New Mars Forums

More about data centers in space: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE

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I am guessing they would just expand outward and even to the Moon even with time latency.

There could be a lot of Tesla $$$ in Space and SpaceX $$$ in space.

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It seems the Elon Musk is changing his navigation to point more at the Moon and at data centers in space: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gpp76mV6QTg  Quote:

  I like it.

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This video pleases me, but I feel we need to be careful to only consider it a possible truth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3iitgikldA
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The printing press and the internet may have saved us from the evil of the librarians who exercise power though the selective distribution of the wealth of records.

The Homo Sapiens might chant mindlessly echo of original thoughts, but those with remnants of cousins may have had the ability of building the scaffolds that allowed the cathedrals that the chanting occurs in.

The simplified mind displaces the seed of the originators and leaves only mimics of mind.

I believe that the collapse of empires may rest on this process.

The satanic nature of domination is what drives this.

A curious situation might have occurred if Neanderthals could have consulted the internet.  By then having means of expanded communion, and having methods to share information perhaps they would have survived better.

The contest of efficiency vs. capability.  But if you are capable and yet then become efficient you are improved.  If you become efficient by eliminating capability, then though you may have a satanic win, you are a diminished creature.

Nature does not weep for the dead, it only eats them and provides for new patterns, maybe not intelligent ones.

The partially intentional crimes of the librarians are in not sharing.  But the printing press and the internet bypass their power.

Most of the genome of the Neanderthals apparently exists somewhere on the planet still.  Some in Europe, and even more in India, and other places as well.

It is my guess that Homo Sapiens perhaps took in lost Neanderthal girl children.  Or maybe kept them after murdering the men.
Probably they were mistreated but somehow did have children with the Homo Sapiens males.

But it could have been that Neanderthal females could bear half breed children, and Homo Sapiens could not.  If not genetically determined, it could have been that the Neanderthal babies had too big of heads for the Homo Sapiens females pelvises.

Colleges are the same stupid attempt for a ruling class of mimics to hold a source of knowledge from the workers they seek to dominate.  But the internet says "NO!".

The name of the game is to put dominators over the population.  Then sort the school children into clerks and jerks vs. future servants.

Take the creative inventions and add them to the library which is only selectively available.

A bit dark but maybe true.

The ruling class then puts the Clerks and Jerks into so called white collar jobs, and then they are used to dominate the people who use eyes and hands.

But then the printing press, computers, and robots.

Can't be sure how it ends but it amuses me that the demonic a-holes have their work cut out for them to keep this as they prefer it.  The human race breading for smaller brains all the time.

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Bags of rocks tied together into spheres, or some other shape, I suppose that they could be called "Rock Shells".

From post #6 & #8:

A plurality of Starships could be mounted together into an initial synthetic gravity machine(s)

I feel that this is a precursor to the possibility of building space habitats that are more extensive, such as similar to "Island One" and "O'Neill Cylinders".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Neill_cylinder
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The fact that such concepts came from university types shows that they are not troglodytes that get their hands dirty.  They have a chicken but no egg.  That is I don't see how they will fill this dream from Moon materials only.

But Mars/Phobos/Deimos is almost perfect for a startup.

At first built from components from Earth such as Starships.  Those to be sheltered inside of "Primitive" sheltering methods.

The next step would be to develop methods to make metal sheets in orbit and join them together.  Also to make ceramic type objects.
Probably even then "Rock Bag shelter would be wanted.  Then maybe you could start making more humble habitats such as a modified "Island One".

A string of rock bag shelters could house two or more rotators, which may rotate counter to each other.

If you want sunrooms and greenhouses those are possible but more vulnerable to the hostility of the space environments.

I think it is typical for Americans usually to think in "One Layer" for a wall.  But harsh environments benefit from "multi-layering".

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And yes, my idea, at least in part, descends from this idea: https://newatlas.com/space/space-habitat-ring-plan/
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I prefer the idea of nibbling on Phobos and Deimos and perhaps other rubble piles.  What we see on the surface of a rubble asteroid may not be the same as what is in the interior.  I am inclined to think that there are big slabs of rock inside.

And if there were ice in the interior of Phobos and Deimos we do not what to prematurely expose them.

I think we need to start small scale.  Leave the slabs or work with them, extract and process the fines, and sort the cobble-rocks and put them into rock bags.  Join the "Rock-Bags" into crude shelters for protection of fine equipment and humans.

The Cobble-Rocks can be examined to detect special ones, per minerals, and also source.  Science might want objects that were captured from a young Mars, or from various asteroids over the history of these moons.

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I leave it open as to what portion of people might live on Mars or in the orbits of Mars.  Simply because I do not know accurately many variables such as the true nature of Mars, and the evolution of technical skills that humans and robots might create.

If the moons Phobos and Deimos were taken apart to make shelters and for other resource creation, at first bags of rocks might be the simple outer protective method.  But later those might be processed into other things.

Mirrors might make it possible to grant Mars as much energy as what the Earth has naturally.  I am tempted to think though that Martians may want to preserve ice cap cities.  In that case they would moderate what they would do to Mars.

I am not entirely sure, but I expect that more moons will be created for Mars by capturing asteroids to the planet's orbits.

If a propulsion device were to use Oxygen as propellant, they in the imagination we could fly our Moon to Mars, perhaps?

https://theconversation.com/the-moons-t … ars-170013
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I would consider that to be as silly as most other people.  But two forms of propulsion I can think of do exist.  I do not know how good they are as per efficiency.

1) Mass Driver that expels Oxygen Ice Cubes from the surface of the Moon.
2) Ceramic nozzles that weep Oxygen onto a electrostatic surface to make it cling.  But then a heat source to make the molecules bounce off into space.  Perhaps Lasers or Microwaves.

While I don't actually recommend it for our Moon, I could be done for asteroids that also may have a large Oxygen content in them.

Parking the asteroids into the orbit of a planet may be useful as to reduce the collision hazards (Presuming good works intended and achieved), and more resource into the orbit of a planet.

While it may be that eventually humans will "Hack" human biology and make children grow up "Correctly" according to Earth human bias, or it may be possible to build centrifuges of a very large size on the surface of Mars, it may be easiest to build orbital structures around planets from attainable materials such as asteroids.  It will be much easier for humans that live in orbit of Venus, Earth/Moon, Mars to maintain a communion with each other's than for the humans that live on planetary surfaces to do so.

If I recall correctly from: https://www.youtube.com/@Anthrofuturism

Regolith might be about .5% magnetic Iron.

Then it is easiest to extract the Oxygen from the non-magnetic Iron content, and hardest to extract Oxygen from Calcium.

So processing a rubble pile or other asteroid might create Iron and also Sintered and/or glassy materials. from materials that are hard to reduce.  In this case "Easy Oxygen" would be a major propellant.  Upon arrival to Mars, perhaps the harder Oxygen to extract would be extracted.

If you have spacecraft spewing Oxygen as propellant some of that will likely join the atmosphere of Mars and so, then swell it up.

For instance, if you are thrusting your ship in a prograde direction by expelling Oxygen Ice Cubes, perhaps you could eject them at a retrograde speed so that they have zero orbital speed.  Sunlight would quickly vaporize the Oxygen, but it might still drop down into the atmosphere of Mars if it is quick enough and is not swept away by the solar wind.

So, you could thicken the atmosphere of Mars while propelling spacecraft between orbital architectures.

The mass to energy ratio of mirrors is more favored the closer to the sun the mirror is, but perhaps even out into the outer asteroid belt mirrors may be sufficiently good as power supplies.

Way down the road, Venus might have methods to scoop up atmosphere to Orbit and to expel Oxygen and retain Nitrogen and Carbon.  Then possibly Nitrogen could be brought to Mars.  It sounds expensive, but if you have virtually unlimited robot labor and sunshine, is it necessarily unobtainable?  I think in the distant future it will not be impossible.

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I was killing time somewhere, and used my phone to look some stuff up about Phobos and Demos.

The Claims I read were that Phobos is leaking about 3 grams of water a second, and that Deimos has ice on it's surface in some of it's craters.

Quite contrary to all I have read up until now.  I will attempt to verify this on my computer with similar questions.

Query: "Water on Phobos?"

The claim on my phone is not supported:

Query: "Water on Deimos?"

The claim is not supported but it appears that some suspicion of it exists

Different Query: "Ice inside Deimos?"  It appears that when dealing with computers you need to be more specific!

A bit of support:

My phone indicates that it is suspected that Deimos has ice inside of it which may feed the ice on the surface if there is any.

Query: "Ice inside Phobos?"

Some support:

My phone indicates that water vapor is detected at a rate of an estimated 3 grams per second.

Suggestions of hydrated minerals and Carbon are in this article: https://academic.oup.com/mnras/article/ … 65/6660653
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I will risk a little bit and say that some reports indicate a less gifted set of moons as per desired substances.  While excessive optimism should be avoided, we have to be aware of the "Verbal Idiot Savants".

They are a predator and if others of other talents are contained on a plantation, then those are slave class of farm animals as true function, unless the awaken to the deceptions that may be used to make a prison for the mind.

For instance I have been told that slaves in the US states that allowed it were told that if they escaped the Indians would kill them.  That was not always true.  Perhaps not very much true.  I believe that American slavery was to some degree an import from old cultures that supported it that got taken over by "Verbal Idiot Savants" around the 13th century.

So, as we were told that our Moon was bone dry, (Whatever that means), we could be receiving insufficient or faulty information on the moons of Mars.  But perhaps they will be deficient in Hydrogen and Carbon after all.  We probably should find out.

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Bags of rocks tied together into spheres, or some other shape, I suppose that they could be called "Rock Shells".

From post #6:

A plurality of Starships could be mounted together into an initial synthetic gravity machine(s)

Thie could possibly work for the average rubble pile.  433 Eros and 25143 Itokawa which are considered to be stony, and Ryugu, and Bennu, which are considered to be carbonaceous.  In addition, we have the two Mars moons Phobos and Deimos.

In addition to establishing such shelters, but we may hope also to do as suggested in previous posts and establish refilling stations between the Earth/Moon and the location of 2.1 AU the inner edge of the asteroid belt.

Stony asteroids seem to have more water than 0%.  Carbonaceous asteroids have considerably more.  Also, the have some Carbon and perhaps a bit of Nitrogen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-type_asteroid
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Small Asteroids found: https://www.nasa.gov/solar-system/aster … roid-belt/

So, a span of about 1.1 AU may accommodate this.

At 2.0 AU the sunlight will be 1/4 that of for Earth/Moon.

Mirrors then need to be perhaps >4 times as large at 2.0 AU than for 1.0 AU.  These then may be shined on either solar panels of heat engines.

In the case where the disassembly of a rubble asteroid will reveal 1 or more large slabs of rocks, additional bags of small rocks and metal fixtures could allow the formation of very large caves in which protections from the most harsh aspects of space could be made available.

Of course, Mars/Phobos/Deimos are about in the center of the span of 1.0 to 2.1 AU.

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To relate the previous post to the idea of Mirrors, I might suggest that if you had a Mirror production process with electric generators of some kind, you might retain them while you were further from the sun but release some of them as you got closer to the sun.  They then might navigate to various purposes such as supplying the refilling stations.  In fact, as such a device might have a lifetime, they might arrive at a refilling station and the Mirror be rendered into propulsion materials.

I have already suggested putting cobble sized rocks into chicken-wire enclosures to provide radiation shielding.  Perhaps "Pillows" of such might be joined to make a double walled enclosure.  If you don't like chicken-wire, then perhaps screening would suite your desires or a cloth of some kind.  Ribs of simple types of steel or iron might also be used in the structure.

OK a ring or "Regolith Pearls" then, orbiting 433 Eros:

You could have synthetic gravity machines inside of them.  You could anchor solar power devices on their exteriors.

You might classify your materials into Slabs, Cobbles, and Dirt.  The Cobbles you might examine individually for useful metal content.  The Dirt you might process into resources.  The Slabs you might fashion into shelter structures using metal fixtures, rock anchors, and perhaps metal bands or cables.

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Because NASA has been focused on finding alien life, perhaps we do not know as much about other aspects of Mas such as Phobos and Deimos.  I am not complaining.  We do have some information after all.  But we really cannot get as final for plans of how to settle Mars/Phobos/Deimos as might be desired.  We can speculate on options at this point, supposing various possible actual conditions.

There are several other topics that could have materials that can become tributary to this topic:

Index» Terraformation» Robot Worlds:
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=11221

Index» Terraformation» Rubble Pile Sinter/Glass Jar:
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 30#p234730

Index» Science, Technology, and Astronomy» Asteroid/off-Earth mining:
Calliban has a good post: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 26#p235126
VOID interferes: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 36#p235136

As I see it, unless Phobos and Deimos have the materials, to get lots of stuff, we might want to follow Callibans advice.
Of course I will modify it.

Unless we want to go to the trouble of accessing major icy asteroids at about 3.0 AU, going after "Crumb" asteroids might be a good way to go.

I would modify the capture device from a bag to a cone shaped canister.  The reason for this would be that as your system "Digested" asteroid crumbs, periodically it could expand it's size.

The cone would not be intended to hold high air pressures, but to work with low air pressures.

Like a sea creature in a shell, it would expand the perimeter of the cone and the Base Door, as materials became available from previously processed bits of asteroid.

I am hoping that a gyrotron such as may be used to drill hydrothermal wells can turn the materials into dust.  This may release volatile substances as gasses. Water vapor is hoped for, and this may reduce Iron in the materials if Hydrogen were repeatedly added to the Gyrotron beam.

Even though the pressures within may be rather low, the seal on the "Base Door" will matter, I expect and will be a problem to solve.

As far as collecting the released volatiles perhaps a cold trap will do.  Water collected would be split into Hydrogen and Oxygen and then the Hydrogen added back to the Gyrotron Beam.

Dust collected could be magnetically separated to yield a high and low Iron content.

Methods of propulsion would be desired.  I presume an electric power supply to be present that is not shown in the cone drawing.

One method of propulsion I am hoping to try for would have LOX pushed though the pores of a ceramic 'Nozzle" and a laser beam to convert the LOX into a hot gas.  The hope is to not erode the Ceramic Nozzle too fast.

Alternately Oxygen could be made into frozen pellets and ejected by Mass Driver, to give thrust.

Alternately if good enough Iron were available, it could be used in either a Neumann Driver or MagDrive propulsion system.

Alternately magnetic dust could be ejected using an on-board mass driver.

I do not favor bringing the processed materials exclusively to Earth/Moon, but to supply refilling stations in solar orbits that spacecraft can visit.

In "Robot Worlds" I have this illustration: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 47#p235047
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My presumption is that most traffic by tonnage will be solar electric in nature.  So, having refill stations in circular solar orbits will make sense.  The harvesting of materials from small asteroids most proximate to one of these orbits may make sense.

If this method is developed it could then be extended into the Asteroid belt which apparently has many small asteroids, only now detected.
https://www.nasa.gov/solar-system/aster … roid-belt/
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So, a continuous replenishment, may be occuring.

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Mirrors might be used in space propulsions, and of course to make spots on the Moon more supportive of human efforts.  I will probably return to those later.

I think for Mars of course they could be very important.  Many spots of Mars may be economically preferred, but with Mirrors, I think the polar ice caps and the surrounded terrain will be attractive.

It is possible that the North Ice Cap would be the earlier target, as during global dust storms, it may be a source of cold while Hellas would be a source of heat to start up the global dust storm.  Not sure of that but it is a maybe.

Active solar robots which could poise on the polar surfaces, could receive both normal summer sunlight and winter time light projected from orbital mirrors.  Masses of ice represent situations where the harvesting of water will also provide a sort of shelter from some of the harsh features of Mars, such as radiation and thermal variations.

Rather than melting the ice cap from the top down, you would make it into a Swiss cheese of tunnels in the ices.  Tunnels and vaults maintained at perhaps -10 to -20 degrees C would make the tunnels suitable to certain types of robots and of some use to humans as well.

Using heat pumps, a minority of space could be kept warm for human comfort.

It is possible that orbital mirrors could be in part built from materials of Phobos and Deimos.

The input of sunlight to the north ice cap in winter from mirrors may reduce the power of the engine that runs global dust storms.

The Solar Robots on the polar surfaces would likely be vertical and perhaps light orienting and may have legs or robot assistant that can help reposition them.

Methane and Oxygen could be manufactured in massive amounts and shipped by pipelines all around the planet, making it more habitable.  Methane leaks will help in warming the planet.  At any location with energy CO2 could be split to yield Oxygen and Methane piped in could be reacted with the Oxygen to produce water.

Later the South Polar Ice Cap might be treated in a similar manner.

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OK, let's have a look at this:

I am going to imagine targeting multiple locations on the planet.

Greenland: https://www.bing.com/maps/search?FORM=H … .3&style=r

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view … t=0&sim=11
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Many places in the North and also Chile have Fjord: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fjord

Greenland and some other places have Fjords and ice caps.  Mirrors from orbit could help keep a Fjord open year around, and also support an OTEC-Like operation for power and fresh water.  Evaporation may be expected to fall as more snow to the ice cap in many cases depending on winds, I suppose.  Plankton will be stimulated as well.

By lifting water vapor to the ice caps the ocean levels are reduced.  (But of course you do not want to stimulate the melting of flowing glaciers.

This might also be done to refresh glaciers in mountains also, and even if we become desperate this could be done in Antarctica.

We can also suppose that some of the organic activity will deposit into deep cold water with the brine, and will be sequestered for thousands of years, reducing CO2 in the atmosphere.

Arctic Ocean: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_Ocean
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In the spring and fall, these mirrors might be diverted to protect crops from untimely frosts.

New glaciers could probably be forced into existence with this process.  Glaciers can cease to exist due to melting or from insufficient snowfall.

So Glaciers might be enhanced or created with this method.

And this might be important for the western coastal mountain glaciers of the America's.

OTEC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_the … conversion

https://ar.inspiredpencil.com/pictures- … ergy-plant
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Where OTEC was already anticipated, light from mirrors might warm the water even more than it naturally is.

I do have sympathy for major observatories.  They have to be considered.

And we should be making more telescopes in space and perhaps on the Moon.

The Mirrors may help pay for those telescopes or at least stimulate the rockets that can do both mirrors and telescopes.

Working with America's Greate Basin?

https://legacy.climas.arizona.edu/blog/ … agers.html

Image Quote: https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.8d5aaee8022 … ImgRaw&r=0

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Basin
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Causing increased evaporation off the coast of California, mostly could lead to more snowfal into the inland mountains.  Then the snow melted may in part be sent into the Great Basin.

My recollections are that once water gets into the Great Basin it falls as precipitation about 7 times before departing.

If lakes form inside of the Basin and are salty, they might be evaporated by mirror light, so that water will move as vapor inland even more.
Of course you could have solar panels on top of water as well, to help maintain inland lakes, and to collect power.

This would to some degree reduce the ocean levels.

Ending Penging

If you can tolerate it I will post in reply.  Let me know if I should be less active.

Your post makes sense.  I think proactively removing threats to Earth and eventually other planets, has a value of its own.  Turning the materials into useful retrievable resources while doing science on them also would have value.

I have learned things from many sources such as you and also the anthrofuurism site: https://www.youtube.com/@Anthrofuturism

They have recently done a post about pyrolysis on the Moon, in some cases using Hydrogen.

My creativity if I have any is typically in combining things, which is a low-level type, but don't turn down a dump truck full of Nickles.

This morning I am looking at Pyrolysis with Hydrogen, using the Quaise Gyrotron.

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https://eepower.com/news/gyrotron-techn … l-energy/#
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So, this might go in two directions.  I think it might be possible to extract Oxygen from a Quaise well, by injecting Hydrgen while drilling.  Then water vapor would come out of the well.  But only the easy Oxygen would come out But this would open space in the well.  However, the Iron and other reduced materials, may corrode later so I am not sure it is a good idea.  But a bit interesting.

Thes small objects you have posted about could be rubble or they may be boulders in some cases.

But the Quaise drill might process both.  But you need a good container to retain Hydrogen.  Of course, if you squirted Hydrogen gas onto the hot spoils from the "Drill" you should get water.  Water is easier to retain.

There is more than one method to spilt water, I think, into Oxygen and Hydrogen.  Electrolysis or some sort of a plasma process.  Perhaps a Plasma Reactor method might work: https://www.science.org/content/article … xygen-mars

If we suppose that the typical asteroid materials are more like the Moon, but perhaps a little like Bennu or Ryugu, then we might hope to extract the "Easy" Oxygen, such as is bonded to Iron, and might expel it as propellant.  Iron also might be expelled as propellant, after a magnetic separation. In such a case, the grains would not be likely to be pure iron but a composite of reduced Iron and other materials.

The drill method, perhaps will pulverize the rock to dust or make it into glass.  Perhaps some of each.

What would be left would be partially reduced, so some Oxygen would remain.  and a reduction in Oxygen mass would occur.

With a good process, we might accumulate more Hydrogen than what would be lost.  This is because the parent bodies of these "Rocks" may have had some water, or hydrated minerals, and the solar wind may have injected protons into dusty materials.

But a reasonably good container would be needed.

While I have been interested in a mass driver that would expel Oxygen, I might also suggest, that if we had a ceramic capacitor plate that we "Wetted" with a small Oxygen flow then a high energy pulse from a Laser might cause it to be expelled with significant force.

What do you think?

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