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#26 2026-01-06 06:05:12
- Void
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Re: Bipolar Mars Terraform Plan
Continuing with the materials of the previous pos: 
The wheels "Mouth" of the device do spinnies on the dirt of a world like Phobos. They can also be steered to help spin the device; I guess.
But what grabs me now is the possible composition of the dust of Phobos.
Quote:
C-type rock
Phobos, the innermost moon of Mars, is primarily composed of C-type rock, similar to blackish carbonaceous chondrite asteroids. It appears to be covered with a layer of fine dust and fine-grained regolith, which is likely created by impacts from other bodies. The surface of Phobos has been heavily cratered and is characterized by a low density, suggesting a mixture of rock and possibly ice.
So without as much optimism if we presume some Carbon and some Oxidized Metals, we are quite close to what Starship needs for filling.
If it is presumed that Hydrogen has to come from the surface of Mars, but Photos does have Carbon and Oxygen, so math may help to understand.
In Starship the weight of Oxygen/Methane is about ~3.6/1
What is the weight of Carbon and Hydrogen?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon
Quote:
Standard atomic weight Ar°(C)
[12.0096, 12.0116][1]
12.011±0.002 (abridged)[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen
Quote:
Standard atomic weight Ar°(H)
[1.00784, 1.00811][1]
1.0080±0.0002 (abridged)[2]
So with math made crude, can I think that in CH4, the Carbon has 12 of the total weight and the four Hydrogens have 4 of the total weight of a Methane molecule?
So, by lifting Hydrogen from Mars, we are lifting the minority of the weight of the fuel which is the minority of the propellants for Starship?
Oxygen/Methane = 3.6/1
Carbon/Hydrogen = 12/4
So a process of refilling from Phobos may be very useful for Starship.
The Stoke Space 2nd Stage may be very useful to lift Hydrogen from the surface of Mars to assist this process to support Starship.
*If there is both Carbon and Oxygen and no Hydrogen in Phobos, it might be useful to have a Oxygen/Co2 propulsion system to use in orbit of Mars. Perhaps the Dust Eater could use it to maneuver.
But this looks pretty hopeful, if Carbon is included in the dust of Phobos, and perhaps also Deimos.
Ending Pending 
Last edited by Void (2026-01-06 06:25:31)
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#27 2026-01-06 11:27:55
- Void
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Re: Bipolar Mars Terraform Plan
So this device is beginning to look like a top: https://fity.club/lists/suggestions/Spinning-Top-Gif/
Image Quote: 
We need to keep in mind that the gravity of Phobos and Deimos is rather low.
If it is possible to use the wheeled mouth method to draw dust into this spinning device. If the bottom is too pointy and sinks in too much then it can be broadened out.
While dust will not naturally cling to all inner surfaces of the device, we can make slag bricks and put them into bags and fasten them to the inner surfaces, to create radiation protection.
I suppose it might even be possible to embed a Standford torus inside of the "Top".
It could be possible but perhaps not sensible. But the "Top" dust eater is, I think a real possibility.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-01-06 11:54:00)
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#28 2026-01-06 12:17:44
- Void
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Re: Bipolar Mars Terraform Plan
OK, I have this which may be more practical: 
You get portions of the top filled with dust, and then you back away from Phobos and then you embed your crew compartments in the dirt.
You may have some synthetic gravity, and you may have sufficient radiation protection. You may start processing the dirt, into various things.
The majority of the "Top" could be of fabrics, with some "Boning" added.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-01-06 12:20:03)
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#29 2026-01-07 10:58:47
- Void
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Re: Bipolar Mars Terraform Plan
I want to briefly better define the direction of this.
I am being optimistic about Carbon on one or two of the Marian moon. So, then I am hoping that for orbits of Mars, it may be possible to use CO and O2 combustion for propulsion.
Although it might be possible to spin up the tops with friction on Phobos or Deimos, I am moving towards a parent device that would spin the tops up with rotating magnetic fields. So then the tops will become flywheels that store energy.
The parent devices might be powered in part with CO/O2 combustion, but for orbital position, and spin, other means may be available. Perhaps Magdrive or Neumann Drive, perhaps an Oxygen mass driver that ejects Oxygen ice cubes.
So, these spinning tops would need a means to dip down to a small world like Phobos or Deimos, and gather some surface materials.
Then we need a means to rise back up to the parent devices.
We also have a need for a means to transfer the collected "Ore" from the "Flywheel-Tops"< and to the parent devices in Mars orbits.
The tops can also have electric systems in them including an energy source and perhaps batteries.
Some kind of thrusters sufficient for the linear path "Up and Down">
I would prefer to avoid use of combustion propellants, but do not exclude their use.
The parent devices would probably come in pairs, linked to each other so they would not continually build up more and more spin when the would push spin energy into the "Flywheel-Tops".
So, ideally this apparatus can at least partially refill various types of Spacecrafts with propellants.
Again, it may be needed to obtain Hydrogen from Mars itself.
Using mirrors in the orbits of Mars, the energy for this purpose should be relabel from solar energy, unlike the surface of Mars.
So, refilling ships in orbit may be better than to do so on the surface of Mars. Although you will still want some refilling method on the surface of Mars.
A ship intending to go to Earth/Moon or the Asteroid belt would only need to rise up to orbit and be refilled there, so the refilling on the surface of Mars could be a "Small Partial" refilling.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-01-07 11:12:30)
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#30 2026-01-10 11:27:29
- Void
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Re: Bipolar Mars Terraform Plan
I want to import this material from a topic about the Moon: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 17#p237017
Quote:
I intend to try to have a discipline to avoid chat/politics. I will stay here (I hope) only for technological matters.
I really was excited about this: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE Quote:
Railguns on the Moon? Elon Musk's Orbital AI Vision Could Build a Thriving Cislunar Economy
Yes, the story is rather optimistic, but it is good for the soul.
Ending Pending smile
So, my hope is that some of the content of that video, can be translated into efforts for Deimos/Phobos/Mars/Asteroids.
From post #28, I still am contemplating this:
I want t
o describe better the "Mouth" of the collection process and then proposed chain of method to handle the "Ore".
So, you might imagine a stupid teen doing spins on gravel and tossing gravel into the air.
The tires can be rotated so that the air mis best to collect the ejected materials into the mouth of the Cone of the collector.
The Cone is spinning, so we are now handing, the "Ore" as "Pinned" by centrifugal force to the inside rim of the collector.
The wheels could be like those of a car with texture for traction, or perhaps a bit like riverboat paddles.
I have revised my notion as to hot have these free flying but to be attached to a larger device by a scissors type extender.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_work_platform
Image Quote: 
OK POGO-TOP: 
The mouth part can be retracted into the bin, and gates at it's perimeter can open like on a train car that hauls iron ore. The regolith drops into the "Bin".
The device might be able to jump like a pogo stick up and down on the surface of a tiny world, using the scissors jack as the impulse.
The Bin and Mouth parts might spin in opposite directions like a top.
The Base of the Scissors Jack may have actuators that can move it to steer the bounces.
Of course, I have been formulating this while I did the drawing. So, alterations are expected. So, for instance the Bin, might resemble a larger form of the Mouth device. By doing Pogo and Spins, I hope to reduce the amount of thruster gas that might be necessary to manipulate the device.
When the Bin was "Filled", it would then by some means to a facility where it could be unloaded and the "Ore" be processed.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-01-10 12:29:00)
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#31 2026-02-07 11:03:48
- Void
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Re: Bipolar Mars Terraform Plan
I have not been one who has had faith in space elevators. However, some understandings have prompted me to move to the level of hope for a Space Elevator for Mars.
https://marspedia.org/Space_elevator
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Concept art – Artofit
A Mars space elevator is a proposed transportation system that could facilitate travel between the Martian surface and orbit, leveraging Mars' lower gravity to simplify construction compared to Earth.
Concept and Design
A space elevator on Mars would consist of a high-tensile cable anchored to the Martian surface and extending into space, potentially reaching a synchronous orbit and beyond. The lower gravity of Mars (about 38% that of Earth) means that the tensile strength required for the cable is significantly less, making the construction of such a structure more feasible.
marspedia.org
Advantages
Cost-Effective Transportation: A space elevator would allow for continuous transport of cargo and possibly passengers to and from Mars orbit without the need for large rockets, significantly reducing costs associated with space travel.
1
Sustainable Access: Unlike traditional rocket launches, which are limited by fuel and logistics, a space elevator could provide a more sustainable and efficient means of accessing space, enabling more frequent missions and research opportunities.
12 Sources
Current Research and Feasibility
Recent studies have explored the feasibility of deploying a space elevator at the L1 libration point between Mars and its moon Phobos. This design would allow for a cable extending towards both Mars and Phobos, facilitating travel in both directions. Theoretical models have been developed to analyze the dynamics of such a system, including the motion of climbers and the effects of gravitational forces.
Springer
Future Prospects
While the technology to build a Mars space elevator is still in the conceptual stage, ongoing research and advancements in materials science may eventually make this ambitious project a reality. Companies like the Obayashi Corporation have expressed interest in developing space elevators, with plans that could potentially include Mars in the future.
Science TimesIn summary, a Mars space elevator represents a revolutionary concept in space transportation, promising to enhance our ability to explore and utilize the Martian environment efficiently.
The materials of this topic also encourage me: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=11288
"Index» Life support systems» Bogs and Bog, Floating Island Technology, and Roller Solar."
And the materials of this topic also encourage me: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=11299
"Index» Life support systems» Carbon is the New Metal"
Processing the materials of the moons of Mars might make for a very significant level of habitation of the orbits of Mars.
Mass Drivers from the peaks of mountains of Mars may contribute as well as also space elevators might.
I have seen it said that solar power in orbit is about 7 times as good as power on the surface of Earth. For Mars this also might be true.
While in the beginning power might be beamed to the surface of Mars by microwave and laser, it may be that space elevators could carry electrical power.
The Oxygen of the moons of Mars could be to some extent added to the atmosphere of Mars. This may act like a "Carrier Gas". That is similar to Nitrogen where it will not condense on the poles of Mars. This may alter then atmospheric processes of Mars. Where Oxygen may be expelled from mass drivers that may propel ships in orbit of Mars, it might be possible to cause most of it to fall into the atmosphere of Mars to be reused. Oxygen and other substances might be lifted up the space elevators for reuse.
It seems that Mars crossing and Earth crossing asteroids wander in from the asteroid belt. I think it may be possible to alter their orbits to be Ballistically Captured into Mars orbit. Then these would also be processed to produce Oxygen and "Metas" in orbit of Mars.
This actually could happen much faster than many people might presume, because the solar power in orbit of Mars would be very large, and also robots may provide an almost infinite pool of labor to fill the desired results.
So, this could create a world that becomes increasable suitable for surface life, and will have massive amounts of habitat in orbit of the planet.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-02-07 11:20:48)
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#32 2026-02-08 12:07:19
- Void
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Re: Bipolar Mars Terraform Plan
Now, I am convinced that I have a good plan for human expansion to Mars.
We are informed it seems that SpaceX and others intend to add sun synchronous satellites that may be data centers, to their inventory in space.
Now, I think it is relatively likely that the same could be done for Mars. And you don't need a Mass Driver to get materials from Phobos and Deimos.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun-synchronous_orbit
Query: "Can Mars have sun synchronous Satellites?"
Quote:
Yes
Yes, Mars can have sun-synchronous satellites. These satellites would orbit Mars in a way that matches the planet's solar orbit period, ensuring they pass over the same spot on Mars at the same local time every day. This synchronization is particularly useful for missions that require precise timing, such as weather observation or studying the Martian surface.
Wikipedia
+1Wikipedia
Sun-synchronous orbit - Wikipedia
Query: "Can Synchronous Satellites orbit over the polar areas?"
Quote:
Yes
Yes, Sun-synchronous satellites can orbit over the polar areas. These satellites are designed to pass over the same part of the Earth at approximately the same local solar time, which is particularly beneficial for polar monitoring and environmental monitoring. Sun-synchronous orbits are a type of polar orbit, and they are specifically arranged to ensure that the satellite's altitude and inclination are carefully balanced, allowing it to maintain a constant angle with respect to the sun. This results in consistent lighting conditions, which is crucial for applications like Earth observation and environmental monitoring.
So, I presume that power can be beamed to the polar areas of Mars. Either Laser or Microwave. The atmosphere being thin may be a plus. Dust Storms of course would be a minus.
So, rather than melting the ice caps from the outside down, this would melt the icecaps from the inside out to form covered seas and lakes.
Lasers pointed into the ice from the bottom edge can form melt water streams internal to the ice caps. The water running down can fill reservoirs. The reservoirs could host biological activity.
I have suggested the use of Ice Dams, but in many cases the weight of the ice caps has created a dip in the crust surrounding them.
The tunnels left behind after laser melting may have a use, and it can be possible to have habitat in the water or tunneled into the rock below the water basin.
Byproducts of such "Farming" would likely include greenhouse gasses by intention or not.
So, you start with a covered water basin as your first artificial biome, and then expand to a situation where some open water is permitted, when the air pressure is higher.
It may be noted that waste heat can be used to keep the reservoirs melted. Waste heat also could be radiated to the sky to generate electricity.
Water losses will simply freeze out on the ice caps, so they are not permanent water losses.
Eventually even the outside may become terraformed enough to allow some surface life.
In the meantime you would have lots of habitat in orbit with synthetic gravity as well as these reservoirs.
Agricultural methods may be similar to what is mentioned in this topic: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=11288
"Index» Life support systems» Bogs and Bog, Floating Island Technology, and Roller Solar."
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-02-08 12:44:30)
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#33 Yesterday 11:04:18
- Void
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Re: Bipolar Mars Terraform Plan
In this drawing from the previous post, there is a possibility that ice tunnels in ice masses may be able to store air.
I am presuming that lasers starting at the base of an ice mass could melt sideways with a bit of up-angle. On Mars, the gravity is .38 that of Earth and the ice is likely colder than that of Earth's poles. The tendency to sag for such ice tunnels may be lower.
It may also be possible to make braces from Carbon or some other materials to help keep them from sagging. And you may pressurize the tunnels as well, perhaps that would reduce sag.
So, during a global dust storm, presuming orbital power is cut off you would have a major air supply.
You may also be living in rock tunnels that are containing residual heat. They may be down in the rock below either ice or water.
So, then you have heat and Air, and presumably you have stored food, either frozen or dried.
You may have nuclear reactors as well, of course.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I have suggested wind fences made of solar panels in the past. But I also suggest ice pits. That is if you have a body of ice that you can pull water from then you can leave pits that dust might become trapped in.
There are many high latitude ice slabs and some in the mid-latitudes.
https://www.astronomy.com/science/massi … d-on-mars/
Image Quote: 
Quote:
In a study published today in the journal Science, researchers using the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter (MRO) investigated eight steep and eroded slopes (known as scarps) at various locations across Mars. At each of these locations, they found thick shelves of relatively pure water ice located as little as 3.3 feet (1 meter) below the planet’s surface. Furthermore, some of these massive ice deposits were found to be more than 330 feet (100 meters) thick.
Lets imagine a trenching machine that would eat into the ice slab, leaving a trench. Perhaps it would receive power form orbit. It would take the water vapor from the ice and make Oxygen and Hydrogen. Then from the Atmosphere, Oxygen and Carbon. Then Methane. Then if you had pipelines you could transport the methane across planet. Pipes might be of Cast Basalt???
There would be Methane Leakage, but who cares, it is a greenhouse gas.
The trenches could be across the wind patterns or might be serpentine in nature so as to catch dust, and to store it where dust devils cannot suck it up.
So, perhaps this method could over time reduce the dust load available to Global Dust Storms and so altering the climate to be more favorable to human use.
Ending Pending
Here is a cross section drawing of a "Dust Capture Trench".: 
The ice that would be exposed by trenching would need to be covered by some type of suitable materials after the trenching. Perhaps just regolith may do, or maybe a vapor barrier under the soil is desired.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (Yesterday 11:29:58)
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