much more useful. Something like this:
http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Tract … ct_Ecology
Having a rover base that could dig, drill, push or trench depending on the attachment would prove more useful than one that’s walking around using the same tools a human would. That being said, the torso like NASA is looking at could be very useful as a lab assistant

This reduces the risk factors to crew, valueable space suits and and oxygen supplies.

tahanson43206 · 2020-03-31 17:46:00

For SpaceNut re #170

Thank you for showing the link in this post.

FYI ... the link has not been updated in a while. The text implies that active development of the concept was underway.

I wonder if there is a way to ping the authors to see if they have an update.

This page was last edited on 22 August 2013, at 05:15.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2020-03-31 22:29:31

There are micro or small toe to foot holds for a settling process for mars from just a few crew with gradual buildup and emphasising efforts to become sustainable, and then there is the extreeme that BFR/Starship steps into with nothing prepared for its arrival using a brute force in hopes that it takes seed to grow.

I went back through the table of plots to see if we had anything for the use and or materials for 3D printing. Sure the usual contentions of small to large delivery to free energy to amke it all persist through like all topics but since this is a community building the use becomes clear with the many other materials which have already been discussed for habitats from the early pages using insitu materials to form what some would call a mars crete.

Since we have a few topics for these we can continue in those topics for specifics for what size and types to be brought and made on mars.

Here is the 3D printing topic where we started to talk about making nylon carbon tools with such a printer.

tahanson43206 · 2020-04-01 06:46:04

For SpaceNut .... at some point, when the dust settles with spammers, and you have a bit of time, it would be useful to think about outreach to attract the kind of member who is needed to start serious work on My Hacienda. Outreach could include letters to newspapers or magazines, if they still exist at that time.

Outreach could also consist of email to web sites which accept "news" articles about activities of individuals and organizations. There are some currently existing news distributors which accept announcements of events for non-profit organizations. The Mars Society qualifies, so there might be a few opportunities along those lines.

When it is time to begin a campaign of outreach, it will be appropriate to develop a "document" which can be posted by members in their respective locations. This "document" would be a brief statement of the purpose of My Hacienda, and kind of person invited to join. It will take a person with a lot of imagination, because we are talking here about an entirely mental exercise involving a large number of people interacting with each other to create a viable imaginary community. The key to this working is that the entire structure can be (should be) built so that it can be implemented on Earth in one of the proposed sites for a full-scale Mars simulation community.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2020-06-10 16:21:29

Adding in discussion of aspects for mars:

tahanson43206 wrote:

For SpaceNut re #23
Thank you for your follow up on this question!
I'd like to set up manufacture of kerosene as one of the key activities for My Hacienda.
i'll have to check the Registry to be sure we don't already have a plot assigned.
The details of how to make kerosene (following the links you provided) can be added to the plot record assigned to that activity.
There would (presumably) be a constant demand for a stable liquid form of stored energy on Mars.

registry notes:
0044 Kerosene, manufacture of: part of hydrocarbon manufacturing facility. Stable fuel for space launch
0045 Oxygen manufacture including liquid oxygen: part of atmosphere separation and concentration facility

Turning Mars Methane into kerosene on mars is more than plausible.. Synthesized 'solar' jet fuel: Renewable kerosene from sunlight, water and carbon dioxide

Although the solar-driven redox cycle for syngas production is still at an early stage of development, the processing of syngas to kerosene is already being deployed by companies, including Shell, on a global scale. This combined approach has the potential to provide a secure, sustainable and scalable supply of renewable aviation fuel and more generally for transport applications. Moreover, Fischer-Tropsch derived kerosene is already approved for commercial aviation.

Mars with regards to source chemicals will not have this problem as Coking occurs at a critical temperature with kerosene, if the kerosene contains contaminants such as sulfur; it's a function of having enough kerosene flow to prevent hot spots within the engine, probably in the throat and combustion chamber, and having really clean fuel.

SpaceNut · 2020-06-10 16:32:49

A search for kerosene did come up with quite a few post so here are the ones' for the topic as reposting:

Synfuels are just that and its only until we play with the different chemical processes using the various catalyst, temperature, pressures and a formular that we are trying to duplicate from a starting combination of ingredients. The synthetic kerosene or RP1 is just what we need for less poluting fuel mixes. Which will include gasoline and diesel as well. So any hydrocarbon fuels can be made if you want to afford the costs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_fuel

The Germans did research of all types as oil was a limiting factor wood gas was also used along with other fuel types.
For all hydrocarbon fuels the oxidizer is oxygen....
https://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-eff … -fuels.htm

Synthetic fuels are classified based on what feedstock was used to create them. By far, the three most prominent processes are Coal-To-Liquids (CTL), Gas-To-Liquids (GTL) and Biomass-To-Liquids (BTL). The widest-used form of synthetic fuel is liquefied coal and its derivatives.

https://www.fool.com/investing/general/ … tials.aspx

Its not until the price of oil skyrockets that we are even going to look at doing things differently.

The natural power of plants hold the secrets to what man should be able to do with by far less energy than what we use now.
Monitoring intermediates in CO2 conversion to formate by metal catalyst

triethanolamine-photocatalytic-cycle-conversion-carbon-dioxide-ruthenium-carbonyl-complexes-hg.jpg

Its the learning how to do it better that has elluded us.

Plants take in energy from sunlight to transform atmospheric carbon dioxide (CO2) into sugars and then other materials for growth and metabolic functions. Mimicking this photochemical reaction to efficiently convert CO2 into fuels and industrially important chemicals would support a sustainable energy future and reduce greenhouse gas emissions.
To realize such artificial photosynthesis, scientists have been studying catalytic systems composed of multiple components that work together to drive the transfer of photo-induced electrons required to convert CO2 into energy-rich products. One such product is formate, a salt form of formic acid - a naturally occurring organic chemical made of hydrogen and CO2 molecules. The production of formate from CO2 is considered an attractive strategy for the long-term storage of solar renewable energy in chemical form.

SpaceNut wrote:

While searching for data on the New F-1B possibility I got this infor mation to share.
http://arstechnica.com/science/2013/04/ … -thrust/2/
The specific impulse [of the liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen-powered RS-25 Space Shuttle Main Engines] at sea-level (lift off) conditions is slightly over 365 seconds...the engine produces about 365 pounds of thrust at sea-level for each pound of hydrogen and oxygen burned together each second. The gee-whiz part is the engine burns propellant at an extremely large rate, just under 1100 pounds (over half a ton) each second, so each engine produces around 400,000 pounds thrust (force) at sea-level."
The numbers are different with RP-1. "The best demonstrated Isp performance for hydrogen is almost 365 seconds and kerosene is 311 seconds," he went on. "So, if we were to design our two engines to the same thrust level we would see that the hydrogen fueled engine is about 17% (1.17 times) better at producing thrust per unit of mass flow into the engine. That means if both engine cycles were sized for the same thrust, the more efficient hydrogen engine would use 17% less mass in propellants to push on the vehicle with the same force."
This brings us back to the question of density versus efficiency. A 17% bump in efficiency and decrease in mass is a big deal—individual kilograms count when dealing with rockets. But that more efficient fuel takes up a lot more space, and Coates outlined that trade-off very clearly. "Liquid hydrogen has a density of about 4.3 pounds per cubic foot, or to put it differently, each gallon of liquid hydrogen only weighs a little over a half pound. A gallon of water weighs in at about 8.3 pounds. Kerosene fuel is much more dense than hydrogen at about 50 pounds per cubic foot or just over 6.7 pounds per gallon. The kerosene fuel is well over 1100% (11 times) more dense than hydrogen fuel."
The question, though, is whether or not the practical side of the equation can balance the romantic. The Advanced Booster competition will run through 2015, at which point a winner will be chosen, solid or liquid. The F-1B could be the engine sending astronauts to Mars—or it could wind up as one more Wikipedia footnote.

New Mars Forums

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#151 2020-02-08 14:47:57

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

#152 2020-02-09 09:59:06

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

#153 2020-02-09 10:42:13

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

#154 2020-02-09 11:22:41

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

#155 2020-02-09 15:28:13

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

#156 2020-02-15 19:43:46

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

#157 2020-02-15 19:47:33

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

#158 2020-02-16 08:42:06

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

#159 2020-02-16 11:26:22

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

#160 2020-02-16 11:42:49

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

#161 2020-02-16 12:39:12

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

#162 2020-02-17 07:54:09

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

#163 2020-02-17 16:37:56

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

#164 2020-02-29 17:04:36

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

#165 2020-03-08 05:23:04

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

#166 2020-03-08 05:51:07

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

#167 2020-03-08 10:16:30

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

#168 2020-03-11 17:08:49

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

#169 2020-03-24 18:36:51

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

#170 2020-03-31 17:06:22

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

#171 2020-03-31 17:46:00

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

#172 2020-03-31 22:29:31

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

#173 2020-04-01 06:46:04

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

#174 2020-06-10 16:21:29

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

#175 2020-06-10 16:32:49

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

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