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#1 Re: Exploration to Settlement Creation » What Are The Best Settlement Sites on Mars? » Today 13:30:23

We could pick any location that we can land but if the resource for building are not there pick any location will cause failure.

Not only must the building resource must be present but easy for extraction and water.
Whether its basalt, Iron, or any other ore at high enough concentration.

Sands of basalt would make it easier to process but that is just one material to construct with.

Basalt sand is widespread on Mars, forming vast dark dunes, especially around the North Polar erg (Olympia Undae), where winds sculpt them into active patterns, and in regions like Meridiani Planum (seen by Opportunity) and near volcanoes like Syrtis Major, often appearing dark or blueish due to mineral composition, contrasting with the reddish dust and sometimes mixed with gypsum.

Key Locations & Features:
North Polar Region (Olympia Undae): A massive ring of basaltic (and some gypsum) sand dunes, some over 100 feet high, showing active movement and sublimation-driven "tree-like" streaks.
Meridiani Planum: Explored by the Opportunity rover, this area features basaltic sand grains, sometimes forming spherical aggregates, with distinct dark patches.
Syrtis Major: A large volcanic region where dark basaltic sand and rock are prominent, showcasing volcanic origins for the sand.
Impact Craters: Many craters expose underlying basalt layers, providing sources for sand that gets reworked by wind.

Characteristics:
Color: Dark, often appearing black or bluish in images due to volcanic minerals like olivine.
Formation: Created from volcanic eruptions and mechanical weathering, then shaped by wind (aeolian processes).
Activity: Dunes are very active, shifting significantly over time, influenced by seasonal frost and dry ice sublimation.

How it's Found:
Orbital imagery (like NASA's Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter (MRO) and its HiRISE camera) reveals large dune fields.
Rovers (Curiosity, Opportunity) analyze surface sands up close, confirming their basaltic composition

#4 Re: Exploration to Settlement Creation » KBD512 Biosphere structure of cast basalt » Today 06:38:53

Please start a wiki for all collected final design content.
we will use these discussions as the companion to gather questions to fill in content.

#5 Re: Not So Free Chat » Submarines general topic » Today 06:10:51

internal images to show how pipes, electrical and more are open to all within for base of mars construction.

https://pigboats.com/index.php?title=S- … cont_2.jpg


https://pigboats.com/index.php?title=S- … otor_2.jpg

Things have not changed all that much from these old images.

#6 Re: Exploration to Settlement Creation » Ring Habitat on Mars Doughnut Torus » Today 06:02:32

KBD512 needs to star the wiki document for constructing structure for a 1,000 crewed on Mars station to place all items as decided with in.

Just a reminder Calliban's dome has varied in population but the starting number is 1000 could only support 350 crew with life support for the size of of the 200m diameter parabolic 120m tall with probably 50 meters deep to house greenhouse, waste recovery and other such thing.

Deciding on shape structure is as you can see still is in concept.

Internal support is still unknown but if we are using submarine and aircraft construction for internal spaces then this is not a home style for civilians.

If we go with stainless steel ISOGRID then where is the source other than the build up of empty unused starship cargo ship which is in the neighborhood of 70MT of the ships hull and more. Other items can be removed and set aside for building.

The facts of mars for plumbing are going to be below the structures floor but inside the pressurized area hull of 0.1 M with depth of the floor depends on materials and where there is more floors above. ceiling are 2 meters tall with lighting 0.05M, electrical 0.05M, HAVC 0.3m set aside to keep these out of the way of the people with in. This layout repeats for the next and so on.

That means the proposed 125m^3 of pressurized volume for each family of 4 is a rectangle of 2.5 m tall with 5 m wide x 10 m long.

1,000 crew / 4 means 250 such rooms but that is not all of the internal requirement as hall ways are need on both side of these so that is 2.5 M x 1 M wide x 2 x 250 x 10 M = 62,500 cubic meter for living space regardless of shape for sleeping quarters.


Greenhouse volume for 1,000 need per single person is 2m x 4m x5m = 40 cubic meter x 1,000 = 40,000 cubic m volume to add to the sleeping quarters.

running total is 62,500 x 40,000 = 102,500 cubic meters

Volume of space still not complete


other things to consider are rest rooms, showers and Private Hygiene: ? sq meters per crew. or this not in the family room but in a common area

Exercise/Equipment: ? sq meters per crew. is this the a consolidated gym are like a planet fitness

Health/Medical Area: 23-28 sq meters per crew patient bed for monitoring, leave space for all side of bed

surgery suite and triage room for emergency care  ?

4 lights for each room but how many outlets for each as they may have a drop down desk area ?

current wiki for human waste management AI content plus we have the starship fuel tanks to make use of for this purpose.
A 4-person crew can generate up to 2,500 kg of waste in a one-year mission.
A 3-year, 8-person crew is projected to generate roughly 12,600 kg of inorganic waste alone.


Building a large-scale stainless steel isogrid dome on Mars to house 1,000 crew members requires an industrial-scale, multi-decade construction effort, focusing on in-situ resource utilization (ISRU) to minimize the immense cost of transporting materials from Earth.

Structural Design and Engineering Isogrid Structure: An isogrid—a triangular pattern of ribs—provides high stiffness-to-weight ratios, ideal for resisting the high tensile stresses of a pressurized dome against the near-vacuum of Mars.

Dome Sizing: To house 1,000 people, the structure would likely need to be a large, multi-hectare habitat, similar to "mega dome" concepts.

Dimensions: A 20-meter high, 24mm thick steel plate wall, bolstered by vertical stringers, can withstand internal pressure.

Anchoring: Large domes create immense upward pressure (approx. 10 tonnes per \(m^{2}\)). The dome must be anchored deeply into the ground, likely using the weight of Martian regolith.

Construction Process and Materials Stainless Steel Sourcing: Stainless steel components can be fabricated on-site. Using locally sourced materials requires 40-50 years of development, involving heavy mining and smelting, with a 1-meter deep, 8x8 km pit of regolith necessary for material to sustain a large population's infrastructure.

Fabrication: Panels would be manufactured on Mars and welded in place to create a pressure-tight, airtight structure.

Prefabrication Limits: Due to transport constraints, domes cannot be brought in one piece; they must be constructed using modular, assembled components.

Protection: The steel shell must be shielded from radiation and micrometeoroids, typically by covering it with 1–3 meters of compacted Martian regolith.

Challenges and Considerations Atmospheric Pressure: The 78,000 tonnes of force on a 100-meter dome requires massive, specialized structural engineering.

Surface Conditions: Extreme cold and dust storms will hinder construction, requiring durable, automated robotic equipment.

Alternative Approaches: While steel is possible, some experts suggest that 3D-printed regolith, ice, or carbon fiber might be more efficient in terms of weight and material, as bringing steel from Earth is too costly.

Redundancy: To prevent single-point failures, the habitat should consist of multiple interconnected domes rather than one single, massive structure

Stainless steel isogrid dome construction on Mars offers a robust method for creating large-volume, pressurized habitats, leveraging high-strength, lightweight, and durable materials that can be transported from Earth or potentially manufactured on-site. Isogrid structures (triangular, lattice-reinforced, or sandwich panels) are engineered for maximum stiffness, providing the necessary pressure vessel strength to withstand the high-pressure differential (approx. 14.6 PSI) between a breathable, pressurized interior and the near-vacuum, low-pressure (0.1 PSI) Martian environment.
Key Aspects of Stainless Steel Isogrid Dome Construction on Mars
Structural Integrity: Isogrid designs, often used in aerospace for their exceptional strength-to-weight ratio, are considered for large domes to manage the massive tension loads on the dome surface. These designs use stiffeners to prevent the panels from "ballooning".
Material Advantages: Stainless steel is deemed more cost-effective to produce and, for certain applications, more reliable than inflatable alternatives. SpaceX, for instance, has developed technologies to work with stainless steel for large pressure vessels.
Construction Process:
Modular Assembly: Domes would likely be constructed from smaller, manageable panels rather than being sent as one large unit, given cargo constraints (e.g., SpaceX's 12m diameter limit).
Welding and Joining: Electron beam welding or similar advanced, automated techniques would be used to join panels, taking advantage of the vacuum of space (or, by extension, the Martian atmosphere) for high-quality welds.
Foundations: The structure would likely be anchored firmly into the Martian regolith to withstand internal pressures and environmental stressors.
Environmental Protection: While the steel provides the pressure vessel, additional layers are needed for radiation shielding and to handle the extreme temperature differences (around -63°C average).
Regolith Shielding: Covering the dome with 3–5 meters of local soil (regolith) is proposed to protect against high radiation levels and micrometeoroid impacts.
Hybrid Designs: Using a "thermos" style, with an inner pressurized steel hull and an outer shell, is a potential design to manage thermal and structural loads simultaneously.
Potential Challenges:
Massive Pressure Load: A large, unburied dome would need to be extremely heavy to prevent it from bursting. This requires significant anchoring and material strength.
Transport Costs: Moving large amounts of steel from Earth is expensive, necessitating, in the long term, on-site, in-situ resource utilization (ISRU) to create construction materials.
Stainless steel isogrid domes are a viable, high-tech option, often discussed in parallel with other techniques like 3D-printed ice habitats or underground, excavated, or "buried," in-situ, "dome-on-a-crater" concepts

Constructing a stainless steel isogrid dome on Mars to maintain an internal atmosphere of 0.5 bar (approx. 7.25 psi, similar to Apollo-era spacecraft) is an engineered solution designed to balance high structural efficiency with the need to withstand intense internal tensile stress. At this pressure, the dome is primarily a pressure vessel, requiring superior anchorage to prevent it from lifting or buckling.

1. Structural Design & Advantages (Isogrid)
An isogrid structure—a triangular, lattice-like reinforcement on the interior of the skin—is ideal for a Mars dome because it offers high bending stiffness with minimal material weight.
Tensile Strength: Because the 0.5 bar internal pressure far exceeds the 0.006 bar external pressure, the dome is under constant, significant tension. Isogrid structures efficiently manage these hoop stresses.
Material Selection: Stainless steel is favored for its high strength-to-weight ratio, ease of welding/prefabrication on-site, and high cryogenic strength at low temperatures.
Shape Optimization: While geodomes are common, low-pressure Mars environments might favor "egg-like" or flatter shell geometries to better distribute the internal pressure loads.

2. Construction Methodology on Mars
Constructing such a structure requires automated, robotic assistance to handle hazardous, low-pressure, and cold conditions.
Prefabrication and Welding: Stainless steel panels can be pre-manufactured on Earth and transported, then welded together on-site. Welding is considered feasible for stainless steel compared to other materials like carbon fiber.
Anchorage: The dome must be heavily anchored to the Martian surface to prevent it from lifting off, requiring foundation engineering or covering the dome with several meters of regolith (soil) for ballast and radiation shielding.
In-Situ Resource Utilization (ISRU): Long-term construction can leverage ISRU by producing steel on Mars using local iron oxide and carbon, although this is a long-term goal.

3. Key Challenges at 0.5 Bar
Pressure Management: The dome must maintain its structural integrity under constant outward pressure, necessitating robust sealing against air loss.
Material Embrittlement: Although stainless steel has good low-temperature properties, it must be carefully selected to avoid becoming brittle in extreme cold.
Dust Accumulation: Abrasive Martian dust can settle on the dome, reducing solar gain and requiring maintenance.
Radiation Protection: While 0.5 bar of pressure provides some, it is insufficient to block harmful cosmic radiation; therefore, a covering of regolith is often necessary.

4. Comparison with Alternatives
vs. Rigid Domes: Stainless steel isogrid provides superior strength over standard rigid domes but is heavier to transport.
vs. Inflatable Domes: While lighter, inflatable structures (like the NASA Ice Home concept) require thicker insulation layers to prevent freezing and, often, a protective outer shell.
vs. Cut-and-Cover: Using buried or "cut and cover" techniques is often preferred for long-term, high-pressure habitation to minimize tension, whereas isogrid domes are excellent for high-volume work/living spaces.
A 0.5 bar environment represents a balance between the high cost of maintaining a 1-bar Earth-like atmosphere and the metabolic needs of humans, making it a viable, high-efficiency compromise for Martian habitation

Yes, an isogrid structure made from flat stainless steel sheets is a viable concept for large Martian habitats, offering high strength-to-weight with triangular ribs from single sheets, ideal for withstanding Martian pressure/loads while being potentially manufacturable (even 3D printed) in-situ or from pre-fab, balancing lightweight needs with Mars's harsh environment, though material processing and thermal swings remain key challenges.
Why Isogrids Work for Mars:
Strength & Lightness: Isogrids, essentially thin skins with stiffening ribs (often triangular), provide high structural stiffness and strength while minimizing mass, crucial for space structures.
Single-Sheet Fabrication: They can be machined or printed from single sheets, reducing complex assembly and potential leak points compared to honeycomb structures.
Isotropic Properties: The triangular pattern makes them behave like an isotropic material (same properties in all directions), offering uniform performance.
Material Adaptability: While traditionally metal, new additive manufacturing allows printing composite isogrids, and stainless steel offers durability.
Stainless Steel & Mars:
Durability: Stainless steel offers excellent resistance to corrosion and extreme temperatures, making it suitable for the harsh Martian environment.
Manufacturability: While requiring significant energy, it's a known material, and techniques like additive manufacturing (3D printing) are being explored for creating these structures on Mars using local resources or brought materials.
Challenges & Solutions:
Thermal Swings: Extreme temperature variations on Mars (e.g., 20°C to -73°C) can affect material adhesion and performance, requiring software/design solutions.
In-Situ Resource Utilization (ISRU): Processing Martian regolith or imported steel into printable/formable sheets for these structures is a major engineering hurdle.
Habitat Design: Integrating isogrid panels with other systems (like regolith shielding for radiation) and ensuring airtightness for large volumes remains complex.
In essence, an isogrid made from flat stainless steel sheets is a strong structural choice, but its practical application on Mars hinges on advanced manufacturing and material science to overcome thermal and processing challenges

#7 Re: Exploration to Settlement Creation » Ring Habitat on Mars Doughnut Torus » Yesterday 20:10:44

We launched the evening with discussions of kbd512's vision of a ring/dome habitat

SpaceNut joined  in with numerous suggestions for materials and procedures.

We settled on a population to serve: 1000

That is a nice round number to work with.  SpaceNut agreed to consult his AI friends to see if any of them can work out the requirements for all the equipment needed to sustain that population.

We are in need of fresh water and sewerage systems, and the equipment to recover fresh water from the sewerage.

SpaceNut is in an industry that deals with humans in closed life support environments.

Hopefully he will be able to help kbd512 size the complex.

Kbd512 gave us an expectation that some support systems would be inside the building and some outside.

To build for 1,000 a dome with isogrid structure of mars materials to use and do develop of stainless insitu materials is going to be a 40 year plus plan involving heavy mining and smelting, with a 1-meter deep, 8x8 km pit of regolith necessary for material to sustain a large population's infrastructure.

Leaving even more time for getting the cast basalt processing for insertion into the grid.

#9 Re: Exploration to Settlement Creation » WIKI Project Designing for Mars » Yesterday 19:55:53

make a building that can house 1,000 crew is just a multiplier for what needs to be setup for all space requires from power, life support, greenhouse, medical care, ect these are not established for mars or for the moon in there entirety.

Picking any number to support any person is going to fail for any construction when quotative numbers are not proven.

That's like saying you only need 8 gallons of water to drink for the whole mission with none on the other end once you are there.

Ignoring facts of who, what, where, when and more 20 questions are blank.

The facts of mars for plumbing are going to be below the structures floor but inside the pressurized area hull of 0.1 M with depth of the floor depends on materials and where there is more floors above. ceiling are 2 meters tall with lighting 0.05M, electrical 0.05M, HAVC 0.3m set aside to keep these out of the way of the people with in. This layout repeats for the next and so on.

That means the proposed 125m³ per pressurized volume for each family of 4 is a rectangle of 2.5 m tall with 5 m wide x 10 m long.


1,000 crew / 4 means 250 such rooms but that is not all of the internal requirement as hall ways are need on both side of these so that is 2.5 M x 1 M wide x 2 x 250 x 10 M = 62,500 cubic meter for living space regardless of shape for sleeping quarters.

Private Hygiene: ~2.36 m³ per crew.

Exercise/Equipment: ~3.06 m³ per crew.

Health/Medical Area: ~1.06 m³ per crew. For long-term, permanent, or expanding settlements, the available volume can increase through local construction (e.g., using regolith for radiation shielding), but the initial landing, transit, and surface habitats will likely operate close to the minimum 25 m³/person requirement

#10 Re: Exploration to Settlement Creation » KBD512 Biosphere structure of cast basalt » Yesterday 19:54:29

Isogrid technology, which involves creating rigid, lightweight triangular-stiffened structures, is a critical technique for designing space-hardened habitats and shells on Mars. While specific "plug-and-play" software labeled "Isogrid Maker for Mars" does not exist, aerospace and structural engineers use several advanced CAD and simulation tools to model these, often utilizing additive manufacturing (3D printing) for implementation.
Key Software and Modeling Techniques for Mars Domes:
Autodesk Fusion 360: Used for parametric modeling of isogrid structures. It allows engineers to create, test, and adapt the geometry of triangular ribs, which is critical for optimization.
Continuous Composites (CF3D): NASA-selected technology that uses advanced robotics to print continuous carbon fiber in isogrid rib patterns for space applications.
Finite Element Analysis (FEA) Software: Tools like ANSYS or NASTRAN are used to simulate the structural loads (internal pressure vs. external atmosphere) on isogrid domes to ensure they can withstand Martian conditions.
Roboze One+400: A 3D printer specifically used in research for producing high-performance, lightweight isogrid structures.
Geodesic Dome Calculators: For the basic geometry of polyhedral domes, tools that calculate chord factors and strut lengths are used.
Applications on Mars:
3D Printed Shells: Research suggests using 3D-printable inner spherical shells and outer parabolic domes to protect habitats from the Martian climate.
Regolith Manipulation: Techniques like sintering or microwave melting of Martian regolith are planned for creating geodesic domes.
Structural Efficiency: Isogrid designs are used to minimize mass while maximizing pressure resistance, necessary for transporting materials from Earth or using indigenous resources.
Commonly Used Tools:
CAD: Autodesk Fusion 360, SolidWorks, CATIA.
Analysis: ANSYS, Abaqus, Altair HyperWorks.
Manufacturing: Specialized 3D printing software (slicers for robotic arms).
These tools are part of a broader approach to designing and testing Martian habitat structures, which must be both lightweight for transit and rigid enough to handle the 101 kPa pressure differential on Mars

#11 Re: Exploration to Settlement Creation » Ring Habitat on Mars Doughnut Torus » Yesterday 19:53:20

Isogrid technology, which involves creating rigid, lightweight triangular-stiffened structures, is a critical technique for designing space-hardened habitats and shells on Mars. While specific "plug-and-play" software labeled "Isogrid Maker for Mars" does not exist, aerospace and structural engineers use several advanced CAD and simulation tools to model these, often utilizing additive manufacturing (3D printing) for implementation.
Key Software and Modeling Techniques for Mars Domes:
Autodesk Fusion 360: Used for parametric modeling of isogrid structures. It allows engineers to create, test, and adapt the geometry of triangular ribs, which is critical for optimization.
Continuous Composites (CF3D): NASA-selected technology that uses advanced robotics to print continuous carbon fiber in isogrid rib patterns for space applications.
Finite Element Analysis (FEA) Software: Tools like ANSYS or NASTRAN are used to simulate the structural loads (internal pressure vs. external atmosphere) on isogrid domes to ensure they can withstand Martian conditions.
Roboze One+400: A 3D printer specifically used in research for producing high-performance, lightweight isogrid structures.
Geodesic Dome Calculators: For the basic geometry of polyhedral domes, tools that calculate chord factors and strut lengths are used.
Applications on Mars:
3D Printed Shells: Research suggests using 3D-printable inner spherical shells and outer parabolic domes to protect habitats from the Martian climate.
Regolith Manipulation: Techniques like sintering or microwave melting of Martian regolith are planned for creating geodesic domes.
Structural Efficiency: Isogrid designs are used to minimize mass while maximizing pressure resistance, necessary for transporting materials from Earth or using indigenous resources.
Commonly Used Tools:
CAD: Autodesk Fusion 360, SolidWorks, CATIA.
Analysis: ANSYS, Abaqus, Altair HyperWorks.
Manufacturing: Specialized 3D printing software (slicers for robotic arms).
These tools are part of a broader approach to designing and testing Martian habitat structures, which must be both lightweight for transit and rigid enough to handle the 101 kPa pressure differential on Mars

These are the quick google of software to use in a isogrid construction.

#12 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » OpenFOAM » Yesterday 18:50:38

Sounds like progress.

Hopefully this might help

Calculating thrust in a Nuclear Thermal Propulsion (NTP) system—where hydrogen gas is heated by a reactor and expanded through a nozzle—requires determining the energy added to the hydrogen, the resulting mass flow rate, and the exit velocity. 

Core Equations The fundamental equation for thrust (\(F\)) is:\(F=\.{m}\cdot v_{e}+(p_{e}-p_{a})A_{e}\)Where: \(\.{m}\) = mass flow rate (kg/s)\(v_{e}\) = exit velocity of exhaust (m/s)\(p_{e},p_{a}\) = exit pressure and ambient pressure (Pa)\(A_{e}\) = exit area of the nozzle (\(m^{2}\)) For a simplified estimation, if the nozzle is perfectly expanded (\(p_{e}=p_{a}\)), the formula simplifies to:\(F=\.{m}\cdot v_{e}\)

Step-by-Step Calculation Guide 
1. Determine Mass Flow Rate (\(\.{m}\))You must know how much hydrogen is passing through the tube per second. If not given, this is determined by the input pressure, pipe diameter, and density.\(\.{m}=\rho \cdot A\cdot v\)(where \(\rho \) is density, \(A\) is cross-sectional area of tube, \(v\) is flow velocity) 

2. Calculate Exit Velocity (\(v_{e}\)) from WattageThe electrical power (wattage, \(P\)) or thermal power heats the hydrogen, converting electrical energy into kinetic energy (assuming high efficiency):\(P=\eta \cdot \frac{1}{2}\.{m}v_{e}^{2}\)Assuming an efficiency (\(\eta \)) of the system, rearranging for \(v_{e}\):\(v_{e}=\sqrt{\frac{2P}{\eta \.{m}}}\)Note: In actual NTP, power is thermal (MW) from a reactor, not just electric wattage. 

3. Apply Tube Length (Thermal Efficiency & Pressure Drop) Heating (Length): Longer tubes allow higher hydrogen temperature (\(T_{exit}\)) up to material limits, increasing \(v_{e}\) and Specific Impulse (\(I_{sp}\)).Friction (Length): Longer tubes increase frictional pressure losses (\(-\Delta p\)), which can reduce exit velocity.Effect: The length must be optimized to maximize \(T_{exit}\) without excessive pressure drop. A longer tube generally increases the temperature and thus the thrust, provided the heat input continues along the length. 

4. Final Thrust CalculationOnce \(v_{e}\) and \(\.{m}\) are determined, substitute them back into \(F=\.{m}\cdot v_{e}\). Key Parameters at NTP (Normal Temperature and Pressure) Propellant: Hydrogen (\(H_{2}\))Efficiency: Realistic NTP systems aim for high temperatures, often resulting in specific impulses (\(I_{sp}\)) around 800–900 seconds

Thrust Calculation (NTP) based on Power and Tube Dimensions To calculate the thrust (\(F\)) generated by a nuclear thermal propulsion (NTP) system using a hydrogen tube, you need to calculate the mass flow rate (\(\.{m}\)) based on the heating of the hydrogen (wattage) and determine the exit velocity (\(V_{e}\)) based on the tube length and operating temperature. Fundamental Equations

Thrust (F) = m_dot * V_eMass Flow Rate (m_dot) = P_in / Δh

 Step-by-Step Calculation Formula Determine Exhaust Velocity (\(V_{e}\)):Assuming a simple, idealized expansion where the hydrogen is heated by a heat source:

V_e = sqrt( (2 * γ * R * T_chamber) / (γ - 1) )

\(\gamma \) = Ratio of specific heats for Hydrogen (~1.4)\(R\) = Specific gas constant for Hydrogen (4124 J/kg·K)\(T_{c}\) = Chamber temperature (K)Determine Mass Flow Rate (\(\.{m}\)):

m_dot = W / (Cp * ΔT)

\(W\) = Power/Wattage applied to the hydrogen (Watts)\(Cp\) = Specific heat capacity of Hydrogen (~14300 J/kg·K)\(\Delta T\) = Temperature increase of hydrogen (K)Calculate Thrust (\(F\)) in Newtons:

F = m_dot * V_e

 BBcode Formula for Inputting into Calculators 

[b]Thrust (N)[/b] = (Watts / (14300 * ΔT)) * sqrt( (2 * 1.4 * 4124 * T_chamber) / (1.4 - 1) )

 Variables Definitions Wattage (\(W\)): Total power input into the hydrogen gas.Tube Length (\(L\)): Affects the residence time and heating efficiency, typically increasing \(\Delta T\) and \(T_{c}\).\(T_{c}\): Chamber temperature (K).\(\Delta T\): Temperature rise of hydrogen (K). Note: Hydrogen NTP systems typically achieve a specific impulse (Isp) of 850–1000 s. High thrust-to-weight ratios are possible compared to electric propulsion.

#13 Re: Exploration to Settlement Creation » Ring Habitat on Mars Doughnut Torus » Yesterday 18:17:57

Basalt sand processing is a multi-stage industrial process, rather than a single-step action. Because basalt is an extremely hard, high-density rock (\(2.8-3.0\text{\ g/cm}^{3}\)), processing focuses on efficient, multi-stage crushing, typically lasting for a few minutes per batch, but operating continuously. Basalt Sand Processing Time Chart Note: This represents the mechanical processing time of rock-to-sand in a typical industrial crusher. 

  • Production Stage OperationEstimated Time (Duration)
    1. FeedingVibrating Feeder (removes debris)Continuous (immediate)
    2. Primary CrushingJaw Crusher (\(>300\text{mm}\rightarrow <50\text{mm}\))Seconds to Minutes
    3. Secondary/FineCone Crusher (\(50\text{mm}\rightarrow \text{smaller}\))Seconds to Minutes
    4. Sand MakingVSI Crusher (shapes and grinds)Seconds to Minutes
    5. ScreeningSeparating particle sizesContinuous (concurrent)
    6. Washing/DewateringWashing & Drying (if wet process)10–30+ minutes
    Total Cycle TimeRaw Rock \(\rightarrow \) Finished Sand\(<1\text{\ hour\ per\ batch}\)

Key Processing Steps & Considerations
Crushing Technology: Due to the hardness of basalt, laminated principle crushing equipment is recommended to minimize wear and tear.
Production Volume: Large-scale, high-capacity plants (e.g., 350-400 TPH) are common for basalt, focusing on creating construction aggregate, asphalt material, and manufactured sand.
Dry vs. Wet Process: Dry, vertical shaft impact (VSI) crushers are often used to create a uniform particle size, while wet processes are used to wash and remove fine dust.
Performance Metrics: The process aims for high efficiency, with a high crushing rate and low operational costs

[table]
[tr][td][b]Process Step[/b][/td][td][b]Description[/b][/td][td][b]Estimated Time[/b][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1. Quarrying/Mining[/td][td]Extracting raw basalt rock[/td][td]1-3 Days[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]2. Primary Crushing[/td][td]Jaw crusher reduces rock size[/td][td]2-5 Hours[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]3. Secondary/Fine Crushing[/td][td]Cone crusher/Impact crusher[/td][td]3-6 Hours[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]4. Screening[/td][td]Separating by particle size[/td][td]1-2 Hours[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]5. Washing/Drying[/td][td]Removing fines/Moisture control[/td][td]4-12 Hours (varies by drying method)[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]6. Bagging/Shipping[/td][td]Packaging and dispatch[/td][td]1-2 Days[/td][/tr]
[/table] 

Typical Production Metrics
Production Capability: 154,000 T/month (system capacity).
Throughput: 30–700+ t/h (depending on line size).
Basalt Hardness: High (139-185 MPa) requires heavy duty equipment.

Basalt Aggregate Processing

300tph Basalt making sand production line

Basics in Minerals Processing

#14 Re: Exploration to Settlement Creation » KBD512 Biosphere structure of cast basalt » Yesterday 18:16:52

Basalt sand processing is a multi-stage industrial process, rather than a single-step action. Because basalt is an extremely hard, high-density rock (\(2.8-3.0\text{\ g/cm}^{3}\)), processing focuses on efficient, multi-stage crushing, typically lasting for a few minutes per batch, but operating continuously. Basalt Sand Processing Time Chart Note: This represents the mechanical processing time of rock-to-sand in a typical industrial crusher. 

  • Production Stage OperationEstimated Time (Duration)
    1. FeedingVibrating Feeder (removes debris)Continuous (immediate)
    2. Primary CrushingJaw Crusher (\(>300\text{mm}\rightarrow <50\text{mm}\))Seconds to Minutes
    3. Secondary/FineCone Crusher (\(50\text{mm}\rightarrow \text{smaller}\))Seconds to Minutes
    4. Sand MakingVSI Crusher (shapes and grinds)Seconds to Minutes
    5. ScreeningSeparating particle sizesContinuous (concurrent)
    6. Washing/DewateringWashing & Drying (if wet process)10–30+ minutes
    Total Cycle TimeRaw Rock \(\rightarrow \) Finished Sand\(<1\text{\ hour\ per\ batch}\)

Key Processing Steps & Considerations
Crushing Technology: Due to the hardness of basalt, laminated principle crushing equipment is recommended to minimize wear and tear.
Production Volume: Large-scale, high-capacity plants (e.g., 350-400 TPH) are common for basalt, focusing on creating construction aggregate, asphalt material, and manufactured sand.
Dry vs. Wet Process: Dry, vertical shaft impact (VSI) crushers are often used to create a uniform particle size, while wet processes are used to wash and remove fine dust.
Performance Metrics: The process aims for high efficiency, with a high crushing rate and low operational costs

[table]
[tr][td][b]Process Step[/b][/td][td][b]Description[/b][/td][td][b]Estimated Time[/b][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1. Quarrying/Mining[/td][td]Extracting raw basalt rock[/td][td]1-3 Days[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]2. Primary Crushing[/td][td]Jaw crusher reduces rock size[/td][td]2-5 Hours[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]3. Secondary/Fine Crushing[/td][td]Cone crusher/Impact crusher[/td][td]3-6 Hours[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]4. Screening[/td][td]Separating by particle size[/td][td]1-2 Hours[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]5. Washing/Drying[/td][td]Removing fines/Moisture control[/td][td]4-12 Hours (varies by drying method)[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]6. Bagging/Shipping[/td][td]Packaging and dispatch[/td][td]1-2 Days[/td][/tr]
[/table] 

Typical Production Metrics
Production Capability: 154,000 T/month (system capacity).
Throughput: 30–700+ t/h (depending on line size).
Basalt Hardness: High (139-185 MPa) requires heavy duty equipment.

Basalt Aggregate Processing

300tph Basalt making sand production line

Basics in Minerals Processing

#15 Re: Meta New Mars » Housekeeping » Yesterday 17:47:16

Rather than shape more information of Basalt forming blocks from hard rock or from sands if site present as I included in the topics.

As 5 days plus for single blocks means we are not building very much for each processed batch.

Basalt Aggregate Processing

300tph Basalt making sand production line

Basics in Minerals Processing

#16 Re: Not So Free Chat » Greenland » Yesterday 17:44:42

If all bases come home, that means we are headed to be isolationism once more and we know what happened after we were a nation on that course what happened.

National isolationism is a foreign policy where a country avoids political, military, and sometimes economic alliances and involvement with other nations, focusing instead on domestic issues and self-reliance, exemplified historically by the U.S. under Washington's Farewell Address, aiming for neutrality and avoiding "foreign entanglements". While often seeking economic engagement, it emphasizes non-intervention in foreign wars and disputes, though it can manifest through trade restrictions (protectionism) or diplomatic detachment.

Key Characteristics
Avoidance of Alliances: Refusal to join binding military pacts or international agreements that might draw the nation into foreign conflicts.
Non-Intervention: Staying out of other nations' wars and political disputes, a concept rooted in George Washington's warning.
Self-Reliance: Focusing national efforts on internal development and security.
Economic Policies: Can include protectionist tariffs to shield domestic industries from foreign competition.
Historical Example: United States
Founding Era: Early U.S. policy, guided by Washington, sought commercial ties but political detachment from Europe.
19th Century: Maintained political isolation while expanding territory.
Interwar Period (1930s): Strong isolationist sentiment, reinforced by the Great Depression and WWI trauma, leading to Neutrality Acts.
End of Era: The attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941 effectively ended this period of broad isolationism

#17 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Natural hydrogen (known as white hydrogen or gold hydrogen) » Yesterday 16:01:26

Researchers discover massive hydrogen system beneath the Pacific Ocean

Far below the surface of the western Pacific Ocean, scientists have uncovered a geological system that reshapes how you may think about Earth’s hidden energy potential. Deep beneath thousands of meters of water, a massive network of ancient underground structures points to the presence of large amounts of natural hydrogen formed deep within the planet.

Hydrogen is the most common element in the solar system and a promising clean fuel. Yet on Earth, large natural stores have been difficult to find. Most hydrogen used today is produced through industrial methods that rely on fossil fuels. This new discovery suggests the planet itself may generate far more hydrogen than once believed.

Researchers from the Institute of Oceanology of the Chinese Academy of Sciences, working with international collaborators, identified the system on the east Caroline Plate, west of the Mussau Trench. The team analyzed a vast group of underground formations that show clear signs of intense hydrogen driven activity in the distant past.

The Mussau Trench is not active today. It began forming about 25 million years ago and has long since stopped moving. Despite this quiet history, the seafloor nearby holds dramatic clues of powerful forces that once shaped the region.

The scientists discovered a cluster of huge cylindrical structures known as breccia pipes. They named the formation the Kunlun pipe swarm. Each pipe measures between 450 and 1,800 meters wide, making them some of the largest known structures of their kind beneath the ocean.

These pipes are filled with broken rock fragments, showing signs of violent formation. Their steep walls and layered shapes resemble kimberlite pipes found on land, which are created by explosive geological events. Several smaller bowl shaped craters sit within the larger pipes, suggesting repeated bursts of energy over time.

Based on energy estimates, forming structures this large would require explosive force equal to millions of tons of TNT. Scientists believe hydrogen provided that power.

Traces of a Hydrogen Driven System
The team also found clear evidence of hydrothermal activity tied to hydrogen rich fluids. Hydrothermal fluids are hot mixtures of water and minerals that rise through cracks in the Earth’s crust. In the Kunlun pipes, these fluids once sprayed through tiny channels along pipe walls and through cracks in rock piles.

Many of the rocks show yellowish coloring, likely caused by microbial mats. These mats are layers of microorganisms that thrive in chemically rich environments. Their presence suggests the system supported life fueled by chemical energy rather than sunlight.

Hydrothermal life was not limited to microbes. Researchers observed entire biological communities near the pipes. Scorpionfish, which sit at the top of the local food chain, were common. Because predators need a large food supply, scientists believe extensive microbial growth exists within the rock piles at the base of the pipes, even if much of it remains hidden.

Seismic Signals Point to Gas Movement
The discovery did not rely on visual evidence alone. Over 28 days, researchers recorded more than 800 small earthquakes along a 150 kilometer stretch crossing the trench. These short seismic events point to ongoing gas movement beneath the seafloor.

Chemical testing of hydrothermal fluids added another clue. Nitrogen isotope analysis showed a strong atmospheric gas component, meaning gases from the surface likely mixed with hydrogen rising from deep within the Earth.

Unlike previously known hydrogen rich systems, this one sits far from active plate boundaries. Most similar discoveries occurred near spreading ridges or active faults, such as the well known Lost City hydrothermal field. Kunlun lies about 80 kilometers from active plate margins, showing that hydrogen formation does not require ongoing tectonic motion.

Why Hydrogen Fits the Evidence
Hydrogen can store and release enormous energy under pressure. Scientists calculated that one ton of hydrogen expanding rapidly from deep pressure levels to seafloor pressure could release energy equal to 0.21 tons of TNT. If hydrogen reacted with oxygen, the energy release would be even greater, about 150 times stronger than simple expansion.

Such power matches what would be needed to blast out pipes of this scale. According to Prof. XIAO Yuanyuan, first author of the study, the results suggest a vast amount of hydrogen formed deep in the oceanic mantle and later escaped upward. “It could be economically mineable in the future,” XIAO said.

The hydrogen likely formed through reactions between seawater and mantle rocks, a process that produces both heat and hydrogen gas. Over time, pressure built until sudden releases carved out the pipes now seen on the seafloor.

Rethinking Earth’s Hidden Resources
This discovery changes how scientists view Earth’s natural hydrogen cycle. It shows that large hydrogen systems can form far from volcanic hotspots and remain hidden for millions of years. It also raises questions about how many similar systems exist elsewhere beneath the oceans.

For now, the Kunlun pipe swarm offers a rare window into deep Earth chemistry. It also shows how powerful chemical reactions can shape geology, ecosystems, and possibly future energy options.

Practical Implications of the Research
This research expands understanding of how hydrogen forms and moves inside Earth. It may guide future studies searching for natural hydrogen resources on land and under the sea.

While deep ocean mining is not currently practical, the findings could influence long term clean energy research.

Understanding these systems also helps scientists better model Earth’s geology, gas cycles, and deep life ecosystems, benefiting both environmental science and future energy planning.

Research findings are available online in the journal Science Advances.

#18 Re: Terraformation » Landmaking » Yesterday 15:51:45

Biosphere 2 shape with KBD512 Biosphere structure of cast basalt

but the reality was They locked humans in a fake Earth for 2 years and the experiment imploded

In the early 1990s, eight people agreed to vanish from the world and live for two years inside a sealed glass habitat in the Arizona desert, a kind of fake Earth built to see whether humans could survive in a closed ecosystem. The project, called Biosphere 2, was supposed to be a dress rehearsal for space colonies and a bold test of whether we could bottle an entire planet. Instead, the grand experiment unraveled in a tangle of oxygen crashes, food shortages, and human conflict that still shapes how scientists think about living off-world.

Three decades later, the story of that first mission reads less like a clean scientific trial and more like a pressure cooker drama about what happens when you try to compress Earth into a box and lock people inside. The failures were real and sometimes dangerous, but so were the lessons about climate, engineering, and human psychology that emerged from the implosion.

#19 Re: Human missions » Why Artemis is “better” than Apollo. » Yesterday 12:26:23

Artemis II: NASA's mega Moon rocket arrives at launch pad

AA1Uqqlh.img?w=768&h=432&m=6

Nasa's mega rocket has been moved to the launch pad in Cape Canaveral, Florida, as the final preparations get underway for the first crewed mission to the Moon in more than 50 years.

Over almost 12 hours, the 98m-tall Space Launch System was carried vertically from the Vehicle Assembly Building on the 4-mile (6.5km) journey to the pad.

Now it is in position, the final tests, checks - and a dress rehearsal - will take place, before the go-ahead is given for the 10-day Artemis II mission that will see four astronauts travel around the Moon.

Nasa says the earliest the rocket can blast off is 6 February, but there are also more launch windows later that month, as well as in March and April.

AA1UqsJk.img?w=768&h=431&m=6&x=508&y=87&s=485&d=190

The rocket began moving at 07:04 local time (12:04 GMT) and arrived at Launch Pad 39B at the Kennedy Space Center at 18:41 local time (23:42 GMT).

The rocket was carried by a huge machine called a crawler-transporter, travelling at a top speed of 0.82 mph (1.3 km/h) as it trundled along. Live coverage captured the slow-moving spectacle.

Nasa said the rocket will be prepared over the next few days for what it calls a "wet dress rehearsal" - a test for fuel operations and countdown procedures.

The Artemis II crew - Nasa's Reid Wiseman, Victor Glover and Christina Koch and Canadian astronaut Jeremy Hansen - were at the Kennedy Space Center watching the rocket as it was moved.

In just a few weeks, the four astronauts will be strapped into a spacecraft, perched on the top of the rocket, ready to blast off to the Moon.

It will be the first crewed mission to the Moon since Apollo 17 landed on its surface in December 1972.

Nasa said the mission could take its astronauts further into space that anyone has been before.

Artemis II is not scheduled to land on the Moon, but will instead lay the groundwork for a future lunar landing led by the Artemis III mission.

Nasa said the launch of Artemis III will take place "no earlier than" 2027. But, experts believe 2028 is the earliest possible date.

Koch said it was an amazing feeling to see the rocket.

"Astronauts are the calmest people on launch day. And I think... it feels that way because we're just so ready to fulfil the mission that we came here to do, that we've trained to do," she said.

Hansen said he hoped the mission would inspire the world.

"The Moon is something that I've taken for granted. I've looked at it my whole life, but then you just glance at it and glance away," he said.

"But now I've been staring at it a lot more, and I think others will be joining us and staring at the Moon a lot more as there will be humans flying around the far side and that is just good for humanity."

Before Artemis II heads to the Moon, the first two days of their mission will be spent in orbit around the Earth.

"We're going to be going into an orbit almost right away that is 40,000 miles out - like a fifth of the way of the Moon," Koch told BBC News.

"We will have the Earth out the window as a single ball, something none of us have seen in that perspective.

"And then we're going to travel a quarter of a million miles away… we're going to do a lot of science and operations along the way."

While they fly around the far side of the Moon, the crew will have three hours dedicated to lunar observation - to gaze, take images and to study its geology, which will help plan and prepare for a future landing at the Moon's south pole.

AA1UqvDt.img?w=768&h=432&m=6

A key part of the Orion spacecraft that the astronauts will be flying in was made in Bremen in Germany.

The European Service Module, which sits behind the crew capsule, is the European Space Agency's contribution to the mission and has been built by Airbus.

"The European Service Module is so important - we basically can't get to the Moon without it," says Sian Cleaver, a spacecraft engineer at Airbus.

"It provides the propulsion that Orion needs to get us to the Moon."

Its large solar arrays will generate all the electrical power for the craft, she adds.

"We've also got these big tanks full of oxygen and nitrogen, which are mixed to make air, and also water, so that we can provide everything that the astronauts need in the crew module to keep them alive on their journey."

Inside their cleanroom, the team is busy building more modules for future Artemis missions. Each one takes about 18 months to put together but has taken thousands of engineering hours to design. Everything on board has to work perfectly.

"We've got to get those astronauts to the Moon and then back again, completely safely," says Cleaver.

With the rocket now on launchpad 39B, the Artemis team is working around the clock to get it ready for lift off.

The mission has already faced years of delays, and Nasa is under pressure to get the astronauts on their way as soon as possible. However, the US space agency said it would not compromise on safety.

John Honeycutt, chair of the Artemis mission management team, said: "I've got one job, and it's the safe return of Reid and Victor and Christina and Jeremy.

"We're going to fly when we're ready... crew safety is going to be our number one priority."

#20 Re: Exploration to Settlement Creation » WIKI Project Designing for Mars » Yesterday 12:08:54

We launched the evening with discussions of kbd512's vision of a ring/dome habitat

SpaceNut joined  in with numerous suggestions for materials and procedures.

We settled on a population to serve: 1000

That is a nice round number to work with.  SpaceNut agreed to consult his AI friends to see if any of them can work out the requirements for all the equipment needed to sustain that population.

We are in need of fresh water and sewerage systems, and the equipment to recover fresh water from the sewerage.

SpaceNut is in an industry that deals with humans in closed life support environments.

Hopefully he will be able to help kbd512 size the complex.

Kbd512 gave us an expectation that some support systems would be inside the building and some outside.

#21 Re: Exploration to Settlement Creation » WIKI Project Designing for Mars » Yesterday 12:08:47

cooling or dehumidiation

For a structure with a 200 m (656 ft) diameter and 120 m (394 ft) tall parabolic dome, standard High-Volume, Low-Speed (HVLS) ceiling fans, typically with diameters up to 7.3 meters (24 feet), would be used in a calculated array to provide effective air circulation. Multiple fans, rather than a single massive fan, are required due to the immense size of the space.

Step 1: Calculate the Floor Area and Assess Fan Coverage The floor area of the dome is a circle with a radius of 100 m:\(\text{Area}=\pi \times \text{radius}^{2}=\pi \times 100^{2}\approx 31,416\,\text{m}^{2}\,(338,166\,\text{ft}^{2})\)A single large HVLS fan (e.g., 7.3 m diameter) typically covers between 900 and 1,500 square meters. For cooling purposes, the coverage area is roughly five times the fan's diameter for large-blade fans, but for destratification (air mixing in very high spaces), it can be up to ten times.

Step 2: Determine the Number and Placement of Fans Given the vast area, an array of fans is necessary. The general guideline is to space fans a distance equal to at least one fan diameter apart, or up to three times the diameter depending on the manufacturer and application. For consistent coverage, a grid pattern is ideal. For such a massive, open space, consulting with an HVLS expert for a custom layout drawing is crucial. The number of 7.3-meter (24-foot) fans could range from 21 to over 30 to cover the entire area effectively, depending on specific airflow requirements and building obstructions.

Step 3: Consider Ceiling Height and Fan Mounting The 120 m (394 ft) ceiling is extremely high. While fans perform well when mounted between 6 and 12 meters (20 to 40 feet) above the floor, longer downrods might be needed to position the fans within the occupied zone for optimal air movement. The fans must also maintain safe clearance from the floor (at least 3 m or 10 ft) and other structural elements.

Answer: For a parabolic dome ceiling with a 200 m diameter and 120 m height, multiple HVLS fans with diameters typically ranging from 6.1 meters to 7.3 meters (20 to 24 feet) would be required. The exact number and strategic placement of fans, likely exceeding two dozen units, should be determined through a professional airflow study to ensure uniform air circulation and temperature control

Commercial 7m (7-meter) fans refer to large industrial fans, often HVLS (High-Volume, Low-Speed) ceiling fans, used for cooling vast spaces like warehouses, factories, malls, and arenas, providing massive airflow (measured in CFM) for comfort and energy efficiency in huge commercial areas. You'll find them as massive ceiling units or powerful pedestal/wall-mounted fans designed for serious air movement, not typical home use, with high CFM ratings (thousands) for effective cooling.
Key Characteristics:
Size & Type: Look for HVLS fans (often 7 feet or more in diameter) or large pedestal/wall fans, not standard residential ceiling fans.
Airflow (CFM): Measured in Cubic Feet per Minute; higher CFM means more air moved, crucial for large spaces (e.g., 7000+ CFM is common).
Applications: Warehouses, factories, gyms, shopping centers, agricultural buildings, and large event spaces.
Benefits: Better air circulation, reduced heat, improved comfort, and energy savings over traditional AC in large buildings.
Where to Find Them:
Home Improvement Stores: The Home Depot offers large industrial ceiling fans.
Online Marketplaces: Alibaba.com has many manufacturers for 7m industrial fans.
Specialty Retailers: Amazon.com (for large pedestal/wall fans) and industrial fan suppliers.
When searching, use terms like "HVLS fan," "industrial ceiling fan," "large commercial fan," or specify CFM and diameter (like 7ft or 7m) for best results

#23 Re: Exploration to Settlement Creation » WIKI Project Designing for Mars » Yesterday 12:08:24

Colony or settlement sized

Designing a Mars water system for a crew of 4-6 (initial) to dozens (colony) relies on In-Situ Resource Utilization (ISRU), primarily extracting water from Martian soil/ice via heating or microwave drilling, supplemented by high-efficiency closed-loop recycling of hygiene/wastewater, plus atmospheric water harvesting (like MARRS), all integrated with habitats (MHUs) and power (solar/nuclear), ensuring redundancy for survival and growth.
1. Water Sources & Extraction (ISRU)
Subsurface Ice/Hydrated Minerals: The main source; systems heat regolith (200-500°C) or use microwave energy down boreholes to vaporize water, then collect and condense it.
Atmospheric Water: Systems like MARRS (Mars Atmospheric Resource Recovery System) capture water vapor from the thin Martian atmosphere.
2. Water Processing & Recycling (Life Support)
ECLSS (Environmental Control and Life Support Systems): Highly reliable systems (similar to ISS) to recycle water from urine, humidity, and hygiene.
Bioregenerative Systems: Using algae or plants (in greenhouses/hydroponics) to further purify water and produce food, reducing Earth dependence.
3. System Design for Different Crew Sizes
Early Missions (4-6 crew): Focus on robust, high-reliability closed-loop systems with significant storage (1000+ days' supply) and initial ISRU capability.
Colony (Growing to 20+): Requires large-scale, scalable ISRU plants, modular habitats (MHUs) with extendable capacity, and robust power generation (solar/nuclear).
4. Key Components & Concepts
ISRU Hardware: Mobile units (like Honeybee Robotics' MISWE) for exploration and extraction.
Habitat Modules (MHUs): Inflatable structures with integrated water processing, living areas, and crop growth zones.
Power: Thin-film solar arrays or small nuclear reactors to power extraction and life support.
Redundancy: Critical for survival; backup storage, parallel systems, and emergency escape routes within habitats.
5. Water Needs Estimation
Baseline: Around 0.6-0.7 kg/person/hour (consumption, hygiene, plant growth) in a gravity environment, with high reclamation.
Plants: Require additional water (approx. 0.003 kg/hr/person) not easily reclaimed.
Example Design Framework (for a growing colony)
Initial Landing: Crew of 4-6 with pre-deployed ISRU hardware and life support units.
Expansion (Year 2+): Increase crew (6, 12, 24 per mission) using new missions, deploy larger ISRU facilities, establish larger crop areas, and build more habitat clusters.
ISRU Integration: Automated systems extract water, feed it to storage, processing units, and greenhouses, ensuring continuous supply

#24 Re: Exploration to Settlement Creation » WIKI Project Designing for Mars » Yesterday 12:07:27

Exploration sized

Designing a Mars water production system for a crew of 4-6 involves a multi-pronged approach: In-Situ Resource Utilization (ISRU) from Martian soil/ice, highly efficient water recycling (up to 98%+ on ISS) for transit, and robust storage/treatment systems, requiring advanced drills/miners, Sabatier reactors, electrolysis units, filtration (RO/Forward Osmosis), and storage tanks (FRP/PEX) with nanotechnology for a 1.5-2.5 year mission to meet hygiene, metabolic, and fuel needs. Crew size (often 4-6) dictates scale, with larger crews needing more redundancy and capacity, but fewer crew (e.g., 3) significantly reduces mass/cost, influencing system design. Key System Components & Design Principles Water Sourcing (ISRU):Regolith Extraction: Drills/heaters (like Mars Ice Drill concept) to extract water vapor from Martian soil (regolith) or subsurface ice.Atmospheric Extraction: Condensing atmospheric water vapor, though less direct than soil extraction.Chemical Conversion (Sabatier/Electrolysis): Using imported hydrogen and atmospheric \(\text{CO}_{2}\) to make methane fuel and water (\(\text{H}_{2}\text{O}\)), then electrolyzing water for breathing oxygen/rocket oxidizer.Water Production & Processing:Water Recovery System (WRS): Similar to ISS, recycling urine, humidity condensate, hygiene water with high efficiency (near 98%).Treatment: Reverse Osmosis (RO), Forward Osmosis (FO), distillation, and advanced filtration for purification.Storage: Lightweight tanks (Fiber-Reinforced Plastic - FRP, crosslinked Polyethylene - PEX) with leak detection, heating to prevent freezing.Life Support Integration:Metabolic Water: Generated from food/fuel (like the movie The Martian's concept using rocket fuel, though ISRU is preferred).Hygiene Water: Separate loop with efficient recovery and reuse. Crew Size Considerations (4-6 Astronauts) 6 Crew (Conjunction Class Mission): Longer stays (18 months surface), higher demand for water, requires larger ISRU units, more robust recycling, significant water storage redundancy.4 Crew (Transit/Surface): Lower overall demand, potentially simpler systems, but still needs high reliability for long durations (400-500 days transit + surface stay).Smaller Crew (3): Significantly reduces mass/cost/complexity, making larger ISRU systems more feasible or requiring less overall capacity, but fewer hands for maintenance. Mission Profile Example (6 Crew, ~2.5 Years Total) Transit (9-12 months): Relies heavily on recycled water, backup supplies (30+ metric tons if all water carried).Surface Stay (18 months): ISRU becomes critical for sustaining hygiene, metabolic needs, and propellant production for return.Key Design Goal: Minimize water mass from Earth; maximize ISRU & recycling to make the mission feasibl

#25 Re: Exploration to Settlement Creation » WIKI Project Designing for Mars » Yesterday 11:57:26

project design to produce water on mars system for science mission size

Designing a Mars water production system for science missions involves extracting subsurface ice or hydrated minerals, processing them (heating/microwave), and collecting the vapor, using methods like drills (Coiled Tubing), heated regolith extraction (C.R.A.T.E.R.), or Rodriguez Wells, focusing on reliability, low mass, power efficiency for tasks like life support (ISRU) and propellant, with key components including drills, heaters, condensers, storage, and potentially atmospheric processors for oxygen/methane.
Core Concepts & Technologies
In-Situ Resource Utilization (ISRU): The overarching goal is using local Martian resources (water ice, atmospheric CO2) to create needed consumables (water, oxygen, methane fuel).
Extraction Methods:
Drilling: Using drills (like the Mars Ice Drill or Coiled Tubing) to reach buried ice, potentially melting it in situ.
Regolith Heating: Heating Martian soil (regolith) to release bound water molecules (e.g., 200-500°C).
Rodriguez Well (Rodwell): A method using a well to access large subsurface ice deposits, especially glacier-like forms.
Processing & Collection:
Microwave Heating: Efficiently freeing water from soil.
Condensers: Cooling water vapor to collect liquid water.
Storage: Tanks for storing extracted water.
Atmospheric Processing (for oxygen/methane): Using the Sabatier process (CO2 + H2 → CH4 + H2O) to make fuel, creating water as a byproduct.
System Design for Science Missions (Scalable)
Targeting: Use orbital data to find shallow subsurface ice or hydrated minerals, crucial for accessibility.
Excavation/Drilling Unit: A robust, potentially semi-autonomous system (e.g., drill with air/water jets) to reach the ice/hydrated material.
Processing Unit:
Heating Element: For regolith (microwaves/resistive heating) or sublimating ice.
Separation/Condensation: Capturing water vapor.
Collection & Storage: A reliable system to meter and store the water in tanks, potentially with internal heating/cooling loops.
Power & Control: Solar/RTG power, autonomous controls for simple operations, and telemetry for remote monitoring.
Integration (Optional): Link to a life support system (like CHRSy) for crewed missions or propellant production.
Example Project Elements (Student/Small Scale)
C.R.A.T.E.R. System (Colorado School of Mines): A conveyor belt system to feed Martian soil into a microwave-heated casing for water extraction.
Mars Ice Drill (FAU): A drill to penetrate ice, heat it, and pump water to the surface for collection

Designing a Mars water system for a science mission (e.g., 3-6 crew) involves In-Situ Resource Utilization (ISRU) like extracting subsurface ice (drilling/melting) or atmospheric vapor, combining with water recycling (ISS-style) for reliability, and using systems like Sabatier reactors for propellant/oxygen production, all needing redundancy and significant power (160kW+) for a ~1.5 yr stay, balancing mass/cost with crew needs for drinking, hygiene, science, and crucial life support. Key Design Components & Technologies Water Sourcing (ISRU)Subsurface Ice Extraction: Drilling (e.g., Coiled Tubing method) to access buried ice, followed by melting.Atmospheric Extraction: Capturing water vapor from the Martian atmosphere.Waste & Recycling: Advanced systems to recover water from urine, humidity, and hygiene, similar to ISS but with higher reliability for Mars.Water Processing & StoragePurification: Filtration, reverse osmosis, distillation, and UV treatment.Storage: Durable tanks (FRP, PEX) with anti-freeze/heating to prevent freezing, plus distribution piping.Water for Propulsion & Life SupportSabatier Reactor: Uses imported Hydrogen (\(H_{2}\)) and Martian Carbon Dioxide (\(CO_{2}\)) to create methane (\(CH_{4}\)) fuel and water (\(H_{2}O\)).Electrolysis: Splits water into Hydrogen and Oxygen, providing breathable air and rocket propellant (for ascent/return). Crew Size & System Implications Crew Size (e.g., 3-6): Impacts total water needed (drinking, hygiene, food prep, science), influencing habitat volume, water processing capacity, and ISRU system scale.Mass & Cost: ISRU dramatically cuts Earth-launched mass by using local resources, making missions feasible and more autonomous.Reliability: Higher redundancy and robust systems are critical due to the long travel time and inability to quickly resupply if systems fail. Example Mission Scenario (6 Crew) Pre-deployed Cargo: Habitat, ISRU plant, Descent/Ascent Vehicle (DAV) sent ahead.Crew Transit: Transported in a separate vehicle, potentially using water electrolysis for propulsion.Surface Operations: ISRU system extracts water, processes it, and stores it; water is used for life support and creating propellant for return. Key Considerations for Science Missions Power: Significant power (160kW+) needed for ISRU, life support, and thermal control.Science Payload: Water use for scientific experiments (e.g., hydroponics, sample processing) must be budgeted.Planetary Protection: Strict protocols for handling potential Martian microbes

Drilling on Mars

Water Extraction from Martian Soil
The topic we have

ISRU Technology Development for Extraction of Water from the Mars Surface

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