New Mars Forums

Official discussion forum of The Mars Society and MarsNews.com

You are not logged in.

Announcement

Announcement: We've recently made changes to our user database and have removed inactive and spam users. If you can not login, please re-register.

#26 2019-02-12 18:48:15

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,565

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

I'd focus on ensuring people could enjoy life on Mars.  I'd use my one km plot to create an artificial covered gorge 800 metres long, between 50 and 100 metres deep and about 20-50 metres wide.  There would be cycleways and paths at various levels, climbing faces, rope walkways suspended between the sides, caves bored into the sides of the gorge, waterfalls, streams lots of imported vegetation. This wouldn't be a completely enclosed space like the Biosphere project.   Gases could be vented.  Humidity and air content could be controlled. All told, there would be the capability of walking or cycling 5 kms without retracing your steps.  Tunnels would connect to a surface gym, swimming pool, and sports court. 

Eventually the aim would be to connect this gorge to other gorges by tunnel so that people could explore much longer trails.

I'll need some help from whoever's handling life support and construction!

On the surface I'd also have the first Art Gallery on Mars and the first Sculpture Park, featuring local sculpture but also sculptures imported from Earth or constructed according to the specifications of Earth based artists.  The sports centre could also double as a music venue.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

Offline

#27 2019-02-12 19:20:41

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,054

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Is the plot on mars open air teraformed or is this under a very large enclosure with a defined hieght?

Does each plot have a common lane of travel between plots?

Somethings will be easier to do for the common good of the community should be no charge for residents of mars ex. water, air, power  and food where all must give a little to keep all safe. After that one can do for profit or entertainment.

Offline

#28 2019-02-12 20:57:31

kbd512
Moderator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 2,717

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

tahanson43206,

I think NASA has already determined what types of fission reactors will eventually go to Mars.  The most significant advantage of 5kWe to 10kWe reactors is portability.  There are two improvements to the basic KiloPower design that I can think of, related to mass optimization of the shielding and cooling subsystems.

1. Stainless Steel foam (actually looks more like Swiss cheese than a prototypical metal foam), which has been determined through actual testing to be a very good High-Z / Low-Z combination shielding material that more effectively blocks both gamma and neutron radiation using less mass than the prototypical Tungsten (W) / Lithium Hydride (LiH) sandwich solution.  The general idea would be that you'd shield the entire core, instead of just having a heavier conventional W / LiH shadow shield over the top, and could thus walk right up to the core for a few minutes to work on it, even if the reactor was operating at full power.  The shielding would most likely be every bit as heavy as the shadow shield it replaces, but would permit emplacement of the reactors much closer to the habitat modules.

Most conventional space reactor shielding designs put the LiH right at the core boundary (edge of the neutron reflector) to capture the neutrons via elastic collisions.  Any secondary gamma emissions from the LiH are then attenuated by the W.  The penalty is that because the W is much heavier than the LiH, the portion of the shadow shield composed of W becomes proportionally larger / heavier from being layered over the LiH.  A mass-optimized design would use a thicker piece of W right at the edge of the reflector to attenuate the gamma, the LiH would be layered over the top of the W, and then a much thinner piece of W would attenuate secondary gamma from the LiH.

2. The large Aluminum radiator fins add significant mass and volume to the unit that makes handling more difficult.  NASA has extensively tested sintered carbon fiber strips or strands for use in high temperature spacecraft radiators to reduce mass and size.  The carbon fiber is lighter than Aluminum and does a much better job of rejecting heat through its greatly increased surface area.  Despite the desire to use cheap and very well understood materials, I think the significant mass and volume reductions are worth qualifying the material for use with space nuclear power systems.

Some years back, we discussed the possibility of developing "bespoke" reactor designs made specifically for use on Mars.  Rather than using passive radiative cooling, I posited that a CO2 compressor that force-fed CO2 from the Martian atmosphere through a heat exchanger could greatly reduce the volume of the cooling / power transfer solution.  In theory, it could also reduce the mass fraction of the reactor devoted to cooling and limit the possibility of damaging long heat pipes and radiator panels during launch / landing / emplacement.  To be clear, this design would still require a hand crane and rover to move it, but it wouldn't be significantly larger than a very small jet engine (visualize a pair of 5 gallon buckets stacked on top of each other).  Since this is a compressor and heat exchanger cooling system in use here, albeit not a very powerful one, it'll require periodic dust removal.  A compressed CO2 bottle will be used to clean the heat exchanger core (like blowing compressed air through a car radiator to remove dust and bugs).  A Dyson-style system that spins the dust out of the compressor intake will be used to remove most of the dust from the atmosphere.  The "clue" that the reactor requires a heat exchanger blow-down is when the power drops since overheating of the core actually creates a reduction in power output.  Overheating negatively affects the neutron economy required to keep the chain reaction going.  It was designed in such a way as to make a thermal runaway all but impossible.  You have to start modifying the core configuration to melt it down because the surface area to volume ratio is too high for that to occur even if you rip the entire cooling system right off the reactor when it's operating at full power.  That was a mandatory design feature.

Since KiloPower was designed in such a way that it wouldn't melt down, even if the cooling system was entirely removed, then apart from utter simplicity, there's little to gain from using large and heavy passive Aluminum radiators.  The engineers are very familiar with this design, it works quite well, and it has the minimum number of moving parts required to function, but this design simplification also drives the significant size and mass of the complete reactor.  A much smaller "bespoke" design could be substituted, with the understanding that a little periodic maintenance is required.  After KiloPower has been shut down for 48 to 72 hours, you can disassemble it, if need be.  After 24 hours, there's no reason why you can't spend several hours near the reactor to blow down the heat exchanger.  A spare compressor of modest size and mass could be kept on-hand, too.

Anyway, just some thoughts on a small Mars-rated or Mars-specific reactor design.  We train and license people to operate and fix just about everything that has the potential to be dangerous.  As a homeowner on Mars, the only thing you need to know about it is that you don't mess with it and you stay away from it unless you're qualified to operate it.  Given where you're at, you should have a dosimeter and other radiation monitoring equipment on your person at all times.  This is just another potentially dangerous thing, but when used properly it has the ability to provide very reliable and consistent power for many decades.  If you run out of power on Mars, there is only one possible outcome and that is death.  That's the best reason I can think of to have robust nuclear power systems to feed power to Martian homesteads.

Modern batteries are certainly far more reliable and durable than they were in decades past, but high power density batteries generally don't last for decades on end without replacement and rely upon delicate and sophisticated control electronics.  This reactor is like one of those cast iron diesel engines from the early 1900's.  It's nowhere close to being the most efficient power solution available, but it runs reliably for many decades and that's what matters most.  Each KiloPower reactor has enough Uranium to reliably produce full rated output for about a century before fuel swelling and cracking requires core replacement.  With a modicum of maintenance, it'll likely outlive its original owner.  If run at reduced power output levels, it could provide power for two or even three generations of Martian homesteaders.

Offline

#29 2019-02-13 02:14:08

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,565

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Is this in the right thread. If the Mars colony is up and running, I think we've been using methane and oxygen for energy storage.  After all, huge amounts will need to be produced to fuel rockets for Earth return, so why not just tap into those supplies and operate methane/oxygen electricity generators? Each part of the City could have its own generating plant to even out electricity supply over the sol or during dust storms when PV power is low or non-existent.

kbd512 wrote:

tahanson43206,

I think NASA has already determined what types of fission reactors will eventually go to Mars.  The most significant advantage of 5kWe to 10kWe reactors is portability.  There are two improvements to the basic KiloPower design that I can think of, related to mass optimization of the shielding and cooling subsystems.

1. Stainless Steel foam (actually looks more like Swiss cheese than a prototypical metal foam), which has been determined through actual testing to be a very good High-Z / Low-Z combination shielding material that more effectively blocks both gamma and neutron radiation using less mass than the prototypical Tungsten (W) / Lithium Hydride (LiH) sandwich solution.  The general idea would be that you'd shield the entire core, instead of just having a heavier conventional W / LiH shadow shield over the top, and could thus walk right up to the core for a few minutes to work on it, even if the reactor was operating at full power.  The shielding would most likely be every bit as heavy as the shadow shield it replaces, but would permit emplacement of the reactors much closer to the habitat modules.

Most conventional space reactor shielding designs put the LiH right at the core boundary (edge of the neutron reflector) to capture the neutrons via elastic collisions.  Any secondary gamma emissions from the LiH are then attenuated by the W.  The penalty is that because the W is much heavier than the LiH, the portion of the shadow shield composed of W becomes proportionally larger / heavier from being layered over the LiH.  A mass-optimized design would use a thicker piece of W right at the edge of the reflector to attenuate the gamma, the LiH would be layered over the top of the W, and then a much thinner piece of W would attenuate secondary gamma from the LiH.

2. The large Aluminum radiator fins add significant mass and volume to the unit that makes handling more difficult.  NASA has extensively tested sintered carbon fiber strips or strands for use in high temperature spacecraft radiators to reduce mass and size.  The carbon fiber is lighter than Aluminum and does a much better job of rejecting heat through its greatly increased surface area.  Despite the desire to use cheap and very well understood materials, I think the significant mass and volume reductions are worth qualifying the material for use with space nuclear power systems.

Some years back, we discussed the possibility of developing "bespoke" reactor designs made specifically for use on Mars.  Rather than using passive radiative cooling, I posited that a CO2 compressor that force-fed CO2 from the Martian atmosphere through a heat exchanger could greatly reduce the volume of the cooling / power transfer solution.  In theory, it could also reduce the mass fraction of the reactor devoted to cooling and limit the possibility of damaging long heat pipes and radiator panels during launch / landing / emplacement.  To be clear, this design would still require a hand crane and rover to move it, but it wouldn't be significantly larger than a very small jet engine (visualize a pair of 5 gallon buckets stacked on top of each other).  Since this is a compressor and heat exchanger cooling system in use here, albeit not a very powerful one, it'll require periodic dust removal.  A compressed CO2 bottle will be used to clean the heat exchanger core (like blowing compressed air through a car radiator to remove dust and bugs).  A Dyson-style system that spins the dust out of the compressor intake will be used to remove most of the dust from the atmosphere.  The "clue" that the reactor requires a heat exchanger blow-down is when the power drops since overheating of the core actually creates a reduction in power output.  Overheating negatively affects the neutron economy required to keep the chain reaction going.  It was designed in such a way as to make a thermal runaway all but impossible.  You have to start modifying the core configuration to melt it down because the surface area to volume ratio is too high for that to occur even if you rip the entire cooling system right off the reactor when it's operating at full power.  That was a mandatory design feature.

Since KiloPower was designed in such a way that it wouldn't melt down, even if the cooling system was entirely removed, then apart from utter simplicity, there's little to gain from using large and heavy passive Aluminum radiators.  The engineers are very familiar with this design, it works quite well, and it has the minimum number of moving parts required to function, but this design simplification also drives the significant size and mass of the complete reactor.  A much smaller "bespoke" design could be substituted, with the understanding that a little periodic maintenance is required.  After KiloPower has been shut down for 48 to 72 hours, you can disassemble it, if need be.  After 24 hours, there's no reason why you can't spend several hours near the reactor to blow down the heat exchanger.  A spare compressor of modest size and mass could be kept on-hand, too.

Anyway, just some thoughts on a small Mars-rated or Mars-specific reactor design.  We train and license people to operate and fix just about everything that has the potential to be dangerous.  As a homeowner on Mars, the only thing you need to know about it is that you don't mess with it and you stay away from it unless you're qualified to operate it.  Given where you're at, you should have a dosimeter and other radiation monitoring equipment on your person at all times.  This is just another potentially dangerous thing, but when used properly it has the ability to provide very reliable and consistent power for many decades.  If you run out of power on Mars, there is only one possible outcome and that is death.  That's the best reason I can think of to have robust nuclear power systems to feed power to Martian homesteads.

Modern batteries are certainly far more reliable and durable than they were in decades past, but high power density batteries generally don't last for decades on end without replacement and rely upon delicate and sophisticated control electronics.  This reactor is like one of those cast iron diesel engines from the early 1900's.  It's nowhere close to being the most efficient power solution available, but it runs reliably for many decades and that's what matters most.  Each KiloPower reactor has enough Uranium to reliably produce full rated output for about a century before fuel swelling and cracking requires core replacement.  With a modicum of maintenance, it'll likely outlive its original owner.  If run at reduced power output levels, it could provide power for two or even three generations of Martian homesteaders.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

Offline

#30 2019-02-13 08:01:37

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 575

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Hi Louis,

You generously released Sagan City (the 2018 version) for Open Source development. 

RobertDyck will have final say with regards to the issue you raise.  However, I am hoping RobertDyck will endorse the concept I am trying to develop, and rule against your proposal to limit the kinds of enterprise which can be created in a (Virtual) Plot in Sagan City.

My vision for this undertaking is a combination of business incubator, and market opportunity identification exercise.

Each participant has a square kilometer of surface on Mars to develop into a combination of a home and an economic service. 

In particular, I would like to "buy" a fully operational fission reactor for installation below ground in my plot.  I want a steady, reliable supply of power to sustain the homestead and business activities without regard to external conditions.  I expect to locate most living and working facilities under ground, and thus to have the surface available for deployment of solar energy collecting systems.

If kbd512 is willing to set up shop as a provider of small nuclear reactors, as described in the post to which you have drawn attention, then I would be happy to "purchase" one of them, along with a service contract, exactly as I have done with a furnace in a terrestrial setting.

To facilitate the concept of commercial activity in the virtual environment of Sagan City, I am moving toward setting up a bank as the commercial enterprise on my plot.  I am thinking of making the Phobos equivalent to a US dollar, and a Deimos equivalent to a US dime.   To begin with, I am thinking of setting the exchange rate between Earth and Mars at one Phobos to the US dollar.  To begin with, I am thinking of setting the value of a Phobos to the value of a loaf of bread, more or less along the lines of how prices of commodities are used in the US to determine the value of the dollar for management purposes.

Thus, if kbd512 imports a reactor from Earth, his cost will include the Earth cost of the reactor, the Earth cost of fuel, the cost of shipment, a fee for installation including excavation of volume for the reactor in the buyer's plot, and a profit to sustain kbd512's enterprise.  I haven't worked out how the bank would work in detail, but in principle, it would lend kbd512 the funds to procure the reactor, and it would lend the buyer the funds to buy the reactor from kbd512.

All of that said, thank you VERY much for helping to move this concept along.  If this undertaking succeeds, it will be because everyone who participates is able to shape details of the concept. 

(th)

louis wrote:

Is this in the right thread. If the Mars colony is up and running, I think we've been using methane and oxygen for energy storage.  After all, huge amounts will need to be produced to fuel rockets for Earth return, so why not just tap into those supplies and operate methane/oxygen electricity generators? Each part of the City could have its own generating plant to even out electricity supply over the sol or during dust storms when PV power is low or non-existent.

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2019-02-13 08:47:21)

Offline

#31 2019-02-13 08:19:51

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 575

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For SpaceNut ...

Thank you for your support of the concept of a (virtual) business incubator and market identification exercise.

My concept is that the "owner" of a plot would have air rights above the plot to some altitude, similar to what I observe in the United States today.

As I am offering the concept to begin with, each Hacienda would stand (or sit?) alone with respect to the surface, so if the owner wanted a dome, as (for example) I gather that Louis has proposed for his entertainment and exercise facility, the owner would be free to provide one.

My concept is that the "owner" of a plot would have ground rights to some depth, in order to facilitate public transport facilities.  Unlike on Earth, I am anticipating that the equivalent of "roads" would be tunnels under the habitat region.  Tunnels would be separately bored for transport of goods and people using wheeled vehicles on rails or more sophisticated magnetic lift systems or something not yet invented, and for movement of liquids, gases, electricity for exchange between Haciendas for backup purposes, and communications lines, which I am assuming would be primarily fiber optic cable.

At this point, I am assuming that air transport would be the primary means of surface movement, and such movement would be expected to honor the air rights of neighboring Haciendas.

However, that said, I am open to negotiation with plot holders on the point of whether defined surface passage (eg, roads) should be defined as part of the responsibility of the plot owner, so that emergency vehicles (for example) can reach any plot where a visit might be necessary.

On your final point, SpaceNut ... we find ourselves in disagreement, but I hope we can resolve the issue to everyone's satisfaction.

"Free" service has no meaning in the context of a Mars settlement.  There is no "free" air.  There is no "free" water.  There is no "free" power.   There is no "free" medical care.  Each Hacienda is truly self sufficient.  That is why, if kbd512 will agree to provide one, I am interested in installing a fission reactor of sufficient power capability to sustain both a home and a business of modest size. 

In the context I am considering, each Hacienda owner needs to plan to either provide air, water and other needed items, or to buy them from a neighboring Hacienda which specializes in those products.   It is this Division of Labor that I hope to encourage in a (virtual) business incubator in NewMars forum.

(th)

SpaceNut wrote:

Is the plot on mars open air teraformed or is this under a very large enclosure with a defined hieght?

Does each plot have a common lane of travel between plots?

Somethings will be easier to do for the common good of the community should be no charge for residents of mars ex. water, air, power  and food where all must give a little to keep all safe. After that one can do for profit or entertainment.

Offline

#32 2019-02-13 18:20:42

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,054

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

2nd try to post a response...

Not really a conflict but a poorly phrased probing questions.

Seems that the plots are a registered claim deed.

With no buffers and no depth zones for the owner so long as they stay within the properties demensonal boundies they could conceivably mine to great depths in search of anything for profit, thermal heat source, water and anything else of interest....if no core one might tunnel all the way to the other side.. so does that mean they have 2 plots?

What a bad neighbor that would be....

Offline

#33 2019-02-16 16:46:22

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,054

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Another type of home is for the wandering type... topic is Plans for mobile base - on the mars

Edit in adding content:

The plot would on first mission need the lot defining markers to indicate actual boundaries for the plot. These can be visual as blinking light indicators and gps transponder radio type so as to make use of them for landing on your plot from that time forward rather than on some one elses or in the common landing area needing to move all of what you land for either case since its not on your plot.

Offline

#34 2019-02-17 07:01:50

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 575

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For SpaceNut ...

Thank you for this suggestion of a business activity for the Hacienda topic!

The kind of mobile exploration train you have shown would need to be provisioned and then supplied from a fixed facility.  One of the 7800 Haciendas can be dedicated to this, although I suspect the business would not support an entire Hacienda.  However, provisioning and resupply of exploration parties of all types, including a mobile train, would seem likely to require at least one Hacienda.


In accordance with standard practice for procurement of services, in the city where I live, I'll define three economic activities.

I'll add this to the Plot allocations post.

To see Plot allocations for Sagan City, enter the string below into the Search window, and tahanson43206 into the Author window:

Remove spaces between letters. 

S e a r c h T e r m :       and       : R e c o r d e r

(th)

SpaceNut wrote:

Another type of home is for the wandering type... topic is Plans for mobile base - on the mars

Offline

#35 2019-02-21 21:47:19

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,054

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Details for future posters:

tahanson43206 wrote:

will record in the post at this assign a plot number to you, or you can request one that is open.

The top Plot number available is 7800. Note: some have already been assigned.

Each Hacienda is considered to be a place of residence as well as a business.  Each Hacienda is expected to operate independently of everyone else for some period of time, although under normal circumstances the residents of the Hacienda community will exchange goods and services.  The Hacienda should be able to keep everyone comfortable for a period of at least 90 days, without having to draw upon external supplies.

You will want to add basic features to your Hacienda, such as a source of reliable power, the ability to purify waste water and to recycle all materials used in the Hacienda, without expelling any to the environment.  In that respect, the Hacienda will be similar to a space ship, or to a submarine on Earth.

Most importantly, you will want to select an economic activity for your Hacienda.  You will then become an expert in your chosen economic activity, over a period of time, if you are not already expert.

Offline

#36 2019-02-22 06:12:37

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 575

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For SpaceNut ...

Thank you for your support of the initiative to reach out to registered members of NewMars forum who have not yet posted a message.  We know that some folks who register are spam creators, because from time to time their offerings show up on the visible board.  However, I am hoping (always optimistic) that some of the folks who registered are of good will, and might be willing to participate if the invitation is extended.  I am glad to see that the message proposed draft reached you via the NewMars.com forum internal email feature.  For those who are not familiar with the internal email service, it shows up as coming from the webmaster, but if you open the source html for the message, you will find the actual email address of the sender. 

For this reason, I'll be using the new newmarsmember ID, which has an email address on gmail.com.

From previous experience with another forum, it would seem appropriate to have low expectations for this outreach effort.  Still, even if we only encourage one person to become a contributor, the effort will seem worth while.

(th)

Offline

#37 2019-02-22 18:27:46

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,054

Offline

#38 2019-02-22 18:41:05

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 575

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For SpaceNut #37 ...

the link to orange.fr failed when I tried it.  However, when I searched for just the document, this came up:
https://www.coursehero.com/file/2663074 … sign-1doc/

This appears to be a restricted subscription site, but the first page of the document is displayed, and it looks (to me) promising.

Beyond that, thanks for the comprehensive guidance for those who (I hope) will be accepting the challenge (and opportunity) to define living and working facilities on Mars.  I'd like to point out that whatever insights are gained by participants in thinking about Mars ** should ** be applicable on Earth.

(th)

Offline

#39 2019-02-23 07:10:23

NewMarsMember
Member
Registered: 2019-02-17
Posts: 2

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

SearchTerm:Outreach

For SpaceNut ...

2019/03/06: Seven new registrations were processed today:
Proxyspinc           not sent spam
nupumdersf123   sent
akshaygawli          sent
LesDrox                not sent spam
RobertDix              done
MickeyKova           use email not done
FathersdaySn        .done

2019/03/02: An invitation was emailed to: RickieGott
2019/03/02: It should be noted that there have been no positive responses to the outreach effort to date.
2019/03/01: No invitation was sent to a new member who appears to have contributed spam.
2019/02/28: Harold03 has withdrawn membership. Invitation email to AraC832736
2019/02/27: An invitation was emailed to:  Sharonblode. The location given is Russia.
2019/02/26: An invitation was emailed to: cbsofficial  A preface was added appropriate to India and software.
2019/02/25: Invitations were emailed to three new members: Harold03, Zdrobyshekgep, Murriei89
2019/02/24: An invitation was mailed to the most recent NewMars member: Jaclynkes
2019/02/23: Invitations were emailed to the three most recent NewMars members.

(th)

Last edited by NewMarsMember (2019-03-06 09:31:38)

Offline

#40 2019-02-23 12:43:20

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,669
Website

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Re post #37: the simplified life support schematic shows "Carbon Dioxide Reduction" with CO2 and H2 in, water out, and either acetylene (vented) or carbon (solid, disposed). But the "new" upgrade to ISS was installation of a Sabatier Reactor, which converts CO2 and H2 into water and methane. Methane is CH4, acetylene is C2H2. How do they plan to do this? Has anyone succeeded?
150px-Acetylene-CRC-IR-dimensions-2D.png

Currently human metabolism combines carbohydrate in food with oxygen from cabin air to form CO2 and water. Cellular respiration:
C6H12O6 + 6 O2 → 6 CO2 + 6 H2O

Plant photosynthesis:
6 CO2 + 6 H2O → C6H12O6 + 6 O2

On ISS, electrolysis breaks water and Sabatier combines hydrogen and oxygen:
water electrolysis: 2 H2O → 2 H2 + O2
Sabatier: 4 H2 + CO2 → CH4 + 2 H2O
Net: 1 CO6 + 2 H2O → 1 CH4 + 2 O2

Water electrolysis is run sufficient to produce enough oxygen for astronauts. The amount of hydrogen produced limits how much CO2 can be processed. Only half of cabin CO2 is processed by Sabatier, the rest is vented to space.
12 H2O → 12 H2 + 6 O2
12 H2 + 3 CO2 → 3 CH4 + 6 H2O
Net: 3 CO6 + 6 H2O → 3 CH4 + 6 O2

Notice that if everything worked perfectly, water and oxygen would recycle 100%. Of course nothing is perfect: some water is lost when methane is vented, not all water is recovered from urine, and no moisture at all is recovered from feces. And food isn't simple sugar (monosaccharide). Plants combine sugar to form complex carbohydrates, humans break those carbohydrates into simple sugar before mitochondria perform cellar respiration. So
[C5H10O6]n·H2O + (n - 1) H2O → n C6H12O6

But food is not perfectly dry. As long as there's one molecule of water for every monosaccharide in carbohydrate, life support should be balanced. Again, if equipment operated with 100% efficiency. Nothing ever does. Food supplied to ISS plus water must have enough to replenish losses in urine, feces, and humidity in gasses vented to space. And if vent gas contains any oxygen, then water electrolysis must replenish that with more water.

I have posted several times on this forum the idea of processing CO2 that is currently vented. Direct CO2 electrolysis consumes 3 times as much power per kg of O2 vs water electrolysis, and while Sabatier can recover 100% of oxygen from CO2, direct CO2 electrolysis only converts 80% of CO2 into CO (carbon monoxide). That means it recovers 40% of O2 contained in CO2. But 40% is better than 0%. This chart wants to further process methane to recover H2, so that hydrogen could process more CO2. Notice acetylene has a carbon:hydrogen ratio of 1:1. Human cellular respiration has a carbon:hydrogen ratio of 1:1. So theoretically, that would be much more tightly closed. You would risk producing a highly flammable gas instead of carbon monoxide, which is lethal in very small concentrations. How could that be done?

Last edited by RobertDyck (2019-02-23 12:47:53)

Offline

#41 2019-02-23 17:42:54

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,054

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Closing the Loop: Recycling Water and Air in Space
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi … 016419.pdf

Co + H2O = H2 +Co2
https://marspedia.org/Reverse_Water-Gas_Shift_Reaction
https://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/isru97/pdf/2505.pdf

https://web.anl.gov/PCS/acsfuel/preprin … 2_0274.pdf
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/c60f/b … bc28e2.pdf

Added content post as it relates:

elderflower wrote:

It takes a lot less energy to split the first O from CO2, making CO, than to split the second O to make Carbon. In addition the resulting C will be deposited all over your equipment and catalysts. Also heat recovery from a CO stream is a lot easier than trying to cool the solid carbon. On the downside, CO is not so easy to separate from your O2 product.

Offline

#42 2019-02-23 18:34:42

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 575

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

SearchTerm:Plot0006

This message is intended to become the anchor for a plot of virtual terrain in NewMars forum.

It is defined as a square a kilometer on a side located inside the circumference of Sagan City (2018), which is considered to have a radius of 50 kilometers.

The exact location of the plot on Mars is not a concern, because the purpose of this undertaking is to develop a community of NewMars members who are interested in developing detailed specifications for what a Hacienda on Mars might look like.

Each Hacienda is expected to be able to operate independently for a minimum of 90 days, so it will be expected to contain all the equipment and capabilities of the International Space Station and beyond.

More importantly for the purposes of developing a community, each Hacienda is expected to focus upon at least one economic activity.

This plot is dedicated (as it opens on 2019/02/23) to offering banking services.  Details of how this will be done remain undefined, but the expectation is that plots reserved in the NewMars Forum will be edited for a period of years, up to and including at least ten years.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2019-02-23 19:40:52)

Offline

#43 2019-02-24 14:37:47

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,669
Website

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Aww. My villa is designed to be the first on Mars. I designed my villa to be a "get away" for myself, some place to take a beautiful woman, and a start on Mars. It's designed to support a dozen visiting scientists (eg NASA scientists) to study Mars, at a price. Cost of a single seat on Soyuz was $82 million US dollars in 2015. The last 2 seats cost $75 million each in 2017. Now imagine the price I could charge per seat for a trip to Mars! Including stay in a luxury villa on Mars, for a day, a weekend, a week, a month, or multiple months! I smell profit!

Since the book "Red Mars" by Kim Stanley Robinson (1992) people have expected the first colonial transport will carry 100 settlers. My villa is designed to produce food, to be stored in a warehouse. This food could be purchased by new settlers. My intention is to have 26 months of food for 100 settlers before the first SpaceX colonial transport arrives. I also intend to mine Mars resources, smelt, refine, and manufacture components to build housing and life support for 100 settlers. Think of my warehouse as Lowe's or Home Depot or Menards or the Canadian company Rona. I wouldn't build habitats, but would have construction materials and tools to do so. The first job of new settlers would be to build their own housing. I would also produce propellant sufficient to refuel a SpaceX transport, so it could return to Earth.

If a billionaire wants to build an exclusive villa on Mars, I would be available as construction personnel and materials to build said villa. If that billionaire finds his plumbing fails on Mars, I would be available to fix it. Think of me as "Joe the Plumber" for billionaires on Mars.

My idea is a modification of the "Hillside Settlement" of the Mars Homestead Project. That isn't a coincidence, I was part of that project. Artwork was done by architect Georgi Petrov who got his Master degree in architecture from MIT for this, and artist Phil Smith. I couldn't do what they did; I'm a computer programmer and wanna-be aerospace engineer, not an artist. Some of the artwork from Mars Homestead...
normal_MHP-4FC-Image022.jpg
normal_MHP-4FC-Image007.jpg
normal_MHP-4FC-Image014.jpg
normal_MHP-4FC-Image029.jpg
normal_MHP-4FC-Image024.jpg
normal_MHP-4FC-Image026.jpg

Last edited by RobertDyck (2019-02-24 14:49:55)

Offline

#44 2019-02-24 17:43:15

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,054

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Nice RobertDyck...thou it is the rich end of the scale with site unknowns for construction and sustainablity but when money is no object we can dream big.

On the other end of the scale is a not so rich prospecting approach in which you are in a claim exploration mode for what does it have to offer for a return on the investing. Its nomadic in nature and looks for what other plots might have for the purpose of claim expansion. Which is then levearaged into the big dream and business future.

One way launch will mean all pieces sent must end up on the surface within the plot site. Vehicles for exploration mobility will be constructed on site making the majority of what lands flexible for the ability to pick up and continue to explore the plot..

The remaining parts are set into automated mode for oxygen creation, water and plants to grow while away from the main site.

Going back to main base units are with quick transport and leaves the nomadic units to await eventual return to continue with resupply from the base.

Use half the time of a mars cycle to explore while using the remaining setting up a return if funds run out or for more purchases to be made from what is found for more plots and return for earth purchases of returned goods. Resupply and upgrade equipment are sent on the next flights out.

Offline

#45 2019-02-24 19:48:07

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,565

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

I'd estimate 26 months of food for 100 settlers at about 120 tons.  Given Musk is talking about landing 500 tons or thereabout so is that really a bit deal? Of course that's "wet" food.  If you are confident you have water source on Mars, you could reduce the 120 tons figure substantially - realistically (since we don't want to subsist on dried food entirely) maybe by a quarter so we are talking about 90 tons.

I'd accept you might want to shave off a percentage of that through ISRU food production - but I doubt I'd go beyond 15%  - so down to  86.5 tons.

To me it makes more sense to take the 86.5 tons of food to Mars and then think in terms of incremental increase in food production. Trying to robotically produce that amount of food would require so much developmental resources = money I can't see why you would go down that road.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

Offline

#46 2019-02-24 20:53:58

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,669
Website

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Mars Homestead started with the premise that the first permanent settlers land on Mars and build a home for themselves. Send minimum, build as much as possible from In-Situ resources. The project was to design the settlement, so to focus on that rather than reinvent the wheel, we assumed settlers arrive in Mars Direct habitats. Notice site plan has 4 habs. Mars Homestead assumed 12 settlers; the 4th hab was to be delivered as a backup, with a mini-track loader (eg track Bobcat) instead of a rover, and loaded with tools. Also notice 2 small greenhouses off the Mars Habs. Actually, there should be one per hab. Large greenhouses would be built with tempered glass, made from Mars resources. Mars Homestead team had a vigorous debate over whether to use ambient light or artificial light. The architect chose to compromise by drawing the site plan with half and half. My villa would use all ambient light greenhouses. And they should be oriented perfectly east-west with mirrors along both sides. But the point is to grow food on Mars. Louis asked if that's practical. My "hacienda" would require a reason for being. And my villa wouldn't be built by 12 people, it would be built by me and robots. Again assuming from post #2 that I have Alcubierre drive so I can spend weekends and vacation time building it.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2019-02-24 21:07:17)

Offline

#47 2019-02-25 03:58:23

elderflower
Member
Registered: 2016-06-19
Posts: 1,087

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

So who is the lucky "beautiful woman"? Has she agreed to go?

Offline

#48 2019-03-18 11:42:25

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 575

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For SpaceNut ...

I asked the search tool for references to "second and life" and got 43 pages of results, starting with void's most recent post.

Can you suggest a way to find any posts that discuss the Second Life environment?  I am considering Second Life as an environment for developing Sagan City (2008) as a virtual community.  The initiative would be anchored here on the NewMars forum, but plot holders would be able to develop ideas in the Second Life virtual world.

I just updated my Second Life viewer to:

Release Notes/Second Life Release/6.1.0.524670

At this point I have not been able to determine if Mars Society has a presence on Second Life (or any other virtual platform).

My ID there is Tacks Hax.  The last name was provided as an option by the registration process, and I picked the first name because it rhymed. The name is not ideal, but by now I'm stuck with it.  Second Life was established in 2003 and is celebrating its 16th anniversary this year.

Edit: It turns out that the Second Life viewer for Linux is no longer supported by Linden Lab.

However, it appears there are several third party viewers for Linux.

The current version appears to be available for Mac from Linden Lab.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2019-03-18 13:23:49)

Offline

#49 2019-03-20 14:03:43

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,669
Website

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

tahanson43206 wrote:

At this point I have not been able to determine if Mars Society has a presence on Second Life (or any other virtual platform).

I am not aware of any official presence. However, there are people who have done things. Just do a Google search for "Second Life Mars" and you will find several. None are officially part of the Mars Society, but all have something to do with Mars.

Offline

#50 2019-03-21 09:13:47

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 575

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For RobertDyck re #49

Thanks for the tip!  I'll follow up!

Also just FYI ... I am trying to figure out how to recruit (and retain) people to fill the virtual community in Sagan City (2018).  The kinds of people I am hoping will join this initiative are ones who see themselves as capable of designing a combination living space and productive economic activity in a one kilometer square plot on (and in) the surface of Mars.  The intent here is to allow participants to show potential investors that they have what it would take to implement designs that would stand up to the test of reality. 

So far, my outreach to newly registered "members" of NewMars forum has yielded zero results.  In fact, one person removed his membership when my message arrived.  The shock of being noticed must have been too much << grin >>.

(th)

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB