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#26 Re: Human missions » One man one way suicide mission... » 2006-01-04 23:41:10
I've thought about sending Mars methane to the Moon or EML-1. That would be "worth" whatever the launch costs are from Earth at that time.
Use made on Mars rocket fuel and salvage and refurbish RL-10s (for example) from a previous supply mission to Mars. Payment for those engines goes on another balance sheet.
The "hard currency" cost would be very little. Soft currency costs (i.e. Marsian labor & Marsian atmosphere processed into fuel) is irrelevant because the metric is to help raise cash to support people who want to settle permanently anyways. Thus that labor cost can be ignored. 
= = =
To answer bobunf, all labor on Mars should be performed by people who want to stay permanently for reasons other than wages. Given them room and board and a liveable social contract and they won't need a Terran bank account.
If they do choose to return, book deals should help them pay the bills back on Earth.
#27 Re: Human missions » Private Space Tourism » 2005-12-30 13:29:13
According to a space.com comment, the rules include this:
"Space Tourists may be subjected to TSA screenings and checked against the 'no-fly' list."
Somehow, I find this amusing.
"Sorry, sir but we need you to take off your shoes and walk through the metal detector before boarding SpaceShipTwo"
#28 Re: Human missions » ESAS Report including » 2005-12-23 10:39:54
#29 Re: Not So Free Chat » I'll take malaprops for *5* Bob - Apropos of Nothing continues. . . » 2005-12-20 18:43:10
A question... I read everywhere (in discussions on the 'net, that is) references about people being upset about the expression 'happy holidays'
I don't understand, what's this all about? In plain English please?
Its not sufficiently Christian, like "Merry Christmas"
#30 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Falcon 1 & Falcon 9 » 2005-12-19 22:25:14
An assertion made in a comment (Dave G) at Rand Simberg's blog. Is the comment true?
I dunno. For what its worth:
Read the articles. Tank failure due to inadvertant excessive vacuum caused by a failed vent valve (failed closed) during de-fueling. Sucked it in like a soda can, which has no structural strength in that direction (nor is it designed to).
Sounds to me like a failure of the design team to identify this as a potential hazard, and provide a rupture point that protects the entire tank from this scenario. Either that, or at least have redundant valves (probably not due to weight), or a better unloading procedure (not that you can take the human out of the equation).
Tough way to learn a lesson. Cryin' shame, we're all rooting for them. But, bets are that the tank is scrap, and maybe the whole vehicle.
Edit to add: Here is a link to MSNBC fairly authoritative it would seem.
The article quote Musk from his SpaceX site. Such prompt candor should be applauded:
"Due to high winds, we placed the countdown on hold and began draining the fuel tank. As we drained fuel from the first-stage tank, a faulty pressurization valve caused a vacuum condition in the tank. This caused a fuel tank barrel section to deform and suck slightly inward. It is important to note that the root cause is an electrical fault with a valve, not structural design. At this point, it appears that no other damage was sustained to the vehicle or the satellite."
#31 Re: Human missions » What should be the focus of human space society/exploration? » 2005-12-17 22:34:33
...All this piddling with dropping overgrown Me-262s from Lear jets
Obviously, I'm bored.
I think you mean the Komet. But your point stands.
It is cool, however, that Pioneer Rocketplane will actually use a rebuilt Learjet to go suborbital. Add a delta wing and rockets and go ballistic. 
Not even a steppingstone to orbital, however.
#32 Re: Human missions » NASA's Moon Mission » 2005-12-16 17:32:37
Interesting paper on the topic of delta v.
The author asserts 2.62 km/s to LL1 (EML-1) from LS (lunar surface) - - why can't people use the same abbreviations?
and 1.93 km/s to low lunar orbit at 100km altitude and 2.74 km/s to LLO at 10,000 km altitude. EML-1 / LL1 indeed is closer in delta V than a 10,000 km orbit. Farther than a 100 km orbit.
= = =
A terrific line is found in the paper:
The Focused Study does a good job of making a difficult subject incomprehensible to the non-specialist
Heh!
In this or another paper he says something to the effect that this subject (lunar trajectories) is well understood by those who understand it and a complete mystery to everyone else. (edit - see the top of page 9)
#33 Re: Human missions » NASA 2006 Budget » 2005-12-16 11:45:52
House Science Committee Conference Agreement Reached on NASA Authorization Bill
The final version of the bill includes most of the provisions from both the House and Senate bills. The bill directs NASA to carry out programs in human space flight, aeronautics, space science, earth science and microgravity research, and it endorses President Bush's Vision for Space Exploration.
The bill authorizes about $17.9 billion for NASA in fiscal year 2007 and about $18.7 billion in fiscal year 2008 - significantly more than provided for the outyears in the Administration's fiscal year 2006 budget request.
Major provisions of the bill include:
Requires that at least 15 percent of the spending for the International Space Station (ISS) be used for microgravity research not related to exploration programs.
Requires multi-year plans for aeronautics, science, facilities and workforce, and prevents layoffs (Reductions in Force) before March 16, 2007.
Okay, this will be snarky, but it is just too funny to pass up:
House Science Committee Chairman Sherwood Boehlert (R-NY), the lead House conferee, said, "This bill is a true compromise, and it shows what we can accomplish when everyone is willing to work together.
Heh!
Yeah, lets compromise and just pay for all of it! Not that I am complaining, mind you.
#34 Re: Not So Free Chat » I'll take malaprops for *5* Bob - Apropos of Nothing continues. . . » 2005-12-16 09:37:38
It's Miller time for Bill and Josh. Cobra? He gets the Strohs. Josh of course also deserves a bourbon shooter for being, well, Josh.
If you don't follow?
Well then just move along. Nothing to see here.
#35 Re: Human missions » NASA 2006 Budget » 2005-12-16 09:25:25
Yes Nasa is looking for more than the 4% that has been initailly chartered for then of which they are looking to get 9% instead.
Of course there are those that are putting forth the idea that retiring Atlantis would close the budget deficit for the up coming years. This only puts more of stress on the remaing shuttles by doing so and actually does not lessen the gap but could actually increase it by forcing overtime hours to keep the shuttles to the launch quantity scheduels to complete the ISS.
Here is the current space shuttle processing report
If anything they should stop the major overhaul of Endeavour if they are looking to save money.
Its the political equivalent of playing chicken.
If Griffin gets another $6B ($1.5B per year for 4 years) then in 2010 maybe the entire increased amount can be rolled into exploration.
I recall a transcript from about 2, maybe 3 or 4 years ago where Griffin told Congress that $18B or $19B was the right number for the annual budget for an exploration budget. That seems to be what he is after.
#36 Re: Human missions » NASA 2006 Budget » 2005-12-15 23:14:52
*Crosses his fingers that NASA is setting up Congress to put up or let Griffin cut the ISS*
Yup. My thoughts exactly.
If Congress ponies up another $5B to finish ISS and fly CEV/CLV meeting Griffin's current schedule, well the US government has spent more foolish $5B on other occasions.
= = =
Strong bi-partisan support. May not be a perfect statement from a space advocacy perspective but its pretty good.
I blame Mike Griffin.
#37 Re: Human missions » NASA 2006 Budget » 2005-12-15 21:38:38
Does this letter ask for more money for NASA? Full funding for the orbiter flights needed to finish ISS AND full funding for accelerated CEV/CLV development?
As you prepare your FY 2007 budget request for the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA), we strongly urge you to ensure the Space Shuttle program receives the full funding necessary to complete the entire assembly of the Space Station and, in turn, the first steps of your Vision for Space Exploration.
and this
We also urge you to maintain full funding for the expedited development of the CEV/CLV. Enabling exploration beyond low-earth orbit is a critical element of your Vision. We believe that this plan for going beyond low-earth orbit is bold and forward-thinking, and keeps with the American tradition of leadership in exploration and discovery.
#38 Re: Not So Free Chat » I'll take malaprops for *5* Bob - Apropos of Nothing continues. . . » 2005-12-15 10:44:28
Good one.
Which reminds me of this:
http://www.nbc-links.com/powerpoint.html
Major Remf? That's a good one.
#39 Re: Human missions » NASA's Moon Mission » 2005-12-14 22:54:56
*Thinks*
Possible. At EML, ground speed relative to Luna isn't a factor.
It is sort of a cool idea.
The objective would be to lift off the lunar surface and burn exactly long enough for your momentumto carry you to EML-1 with velocity slowing and hitting zero (the slowing coming from lunar gravity) at the same time you reach EML-1.
Come up short and you fall back to Luna. At EML-1 Earth's gravity prevents that.
Station keeping thrusters would be needed to fine tune your final position.
= = =
It would seem to be a long slow ride, decelerating continually from the moment you shut off the engines until you arrive at EML-1 with no residual velocity.
#40 Re: Meta New Mars » Active Members Of New Mars Please Vote! » 2005-12-14 22:49:17
Hey Bill, one side effect of putting the thread in Meta New Mars, is that Ricky can use as many alternate personalities as he likes without registering or giving a join-on date.
Yup - good point. :?
But for tonight I will let this play out and see what happens.
#41 Re: Meta New Mars » Active Members Of New Mars Please Vote! » 2005-12-14 21:43:39
Cobra Commander is, ahem, rather to the right of me, politically. 8)
He's the stormtrooper guy. But he & I get along great and pretty much set aside politics in our moderating.
Moving the topic will actually give your poll MORE exposure not less and it is a "meta New Mars" topic as it concerns the membership composition of the discussion board.
= = =
As for my skills as moderator, the board is getting full value for every penny they pay me. 
#42 Re: Human missions » NASA's Moon Mission » 2005-12-14 21:37:49
Technical question.
At space.com message boards I was told that the delta V from lunar surface to EML-1 is less than the delta V to a stable LLO orbit.
Plausible?
#43 Re: Meta New Mars » Active Members Of New Mars Please Vote! » 2005-12-14 21:20:35
Me? What? No! ...Rick however, is a former USN aircraft mechanic. And "coincidentially," so is sdc4.
Ah, I went back to your original post on this and I see my misunderstanding. Sorry.
My father in law was training to fly off of aircraft carriers in the summer of 1945. He said he was glad the war ended before he left Pensacola because he was really bad at it.
#44 Re: Meta New Mars » Active Members Of New Mars Please Vote! » 2005-12-14 21:14:59
And to show some good humor:
1) Are you an active dues paying member/supporter of the Mars Society?
yes - if wrong maggie will write me and ask for a check.
2) Are you a non-dues paying member/supporter of the Mars Society?
see 1
3) Do you support the Mars Society?
yes
4) Are you:
A) Under 14 years of age?
B) 14 to 17 years of age?
C) 18 to 21 years of age?
D) 22 to 30 years of age?
E) 31 to 40 years of age?
F) 41 to 50 years of age?
G) 51 or older?
Uh oh. F
5) Are you:
Male or Female?
Male
6) What Country are you from?
USA
7) What is your educational background?
J.D. & B.A. - American History
8 ) What is your job or career field?
Atty
9) What Political Party or Belief do you support?
Lefty Libertarian
10) What is your Religion or Belief in a God or Creator?
Free thinking Roman Catholic
#45 Re: Human missions » STS-114 Mission Coverage and Discussion » 2005-12-14 21:08:11
Is this the only level of science that ISS and Shuttle are ever going to be good for?
It is great that schools are learning about space but there must be more than this?
[url=http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=429619&category=SCHENECTADY&BCCode=&newsdate=12/14/2005]Space seeds sprout school's cosmic study
Central Park students will examine and grow seeds returned from space station[/url]
#46 Re: Human missions » Nasa Shuttle, ISS Woes & To-Mars » 2005-12-14 21:05:17
I truely dislike the way Nasa is setup in that it does not operate more like a business trying to make a profit. It ends up being just one big sink hole...
Common sense seems to have prevailed for the ISS progress that is docked currently in that since it has pleenty of O2 on board and still room for trash that it will have its burial at sea delayed.
Progress M-54 spacecraft to be docked with ISS until March 2006
NASA has a mission. If we can shatter the paradigm that NASA equals spaceflight, then NASA can do what it does and others can build EML-1 Gateways and mine lunar PGM, etc. . .
#47 Re: Space Policy » Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first » 2005-12-14 21:03:57
Interesting. Beating NASA would generate massive publicity.
#48 Re: Human missions » What should be the focus of human space society/exploration? » 2005-12-14 21:02:57
Heh! If we are to get wild, could we drop a floating mining facility onto the atmosphere of Venus and mine the nitrogen?
Build sealed tanks filled with vacuum and build an oil rig like platform and then set it down into the atmosphere and let it float.
#49 Re: Meta New Mars » Active Members Of New Mars Please Vote! » 2005-12-14 20:57:33
Awww c'mon Bill, don't let a little technical glitch permit Ricky to flood.
I might need Josh and some super-duper powers. It may be self correcting. The posts shadow at Human Missions yet new posts do not bouy the thread up to the top. (like a Venusian nitrogen mine?)
= = =
This is truly meta New Mars as its about New Marsians gazing into their own navels.
I say leave it here but if CC or Josh disagree, hey I won't argue.
#50 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Manned Missions To Jupiter » 2005-12-14 20:34:51
IMHO, not feasible without serious nuclear power. Propulsion and life support.