Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots

Void · 2025-10-28 20:27:00

This gal really is a negative Nellie. But I respect that, these questions need asking and answering. But she should not be judging absolutely prior to discussion.

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE Quote:

Startup Raised Tens of Millions of Dollars for Giant Mirrors in Space for Light on Demand
YouTube
Gabriel Torch
107 views

Who owns space? Not you. You also do not own me or what I might want to do. But we do have to establish common methods of living.

https://www.space.com/space-exploration … tastrophic
Quote:

This company's plan to launch 4,000 massive space mirrors has scientists alarmed: 'From an astronomical perspective, that's pretty catastrophic'
News
By Tereza Pultarova published October 21, 2025
Reflect Orbital says their light-on-demand idea has generated significant interest from commercial and government customers.

Quote:

Reflect Orbital
Reflect Orbital, a California-based startup, has raised tens of millions of dollars for its ambitious plan to launch a constellation of 4,000 giant mirrors in space. The company aims to create "light on demand" by reflecting sunlight back to Earth after dark, potentially extending daytime hours for energy production, agriculture, and urban life. The startup has secured significant funding, including a $1.25 million Small Business Innovation Research (SBIR) contract from the U.S. Air Force, and has filed for a government license to launch its first satellite, EARENDIL-1, in April 2026. However, the project has raised significant concerns among astronomers and environmental advocates due to the potential impact on light pollution and the disruption of natural night sky observations.
Space.com
+5

Here is the company, Reflect Orbital: https://www.reflectorbital.com/
Quote:

Sunlight on demand
Reflect Orbital is delivering sunlight by building a constellation of in-space mirror

Instead of worrying about her sleep at night lets say it can start by being in places where it is more welcome. Such as places with fine soil but short growing seasons. If you could convert a growing season of 70 days to 90 days in a valley in Alaska, Yukon, or Siberia for instance.

They deal with the midnight sun keeping them awake in the summer anyway so they might think it is OK. But that would be only a few days a year.

What about solar panels in deserts? If you have a huge installation and few people, then you could use the mirrors for that.

What about the South Pacific where nutrient deserts exist. Floating solar power plants could pump nutrients up to stimulate the growth of algae and fish. This could be considered a Carbon Sink in part, because some of that organics would sink to the bottom of the sea to be sequestered for a long time.

What about at sea upwind from a desert, to cause rain in the desert?

I accept that that gal has the right to ask questions, but our existence depends on gifts from the universe always. This is no different.

And now what about Luna, Mars, Mercury, Venus, Etc. A mirror that did not reflect UV, (If possible) could make life possible on these worlds in there dark spots. Venus, Mars? For Venus, cloud cities that stay on the dark side of the planet. For Mars Heat Oasis situations in the dead of a winter situation.

What about solar powered spaceships?

As for Space Junk, that is going to be cleaned up.

Also these mirrors are not likely to be put in LEO. They would be oculted by the Earth almost half of the time if they were.

And above LEO, the space junk problem is not nearly as much a problem.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-28 20:48:48)

Void · 2025-10-29 10:03:16

OK, let's have a look at this:

I am going to imagine targeting multiple locations on the planet.

Greenland: https://www.bing.com/maps/search?FORM=H … .3&style=r

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view … t=0&sim=11
Image Quote:

Many places in the North and also Chile have Fjord: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fjord

Greenland and some other places have Fjords and ice caps. Mirrors from orbit could help keep a Fjord open year around, and also support an OTEC-Like operation for power and fresh water. Evaporation may be expected to fall as more snow to the ice cap in many cases depending on winds, I suppose. Plankton will be stimulated as well.

By lifting water vapor to the ice caps the ocean levels are reduced. (But of course you do not want to stimulate the melting of flowing glaciers.

This might also be done to refresh glaciers in mountains also, and even if we become desperate this could be done in Antarctica.

We can also suppose that some of the organic activity will deposit into deep cold water with the brine, and will be sequestered for thousands of years, reducing CO2 in the atmosphere.

Arctic Ocean: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_Ocean
Image Quote: Map_of_the_Arctic_region_showing_the_Northeast_Passage%2C_the_Northern_Sea_Route_and_Northwest_Passage%2C_and_bathymetry.png

In the spring and fall, these mirrors might be diverted to protect crops from untimely frosts.

New glaciers could probably be forced into existence with this process. Glaciers can cease to exist due to melting or from insufficient snowfall.

So Glaciers might be enhanced or created with this method.

And this might be important for the western coastal mountain glaciers of the America's.

OTEC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_the … conversion

https://ar.inspiredpencil.com/pictures- … ergy-plant
Image Quote: Global-map-of-OTEC-activities-and-resource-in-terms-of-the-temperature-difference-between.png

Where OTEC was already anticipated, light from mirrors might warm the water even more than it naturally is.

I do have sympathy for major observatories. They have to be considered.

And we should be making more telescopes in space and perhaps on the Moon.

The Mirrors may help pay for those telescopes or at least stimulate the rockets that can do both mirrors and telescopes.

Working with America's Greate Basin?

https://legacy.climas.arizona.edu/blog/ … agers.html

Image Quote: https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.8d5aaee8022 … ImgRaw&r=0

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Basin
Image Quote:

Causing increased evaporation off the coast of California, mostly could lead to more snowfal into the inland mountains. Then the snow melted may in part be sent into the Great Basin.

My recollections are that once water gets into the Great Basin it falls as precipitation about 7 times before departing.

If lakes form inside of the Basin and are salty, they might be evaporated by mirror light, so that water will move as vapor inland even more.
Of course you could have solar panels on top of water as well, to help maintain inland lakes, and to collect power.

This would to some degree reduce the ocean levels.

Ending Penging

Last edited by Void (2025-10-29 10:48:06)

Void · 2025-10-30 03:25:11

Mirrors might be used in space propulsions, and of course to make spots on the Moon more supportive of human efforts. I will probably return to those later.

I think for Mars of course they could be very important. Many spots of Mars may be economically preferred, but with Mirrors, I think the polar ice caps and the surrounded terrain will be attractive.

It is possible that the North Ice Cap would be the earlier target, as during global dust storms, it may be a source of cold while Hellas would be a source of heat to start up the global dust storm. Not sure of that but it is a maybe.

Active solar robots which could poise on the polar surfaces, could receive both normal summer sunlight and winter time light projected from orbital mirrors. Masses of ice represent situations where the harvesting of water will also provide a sort of shelter from some of the harsh features of Mars, such as radiation and thermal variations.

Rather than melting the ice cap from the top down, you would make it into a Swiss cheese of tunnels in the ices. Tunnels and vaults maintained at perhaps -10 to -20 degrees C would make the tunnels suitable to certain types of robots and of some use to humans as well.

Using heat pumps, a minority of space could be kept warm for human comfort.

It is possible that orbital mirrors could be in part built from materials of Phobos and Deimos.

The input of sunlight to the north ice cap in winter from mirrors may reduce the power of the engine that runs global dust storms.

The Solar Robots on the polar surfaces would likely be vertical and perhaps light orienting and may have legs or robot assistant that can help reposition them.

Methane and Oxygen could be manufactured in massive amounts and shipped by pipelines all around the planet, making it more habitable. Methane leaks will help in warming the planet. At any location with energy CO2 could be split to yield Oxygen and Methane piped in could be reacted with the Oxygen to produce water.

Later the South Polar Ice Cap might be treated in a similar manner.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-30 03:39:04)

Void · 2025-10-30 10:56:47

Because NASA has been focused on finding alien life, perhaps we do not know as much about other aspects of Mas such as Phobos and Deimos. I am not complaining. We do have some information after all. But we really cannot get as final for plans of how to settle Mars/Phobos/Deimos as might be desired. We can speculate on options at this point, supposing various possible actual conditions.

There are several other topics that could have materials that can become tributary to this topic:

Index» Terraformation» Robot Worlds:
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=11221

Index» Terraformation» Rubble Pile Sinter/Glass Jar:
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 30#p234730

Index» Science, Technology, and Astronomy» Asteroid/off-Earth mining:
Calliban has a good post: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 26#p235126
VOID interferes: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 36#p235136

As I see it, unless Phobos and Deimos have the materials, to get lots of stuff, we might want to follow Callibans advice.
Of course I will modify it.

Unless we want to go to the trouble of accessing major icy asteroids at about 3.0 AU, going after "Crumb" asteroids might be a good way to go.

I would modify the capture device from a bag to a cone shaped canister. The reason for this would be that as your system "Digested" asteroid crumbs, periodically it could expand it's size.

The cone would not be intended to hold high air pressures, but to work with low air pressures.

Like a sea creature in a shell, it would expand the perimeter of the cone and the Base Door, as materials became available from previously processed bits of asteroid.

I am hoping that a gyrotron such as may be used to drill hydrothermal wells can turn the materials into dust. This may release volatile substances as gasses. Water vapor is hoped for, and this may reduce Iron in the materials if Hydrogen were repeatedly added to the Gyrotron beam.

Even though the pressures within may be rather low, the seal on the "Base Door" will matter, I expect and will be a problem to solve.

As far as collecting the released volatiles perhaps a cold trap will do. Water collected would be split into Hydrogen and Oxygen and then the Hydrogen added back to the Gyrotron Beam.

Dust collected could be magnetically separated to yield a high and low Iron content.

Methods of propulsion would be desired. I presume an electric power supply to be present that is not shown in the cone drawing.

One method of propulsion I am hoping to try for would have LOX pushed though the pores of a ceramic 'Nozzle" and a laser beam to convert the LOX into a hot gas. The hope is to not erode the Ceramic Nozzle too fast.

Alternately Oxygen could be made into frozen pellets and ejected by Mass Driver, to give thrust.

Alternately if good enough Iron were available, it could be used in either a Neumann Driver or MagDrive propulsion system.

Alternately magnetic dust could be ejected using an on-board mass driver.

I do not favor bringing the processed materials exclusively to Earth/Moon, but to supply refilling stations in solar orbits that spacecraft can visit.

In "Robot Worlds" I have this illustration: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 47#p235047
Image Quote:

Here I show 3 concentric orbits between Earth and Mars:

My presumption is that most traffic by tonnage will be solar electric in nature. So, having refill stations in circular solar orbits will make sense. The harvesting of materials from small asteroids most proximate to one of these orbits may make sense.

If this method is developed it could then be extended into the Asteroid belt which apparently has many small asteroids, only now detected.
https://www.nasa.gov/solar-system/aster … roid-belt/
Quote:

3 min read
NASA’s Webb Reveals Smallest Asteroids Yet Found in Main Asteroid Belt

Quote:

“We now understand more about how small objects in the asteroid belt are formed and how many there could be,” said Tom Greene, an astrophysicist at NASA’s Ames Research Center in California’s Silicon Valley and co-author on the paper presenting the results. “Asteroids this size likely formed from collisions between larger ones in the main belt and are likely to drift towards the vicinity of Earth and the Sun.”

So, a continuous replenishment, may be occuring.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-30 11:43:45)

Void · 2025-10-31 10:19:56

So, questions about Neumann Drive.

Quote:

Neumann Drive offers a superior electric propulsion system compared to traditional chemical rockets, particularly in terms of specific impulse and thrust generation.
Specific Impulse: Neumann Drive's electric propulsion system can achieve specific impulse levels that are nearly twice that of chemical rockets, making it suitable for long-haul missions where fuel savings are critical.
1
Thrust Generation: The system utilizes a solid metallic propellant rod and a patented cathodic arc discharge technology, allowing for high thrust levels and exceptional delta-v capabilities.
1
Cost and Efficiency: While chemical rockets excel in raw power for launch phases, Neumann Drive's electric propulsion is more fuel-efficient and can sustain missions in low Earth orbit (LEO) with reduced propellant mass.
1
In summary, Neumann Drive's electric propulsion system represents a significant advancement over traditional chemical rockets, offering improved performance and efficiency for various space missions.

I think that as suggested elsewhere by Calliban Silicon could be the propellant.

https://neumannspace.com/neumann-drive/

My impression from searches on my phone is that the device, tested in orbit, works and could be scaled up.

Because a probe has visited it, I will investigate 433 Eros: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/433_Eros
Image Quote: Eros_-_PIA02923_%28color%29.jpg
Quote:

Physical characteristics
Dimensions
16.84±0.06 km (mean diameter)[1][5]
34.4 × 11.2 × 11.2 km[1][6]
Mass (6.687±0.003)×1015 kg[5]
Mean density 2.67±0.03 g/cm3[1][5]

So, if you set up a mining base there is plenty of "Ore" to last a long time.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view … ajaxserp=0
Image Quote: OIP.Ta8nERlpnxp9TmHA-Y0tGQHaD5?rs=1&pid=ImgDetMain&o=7&rm=3

I will grant that it is not ideal, it has about 10% inclination. It crosses many or the possible circular orbits between 1.0 AU and 2.0 AU. (Not quite 1 to 2 AU).

The story of water on stony asteroids is improving. The original report from AI that there is no water on Stony asteroids now allows for implantation by the solar wind, by impactors, and finally that the parent body of the stony asteroid may have had brines of water in it.

https://christophegaron.com/articles/re … ploration/
Quote:

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Recent research has detected water and hydroxyl (OH) on the asteroid 433 Eros, which challenges previous assumptions about the distribution of water in our solar system. This discovery was made using the NASA Infrared Telescope Facility (IRTF) to analyze reflectance spectra, revealing absorption features near 3 μm that indicate the presence of water and hydroxyl. The findings suggest that processes responsible for water creation on large airless bodies also occur on smaller bodies, indicating a more dynamic system at play.
Astrobiology
+1

But we are still dealing with this about Carbon on 433 Eros: Quote:

No carbon
Interpretation of absorption features suggests Eros is composed of an undifferentiated assemblage of moderate to high temperature minerals (iron, pyroxene, and olivine, but no carbon).
Spectrophotometry /0.33 to 1.07 microns/ of 433 Eros and compos…

The proper answers possible would be: "No Carbon was detected", or that "the levels of Carbon are below measurement capabilities".

In any case Carbon could be imported if necessary.

The asteroid should have useful substances.

https://www.astronomytrek.com/news/the- … id-mining/
Quote:

After asteroid 433 Eros flew close to the Earth in 1998, scientists estimated that the rocky body contained around 20 billion tons of precious metals, including gold, platinum and titanium. This would have an equivalent value of $11 trillion in today’s prices.
This figure was based on the fact that stony asteroids contain roughly 3% precious metals and when one considers there are over 9,000 known asteroids travelling in a close orbit to Earth, is it any wonder scientists are wondering whether the next gold rush will take place in outer space.
Although the technology required to carry out an asteroid mining operation in space are currently in the early stages, there are a number of factors that would make the prospect attractive. This includes the fact that landing and taking off from asteroids would be easier than many other space bodies, due to their lower gravitational force. In addition, heavier metals are found in considerably higher concentrations than on Earth, and are distributed more evenly throughout its mass.

It might be worth bringing those back to Earth. But for more common substances, I of course am interested in establishing "Solar Rings" of refill stations for spacecraft using Neumann Drive and Magdrive.

But these also could have Oxygen refills for chemical propulsion, I suppose. I am not sure how helpful that would be.

433 Eros is not the only asteroid that could be mined. But it approaches Earth and almost reaches the asteroid belt, so if you wanted a progression of refilling rings between 1.0 and 2.1 AU it might be a helpful source of propulsion resources.

Ending Pending

When I say "Solar Rings", that is just a place holder. These could be modified to be somewhat excentric if that was useful.

Last edited by Void (2025-10-31 10:57:55)

Void · 2025-10-31 11:18:54

To relate the previous post to the idea of Mirrors, I might suggest that if you had a Mirror production process with electric generators of some kind, you might retain them while you were further from the sun but release some of them as you got closer to the sun. They then might navigate to various purposes such as supplying the refilling stations. In fact, as such a device might have a lifetime, they might arrive at a refilling station and the Mirror be rendered into propulsion materials.

I have already suggested putting cobble sized rocks into chicken-wire enclosures to provide radiation shielding. Perhaps "Pillows" of such might be joined to make a double walled enclosure. If you don't like chicken-wire, then perhaps screening would suite your desires or a cloth of some kind. Ribs of simple types of steel or iron might also be used in the structure.

OK a ring or "Regolith Pearls" then, orbiting 433 Eros:

You could have synthetic gravity machines inside of them. You could anchor solar power devices on their exteriors.

You might classify your materials into Slabs, Cobbles, and Dirt. The Cobbles you might examine individually for useful metal content. The Dirt you might process into resources. The Slabs you might fashion into shelter structures using metal fixtures, rock anchors, and perhaps metal bands or cables.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-10-31 11:30:45)

Void · 2025-10-31 14:17:07

Considering the two previous posts before this one, I will say that it could be that photon sailing could be used to move mass from a parent asteroid to a refilling station in a solar orbit.

Of course the sails will be of metals or silicon so not as good as plastic sails, but give 3, 5, 10 years to travel, then maybe it could be done.

The sails arriving a refill station would then be consumed to make propellants.

Ending Pending

Void · 2025-10-31 21:24:00

Bags of rocks tied together into spheres, or some other shape, I suppose that they could be called "Rock Shells".

From post #6:

OK a ring or "Regolith Pearls" then, orbiting 433 Eros:

A plurality of Starships could be mounted together into an initial synthetic gravity machine(s)

Thie could possibly work for the average rubble pile. 433 Eros and 25143 Itokawa which are considered to be stony, and Ryugu, and Bennu, which are considered to be carbonaceous. In addition, we have the two Mars moons Phobos and Deimos.

In addition to establishing such shelters, but we may hope also to do as suggested in previous posts and establish refilling stations between the Earth/Moon and the location of 2.1 AU the inner edge of the asteroid belt.

Stony asteroids seem to have more water than 0%. Carbonaceous asteroids have considerably more. Also, the have some Carbon and perhaps a bit of Nitrogen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-type_asteroid
Quote:

C-type (carbonaceous /ˌkɑːrbəˈneɪʃəs/) asteroids are the most common variety, forming around 75% of known asteroids.[1] They are volatile-rich and distinguished by a very low albedo because their composition includes a large amount of carbon, in addition to rocks and minerals. They have an average density of about 1.7 g/cm3.
They lie most often at the outer edge of the asteroid belt, 3.5 au (520 million km; 330 million mi) from the Sun, where 80% of the asteroids are of this type[2], whereas only 40% of asteroids at 2 au (300 million km; 190 million mi) from the Sun are C-type.[3] The proportion of C-types may actually be greater than this, since C-types are much darker (and hence less detectable) than most other asteroid types, except for D-types and others that lie mostly at the extreme outer edge of the asteroid belt.

Small Asteroids found: https://www.nasa.gov/solar-system/aster … roid-belt/

So, a span of about 1.1 AU may accommodate this.

At 2.0 AU the sunlight will be 1/4 that of for Earth/Moon.

Mirrors then need to be perhaps >4 times as large at 2.0 AU than for 1.0 AU. These then may be shined on either solar panels of heat engines.

In the case where the disassembly of a rubble asteroid will reveal 1 or more large slabs of rocks, additional bags of small rocks and metal fixtures could allow the formation of very large caves in which protections from the most harsh aspects of space could be made available.

Of course, Mars/Phobos/Deimos are about in the center of the span of 1.0 to 2.1 AU.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-11-02 21:52:44)

Void · 2025-11-01 12:10:25

This is of some interest in my opinion:

Two partial "Rock Shells". With a rotator inside. The "Rock Shells" would be a collection of bags of rocks from a rubble pile. The bag could be of something like Chicken Wire or screening, or cloth of some kind. The Brown objects would be of such a collection of bags of rocks.

This would give protection to the rotator from damaging radiation types, and thermal fluctuations, and many impactors. The rocks will have an unknown insulation property. Some infrared will leak out, but overheating in the interior is a possibility.

So with two half domes, some additional leakage might occur depending on the size of the gap between the two halves.

I expect that additional "Pearls" can be created to host microgravity factories to produce Iron and Oxygen from finer regolith.

Not shown are solar power supplies, perhaps involving mirrors, solar panels or heat engines.

So, in orbit of Mars, perhaps there can be protections, and better solar energy, and perhaps easier attainment of 1 gravity simulation.

The point being that when rockets land on Mars they might then ascend to orbit and be refilled at least with Oxygen from the materials of Phobos and Deimos.

The atmosphere might be inflated to 2x or even perhaps 2.5x what it is in which case, it may even be possible to aero-burn into orbit of Mars directly.

More can and likely will be said about this later.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-11-01 12:36:14)

Void · 2025-11-01 20:16:08

I was killing time somewhere, and used my phone to look some stuff up about Phobos and Demos.

The Claims I read were that Phobos is leaking about 3 grams of water a second, and that Deimos has ice on it's surface in some of it's craters.

Quite contrary to all I have read up until now. I will attempt to verify this on my computer with similar questions.

Query: "Water on Phobos?"

The claim on my phone is not supported:

Water is not confirmed on Phobos
The presence of water on Phobos is a subject of ongoing research. While spectral observations have ruled out the presence of water on its surface, there are indications that ice may be present within the sounding depth of the Soviet Phobos Mission due to its low albedo and proximity to the sun. Additionally, the loss of water from Phobos is a concern, as it may have been reaccreted debris from giant impacts on Mars, which could imply that it would have been depleted in volatiles. Overall, while water is not confirmed on Phobos, the possibility of past water content remains a topic of interest in planetary science.
University of Colorado Boulder

Query: "Water on Deimos?"

The claim is not supported but it appears that some suspicion of it exists

There is ongoing research and speculation about water on Deimos, the smaller moon of Mars.
Some studies suggest that Deimos may have had an original water content due to its formation from reaccreted debris from giant impacts on Mars.
1
The moon's surface features, such as craters, may indicate past liquid water, but the exact presence of water remains uncertain.
1
Water is considered essential for various applications, including life support and exploration, making Deimos a potential source for water.
2
Overall, while there is evidence supporting the possibility of water on Deimos, the definitive existence of water is still a topic of scientific investigation.

Different Query: "Ice inside Deimos?" It appears that when dealing with computers you need to be more specific!

A bit of support:

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Deimos, one of Mars' moons, is believed to have ice, primarily in the form of water ice, on its surface. However, the extent and distribution of this ice are not fully confirmed, and more research is needed to understand its composition better. Deimos is a small and rocky object with a very thin atmosphere, making it unlikely for water to exist on its surface.

My phone indicates that it is suspected that Deimos has ice inside of it which may feed the ice on the surface if there is any.

Query: "Ice inside Phobos?"

Some support:

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Believed to contain ice
Phobos, the innermost moon of Mars, is believed to contain ice. Recent observations suggest that Phobos may have a substantial reservoir of ice, although spectral observations have ruled out the presence of water on its surface. Additionally, Phobos is thought to have a low-density internal structure, which could indicate the presence of ice. However, the exact nature of its interior remains a subject of scientific inquiry and speculation.
Wikipedia
+1

My phone indicates that water vapor is detected at a rate of an estimated 3 grams per second.

Suggestions of hydrated minerals and Carbon are in this article: https://academic.oup.com/mnras/article/ … 65/6660653
Quote:

ABSTRACT
Phobos and Deimos, the two satellites of Mars, were largely studied in the past using ground-based telescope and spacecraft data, although most of the data were obtained by opportunity observations performed by Mars dedicated orbiters. Despite the data available so far, the main composition of the two moons is not yet fully understood. The possible presence of hydrated minerals along with mafic minerals olivine and pyroxene seems to be the most plausible interpretation, but more investigations are needed. MIRS spectrometer on-board the future JAXA MMX sample return mission will help to unveil the open question on the composition of Phobos and Deimos. In this work, we review past spectroscopic observations of the Martian moons, both from ground observatories and spacecraft data set, aiming at better understanding the constraints in interpreting the Mars satellites composition and at identifying the best spectroscopic analogues. We also present new laboratory measurements on mineral mixing and meteorites to match the satellites spectral behaviour. New measurements were acquired at INAF-Astrophysical Observatory of Arcetri and IPAG laboratories at room conditions exploring different geometries and the results obtained set new constraints for future laboratory measurements. Our preliminary results confirm that the surface of Phobos and Deimos can be associated with samples characterized by a higher presence of dark components (e.g. amorphous carbon) or minerals produced by space weathering (e.g. Fe0 and FeS-bearing materials). Presence of dark component could also be totally responsible for the reduced hydrated band observed on the moons without invoking dehydration or OH-implantation on anhydrous surface.
methods: laboratory: solid state, space vehicles: instruments, techniques: imaging spectroscopy, planets and satellites: composition, planets and satellites: individual: Phobos, planets and satellites: surfaces
Issue Section: Article
Collection: RAS Journals, RAS Journals Old

I will risk a little bit and say that some reports indicate a less gifted set of moons as per desired substances. While excessive optimism should be avoided, we have to be aware of the "Verbal Idiot Savants".

They are a predator and if others of other talents are contained on a plantation, then those are slave class of farm animals as true function, unless the awaken to the deceptions that may be used to make a prison for the mind.

For instance I have been told that slaves in the US states that allowed it were told that if they escaped the Indians would kill them. That was not always true. Perhaps not very much true. I believe that American slavery was to some degree an import from old cultures that supported it that got taken over by "Verbal Idiot Savants" around the 13th century.

So, as we were told that our Moon was bone dry, (Whatever that means), we could be receiving insufficient or faulty information on the moons of Mars. But perhaps they will be deficient in Hydrogen and Carbon after all. We probably should find out.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-11-01 20:46:19)

Void · 2025-11-01 21:38:44

My focus on the two rubble piles Phobos and Deimos are important in my opinion because mirrors can also be made in orbit from the materials. Life support for humans and robots to create and operate those mirrors may be supported.

Although other objectives would be important, putting extra energy to the North Polar areas and Hellas areas in winter would make both more habitable.

Efforts to keep the north pole warmer in winter and Hellas cooler in summer may be able to tame global dust storms. IF that can be done then massive amounts of extra energy may be given to many locations on Mars with hope of less or no interfering dust storms.

An additional goal would be to evaporate all the dry ice on the surface of Mars to increase the air pressure. This would make both the North Polar areas (Not on the ice cap) and Hellas have better conditions for air braking spacecraft.

Methods to cool Hellas might be done by making many heats exchanger walls out of compressed Mars soil. Although solar panels may be mounted on these, the solar panels can have offsets that will allow air flow, and the solar panels can shade the compressed soil walls. The walls would also be placed as wind brakes to catch dust. They would be wind fences, in hopes of controlling dust storms.

The North polar ice body can be converted into a gigantic city of tunnels and vaults.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-11-01 21:45:37)

Void · 2025-11-02 09:01:12

I leave it open as to what portion of people might live on Mars or in the orbits of Mars. Simply because I do not know accurately many variables such as the true nature of Mars, and the evolution of technical skills that humans and robots might create.

If the moons Phobos and Deimos were taken apart to make shelters and for other resource creation, at first bags of rocks might be the simple outer protective method. But later those might be processed into other things.

Mirrors might make it possible to grant Mars as much energy as what the Earth has naturally. I am tempted to think though that Martians may want to preserve ice cap cities. In that case they would moderate what they would do to Mars.

I am not entirely sure, but I expect that more moons will be created for Mars by capturing asteroids to the planet's orbits.

If a propulsion device were to use Oxygen as propellant, they in the imagination we could fly our Moon to Mars, perhaps?

https://theconversation.com/the-moons-t … ars-170013
Quote:

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Approximately 45%
The Moon's regolith contains approximately 45% oxygen, which is primarily trapped within minerals and rocks. While there is oxygen on the Moon, it is not in a gaseous form that can be easily accessed by humans. Instead, the oxygen is bound within the minerals present in the regolith, which is the layer of rock and fine dust covering the lunar surface.

I would consider that to be as silly as most other people. But two forms of propulsion I can think of do exist. I do not know how good they are as per efficiency.

1) Mass Driver that expels Oxygen Ice Cubes from the surface of the Moon.
2) Ceramic nozzles that weep Oxygen onto a electrostatic surface to make it cling. But then a heat source to make the molecules bounce off into space. Perhaps Lasers or Microwaves.

While I don't actually recommend it for our Moon, I could be done for asteroids that also may have a large Oxygen content in them.

Parking the asteroids into the orbit of a planet may be useful as to reduce the collision hazards (Presuming good works intended and achieved), and more resource into the orbit of a planet.

While it may be that eventually humans will "Hack" human biology and make children grow up "Correctly" according to Earth human bias, or it may be possible to build centrifuges of a very large size on the surface of Mars, it may be easiest to build orbital structures around planets from attainable materials such as asteroids. It will be much easier for humans that live in orbit of Venus, Earth/Moon, Mars to maintain a communion with each other's than for the humans that live on planetary surfaces to do so.

If I recall correctly from: https://www.youtube.com/@Anthrofuturism

Regolith might be about .5% magnetic Iron.

Then it is easiest to extract the Oxygen from the non-magnetic Iron content, and hardest to extract Oxygen from Calcium.

So processing a rubble pile or other asteroid might create Iron and also Sintered and/or glassy materials. from materials that are hard to reduce. In this case "Easy Oxygen" would be a major propellant. Upon arrival to Mars, perhaps the harder Oxygen to extract would be extracted.

If you have spacecraft spewing Oxygen as propellant some of that will likely join the atmosphere of Mars and so, then swell it up.

For instance, if you are thrusting your ship in a prograde direction by expelling Oxygen Ice Cubes, perhaps you could eject them at a retrograde speed so that they have zero orbital speed. Sunlight would quickly vaporize the Oxygen, but it might still drop down into the atmosphere of Mars if it is quick enough and is not swept away by the solar wind.

So, you could thicken the atmosphere of Mars while propelling spacecraft between orbital architectures.

The mass to energy ratio of mirrors is more favored the closer to the sun the mirror is, but perhaps even out into the outer asteroid belt mirrors may be sufficiently good as power supplies.

Way down the road, Venus might have methods to scoop up atmosphere to Orbit and to expel Oxygen and retain Nitrogen and Carbon. Then possibly Nitrogen could be brought to Mars. It sounds expensive, but if you have virtually unlimited robot labor and sunshine, is it necessarily unobtainable? I think in the distant future it will not be impossible.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-11-02 09:40:03)

Void · 2025-11-02 21:54:06

Bags of rocks tied together into spheres, or some other shape, I suppose that they could be called "Rock Shells".

From post #6 & #8:

OK a ring or "Regolith Pearls" then, orbiting 433 Eros:

A plurality of Starships could be mounted together into an initial synthetic gravity machine(s)

I feel that this is a precursor to the possibility of building space habitats that are more extensive, such as similar to "Island One" and "O'Neill Cylinders".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Neill_cylinder
Image Quote:

The fact that such concepts came from university types shows that they are not troglodytes that get their hands dirty. They have a chicken but no egg. That is I don't see how they will fill this dream from Moon materials only.

But Mars/Phobos/Deimos is almost perfect for a startup.

At first built from components from Earth such as Starships. Those to be sheltered inside of "Primitive" sheltering methods.

The next step would be to develop methods to make metal sheets in orbit and join them together. Also to make ceramic type objects.
Probably even then "Rock Bag shelter would be wanted. Then maybe you could start making more humble habitats such as a modified "Island One".

A string of rock bag shelters could house two or more rotators, which may rotate counter to each other.

If you want sunrooms and greenhouses those are possible but more vulnerable to the hostility of the space environments.

I think it is typical for Americans usually to think in "One Layer" for a wall. But harsh environments benefit from "multi-layering".

Ending Pending

And yes, my idea, at least in part, descends from this idea: https://newatlas.com/space/space-habitat-ring-plan/
Image Quote: ?url=https%3A%2F%2Fnewatlas-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2F0c%2Fe7%2F1bf75795423681c18b5f25c5abfd%2Ffea-asteroid-base.jpg

I prefer the idea of nibbling on Phobos and Deimos and perhaps other rubble piles. What we see on the surface of a rubble asteroid may not be the same as what is in the interior. I am inclined to think that there are big slabs of rock inside.

And if there were ice in the interior of Phobos and Deimos we do not what to prematurely expose them.

I think we need to start small scale. Leave the slabs or work with them, extract and process the fines, and sort the cobble-rocks and put them into rock bags. Join the "Rock-Bags" into crude shelters for protection of fine equipment and humans.

The Cobble-Rocks can be examined to detect special ones, per minerals, and also source. Science might want objects that were captured from a young Mars, or from various asteroids over the history of these moons.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-11-02 22:16:13)

Void · 2025-11-05 12:00:35

It seems the Elon Musk is changing his navigation to point more at the Moon and at data centers in space: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gpp76mV6QTg Quote:

Tesla Will Benefit MASSIVELY From Elon’s Moon Strategy
Brighter with Herbert

I like it.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-11-05 12:01:38)

Void · 2025-11-05 19:39:37

More about data centers in space: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE

Quote:

Elon Musk Is Building A Supercomputer In Space!
YouTube
The Tesla Space
851 views
5 hours a

I am guessing they would just expand outward and even to the Moon even with time latency.

There could be a lot of Tesla $$$ in Space and SpaceX $$$ in space.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-11-05 19:41:59)

Void · 2025-11-06 10:41:32

A gift as usual from Isaac Arthur: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0l5Sv54pgYI
Quote:

The Space Mining Boom: How Asteroid Resources Will Shape the Future Economy
Isaac Arthur
826K subscribers

His calculations are 60's and 70's in the expectoration to rely on Hydrogen or Hydrocarbons or Ammonia as fuels. I understand that he did not want to rely on speculative propulsion methods such as Neumann Drive or Magdrive.

Propulsion involving the expulsion of Oxygen only are even less understood for practicality.

What I read is that Neumann Drive is better than ion drives that expel noble gasses. But I will say optimally 10x better than Hydro-Lox.

But I will make an arbitrary reduced claim of 5x as optimum circumstances are unlikely.

MagDrive sounds similar to Neumann Drive, but seems to indicate more thrust available but maybe less efficiency when you have more thrust.

So, I feel that "Reach" will be greater than that projected for Hydro-Lox.

At some point large scale space habitats might be possible. But what if a Island One Habitat existed with 10,000 people on it somewhere in the Earth/Moon orbits? At this moment people like Elon Musk and similar and their companies would likely buy that habitat, paying the 10,000 persons a large amount if they would immigrate to the Earth.

Then the Habitat could be converted into useful space machines such as Data Centers with power devices and radiators, or mirrors, or power satellites of Spacecraft.

So, for the moment large scale space habitats around Earth/Moon might not be a high purpose yet.

But Deimos/Phobos/Mars have a relatively ideal place to begin making habitats in orbit and on Mas itself, perhaps.

As for Lunar Water and CO2, it seems to me that some would be used for propulsions, at least at first to get off of the Moon. A group might render Bennu, and another group might render Ryugu for agricultural products to bring back to Earth/Moon.

A habitat the supported farming would be less demanding for raw materials than one that would house humans. Farms in Earth/Moon orbits might be valuable as although most "Staff" in space might be robots, there will be come humans, and also perhaps some tourism.

Some farming on the Moon will be needed as well for the same reason.

Probably Ryugu and Bennu will have some additional substances that would be worth bringing back to Earth/Moon.

In the beginning, well made items such as Starships could be converted into habitats even with spin gravity.

It might be that these could huddle with farms and power satellites, and mirrors. Although materials to shield habitats would be a one-time cost to get from the Moon or an asteroid, you could make a radiation shield out of humans, technically.

If you had a habitat that was of a million people, then if they spent all day rotating from the center of the habitat to the edges and back again, then they would each only get a small portion of the radiation while shielding others. Each only tanking a portion od the dose.

Of course that is a stupid method to protect from space radiation, but it illustrates that things like Data Centers or power Satellites, or other large structures might help shield humans and robots in space as a side effect of their existence.

This is why I have tried to create ideas of "Habitable Radiators" or "Habitable Heat Engines".

At some point, if AI or some other product justifies it it might be practical to combine Earth Hydrogen and Carbon with Lunar Oxygen to make water and CO2 in orbit.

CO2 Heat Pumps can make heat as high as 200 degrees C at this time. Of course AI would like the cold that would be produced from this.

I you could dump the heat of this into a canister with water in it, then you might support life in the canister of water if the water temperature is not too high.

This radiator process might provide some radiation protection for AI, Robots, and Humans.

The cylinder does not rotate, but a rotator might be inside of it. The rotator would be partially protected from much radiation, but not all GCR. The Rotator might host a small crew of humans who might run robots remotely to maintain the station.

Just one attempt.

Having a pressurized space between two cylinders, allows you to have internal stringers, to join the cylinder that it trying to expand out to the inner cylinder which tries to expand in.

The rather hot to warm water might host some kind of agriculture.

CO2 heat pumps would dump heat into the water and refrigerate the Data Center, "Grey Color".

This is kind of a timely video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujA2Ba8jjlM
Quote:

EXCLUSIVE: Elon Musk’s SPACE AI Vision Changes EVERYTHING
Brighter with Herbert

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-11-06 11:50:46)

Void · Yesterday 11:07:42

As far as I am concerned the new awakening of space exhibited by the recent claimed sayings of Elon Musk on behalf of Tesla and SpaceX, are a sort of Para-terraform of the Earth/Moon subsystem. We can attach a few Near-Earth Objects as well, such as Bennu and Ryugu. Of course I expect that others including Japan will participate.

I think I want to bring in some materials from another topic: "Index» Interplanetary transportation» Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other."
Post #195 & #196 of that topic: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 52#p235252

I am also hearing blab about a single raptor engine 3rd stage for Starship which would ride inside the Starship fairings.
I think this block diagram could suggest what you could get out of that, if you made the Starships Expendable/Not-Really, and had 3rd Stages.
I would expect that the Superheavy could be reusable.
A locomotive could become a depot that is self-propelled. They could be stacked and used as boosters in LEO or higher as well. They also might be able to land on the Moon if given legs.
The Fairings could simply pop off of the Locomotives and be joined together to make prescribable space.
The Starboats could be suitable for the Moon or perhaps eventually versions may be able to land on Earth or Mars.
A Starboat might host a one-way probe to other planets and might use the Locomotive as a booster from LEO, to the Moon. At the Moon, the Locomotive would perhaps detach and brake to orbit or circle around the Moon to go back to Earth, or land on the Moon. The probe would go it's own way.

And from post #196 for this one:

The reason to want to capture it to Lower Earth Orbits is to distribute LOX from the Moon, and the heat Shield is a source of resources also as it could be processed into Structure or Propellants.
There is already chatter about metals being placed into the atmosphere by space junk. I suggest that the Space Junk be removed to LEO uses.
It is possible that by burning a layer off of these heat shields we can cool the atmosphere, but we don't know. that yet.
It can be noticed that the heat shield can be rather large. The larger it is to some extent the lower the temperatures it will endure. Except if it has very large mass, in which case it brings energy of inertia and gravitational accelerating with it.
The method to move this engine from Lunar orbit to Lower Earth orbit could also include Neumann Drive or Magdrive methods.

This then moves to include electric rockets. The stubborn will not want to accept Neumann Drive or MagDrive yet, so let's entertain more conventional Ion Drives until those can be better proven.

From post #4 of this topic, I have entertained a system of concentric orbital refilling stations: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 78#p235178
Quote:

In "Robot Worlds" I have this illustration: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 47#p235047
Image Quote:
Here I show 3 concentric orbits between Earth and Mars:

The diagram suggests Solar Orbits but now let's consider 3 concentric ring orbits of the Earth between the Earth and Moon.

I believe that best case for electric rockets is thought to be 10x (Approximately) that of the best chemical rockets.
To be more realistic, being familiar with how reality actually works, lets expect 5x what the best chemical rockets can produce. It is an arbitrary number, but I do understand that in real life we do not typically get a "Best Case".

A problem with electric rockets is the inertia of their power plants. But we are going to hope that we can beam power form relatively stationary power stations to these Electric Ion propellant transfer depots. The mobile propellant depots will have special tuned solar cells that can receive at about 60% efficiency a tuned beam from a relatively stationary solar power plant in an Earth/Moon orbit.

>>>>>

I also suggest adding a sort of T.A.R.S. to this scheme.

https://www.space.com/technology/spacec … -heres-how
Quote:

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Solar-powered centrifuge
T.A.R.S. is a revolutionary space device concept that could revolutionize interstellar travel. It is a solar-powered centrifuge that uses reflective and dark-coated paddles to harness sunlight and accelerate small spacecraft to high speeds. This innovative approach does not require fusion reactors or gigawatt lasers, making it a more accessible and sustainable option for reaching other star systems. T.A.R.S. could potentially launch microscopic probes beyond our solar system using just sunlight, offering a low-cost and scalable solution for future space exploration.
Space.com
+2

If you have two ships, one being from a Higher Earth Orbit and one being from a Lower Earth Orbit, they could both land in the center of a spinning TARS, and be ejected down slides sequentially.

First the one from a higher orbit might be ejected in the direction of a lower orbit, and then as the spinning station would have it's orbit modified, we would want to correct it back again somewhat but releasing the one from a lower orbit to a higher orbit.

The slide thing was given a patent a long time ago. I do not have the reference at this time.

While it might complicate things, a massive object in orbit such as a power station, data center, or habitat might double as a TARS.

Caliban did introduce us to TARS.

I would prefer an Electric Ion propelled TARS.

So, a mass in space could be spun using Electric Ion and even its power plant is part of the mass that stores energy.

So, the big hope is that this network of "Filling Stations" with TARS, would facilitate the movement of Moon and Earth materials between LEO and the Moon. And if someone can make a Lunar Mass Driver or Rotavator system that can get materials into Lunar orbit, then all the better.

A TARS could be many things. A Filling Station? A big tank of water? A power station? Maybe a mix of things.

So, then I do suggest that it be investigated if other electric propulsion methods will work other than say Argon/Xenon.

Neumann Drive, MagDrive. And then is there a way to simply fling Oxygen at a high speed as a propellant, probably using electric power.

I do not like using Hydrocarbons as propellants more than is necessary.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Yesterday 11:52:33)

Void · Yesterday 12:19:58

OK, add this to the just prior post: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA1PNKJL Quote:

Elon Musk Announces Plan to Control Climate by Surrounding Earth in Adjustable Satellites
Story by Frank Landymore • 2d •
3 min read

Well then can we make them into spin propelled TARS, using Electric Ion Propulsions?

Do it!

Ending Pending

These are the tricks we need for Mars and Venus and other worlds.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Yesterday 12:23:11)

Void · Yesterday 12:43:46

In reference to the two prior posts I made today.

"WATER TANK TARS"

I think we could justify bringing Hydrogen from Earth to Orbits, and to join to that Lunar Oxygen.

If you are doing TARS with a big water tank then you can keep doing it over and over again. You are not expending the Hydrogen unless you get a leak.

I will make a diagram.

I do not show power source, radiator fins, or propulsion for spin in this diagram yet:

We can have spin gravity for human and some in a data center. These areas will be will protected from radiation. The radiator fins on the outside will be of a chevron nature to give impactor protection.

Spaceships may enter the hub though a tube you eyes are aligned with in this drawing and the spaceships can be inserted into the "Slide Tubes" to give a TARS boost to them, ejecting them to another orbit.

Perhaps to cool the chips heat will pass>Water>CO2 Heat Pump>Water. The first water being clean, but the 2nd water allowing farming inside the main body of water.

This device might also include refilling functions for propellants.

For power for the TARS, perhaps power would be beamed to this device from non-spinning solar panels. Maybe it would have a nuclear reactor as an alternative.

So, I think the export of Hydrogen from Earth would be justified due to all the useful functions the water would do, in a repeating fashion.

We also can shade the Earth with these various machines and also solar power stations.

Ending Pending

It could be that the raw solar panels would also be part of Tars, but that a mirror would be used to redirect sunlight to it.

Ending Pending

Baffles might be wanted in the water tank to give it more or less torque.

As a ship slides down a tube the solid structure will transfer spin more readily, but the water might retain its motion. But baffles would then
alter this so that more momentum comes from the water if you have more baffles.

Ending Pending

To avoid water-hammer, bags of air might help. I don't think water-hammer will be that much of a problem though.

Ending Pending

Agriculture would likely be chemical and/or artificial light in nature.

Ending Pending

And no! you don't want this thing to freeze.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Yesterday 13:12:44)

Void · Today 09:12:02

The last few posts from yesterday, deal with T.A.R.S. Specifically, "Water Tank TARS".

Water is used not only for it's inertia, but for radiation shielding, data center cooling, and agriculture, at least.

This morning, I have a scheme that involves at least 3 bases associated with the Moon:
1) Polar
2) Lower Latitude minerals (Platinum Family are hoped for).
3) Lunar orbital of some kind, where TARS will be developed.

This would involve a process to capture Oxygen and Iron and other substances from the Moon, to build things and to export.
I would also involve the import to base #3 primarily of Paraffin Wax. I choose Paraffin Wax as it can be used as a fuel but also would be important in evolving resources from Lunar Materials. It is also a relatively inert substance and also can provide radiation shielding.

At all 3 bases it may be possible to process an Iron concentrate using Paraffin Wax, or Hydrogen.

While it could be done in Base 1, it would be done with Lunar Hydrogen if possible. From https://www.youtube.com/@Anthrofuturism , I get information that the Hydrogen can be used repeatedly and even should accumulate as more Hydrogen, presuming some Hydrogens in the regolith to process.

If we want some types of Iron or Steel, we might import some Carbon to Base #1 or find it on the Moon, perhaps dry ice at the poles.
This process would also produce Oxygen for breathing and for refilling spacecraft at base #1. Base #1 may not target magnetic Iron, but more the larger quantity of non-magnetic Iron.

But Base #2 would target magnetic Iron, and use magnetics to pluck it out of the Lunar Regolith Dust. It is estimated that about .5% of the materials will be magnetic Iron. However, even if concentrated, it will have other materials bonded to it. This is actually a good thing. Some of it would be Magnetite which has some Oxygen in it. Others may be simply substances that are stuck to small fragments of magnetic Iron. Base #2 would export this concentrate to the orbital Base #3. We are also hoping for some kind of a processing of Platinum Family Metals from Base #2 which can be exported after some processing to Base #3.

I am going to set processing for Platinum Family Metals aside for now. I am not sure if you would be able to use microbes to extract it from it's ores or some other method.

But now for the Iron Concentrate, we will react it with Paraffin imported from Earth and do Pyrolysis in orbit to produce a reduction extracting much of the Oxygen that is bonded to both magnetic Iron and some small amount of non-magnetic Iron that may have come along with the magnetic Iron. This will produce a reduced concentrate and Water and CO2. Some Carbon may infiltrate the reduced concentrate. The water and CO2 can be processed to produce various things, perhaps Methane to refill a Starship.

We will hope to accumulate liquid water in large amounts over time to build a "Water Tank Tars".

Our reduced Iron concentrate then can be processed to produce Iron, and Carbon Steel. If we import alloy agents, we can make other types of steel.

The Slag can be processed to make things.

One thing I would like produced would be heat shields, using Steel and fibers of Slag. Putting an ablative layer of slag product over a metal heat shield.

From post #17 of this topic:

The cylinder is imagined to be a Starship "Locomotive", which is its tanks, engines, and whatever else it needs. It has multiple tanks so that
it can carry various balances of fluid substances.

It then has a "One Time" heat shield attached to it that was made in orbit from Lunar Materials and some of the Carbon from the Paraffin that was imported.

The desire is to send this back to Earth to do one or more skims of the Earth's atmosphere to achieve a Lower Earth Orbit.

At this "Lower Earth Orbit" what remains of the heat shield is to be reprocessed for the production of alternate resources in orbit of the Earth/Moon locations. The device may also bring "Platinum Family Metals" back as well. In some of its tanks it might have extra Oxygen.

The "Locomotive" with heat shield detached will have protected Paraffin blocks added to it's outside. It may have a lot of extra Methane added to it. Perhaps to get to Lunar Orbit, it would have 3 tanks of Methane and one tank of Oxygen.

The back and forth of this can be assisted by both electric Rocket and Tars. If fact TARS that is "Spun Up" by electric rocket propulsions.

Early versions of Tars could include tethers to fling the ship in the direction of intentions.

Some TARS might be powered by an Argon/Xenon mix. But I am hoping that Lunar Tars can be "Spun-Up" using Neumann Drive or Magdrive.

In making a "Water-Tank-Tars", keep in mind that a great deal of the Mass may come from the Moon.

https://brainly.com/question/51013885
Quote:

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Water is composed of 11% hydrogen and 89% oxygen by mass. This means that in every 100 grams of water, 89 grams consist of oxygen, while 11 grams consist of hydrogen. This composition is consistent across different sources, confirming the accuracy of the percentages.

At first the metal part of a water TARS could be made from water filled Starship bodies lashed together. Later we would hope to make suitable metals in orbit of the Moon to construct much larger TARS.

Later we may also hope to get Hydrogen from sources beyond the Earth and Moon.

So, then after the first Lunar TARS is created, we might seek to make more of them at sequentially lower Earth orbits, so that the Locomotives can both be refilled and repeatedly flung up or down in Earth Orbits.

I am hoping that these filling stations will be refilled, by Neuman Drive or MagDrive robots, perhaps using Iron as a propellant.

So, the more TARS you make then less chemical propulsion you need to move the Locomotive around.

And as I have said the heat shields being in a large part of Iron/Steel, may be feedstock at LEO for the movement or resources to these filling stations by a efficient means.

Ending Pending

Bob Dylan Composed: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=VAMGZC
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Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Today 10:31:01)

Void · Today 16:06:06

An alternative to a "Spin-Tars" would be a double ended tether system in orbit. Perhaps even an electrodynamic tether.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrodynamic_tether
Quote:

Electrodynamic tether
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Medium close-up view, captured with a 70 mm camera, shows tethered satellite system deployment.
Electrodynamic tethers (EDTs) are long conducting wires, such as one deployed from a tether satellite, which can operate on electromagnetic principles as generators, by converting their kinetic energy to electrical energy, or as motors, converting electrical energy to kinetic energy.[1] Electric potential is generated across a conductive tether by its motion through a planet's magnetic field.
A number of missions have demonstrated electrodynamic tethers in space, most notably the TSS-1, TSS-1R, and Plasma Motor Generator (PMG) experiments.
Tether propulsion
As part of a tether propulsion system, craft can use long, strong conductors (though not all tethers are conductive) to change the orbits of spacecraft. It has the potential to make space travel significantly cheaper.[citation needed] When direct current is applied to the tether, it exerts a Lorentz force against the magnetic field, and the tether exerts a force on the vehicle. It can be used either to accelerate or brake an orbiting spacecraft.
In 2012 Star Technology and Research was awarded a $1.9 million contract to qualify a tether propulsion system for orbital debris removal.

At this time, I think the Earth's magnetic field extends out to maybe a bit more than geosynchronous.

In this case rather than spinning a big tank of water, you might have it as a landing pad at the middle of the structure.

You would have a tether extended towards the Earth and one extended away from the Earth.

In this case the Tank of water could be in connection with solar power devices, and could host data centers, human and robot habitat, farming, and other features. The Tank of water would be made as a radiator and radiation protection.

Poised well above space junk of LEO, we may hope to preserve tethers well enough to use them for extended periods.

A spacecraft landing on the Tank of water could proceed to the end of either tether and gain thrust in the direction of that tether.

If Electrodynamic Tethers are used the whole assembly can be raised or lowered in orbit. Depending on desires.

Something like this from post #16 might better apply: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 93#p235293
Image Quote:

This radiator process might provide some radiation protection for AI, Robots, and Humans.
The cylinder does not rotate, but a rotator might be inside of it. The rotator would be partially protected from much radiation, but not all GCR. The Rotator might host a small crew of humans who might run robots remotely to maintain the station.
Just one attempt.
Having a pressurized space between two cylinders, allows you to have internal stringers, to join the cylinder that it trying to expand out to the inner cylinder which tries to expand in.

So, you would just hang tethers in both directions off from the tank.

You could do this outside of the Earth's magnetic field, but then you would not do the electrodynamic parts of the scheme.
You might use an electric ion thrust, hopefully Neumann Drive or Magdrive will do.

I think that we do have a NASA problem as expressed by utube video presenters. They are still in the 20th century. While I think we may need to burn Hydrogen and Oxygen from the Moon at times when necessary, we should prefer not to.

Water can give endless service to space needs including propulsion, in some situations.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Today 16:23:58)

Void · Today 18:58:25

Good for China.

I can excuse them tooting their own horn. I don't know that they found new things, but they do have additional information. Also they seem to have discovered more of everything.

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … df9dbe3dfa
Quote:

CHINA'S SHOCKING Moon Discovery Revealed |The New Space Race Nobody's Talking About it
YouTube
The fact Engine

In my opinion contact with East Asia and Russia and perhaps the Nordics has a favorable result for the peoples who we claim like freedoms.

It is a count balance to the Verbal and Violent processes that center on the Middle East, and project even into Christianity to some extent.

I believe that the same was true when Europeans encountered the native peoples of the Americas.

But China and Japan will not collapse as much. I do not hate Christian culture itself, but the elites of Christian nations turn out the lights, eat the brains. Not that China And Japan are without fault and not in need of exterior inputs, but contact between the groups can produce value in my opinion.

We may have Japan with us more closely, but we also may find graceful balance with China and Russia and others on the Moon.

After all the surface of the Moon is about the size of North and South American I believe. And the solar system is some much more vast.

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Last edited by Void (Today 19:06:00)

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#1 2025-10-28 20:27:00

Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots

#2 2025-10-29 10:03:16

Re: Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots

#3 2025-10-30 03:25:11

Re: Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots

#4 2025-10-30 10:56:47

Re: Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots

#5 2025-10-31 10:19:56

Re: Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots

#6 2025-10-31 11:18:54

Re: Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots

#7 2025-10-31 14:17:07

Re: Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots

#8 2025-10-31 21:24:00

Re: Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots

#9 2025-11-01 12:10:25

Re: Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots

#10 2025-11-01 20:16:08

Re: Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots

#11 2025-11-01 21:38:44

Re: Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots

#12 2025-11-02 09:01:12

Re: Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots

#13 2025-11-02 21:54:06

Re: Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots

#14 2025-11-05 12:00:35

Re: Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots

#15 2025-11-05 19:39:37

Re: Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots

#16 2025-11-06 10:41:32

Re: Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots

#17 Yesterday 11:07:42

Re: Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots

#18 Yesterday 12:19:58

Re: Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots

#19 Yesterday 12:43:46

Re: Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots

#20 Today 09:12:02

Re: Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots

#21 Today 16:06:06

Re: Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots

#22 Today 18:58:25

Re: Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots

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