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#76 2004-10-27 23:21:26

sethmckiness
Member
From: Iowa
Registered: 2002-09-20
Posts: 230

Re: Land propulsion - Tracks, or tires?

tracks.. vs.. Tires...  I would vote tracks... If... the desired land speed was slow..  specialized RUBBER or synthetic tires for higher speed transport.  Solid Axles.  etc.. using items from the offroad Rockcrawling industry.  With the Martian G being what it is, I think that many of the advantages of Tracks will be less noticed.  You will be put less weight on a given foot print, Keep it simple..  As far as micron sized dust particles..  They will be an issue that Sharper image can't solve.  I think the only way to truely pull these out of the air is through a water air filtration system or something of that nature.  If someone wants to goto mars.. they will take the risk...


We are only limited by our Will and our Imagination.

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#77 2005-01-11 19:03:40

Shaun Barrett
Member
From: Cairns, Queensland, Australia
Registered: 2001-12-28
Posts: 2,843

Re: Land propulsion - Tracks, or tires?

Back near the beginning of this thread, Rik made a suggestion about a possible design for a wheel which would function well in Martian conditions.
    It looks like somebody from Michelin was lurking in the background and has quietly lifted Rik's idea!   ???    :;):

    Have a look at this article.
    I'm not sure whether it's relevant to this discussion because I don't know how well the flexible spokes of the wheel would stand up to extreme cold. We may have the same problem that we had with traditional rubber and even metal mesh(?).

3603_01.jpg

    But, judging from the way the prototype (called a 'TWEEL'  - integrated Tyre/Wheel) performed on an Audi recently, we may be seeing these things on standard road-going vehicles before long.
    You should have taken out a patent, Rik!   sad


The word 'aerobics' came about when the gym instructors got together and said: If we're going to charge $10 an hour, we can't call it Jumping Up and Down.   - Rita Rudner

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#78 2005-02-05 01:41:51

Pulaskee
Member
From: US,Maine
Registered: 2005-02-05
Posts: 10

Re: Land propulsion - Tracks, or tires?

Interesting desing, i wonder if you could place some sort of energy making device on the spokes. Im thinking of the consept that i saw some were that used larg flotes on the ocean to move pumps that some how made electricity, forgive me late at night cant remember the artical well. but i wonder if you could place a liquid (one that wont freeze of course) or maby use a piston method to make power to help propel the veical?
also a plug for tires that i bet has been said (only read the first 3 pages) they are more versital, as in you can plase them jsut about any were on the body of the veical.


I am an amateur at best.

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#79 2005-02-05 02:07:47

Rxke
Member
From: Belgium
Registered: 2003-11-03
Posts: 3,657

Re: Land propulsion - Tracks, or tires?

Back near the beginning of this thread, Rik made a suggestion about a possible design for a wheel which would function well in Martian conditions.
    It looks like somebody from Michelin was lurking in the background and has quietly lifted Rik's idea!   ???    :;):

I'm rich! Beter call my lawyer! big_smile

*reads article...*  Nice design... But not exactly what I had in mind, sigh... So no money for me, heehee...

Good question about extreme temperature performance... Hope some space-car people have a hard look at this one...


ExoMars' launcher's 2nd stage is probably en route to Mars. Unsterilised... yikes

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#80 2005-02-05 23:48:08

idiom
Member
From: New Zealand
Registered: 2004-04-21
Posts: 312

Re: Land propulsion - Tracks, or tires?

The is better used being stored elastically in the spokes than being recovered.

The will definitley need to be some sort of paved area out side the airlock that can be blasted down daily. Cleaning outside before entering an airlock that is being kept at positive pressure should cut down on the amount of dust getting in the qirlock significantly right?

On tracks vs. wheels, efficiency is top of the agenda due to the premium on power/fuel.

Could a mesh tire have ...thin plutonium wire?... woven through it or small amounts of something warm alloyed with it? Plutonium pellets keep the rovers happy...


Come on to the Future

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#81 2005-02-06 02:00:51

Austin Stanley
Member
From: Texarkana, TX
Registered: 2002-03-18
Posts: 519
Website

Re: Land propulsion - Tracks, or tires?

The will definitley need to be some sort of paved area out side the airlock that can be blasted down daily. Cleaning outside before entering an airlock that is being kept at positive pressure should cut down on the amount of dust getting in the qirlock significantly right?

I'm not sure if needs to be "paved" but you are right finding somemethod of dust managment is likely to be key.  In a diffrent topic we briefly talked about some sort of CO2 "air curtian" being utilised to help create a dust free zone where the dust can more easily be removed via air-pick or something.  Something on a larger scale will probably eventualy be necessary to help facilitate vehicle  maintence.

Could a mesh tire have ...thin plutonium wire?... woven through it or small amounts of something warm alloyed with it? Plutonium pellets keep the rovers happy...

While I am actualy all in favor of using radiactive elements as heat sources, plutonium wire is a little bit of over kill.  If rubber tires need to be heated, electrical current will probably be sufficent.


He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.

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#82 2005-02-06 14:19:41

idiom
Member
From: New Zealand
Registered: 2004-04-21
Posts: 312

Re: Land propulsion - Tracks, or tires?

Radioactive elements can't breakdown as such. Well not for a few hundred years.

As far as paving goes... the surface needs to be sealed for a generous distance if your spray down is going to be effective or you will be trying to clean yourself in a dustbowl.


Come on to the Future

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#83 2005-05-31 09:21:38

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 10,375

Re: Land propulsion - Tracks, or tires?

Lunar solar: fixed and mobile

This article works though the calculations for use on the moon of a solar powered lunar buggy or rover.

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#84 2005-06-01 08:37:23

srmeaney
Member
From: 18 tiwi gdns rd, TIWI NT 0810
Registered: 2005-03-18
Posts: 976

Re: Land propulsion - Tracks, or tires?

On a future Martian colony, which do you think would be more likely to be used on ground transportation vehicles; tires or tracks-or some other method of moving along the ground?

Personally, I favor tracks as they require no synthetic rubber and no material to inflate them.  Which do you think would be most practical?

How about a big long Cylinder habitat with a  pair of wheels about it's circumference (one at each end) so it is a two wheel drive mobile habitat...

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#85 2005-06-01 09:23:13

Cobra Commander
Member
From: The outskirts of Detroit.
Registered: 2002-04-09
Posts: 3,039

Re: Land propulsion - Tracks, or tires?

Legs. Six of them. The lowly roach isn't a bad basic design for an all-terrain vehicle.


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

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#86 2005-06-01 10:10:34

Palomar
Member
From: USA
Registered: 2002-05-30
Posts: 9,734

Re: Land propulsion - Tracks, or tires?

Legs. Six of them. The lowly roach isn't a bad basic design for an all-terrain vehicle.

*You mean something along these lines?

Dang, it took me quite a Search to find this old thread  (old??  I didn't recall it being from just this year...).  Fortunately I recalled that John Deere manufactured it (after then scrolling through many pages of the Science & Technology folder); Searching with JD brought it up.

I also scrolled through this thread to see if the article had been posted previously here; it hasn't.

--Cindy


We all know those Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

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#87 2005-06-01 10:16:16

BWhite
Member
From: Chicago, Illinois
Registered: 2004-06-16
Posts: 2,635

Re: Land propulsion - Tracks, or tires?

Legs. Six of them. The lowly roach isn't a bad basic design for an all-terrain vehicle.

*You mean something along these lines?

Dang, it took me quite a Search to find this old thread  (old??  I didn't recall it being from just this year...).  Fortunately I recalled that John Deere manufactured it (after then scrolling through many pages of the Science & Technology folder); Searching with JD brought it up.

I also scrolled through this thread to see if the article had been posted previously here; it hasn't.

--Cindy

Two click from Cindy's link is this. MP3 players for your AK-47 - - just what every insurgent needs for Christmas, oops, whatever holiday insurgents celebrate.


Give someone a sufficient why and they can endure just about any how

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#88 2005-06-01 10:25:49

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 10,375

Re: Land propulsion - Tracks, or tires?

Not many places for solar panels, oups I mean for the cindy's link.

The fact that it is human operated and has a dome for the cab could lend its self to being used on moon or mars. Next problem is the power source to run it.

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#89 2005-12-12 19:27:44

sethmckiness
Member
From: Iowa
Registered: 2002-09-20
Posts: 230

Re: Land propulsion - Tracks, or tires?

Can I get one for my SKS?  how about my M-44 Carbine?


Probably not..  oh well..


We are only limited by our Will and our Imagination.

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#90 2017-05-17 23:21:04

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 10,375

Re: Land propulsion - Tracks, or tires?

It looks like we have a combo tire track design that will e the winner in the Marscart topic....

and another topic to fix....

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#91 2017-09-24 13:35:47

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 10,375

Re: Land propulsion - Tracks, or tires?

Finally fixed topics artifacts and shifting that I flagged awhile ago.

With the rovers current wheel design still taking a pounding and there being no words from Nasa of a change to its design to resolve its longevity of use the topics core element is still a valid question as any vehicle we use for man will be much heavier and would see more damage at the same speeds with the materials and design selection currently in use.

This sounds more like a college level challenge to look at the other options for moving on mars and how to fix the issues.

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#92 2017-09-24 15:55:54

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 2,479

Re: Land propulsion - Tracks, or tires?

I think for the early colony, making cogs and tracks will be easier than anything else. So I would support tracks for initial ISRU vehicle design on Mars. Using electric motors will make for simple engines.  Mnaufacturing of basic vehicles e.g. for transport between habs at the base could be achieved within 5-10 years if we import to Mars the right machines.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#93 2017-10-08 13:57:44

kbd512
Member
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 1,096

Re: Land propulsion - Tracks, or tires?

Wheels are for use on roads.  Tracks are for use off roads.  The US Army has conducted a slew of studies on this topic and that was their conclusion after exhaustively researching this topic over the course of multiple decades.  Every time they propose a new wheeled APC that's supposed to be a replacement for a tracked APC, they conduct another study and determine the same thing.  Basic physics will not change to favor boys who like trucks because they played with trucks as kids.  Trucks work great on roads and I own a Silverado, so I'm no different in my love of trucks, but you'll never see me suggest that it's as durable or capable as a tracked vehicle of equivalent weight and power for pure off road usage.  I can't make it overcome physics.  It'll never make a good airplane, either.

If Mars had any roads, I would be here advocating for the use of wheeled vehicles.  Unfortunately, it does not.  Even after trails are graded using tracked vehicles with blades attached, the physics involved still does not favor the use of wheels unless the regolith is compacted.  After bases are established and compacted regolith is used to construct thoroughfares between modules or bases there, then and only then should wheels be used in preference to tracks.

If we ever needed to deliver mass quantities of raw materials between two places on Mars separated by any significant distance, then we need railways for that purpose.  That's just more basic physics.

The wheels on the rovers we've sent there work acceptably well because the rovers are lightweight and move at a snail's pace.

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