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If Stoke Space is successful with it's upper stage, I say again that SpaceX should work with them to make a second form of "Starship" a Hydro-Lox one.

https://www.stokespace.com/nova/
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I would be interested in a version with a broader base, that could be used on the Moon.  Without the Heat Shield.

It is Hydro-Lox and it begins to seem that the Moon has much more water than was supposed.

What if you made a Hydro-Lox tanker out of it, to transport water up to an orbital Starship?

If the Starship has brought some Carbon with it, then you can completely refill the Starship in Lunar Orbit.

Pause...........

I think that with a broader base relative to height, it might be good as landings on the Moon without topple.

I would expect that Starships would also land on the Moon at times.

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An interesting feature is that if you made the base broad enough the Hydro-Lox engines could be firing even from ground zero while the Superheavy was firing it's engines.  That might mean less gravity losses on the way up.  Hopefully this would not damage the Superheavy.

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I think this can fit into the previous post: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE
Project Athena Explained: Cancelling SLS and Repurposing Gateway as a Nuclear-Powered Space Tug
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Space Startup News
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A nuclear-electric tug or nuclear at all would be interesting.  A Starship with a Nuclear Tug could do some interesting things.

I think it would be nice to have some Hydro-Lox engines.  But Blue Origin, ULA, and Stoke Space can provide newer versions of that.

I think the Stoke Space upper stage could be rather good for the Moon, to work with Starships both on the surface and in Orbit.

A Stoke Space upper stage supersized, might ride up on Superheavy, and be brought to the Moon.

It could have a very broad footprint, and the plume being more distributed may be more compatible with landing on regolith with lots of small materials.  And it is Hydro-Lox, and might serve as a tanker to bring Oxygen up to a Lunar depot(s) for Starship.

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An aspect of the schemes I have recently posted about is that while some have considered Mass Drivers that send packages to a recipient, and some have considered Mass Drivers that eject mass for propulsion, these schemes can do both.

But it can also involve tethers.  I like multiple tethers so that repairs might be made if one is damaged.  Some tethers can be for strength, some for electrodynamic interaction with magnetic fields and some could be transporting pathways for payloads.

This cuts space elevator concepts into pieces which I think may be practical before any world-based device may become practical.

If this were done with ideal efficiency, then you could imagine it as a pipeline where a fluid flowing down would help to lift a fluid flowing up.

Pause for a drawing:

In an imaginary world, the Earth and Moon are liquified and parallel pipelines exchange materials.  Turbines help propel this process, if you push Moon materials down then the turbines push Earth materials up.  But of course the Earth has the much greater gravity well.

From the previous post, quote:

So, if you land a payload from the Moon and a payload from the Earth on the "Base" of this device, and then propel the Earth sourced one towards the Moon and the Moon sourced one towards the Earth, then you may have dome something similar to the above drawing.

I know some have talked about snatching payloads up using tethers and hooks, and that is fine for them if they can make it work, but I have this for now.  I am presuming relatively efficient Electric Rockets to go get payloads after they have been "Ejected" and then to move them to the next device up or down in the gravity well.

There is a way to add a pendulum to this system to help the process, but for now we have something which can be thought about at least.

https://www.youtube.com/@Anthrofuturism has some very nice videos, this one deals with Mass Drivers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxCllBtojds

They decide to work with a one-ton payload as a sort of guess that may be close to good.  If they can make it work then perhaps it would work on the "Omega Rings" instead of what I proposed.

Elon Musk has seemed to indicate that he visualizes making Satellites on the Moon and projecting them to orbits using a Mass Driver of some sort.

So, while I was thinking of a system that would project a spaceship it has to be realized that a one-ton payload would be a better thing to try.  If the Ton-Device had solar power and a transmitter of some kind, then after a toss, it could be retrieved by an electric rocket and put to the next toss device to be tossed again.

Material tossed from the Moon "Down" in the Earth's gravity well would lift the toss-device up in that gravity well.  But if you had loaded a payload to toss "Up" in the Earth's gravity well, you might approach an approximately "Null" altitude change.

It may be that there will be ideal orbits where it makes sense to move materials to from each world.  Possibly geosynchronous, maybe a bit lower.

Obviously if you can get a mass driver to work on the Moon to toss the 1-Ton devices, then you have a power supply by dropping loads down in the Earth's gravity well and then you may to some degree use that energy to lift materials in the Earth's gravity well to higher orbits, if Starship can get them up at least to LEO or maybe even just  a bit lower in a temporary orbit.

And of course we want Hydrogen and Carbon from the Earth, and lots of mass from the Moon.  But it appears that China has reason to believe that the Moon has much more water than was previously supposed.

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Good for China.

I can excuse them tooting their own horn.  I don't know that they found new things, but they do have additional information.  Also they seem to have discovered more of everything.

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … df9dbe3dfa
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In my opinion contact with East Asia and Russia and perhaps the Nordics has a favorable result for the peoples who we claim like freedoms.

It is a count balance to the Verbal and Violent processes that center on the Middle East, and project even into Christianity to some extent.

I believe that the same was true when Europeans encountered the native peoples of the Americas.

But China and Japan will not collapse as much.  I do not hate Christian culture itself, but the elites of Christian nations turn out the lights, eat the brains.  Not that China And Japan are without fault and not in need of exterior inputs, but contact between the groups can produce value in my opinion.

We may have Japan with us more closely, but we also may find graceful balance with China and Russia and others on the Moon.

After all the surface of the Moon is about the size of North and South American I believe.  And the solar system is some much more vast.

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An alternative to a "Spin-Tars" would be a double ended tether system in orbit.  Perhaps even an electrodynamic tether.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrodynamic_tether
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At this time, I think the Earth's magnetic field extends out to maybe a bit more than geosynchronous.

In this case rather than spinning a big tank of water, you might have it as a landing pad at the middle of the structure.

You would have a tether extended towards the Earth and one extended away from the Earth.

In this case the Tank of water could be in connection with solar power devices, and could host data centers, human and robot habitat, farming, and other features.  The Tank of water would be made as a radiator and radiation protection.

Poised well above space junk of LEO, we may hope to preserve tethers well enough to use them for extended periods.

A spacecraft landing on the Tank of water could proceed to the end of either tether and gain thrust in the direction of that tether.

If Electrodynamic Tethers are used the whole assembly can be raised or lowered in orbit. Depending on desires.

Something like this from post #16 might better apply: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 93#p235293
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So, you would just hang tethers in both directions off from the tank.

You could do this outside of the Earth's magnetic field, but then you would not do the electrodynamic parts of the scheme.
You might use an electric ion thrust, hopefully Neumann Drive or Magdrive will do.

I think that we do have a NASA problem as expressed by utube video presenters.  They are still in the 20th century.  While I think we may need to burn Hydrogen and Oxygen from the Moon at times when necessary, we should prefer not to.

Water can give endless service to space needs including propulsion, in some situations.

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The last few posts from yesterday, deal with T.A.R.S. Specifically, "Water Tank TARS".

Water is used not only for it's inertia, but for radiation shielding, data center cooling, and agriculture, at least.

This morning, I have a scheme that involves at least 3 bases associated with the Moon:
1) Polar
2) Lower Latitude minerals (Platinum Family are hoped for).
3) Lunar orbital of some kind, where TARS will be developed.

This would involve a process to capture Oxygen and Iron and other substances from the Moon, to build things and to export.
I would also involve the import to base #3 primarily of Paraffin Wax.  I choose Paraffin Wax as it can be used as a fuel but also would be important in evolving resources from Lunar Materials.  It is also a relatively inert substance and also can provide radiation shielding.

At all 3 bases it may be possible to process an Iron concentrate using Paraffin Wax, or Hydrogen.

While it could be done in Base 1, it would be done with Lunar Hydrogen if possible.  From https://www.youtube.com/@Anthrofuturism , I get information that the Hydrogen can be used repeatedly and even should accumulate as more Hydrogen, presuming some Hydrogens in the regolith to process.

If we want some types of Iron or Steel, we might import some Carbon to Base #1 or find it on the Moon, perhaps dry ice at the poles.
This process would also produce Oxygen for breathing and for refilling spacecraft at base #1.  Base #1 may not target magnetic Iron, but more the larger quantity of non-magnetic Iron.

But Base #2 would target magnetic Iron, and use magnetics to pluck it out of the Lunar Regolith Dust.  It is estimated that about .5% of the materials will be magnetic Iron.  However, even if concentrated, it will have other materials bonded to it.  This is actually a good thing.  Some of it would be Magnetite which has some Oxygen in it.  Others may be simply substances that are stuck to small fragments of magnetic Iron.  Base #2 would export this concentrate to the orbital Base #3.  We are also hoping for some kind of a processing of Platinum Family Metals from Base #2 which can be exported after some processing to Base #3.

I am going to set processing for Platinum Family Metals aside for now.  I am not sure if you would be able to use microbes to extract it from it's ores or some other method.

But now for the Iron Concentrate, we will react it with Paraffin imported from Earth and do Pyrolysis in orbit to produce a reduction extracting much of the Oxygen that is bonded to both magnetic Iron and some small amount of non-magnetic Iron that may have come along with the magnetic Iron.  This will produce a reduced concentrate and Water and CO2.  Some Carbon may infiltrate the reduced concentrate.  The water and CO2 can be processed to produce various things, perhaps Methane to refill a Starship.

We will hope to accumulate liquid water in large amounts over time to build a "Water Tank Tars".

Our reduced Iron concentrate then can be processed to produce Iron, and Carbon Steel.  If we import alloy agents, we can make other types of steel.

The Slag can be processed to make things.

One thing I would like produced would be heat shields, using Steel and fibers of Slag.  Putting an ablative layer of slag product over a metal heat shield.

From post #17 of this topic:

The cylinder is imagined to be a Starship "Locomotive", which is its tanks, engines, and whatever else it needs.  It has multiple tanks so that
it can carry various balances of fluid substances.

It then has a "One Time" heat shield attached to it that was made in orbit from Lunar Materials and some of the Carbon from the Paraffin that was imported.

The desire is to send this back to Earth to do one or more skims of the Earth's atmosphere to achieve a Lower Earth Orbit.

At this "Lower Earth Orbit" what remains of the heat shield is to be reprocessed for the production of alternate resources in orbit of the Earth/Moon locations.  The device may also bring "Platinum Family Metals" back as well.  In some of its tanks it might have extra Oxygen.

The "Locomotive" with heat shield detached will have protected Paraffin blocks added to it's outside.  It may have a lot of extra Methane added to it.  Perhaps to get to Lunar Orbit, it would have 3 tanks of Methane and one tank of Oxygen.

The back and forth of this can be assisted by both electric Rocket and Tars.  If fact TARS that is "Spun Up" by electric rocket propulsions.

Early versions of Tars could include tethers to fling the ship in the direction of intentions.

Some TARS might be powered by an Argon/Xenon mix.  But I am hoping that Lunar Tars can be "Spun-Up" using Neumann Drive or Magdrive.

In making a "Water-Tank-Tars", keep in mind that a great deal of the Mass may come from the Moon.

https://brainly.com/question/51013885
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At first the metal part of a water TARS could be made from water filled Starship bodies lashed together.  Later we would hope to make suitable metals in orbit of the Moon to construct much larger TARS.

Later we may also hope to get Hydrogen from sources beyond the Earth and Moon.

So, then after the first Lunar TARS is created, we might seek to make more of them at sequentially lower Earth orbits, so that the Locomotives can both be refilled and repeatedly flung up or down in Earth Orbits.

I am hoping that these filling stations will be refilled, by Neuman Drive or MagDrive robots, perhaps using Iron as a propellant.

So, the more TARS you make then less chemical propulsion you need to move the Locomotive around.

And as I have said the heat shields being in a large part of Iron/Steel, may be feedstock at LEO for the movement or resources to these filling stations by a efficient means.

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Bob Dylan Composed: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=VAMGZC
https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=VAMGZC
Lyrics: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Bob%20Dyl … 28FE931B19

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OK, add this to the just prior post: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA1PNKJL  Quote:

Well then can we make them into spin propelled TARS, using Electric Ion Propulsions?

Do it!

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These are the tricks we need for Mars and Venus and other worlds.

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As far as I am concerned the new awakening of space exhibited by the recent claimed sayings of Elon Musk on behalf of Tesla and SpaceX, are a sort of Para-terraform of the Earth/Moon subsystem.  We can attach a few Near-Earth Objects as well, such as Bennu and Ryugu.  Of course I expect that others including Japan will participate.

I think I want to bring in some materials from another topic: "Index» Interplanetary transportation» Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other."
Post #195 & #196 of that topic: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 52#p235252

And from post #196 for this one:

This then moves to include electric rockets.  The stubborn will not want to accept Neumann Drive or MagDrive yet, so let's entertain more conventional Ion Drives until those can be better proven.

From post #4 of this topic, I have entertained a system of concentric orbital refilling stations: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 78#p235178
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The diagram suggests Solar Orbits but now let's consider 3 concentric ring orbits of the Earth between the Earth and Moon.

I believe that best case for electric rockets is thought to be 10x (Approximately) that of the best chemical rockets.
To be more realistic, being familiar with how reality actually works, lets expect 5x what the best chemical rockets can produce.  It is an arbitrary number, but I do understand that in real life we do not typically get a "Best Case".

A problem with electric rockets is the inertia of their power plants.  But we are going to hope that we can beam power form relatively stationary power stations to these Electric Ion propellant transfer depots.  The mobile propellant depots will have special tuned solar cells that can receive at about 60% efficiency a tuned beam from a relatively stationary solar power plant in an Earth/Moon orbit.

>>>>>

I also suggest adding a sort of T.A.R.S. to this scheme.

https://www.space.com/technology/spacec … -heres-how
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If you have two ships, one being from a Higher Earth Orbit and one being from a Lower Earth Orbit, they could both land in the center of a spinning TARS, and be ejected down slides sequentially.

First the one from a higher orbit might be ejected in the direction of a lower orbit, and then as the spinning station would have it's orbit modified, we would want to correct it back again somewhat but releasing the one from a lower orbit to a higher orbit.

The slide thing was given a patent a long time ago.  I do not have the reference at this time.

While it might complicate things, a massive object in orbit such as a power station, data center, or habitat might double as a TARS.

Caliban did introduce us to TARS.

I would prefer an Electric Ion propelled TARS.

So, a mass in space could be spun using Electric Ion and even its power plant is part of the mass that stores energy.

So, the big hope is that this network of "Filling Stations" with TARS, would facilitate the movement of Moon and Earth materials between LEO and the Moon.  And if someone can make a Lunar Mass Driver or Rotavator system that can get materials into Lunar orbit, then all the better.

A TARS could be many things.  A Filling Station?  A big tank of water?  A power station?  Maybe a mix of things.

So, then I do suggest that it be investigated if other electric propulsion methods will work other than say Argon/Xenon.

Neumann Drive, MagDrive.  And then is there a way to simply fling Oxygen at a high speed as a propellant, probably using electric power.

I do not like using Hydrocarbons as propellants more than is necessary.

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I was actually groomed at one point to be an office worker in my job in the mines, and also again at my more recent job, but in that case more of a tech almost not union worker.  (I had to be in a union to have that job).

I mention this to temper the impression that I hate white collar workers.  I might dislike some of them but the same is true for other people as well. 

The only bad part of white-collar work was the idea of class structure interfering with upward mobility.

I have thought some more about the small brain homo-sapiens vs. the larger brained homo-neanderthals.  And the Hybrids of that.

We had several era's.  The beginning of civilizations may have more included Neanderthal traits of creativity.  Then the mimics displaced those people.  Mimics are those who can imitate something well enough.  But they cannot as much create something that did not yet exist.  Once the mimics have claimed enough power and wealth, a civilization will fall or become susceptible to a conquest by outsiders.

The invention of Library, made it more possible for Mimics to more completely displace the creative.  The ruling class could gain assistance from the librarians (Priests), and so have powers of the mind that they did not have to work for.  To be such a ruler though you have to be persuasive in language, to get others to do the kind of violence you need to apply in order to stay in power.  So, this creates a sort of "idiot Savant" specialist.  A "Verbal & Violence Idiot Savant".

Inventions such as Library are then held by the ruling class of kings and priests, I suppose.

But the printing press was not extinguished in the west, but was in the Ottoman Empire.  The reformation resulted in the west.

The English grabbed a piece of a church.  Called it Anglican, and behaved quite a lot like the Roman Church.  Lots of blood over all that.
To be in the English gentry, you had to go to the colleges which taught you dead languages, and placed you into the more upper class.
The unwanted were excluded and so then tended to form various protestant sects.  They were not allowed to own the plantations.  So they could be servants or invent the industrial revolution.

This gives a special reference to "Greens".  It is indeed the elites that mostly would like to have us back shaveling pony poop in their plantation barns.  They always hated industry.

But Hydrocarbons loved us Morlocks.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morlock
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Sadly, the Eloi have not lost the power of speech yet.  If he brings her home she will probably start telling him what to do.   And he might obey.

Anyway we have the internet now which expands things much beyond the printing press.  (Others have said this).

Computers and Robots?  I am not sure how that ends.

Anyway, a Neanderthal Mind inheritor will have the internet to get reference from, and can seek to expand the craft with creativity we might hope.

Now if you look on a map you can see where the poor are.  They are primarily where Library is restricted to the few.  And in some cases all but a few books have been burned.

So here is my complaint.  If a bunch of people want to continue to run about in bed sheets, and play the mimic game with a limited library, are we responsible if they are poor?  If they refuse to modify their cultures to resemble successful cultures with material goods, should they be allowed to jealous of the material goods?  If they refuse to modify their behaviors are the allowed to slander us and claim that we owe them material goods?

I grew up in an era where multiple sources insisted that I was part of various criminal activities that hurt people around the world.  I am not amused at the suffering they inflicted on me.  And I have little sympathy for those mimics who seek to enslave the productive among us.

They need to change their cultures.  The only way they became rich is by the uses of "Verbal and Violence" to confiscate things that the creative had built on their lands.  Granted that is the way of the world.  One group cannot take everything.  It won't be allowed.

But I pronounce myself NOT GUILTY!  And they are GUILTY!

More of us should think this way.

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I think that CO2 heat pumps on the Moon may be very important for Data Centers on the Moon.

https://www.youtube.com/@Anthrofuturism claims that heat engines on the Moon are not that good compared to solar panels.

But if you could get solar power and use CO2 heat pumps to make radiators hot, you might produce desired cold for Data Centers.

while solar power might be gotten on the Moon, it is also possible to have power plants in orbits that beam power down to the Moon.  This it seems can be beamed as lasers that point to a tuned solar panel that is not too bad for energy transfer.

But the Moon may provide both energies to run data centers and also to produce cooling by use of heat pumps to rev up the radiators to radiate heat off of the heat exchanger structures.

I think that using heat pumps and sunshades cooling will be available for the purpopse.

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More from the previous post:

The projection for "Expendable" Starship is 250 tons to LEO at this time.

If you could pioneer a Lunar Starboat, and devote 150 Tons to that, then you have 100 more tons that you could devote to other equipment.

In this scheme, you would have 500 extra Tons.  Three hundred for two Lunar Starboats, if you want that.  And 200 for either then Dual Fairings Assembly or the two (Or one) Locomotives.

The dual fairings assembly could get 100 tons of that, to make it more habitable.  As a gravity simulator, it would have up to 1 g at each nose and be able to simulate lesser gravity at other decks closer to the center of spin.  As it is not very cylindrical, I hope it will not have gyroscopic problems with flipping about.

Probably these should be a bit above LEO, to avoid space junk.

On the other hand, if you wanted to use the fairings for propellants for a Neumann Driver or Magdrive you could.  In that case you could shift the 100 tons to some other purpose.

As for the Locomotives, I have some ideas.  For instance one might not be modified very much but reused as a booster. For the other one.
The other one might be strongly modified.  It might have more than two tanks and it might be made to reduce boiloff.

This dual system might allow the built-up Locomotive to be a liquids transport.  To lift off of the Earth, the Starship need the normal Methane and Oxygen tanks.

But to use with the Moon you might want at least 3 tanks, maybe 4 tanks.  So to lift off of Earth two tanks might be for Methane and two for Oxygen.  Of course this will add mass to the Locomotive, but we have budgeted perhaps 50 + 50 = 100 tons for that reason.  I would hope that 50 goes to the new tanks, and 50 goes to boiloff protection.  Plus the Engine may need legs if it is to repeatedly land on the Moon.

To land and lift off from the Moon, the Locomotive may only need 1 Methane Tank and 1 Oxygen tank.  That would leave one or two tanks unused.  In one possibility, the one or two tanks would carry Methane down to the Moons surface.  After good purging the one or two tanks could bring Lunar Oxygen up to Lunar Orbit.

Methane brought down could be used not only to refill rockets but in processing metals like Iron from Lunar Regolith.

The Carbon could become a working gas for heat pumps or maybe even heat engines (Probably not heat engines), and the Hydrogen could be used repeatedly to extract Oxygen from Iron, and to so produce Iron.

Yes, you are intending to get water and even CO2 from the shadowed craters, but this starts the process up before you can hatch that chicken from your egg.

And the Locomotive can be used to transport fluids to other locations on the Moon such as craters that may have platinum family metals you want to mine.

These things might also transport a mix of Argon with a little Xenon, for electric propulsions.

On the Moon you might build Ablative Heat Shields to put on these Locomotives.  One time use, simple.

Although you could then land the Locomotives on to Earth, I would prefer to also have the option to guide them into a lower Earth orbit .

Pause for a drawing....

The reason to want to capture it to Lower Earth Orbits is to distribute LOX from the Moon, and the heat Shield is a source of resources also as it could be processed into Structure or Propellants.

There is already chatter about metals being placed into the atmosphere by space junk.  I suggest that the Space Junk be removed to LEO uses.

It is possible that by burning a layer off of these heat shields we can cool the atmosphere, but we don't know. that yet.

It can be noticed that the heat shield can be rather large.  The larger it is to some extent the lower the temperatures it will endure.  Except if it has very large mass, in which case it brings energy of inertia and gravitational accelerating with it.

The method to move this engine from Lunar orbit to Lower Earth orbit could also include Neumann Drive or Magdrive methods.

So prior to implementing something like a mass driver on the Moon, I hope for gainful extraction of usable mass from the Moon.

I guess we will find out if we are still here in the future.

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Some blab about drone ships: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE
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I am guessing that for Superheavy, drone ships could increase payload 20% to 25% maybe.
I am not sure that it is particularly as useful for Starship.  Starship technically could land on enhanced peg-legs near the launch site.
It if was an orbital Starship, then landing downrange is not so much of an advantage.

I think that it might be possible to make a "Catch-Only" land-based tower as well.  It would not need propellant systems, and could be perhaps half as high???

But yes, a sea-launch capability from the Equator would eventually become very valuable as well.

I think that people forget as well that the ships using raptor engines can do a true hover.  Falcon 9 does a "Hover-Slam".

I am also hearing blab about a single raptor engine 3rd stage for Starship which would ride inside the Starship fairings.

I think this block diagram could suggest what you could get out of that, if you made the Starships Expendable/Not-Really, and had 3rd Stages.

I would expect that the Superheavy could be reusable.

A locomotive could become a depot that is self-propelled.  They could be stacked and used as boosters in LEO or higher as well.  They also might be able to land on the Moon if given legs.

The Fairings could simply pop off of the Locomotives and be joined together to make prescribable space.

The Starboats could be suitable for the Moon or perhaps eventually versions may be able to land on Earth or Mars.

A Starboat might host a one-way probe to other planets and might use the Locomotive as a booster from LEO, to the Moon.  At the Moon, the Locomotive would perhaps detach and brake to orbit or circle around the Moon to go back to Earth, or land on the Moon.  The probe would go it's own way.

Honestly I think it may be that NASA is worried at how much the Starship system will be able to do, when it is fully fledged.

We should worry also that there could be some intention to be careless, so that a death could excuse a posture of recapture of the space activities and the crippling of them.  There is a lot of money interest in these things.

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I guess I will piggy-back this to here: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA1Pr3XW  Quote:

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They don't give a temperature limit though sadly.  Of course, I am hoping that a spacecraft may be abel to use it.

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