New Mars Forums

In this drawing from the previous post, there is a possibility that ice tunnels in ice masses may be able to store air.

I am presuming that lasers starting at the base of an ice mass could melt sideways with a bit of up-angle.  On Mars, the gravity is .38 that of Earth and the ice is likely colder than that of Earth's poles.  The tendency to sag for such ice tunnels may be lower.

It may also be possible to make braces from Carbon or some other materials to help keep them from sagging.  And you may pressurize the tunnels as well, perhaps that would reduce sag.

So, during a global dust storm, presuming orbital power is cut off you would have a major air supply.

You may also be living in rock tunnels that are containing residual heat.  They may be down in the rock below either ice or water.

So, then you have heat and Air, and presumably you have stored food, either frozen or dried.

You may have nuclear reactors as well, of course.

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I have suggested wind fences made of solar panels in the past.  But I also suggest ice pits.  That is if you have a body of ice that you can pull water from then you can leave pits that dust might become trapped in.

There are many high latitude ice slabs and some in the mid-latitudes.

https://www.astronomy.com/science/massi … d-on-mars/
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Lets imagine a trenching machine that would eat into the ice slab, leaving a trench.  Perhaps it would receive power form orbit.  It would take the water vapor from the ice and make Oxygen and Hydrogen.  Then from the Atmosphere, Oxygen and Carbon.  Then Methane.  Then if you had pipelines you could transport the methane across planet.  Pipes might be of Cast Basalt???

There would be Methane Leakage, but who cares, it is a greenhouse gas.

The trenches could be across the wind patterns or might be serpentine in nature so as to catch dust, and to store it where dust devils cannot suck it up.

So, perhaps this method could over time reduce the dust load available to Global Dust Storms and so altering the climate to be more favorable to human use.

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Here is a cross section drawing of a "Dust Capture Trench".:

The ice that would be exposed by trenching would need to be covered by some type of suitable materials after the trenching.  Perhaps just regolith may do, or maybe a vapor barrier under the soil is desired.

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More of this stuff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXhi0dOfz6c
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I am not able to swim in their ocean.  I do not know how real it is.

But it is interesting.  They link Frances attacks of "X" to very important matters.

It is surprising when Poland and Italy look like American's friends, and the UK and France act like enemies to our interests.

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Referring to the electrolysis methods mentioned in the previous post, I presume simulated decay products like Acetate can be produced, along with Oxygen.

It seems likely to me that some organisms' east products of decay.  Obviously, Fungi and Yeast.  But some Algae and maybe some plants also do so.  This could explain in part how some organisms would survive an extinction disaster.  Lots of dead materials decaying, and residual Oxygen in the air and water.  I saw in one search that the decay of Macroalgae not only produces Acetate but also some other products.  Perhaps those also might be used to grow other organisms.

So, as fuels to grow things we have Hydrogen, Methane, Acetate, and perhaps some other things.

As a segway, I have an idea for utilizing Hydrogen, underwater.  Since it is in my mind I will make a drawing.

Hydrogen has multiple problems with handling.  In this case I imagine a flexible Hydrogen bag inside of a flexible agriculture bag.

The Hydrogen is expected to leak out of the Hydrogen over time and feed organisms as a food/fuel.  The Host bag that it is inside of will have water suitable to some type of living organisms, and the needed nutrients provided and either Oxygen dissolved in the water or CO2 dissolved in the water.

If the case is CO2, then the microbes might likely product Methane, and also might do some tasks, like:
-Precision Fermentation
-Cellular Farming
-Mineral processing related to mining.

I imagine we might expect free floating organisms and organisms making a biofilm.  A robot to "Weed" this situation might be desired.

In the case of the Salton Sea, then the lake may provide shelter.  The assembly may be in relatively shallow water.

This could be done on the bottom of lakes or on the continental shelf.  In shallow areas some light would get though, perhaps helpful to signal organisms what to do.

The growing of Macroalgae in such bags might be useful.  I don't know if they would be able to utilize dissolved Hydrogen or not.  Of course they would need Oxygen and not CO2.  They might be provided both Hydrogen and Acetate and perhaps some other decay product simulation.

And we do not know if some organisms can consume Methane under water.  It seems reasonable that they might because Methane Seeps and so on.

Macroalgae consuming dissolved Methane?  Well, it might be possible.  Don't know.

While open water might blead a little light into relatively shallow bottoms, it might also be possible to pipe light down with fiber optics or alternately produce a little light with LET's.  These might be useful on Mars.

Anyway even if you have toxic water like the Dead Sea, you might put these things into it and grow crops.  You may have problems anchoring them down in such buoyant water though.

Can we do a "Wetter" Nemo's garden?  https://www.nemosgarden.com/
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These underwater domes are filled with air, and are hard to anchor down, and will have significant differential air pressure to hold against.

But a mostly water filled situation may be easier.  Macroalgae might be an option.

A Wet Version:

So, this could utilize both photosynthesis and chemosynthesis with Acetate, Methane?, Hydrogen?

To some extent Macroalgae being domesticated could be a sort of Vegetables in the diet of people.

The risk of Hydrogen explosions may be low, as the air pocket on top is small, and we hope that the organisms within will consume the Hydrogen that leaks though the Hydrogen bag.  But there could be some risk.  But the volume of the explosion may be low.

The air pocket might also allow humans to work inside of the structure, but the gasses would need monitoring and perhaps robots would do as well.

This would be frost free agriculture, and with unusual circumstances so that normal pest species for the crop would be inhibited from damaging it.

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So, for instance you might switch to this kind of agriculture and allow the Aral Sea to fill back up with water.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aral_Sea

You could put floating solar over the deeper parts and this agriculture in the shallower parts.  Floating Solar may reduce evaporation, perhaps allowing the sea to expand even more.

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Data Centers in space will be important for robots, including cars and humanoids: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N68li3iPx54
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I am not sure how much of this I am in agreement with but it is interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk-GQGFMuXQ
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I am not sure they can do this without the approval of some spooky forces, but it is interesting.

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The idea of using large bodies of water as bearings is an interesting one, but they are at times very turbulent.  And Mars does not at this time have larger bodies of water.  So, I think to use water as a bearing internal to land.  And I hope to introduce processes on Earth that might be translatable to Mars.

I don't actually like to pick on little girls, but I am eager to have human civilization depart from "Gretta-Land".

While the Aerobic side interests me, I am also very interested in what the Anaerobic side H2/CO2 can do for us.  Problems with Hydrogen are storage, and generation of it from water.  It is my impression that it is easier to split Methane than it is to split water.

https://www.pnnl.gov/news-media/new-cle … -emissions
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So, the above may solve the creation of Hydrogen and the creation of Carbon Solids for structures and machine parts.

The Hydrogen might then be dissolved into pontoons of water to foster the growth of Methanogens which will produce Methane.  So, we can rotate the Hydrogen molecules back and forth between these two processes.

Hydrogen solubility in water is rather low, so you might put your compressed Hydrogen tanks inside of the pontoons of water.  That way generally Hydrogen that leaks from such a storage will be delivered to the Methanogens over time.  The Hydrogen tanks then become "Hydrogen Capacitors".

The Methanogens can be put to work to make things other than Methane.
-Precision Fermentation
-Cellular Agriculture
-Biomining

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanogen
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precision_fermentation

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So, now the atmosphere itself becomes a universal pipeline that delivers CO2 to any surface location on Earth, Mars, or Venus.  Of course the Surface of Venus is hopeless, but there is hope at altitude.

So, now we do not suffer if someone burns coal, but we might benefit.

In the case of Earth, we might draw down the CO2 to bring on an ice age, but then beam extra solar power from space, to compensate for the loss of insulation.  So, then artificially controlling the climate.

Purposely thawing the North with imported power and letting Antarctica pull water out of the oceans to make ice.  And then developing the technology to life on and in the ice of Antarctica.

Simply options, not mandates.

But in an imaginary future we might draw down the oceans to Ice Age levels if that was desired.

For Mars, imported power from space may help to improve the conditions, allowing at least mostly covered lakes and seas.

Here again if you have various sized floating Lilly pad solar installations that cover 90%/95%/99% of the water, and active irrigation, significant bodies of water may be made possible even with a relatively low atmospheric pressure.

Again, harvesting the CO2 you might make Carbon Structures.  You would need to replace the CO2 with other gasses over time to maintain the atmospheric pressure.

I suggest processing the moons of Mars and the rocks of Mars to produce more Oxygen for the purpose.  Then also moving asteroids into the orbits of Mars to process them as well.

Someday then to import Nitrogen from some source or to recover it from underground if there is some in the deep water in the crust.

For Venus I am hoping that Carbon and/or other structures may be extracted from the atmosphere to make floating structures.

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Exploded Primordial Black Hole?

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE
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I think I understand a little and wonder.

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So, for marginal places like brine lakes, or even just desert, two different processes might be done:
1)-Aerobic
2)-Anerobic

1) Aerobic: Acetate/Oxygen
2) Anerobic: Hydrogen/CO2

These can be done in the shade, as plastic tends to deteriorate under sunlight.

The #1 Aerobic, has recently been discovered as possible:
https://www.snexplores.org/article/inno … ts-in-dark
https://www.biotechniques.com/plant-cli … -sunlight/

So, Aerobic can be single cell and multicellular.

The #2 Anerobic as far as I know these are all single cell organisms.

For #1, Yeast is said to be 18x more efficient than photosynthesis.
For #1, Algae is said to be 4x more efficient than photosynthesis.
* It is hard to know if Macro-Algae also work well with Acetate and Oxygen.
* We can hope that multicellular plants might be adaptive to Acetate and Oxygen.

* I have an interest in the domestication of some large plants for this purpose.  Macro-Algae such as Sargasso Seaweed, Hydrilla, Duckweed.  Duckweed will need an air layer in the flotation bladders.

For #2 as far as I know all the organisms are single cell.  I wonder if gene editing could create multicellular that can live on Hydrogen/CO2.
This might scare some people, but there is no natural environment on Earth of any scale where these could go "Feral".  IF you could create vegetables that could life off of Hydrogen/CO2.

At any rate, I think that the Hydrogen cycle is more economic as per energy than is the Oxygen cycle.  And might be very useful in capturing CO2 out of the environment.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs … 719e2f6ea5
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So, we can then look at making Carbon products: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=11299
"Index» Life support systems» Carbon is the New Metal"

So, in this process a byproduct could be Precision Fermentation Products, and also perhaps Cellular Food Production.

I think this #2 Anerobic cycle will be rather energy efficient.

And this solar process would not have to be connected to a grid, although it could be.  So, if in a desert, in a brine pool, the sunshine may be as predictable as can be on the Earth, I believe.  So,you could run the process mostly when the sun shines, and not so much when it does not shine.

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Here then is a "Water Pontoon" scheme:

If you were to suppress the wave mixing action of the Salton Sea, you might turn the whole thing into a solar salt pond.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_pond
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With most of the body of water, such as the Salton Sea covered in floating island for solar energy and also bio-farming, the waves suppressed, so then mixing suppressed, you intentionally use heat pumps to extract heat from the upper waters and add it to the lower waters.  You also induce salt gradients.

Having done this then the upper waters may be suitable for fish to live in as you have pushed some of the salt down to the bottom of the reservoir.

And when convenient you might then extract the heat for some process you desire to maintain.  You actually might be able to run a heat engine from it even.

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This is perhaps a case where at times your heat pumps might extract heat from the solar panels in addition to the electricity generated.  Then to heat the bottom water.  Then at night the solar panels to behave as radiators, and again if desired to reject heat into the solar panels using a heat pump system.  To some extent this may extract energy from the day/night cycle.

A very important sub-part of this is to extract CO2 from the air directly or indirectly from the Salton Sea.

So, then to use it to produce plastics and Carbon products, and to regulate the climate of a planet.

For Mars this may be possible when the entire amount of CO2 available is vaporized into the atmosphere, but certain revisions of method may be needed. 

For Mars, it can be expected that the process will leak Hydrocarbons into the atmosphere which would be assistive to further terraform the planet.

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So, actually I was a hurry on the last post.  I believe that microbes that you might feed CO2 and H2, will create Methane and the other products of their metabolism.

https://news.berkeley.edu/2025/08/14/sc … f-methane/
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So, energy-wise, I believe that it is easier to split Methane with electrolysis than it is to split water.

So, this anerobic process could be used in Precision Fermentation and also Cellular Agriculture, I believe.

I think the process could be useful in creating Carbon products and also in making plastics.

And I think this could work on Mars with some alterations.

If the ability to build Carbon products is a thing that keeps growing, then Venus would be valuable for both Nitrogen and Carbon, provided that the products would be useful in the atmosphere, or if some method to lift things to orbit on Venus emerges.

And then as you go our in the solar system to the Outer Asteroid Belt, Carbon is plenty, and then also presumed to be in the moons of the outer planets, and part of Pluto and other dwarf planets.

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This is how I analyze reality:

I do not like the China claim to be part of a "Global South".

I have given both Africa (Sub Saharan), and China, the option to be the top or lower box.  If you actually made the cubic "Globe", you could put one of them in each of the two boxes.

I regard the middle east as "Burned Out Territory".  Civilization has made them too dependent on the verbal and violent for the method that they earn their wealth.  Allowing the wrong types to breed excessively.  (My opinion as a theory).

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I gave the Anglicans and by default some other religious authorities a reprimand, as if they are actually Christians, they can take it, and will not retaliate.  In turn it is somewhat reasonable that they express their concerns about the actions of some powerful people in our country.

I only study the claims of the Promethean action people.

Their descriptions of reality to some extent ring true.

I am reasonably convinced that the underworld and many espionage networks around the world often swim in the same dirty waters.

The first thing that any spy agency does to penetrate another nation, or group is to seek out the criminal elements of that society.

I do at this point think that the "British Invasion" of America was actual, in the 60's and so on.  The drugs, the sex, the promoted stars.  Most people think that the important thing about Jeffrey Epstein was associated with sex with the wrong female type.  But what way to find the holes in the morality of a society, and to get a handhold on events.

The British are criticized for the Opium wars.  But it seems that China participates on the assault on America from drug economics now.  That is a stain on their claims to being innocent victims.

Troublesome money it is.  It becomes obvious that our "Friends" have been stabbing us in the back and collaborating with competitor powers.

For instance, Fracking.  Why did the left and the Europeans, do such an outcry against fracking?  (OPEC + Russia).  Hydrocarbon money, used for mischief.

The Globalists, did not want America to resume energy self-sufficiency.  Each of the powers, Islamic or Communist, had characteristics that are hostile to America, but our "Frends" did not want us to have energy self-sufficiency.

It seems as though to control us we needed to be crippled from time to time from betrayals.  If we were hobbled we could continue to be their stupid thug.

So, trust is running thin.

For instance, it was a French person who coined the word "Hispanic".  This was an effort to damage Anglo interests.

I watch these silly videos about 3rd world people, who are desperate to not be European, even though they look very European in some cases.  Often they may be of a large part Spanish.

The world White was instituted so that a group "Black" could be established as well.

These are all tricks to manufacture instabilities in our society.  They try to draw a false quorum, for there efforts of hostility to America.

OF course, the Islam and the Communists, and their kindred, having money from the petrochemical industry so as to compete or damage or conquest the USA.  But that is old money that is drying up.  We are making much of that money, our money.

It was very unkind for G.B. and the West Europeans to have so little consideration for our needs.  But it was only human.

America has so far figured out how to balance the state powers and the federal powers.  Europe has not and I think it likely that they cannot.  So, I think they are unstable.  It took a lot of American energy to hold the so called west together.

I believe that America is now in a Eurasian Phase and has concluded its Eurafrican phase.  The Nordics, the Poles, Hungarians, and even Russians, have some potential activities with us.  The Nordics though have their heads up someone else's bottoms though at this time as I would measure it.  We did quite a lot to assist them in their recovery from the world they were in.  And then what was this stupid thing they did with 3rd world immigrants.

So, we have to be concerned about malice and stupidity when we are connected up to the Europeans.  I think it is necessary for America to hold Europe at arm's length more now.

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