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#251 Re: Not So Free Chat » ISS to crash and burn? - Russia reconsiders » 2002-10-30 00:08:12

It sounds to me like some of the people up top are forgetting the intents and purposes of our forefathers.  How dare they betray the ideals of the great men and women who started this country because of things like government controlled markets.

  Free market.  Free will.

Hey don't get the idea I'm against free markets!  Hell one of the reasons I'm hoping Brad can get his elevator built is because it's a private venture (with some government funds!)  I think we're a lot more likely to get into space if there's starving, profit hungry businesses out there competing for passengers and cargo. Screw the idea of governments carefully selecting certain people who will go into space to represent all mankind.  I'd rather represent myself in space instead!  *sees Clark circling overhead getting ready to swoop down with reasons why spaceflight will or should always be the sole business of big government!*

#252 Re: Not So Free Chat » Who would you take to Mars? - long ways, who would you want to go with » 2002-10-29 23:51:42

Hmmm.
    I must try to maintain a balanced judgment here.

    Accordions, trumpets and drums versus a short 'walk' outside ... without a suit ...

    Yeah, I think I'll go for the vacuum of interplanetary space!

                                        sad

    Sheeesh! With friends like you guys .... !!         ???

Don't worry Shaun.  I'm sure we'll have learned how to play our instruments on a rudimentary level by time we're halfway to Mars. smile  And you don't want to go into the vaccuum of space without a spacesuit on.  Believe me, you just don't. smile

#253 Re: Civilization and Culture » The Martian Way - To instill the vision of pioneering Mars » 2002-10-29 23:47:31

Is that Adobe program a little like a graphical chatroom?  Your ideas seem similiar to the concept of an mmorpg where there's an online "world" people log into and out of.

#254 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Mass Drivers on Mars - "Space gun" to shoot stuff to Earth??? » 2002-10-29 23:28:10

Here's a bit more data. The book *On to Mars* (available through Amazon, contains highlights of papers from the 1998-2001 Mars Society annual meetings) has a CD rom in its back with additional papers, and one is about mass drivers.

What did you think of that book?  I've been thinking about buying it.

#255 Re: Space Policy » Chinese Space Program? - What if they get there first » 2002-10-29 23:20:57

I have no problems with the Chinese colonizing parts of Mars.  Nothing would energize the US more than China getting cocky and claiming Mars as its sovereign territory!  So I say go China!  And everybody leave the guns at home! big_smile

#256 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Mars getting close - and looking good! » 2002-10-28 20:22:18

According to Astronomy.com Mars is going to look better than it has in 2000 years.  I guess now would be a better time than any to get a scope.  An excerpt from the article:

Although the planet may not look terribly prominent at the moment, just wait a few months. It has started on a slow march toward its best appearance in our sky in more than 2,000 years. More than any other planet, Mars can range from truly spectacular to downright mediocre. Fortunately for Earthbound observers, the view in 2003 will tip decidedly toward the former.

#257 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Which of these missions would you prefer - take a pick » 2002-10-28 20:16:08

I wonder if there will ever be technology that could survive a descent clear down to Jupiter's solid core.  That would be an adventure indeed.

#258 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Europa » 2002-10-28 20:05:55

Actually people are considering sending an orbiter to Europa in the not too distant future to study Europa's surface for areas where the seepage from the liquid ocean might be coming up to the surface.  Some people think it might be easier to just scout the moon for such areas of seepage and then send a lander that would pick up the materials off the surface instead of drilling down.  That drill would have to go through kilometers of ice before reaching the ocean and I'm not sure if we could provide it with the power to do that short of using nuclear.  The article is here.

#259 Re: Not So Free Chat » Diversity » 2002-10-28 19:58:28

It's amazing how many cars a key can fit.  The manufacturers must only use a limited number of key templates or some keys must turn out so similiar that they work anyway even if meant to be basically unique.  Anyways it's good you realized your mishap before you drove it home and then realized you stole a car. smile

#260 Re: Not So Free Chat » ISS to crash and burn? - Russia reconsiders » 2002-10-28 19:42:06

Some one (Carl Sagan or Robert Zubrin, I think) once suggested that perhaps we should create a sort of "Port Authority" for near Earth space and force NASA to get out the way and start doing what they are supposed to be doing:  EXPLORING.  Set up an agency (just a minimalist operation not a bureaucratic dinosaur) to run everything inside of Geosynchronous orbit.  This agency should also try ENCOURAGING not disouraging the private sector from getting involved in space. 

The greatest barrier to our expansion into space for the last twenty or so years (in some ways since the beginning) has been the very agency created to break those barriers and the bureaucrats in charge.

YEs!  Preach it bro!  NASA did talk about privatizing the shuttle fleet by leaving its maintenance up to private contractors but I can't see why any contractor would take such a monster unless they were promised good profits which could cost us even more, not unless the contractor is able to cut out a lot of NASA's bloat and make it cheaper even with profits--which wouldn't surprise me.

Always remember: the government is their to serve the people, not to sabotage our destiny.

big_smile

#261 Re: Not So Free Chat » Metric Conversion - Pros and Cons » 2002-10-28 19:17:22

BUZZ!  Actually a nanometer is equal to 3.94 * 10^-4 mils.

Hello Ranger!  I know that you can equivocate the nanometer in the imperial system but tell me which unit of measure is easier to use.  1 nanometer or 3.94 * 10^-4 mils.  That second choice looks a little scary.  I'm not sure what your getting at by saying the nanometer isn't an official unit.  It's a legitimate member of the metric system that's used by scientists and engineers. 


Good God man!  Are you crazy?!

Think of the engineers whose jobs revolve around converting to and from BESU (British Engineering System of Units) to SI (Le Systeme International) to USCS (United States Conventional System) to MKS (meter-kilogram-second) to Lbm (pound mass) to Lbf (pound force).  Thousands of engineers doing differential eqautions and Laplacian Transforms for food.  Blasphemy I say! 

And what of us Engineering students who spend hours memorizing conversion tables and doing conversions?  What will we do with all of this newfound free time?  I'll tell you what'll happen, they'll just go out and join "Engineering  Gangs" and do illegal mathematics.  The Horror!

As for me, you can take my Jacks and Jills and Bushells and sheckels and coombes and furlongs over my dead body!

Natural System of Units now, Natural System of Units FOREVER!

LOL!  I wouldn't mind just switching over to SI since it's practically the same thing as the more barbaric version of the metric system only the base unit lengths are based on different things.  I'll take any system that is decimal oriented and uses a base of ten over something like this:

Mil = diameter of a hair
finger = 3/4 in
thumb= 1 in
hand = 4 fingers + 1 thumb = 4in
span = 2 hands = 8 in
foot = 3 hands = 12 thumbs =  12 in
cubit = 24 fingers = 18 inches
yard = 2 cubits = 3 feet = 1 pace
fathom = 2 yards = 6 feet=arms extended fingertip to fingertip
mile = 1760 paces
league = 3 miles = dist. a man can walk in an hour
acre = area a man and mule plow in a day
farm = 160 acres = area man and mule can plow in a year
township = 144 (a gross) farms
pound = the average amount of food a person could eat in a sitting (maybe not here in america   )
talent = 66 pounds = amount average man can carry continosly

Have mercy!  :0

#262 Re: Not So Free Chat » Mars Society red and blue crescents flag - ridiculous flag » 2002-10-28 18:39:46

*Hmmmm, I don't know about that, Byron.  If red, green, and blue for the colors of the Marsian flag is an echo of KSR's novels, persons opposed to terraforming won't like it. 

--Cindy

At least it's not a swastika.  *waits to receive 50 page history of the swastika by Clark*

#263 Re: Life support systems » Optimal air pressures.. - Which is best? More O2 or more pressure? » 2002-10-28 18:21:37

I'm kind of leaning toward not having more oxygen.  It could create a problem with flammability if the proportion of oxygen is too high.  Of course it's possible NASA has solved this problem already or I doubt if they'd be using such high oxygen proportions.  But just using my gut, I think it'd be better to use gases in proportions that we're used to here on Earth since that combination of gases seems safer.  I'd hate to see someone brushing the Martian dust off their suit only to cause an electrostatic discharge and blow up the hab (yeah I know they'll use vaccuums or something for that purpose, just a figure of speech. smile )

#264 Re: Unmanned probes » Payloads - Sending them before a manned mission? » 2002-10-28 18:11:54

If they plan to send extra habs to the surface of Mars as a redundancy measure in the case of emergency, I think it could be a good idea to stock the spare hab full of things that might not be necessary but could help make life more bearable for the people who land there.  You could just replace the mass of the people that would normally be there with other things.

#265 Re: Interplanetary transportation » The Pluto missions » 2002-10-28 18:04:20

And I think our friend with the axe in his head may have to reconsider his largely unsubstantiated hypothesis that groups of eskimos have taken up residence there, too!!

Oh no, I don't think he could bare the news.  He's probably been waiting his entire life to meet the Eskimos that live up there. smile

#266 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Which of these missions would you prefer - take a pick » 2002-10-27 22:45:39

Yeah I change my mind to mission 4. And make that 25 people because I'm leaving this planet to. smile

#267 Re: Not So Free Chat » Mars Society red and blue crescents flag - ridiculous flag » 2002-10-27 22:37:35

Maybe Dickbill was thinking of the New Mars crescents which are blue and red.  smile  And don't touch the New Mars logo, it's perfect as is even though I understand Dickbill's point that it might have some similiarities to certain flags.

#268 Re: Interplanetary transportation » The Pluto missions » 2002-10-27 22:23:11

Actually, since my last post here, I've been thinking about Earth's oceans being a heat sink and affecting our climate. It occurred to me that maybe Pluto has oceans too.
   I know they've been hypothesising that Titan could have seas of liquid hydrocarbons and 'continents' of granite-hard water ice.
   What kind of hydrocarbon, if any, could remain liquid under Plutonian conditions? I was wondering whether Pluto might have hydrocarbon oceans which, for at least the perihelion part of its orbit, would be liquid, but which might largely freeze during the aphelion phase?
   Such a freeze/thaw cycle could provide a mechanism for the seasonal temperature lag we're seeing.

Wow, imagine landing on Pluto to find a giant ocean reflecting pinpoints of starlight off its calm surface.  I think it's conceivable there could be oceans of liquid methane on Pluto at some point in it's orbit since its atmosphere is composed of gaseous methane.  I sometimes wonder if the global warming might not have something to do with the dark/light areas that have been observed on Pluto.  Perhaps Pluto's tilt gives more of these dark areas more exposure to the sun during its retreat into winter and allows it to warm up some.  That theory probably makes no sense , but I thought I'd just throw it out there. smile

*Erm...you probably know more about this sort of thing than I do, Shaun, but Pluto is so far "out there."  Any water would be frozen solid, I should think.  Is there any sort of natural chemical that would prevent absolute freezing in such severe coldness?

Certainly, heck Pluto's atmosphere is still a gas it's not even to the liquid stage yet even though it'll probably just condense straight into a solid.  But if you mean during Pluto's absolute coldest moments, I'm not sure.  Pluto gets down to around 30 Kelvins during it's coldest moments, just a hair above absolute zero which is the temperature at which all molecular motion ceases.  Methane and Nitrogen become liquids at around 80 kelvins but I'm not sure what their freezing points are even though it must be above 30 Kelvins since they freeze on Pluto.  Anyways, I think it'd be a sight to be standing there on Pluto watching flakes of "snow" come gently falling down to the surface.  It'd be a Zen moment. smile
smile

#269 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Which of these missions would you prefer - take a pick » 2002-10-27 01:24:42

I don't remember which article I cut and pasted these from but if you could choose a mission from these three which one one would you choose?

-----------------------------------------
(1) A mission to drop three entry probes into different parts of Jupiter's atmosphere simultaneously to make measurements at a much greater depth than the Galileo entry probe did -- after which the main carrier spacecraft will put itself into a polar orbit around Jupiter to further study the planet's atmospheric makeup and (through gravity and magnetic data) its internal structure.
(2) A mission to land a spacecraft on Venus which would hastily grab a surface sample and then inflate a heat-resistant balloon to loft itself back into the planet's safely cool cloud layer to analyze the sample in leisurely detail (as well as doing atmospheric studies).
(3) A craft to rendezvous with a comet, land very briefly on its nucleus to scoop up a 1-kg sample, and return it to Earth (with the sample being kept cool enough to prevent its water ice from melting, although the lower-temperature ices in it would be allowed to vaporize to cut the mission's cost, with their gases being preserved in the sample container).
--------------------------------

I'd choose mission two if the probe had cameras that could survive the crushing conditions of Venus.  I want to see lakes of lead and the nature of its landscape in visible wavelengths and maybe a lucky glimpse of the Wild West town that exists there as reported in a popular tabloid a few years ago. But if cameras weren't allowed I'd vote for number three, the comet sample return mission.

#270 Re: Mars Society International » Very Cunning Amendments - Prototype Settlements Preempted » 2002-10-27 01:03:55

I ditto what Shaun wrote about Byron's message.  I think the key to living on Mars is creating suits that don't make you feel like Stay Puft the Marshmallow Man.  We should work to create spacesuits that would be something like wetsuits that would work via mechanical pressure rather than air pressure.  They need to be highly comfortable and maintain as much of our natural flexibility as they can.  I'm not sure what to do about the helmet but it should be designed in such a way that it doesn't feel confining to a crushing point.  On Mars going outdoors will be far less of an ordeal than going outdoors on the Moon so I think it might be possible to relax a lot of burdensome spacesuit requirements.

#271 Re: Not So Free Chat » Diversity » 2002-10-27 00:53:47

*Sounds like the housing section in western Des Moines, abutting onto Interstate 35...those houses all look alike, so much so that my dad once quipped, "I wonder if the people who live there ever get confused about which house is theirs?"

--Cindy

I've done that with cars before.  I have a bad time remembering where I park in big parking lots and more than once I've found myself trying to get into somebody else's car.  God forbid the day my key actually fits!

#272 Re: Not So Free Chat » Metric Conversion - Pros and Cons » 2002-10-27 00:49:12

So some of you American guys'd rather measure your erection's in centimetres, than inches? Hehe. I like inches for THAT measurement. Hehe.

Decimeter could work for that particular purpose. smile  One decimeter is roughly equivalent to four inches so we can all just default to X decimeters.  But I agree, inches just makes it sound bigger.  Maybe the imperial system can be kept on file for specialized uses. big_smile

#273 Re: Unmanned probes » Mars 2001 Lander - The one that never launched » 2002-10-27 00:38:54

Amazing!!
   Such an indictment of the politico/economic climate in the biggest space agency on Earth, when fear is the driving force instead of the wonder of discovery!

Even though I don't usually find myself trying to defend NASA, I think NASA is a victim of politicians and a public that has a low tolerance of failure and has proved itself willing to axe the budget in moments of disaster.  People need to realize that when your pushing the technological envelope and doing things that haven't been done before or aren't routine there's going to be a greater chance for failure regardless of all the steps you take to insure success.  I think NASA would be a lot more willing to get risky if they didn't risk a hostile public and Congress pointing fingers of death in their direction after every mishap.  Of course I'm not defending NASA get sloppy either.  So if the public and their representatives wouldn't breathe down NASA's throat over every little mishap maybe NASA would be more willing to try riskier ventures.  Well that's my two cents at least.  I'm sure someone will blow my viewpoints to pieces. smile

#274 Re: Interplanetary transportation » The Pluto missions » 2002-10-27 00:14:22

*Phobos, can you hear me?

I'm surprised Phobos hasn't chimed in on this one.

I would actually like to see probes sent to Europa and Triton, to determine whether or not there's life in the waters beneath the ice.

--Cindy

ACK!  I don't visit New Mars for a day and I miss my chance for glory!  It looks like others have already beat me to the punch though, we gotta get to Pluto in a damn hurry before its atmosphere freezes out and just because it'd be nice to be alive by time it arrives!  Onward to Pluto!  big_smile

The 'glitch' I mentioned is that these measurements show Pluto's atmosphere is actually THICKENING quite substantially as Pluto recedes further from the sun!! This, of course was completely unexpected.

Actually it wasn't completely unexpected smile.  Here's a little snip I took from a news article.

"David Tholen, an astronomer at the University of Hawaii who measured the size of Pluto in the late 1980s using a series of occultations and eclipses involving Pluto's satellite, noted that even though Pluto was closest to the sun in 1989, a warming trend 13 years later shouldn't be unexpected. "It takes time for materials to warm up and cool off, which is why the hottest part of the day on Earth is usually around 2 or 3 p.m. rather than local noon, when sunlight is the most intense," Tholen said. Because Pluto's year is equal to about 250 Earth years, 13 years after Pluto's closest approach to the Sun is like 1:15 p.m. on Earth. "This warming trend on Pluto could easily last for another 13 years," Tholen estimated. "

So I guess Pluto is just adding miniscule amounts of heat to its retained "warmth" and rapidly beginning its descent into a freezing hell from there.  Or maybe the Eskimos that live there have resorted to burning coal for energy.  Who knows, if they launch the probe early enough maybe we'll know for sure. smile

#275 Re: First Words » hi Earthlings - greetings » 2002-10-24 23:14:07

Greetings alienbaby!  Judging from your message board Martians must be an eclectic bunch.  They even have Xbox!  smile

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