New Mars Forums

For SpaceNut ....

It is difficult to take a positive attitude when there are so many problems ahead of humans headed to Mars.

You've shown once again that the negative and difficulty are all that come to your mind when you think about Mars.

RobertDyck opened a topic that is intended to be full of hope and optimism, and which is designed to show exactly how to do the many tasks needed to grow food on Mars.  Your first contribution is a list of problems to be overcome.

I'll quote the list and try to help you to understand how it comes across:

SpaceNut wrote:

Not trying to be negative

Mars short list
1. no insitu food which means all must be brought and minimal ability to grow within the ship you come in
2. no breathable atmosphere, must be brought or insitu made if you have extra power and equipment
3. has minimal water and nothing free to draw from that is fresh or insitu made if you have extra power and equipment
4. minimal solar energy and lots of radiation with ships not designed for long term stay
5. no ship going back or to mars currently just future planning but you need to solve other issues first
6. Lacks materials other than insitu processed to make shelters from if you have extra power and equipment
7. mars has natural geological and mineral assets if you have extra power and equipment to make use of insitu sources
8. financing presently via government and not private

Item #1: You may not have read RobertDyck's post.  He explicitly said that food must be grown  before humans arrive to stay.

How did you miss that?

Here is what RobertDyck said in the opening post:

To put this in terms of Mars, a successful settlement must start producing food with the fist expedition.

Here's the rest of that key paragraph, because it contains the essence of the mission of this topic:

In 1496, fishermen returned to England at the end of each fishing season. A house was built in 1497 for a single caretaker to overwinter, to care for the camp. It was some years before people lived year-round. For Mars, first expeditions must build the first permanent buildings including a pressurized greenhouse to grow food. But the first few expeditions must return to Earth. Only after the base has been proven safe, with reliable food production, can permanent settlement be considered. Food production with absolutely no resupply from Earth must be established before we permanently settle Mars.

The topic is not the place to worry about all the challenges facing those who will build the first food production facility.  We have plenty of other topics where you and others can worry about those issues.  The topic RobertDyck created is where we NewMars members will build up a repository of knowledge about how to do whatever is needed.  Your contribution is a list of challenges, but we already know about all the challenges. We don't need another list. We've had 20+ years (from 2001 I was reminded today) to think of all the challenges. 

The opportunity for NewMars members is to think of all the answers that are needed to achieve RobertDyck's vision.

You've had since July of 2004 to think of every possible problem that humans might face in settling Mars.

It is past time to start working on solutions.

You are free to provide answers for any or all of the problems you've cited.

It is up to RobertDyck to decide, but ** I ** would vote for you being required to find a solution for each and every problem you've listed.

It's time (past time) to get moving on building up the knowledge, skill and resources to achieve the many subgoals of the Mars project.

Let's get moving!

We don't need more hand wringing.  This forum has 24 years for hand wringing!  We are about to enter 2026.

Let 2026 be the year of NewMars finding solutions to all those stacked up problems.

(th)

This bookmark is for the habitat or space vessel atmosphere that allows humans to go outside into vacuum without pre-breathing.

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 72#p236572

The link above points to one of  many posts in the NewMars archive that make this point over and over again.

The simple rule of thumb for children growing up on Mars is 3 - 5 - 8.

Three parts Oxygen
5 parts Nitrogen or other neutral gas
8 pounds per square inch

3 - 5 - 8

There are humans who want higher precision.

The Universe has room for folks who want higher precision.

(th)

Use the long-known NASA criterion for no pre-breathe time.  The partial pressure in the habitat,  of the nitrogen,  may not exceed the total pressure of the pure oxygen fed to the suit,  by more than a factor of 1.2. 

If you satisfy that criterion,  there is no "pre-breathe" time associated with donning an oxygen suit and going outside immediately,  without risking the bends from the nitrogen. 

If you do more than about half an atmosphere of 21% O2/ 79% N2 mix in the habitat atmosphere,  at more than around 0.5 atm hab atmosphere pressure,  this is impossible to do. 

But half or a little less than half an atmosphere of oxygen-nitrogen mix in the habitat atmosphere,  meets that criterion for donning a pure O2 suit and just going outside with no pre-breathe.

GW

Mars suits need advanced mobility, durability (dust/temp), and life support for equipment work, moving beyond bulky gas-filled suits to designs like SpaceX's agile EVA suit or concepts like the tight BioSuit, focusing on enhanced joints, integrated HUDs, and specialized materials (Orthofabric) to allow astronauts to perform complex tasks efficiently in Mars' low gravity and harsh dust. NASA's Z-series prototypes, Axiom suits, and material tests (SHERLOC) are all pushing for lighter, more agile, and reliable suits for exploration and maintenance.
Key Design Features for Mars Work:
Enhanced Mobility: Improved joint designs (like those in SpaceX's suit) and lighter materials to counter Mars' lower gravity and allow complex arm/hand movements for tool use.
Dust Protection: Highly resistant materials (e.g., Teflon, Orthofabric) to block pervasive Martian dust, a major issue for equipment.
Integrated Technology: Heads-Up Displays (HUDs) in helmets (like SpaceX's) for real-time data and easier task management.
Adjustability & Fit: Sizing features (adjustable shoulders/waist) to fit diverse astronauts and improve comfort for long work periods.
Durability: Built for millions of wear cycles, far exceeding lunar needs, using advanced composites and materials tested on the Perseverance rover.
Examples of Suit Concepts:
SpaceX EVA Suit: Evolved from Dragon IVA, focusing on agility, 3D-printed helmets, advanced thermal layers for extreme temps, and scalability.
NASA Z-2/Z-series: Prototypes emphasizing wide motion, docking, and lightweight composites, tested in extreme environments.
BioSuit: A tight, stretchy suit applying pressure directly to the skin, offering more natural movement than gas-pressurized suits.
Axiom Suits: Next-gen designs for NASA, focusing on broad adjustability, comfort, and modern tech for complex tasks.
Challenges & Solutions:
Bulky vs. Agile: Moving from bulky gas-filled suits (like Apollo's) to designs that don't hinder simple tasks like tightening a bolt.
Life Support: Developing efficient systems for heat rejection (like Swimmie) and ensuring extended survival in case of minor punctures.
Material Science: Ongoing tests (SHERLOC experiment) on various materials to find the best protection against Mars' unique environment

Mars spacesuit risk management focuses on protecting astronauts from extreme hazards (radiation, dust, temps, vacuum) and operational challenges (injury, life support failure, CO2 buildup, decompression), using rigorous design (Injury Modes & Effects Analysis, radiation shielding, better seals), advanced training (pre-breathing), constant monitoring (SFIT tools), and comprehensive protocols to ensure long-duration mission safety, balancing performance needs with crew survival, says NASA's risk management process for human spaceflight and NASA's approach to EVA suits for lunar and Mars missions. Key risks include dust contamination, thermal extremes, radiation exposure, and physiological strain from frequent, demanding EVAs, requiring redundant life support and injury mitigation.
Key Risks & Mitigation Strategies
Radiation & Dust: Martian regolith (dust) is abrasive, adhesive, and can damage equipment/harm humans; radiation is intense.
Mitigation: Advanced suit materials, better seals, dust-resistant designs, habitat shielding.
Physiological Strain/Injury: More frequent & demanding EVAs on Mars (24 hrs/week) increase injury risk compared to ISS.
Mitigation: SFIT (Spacesuit Fit & Injury Technologies) to predict/monitor injury, improved suit ergonomics (e.g., Z-2.5 design), better fit.
Life Support/Environmental Control: Risks like CO2 buildup, oxygen depletion, humidity, fire, and decompression sickness are critical.
Mitigation: Redundant systems, CO2 scrubbers, pre-breathing protocols (pure O2 for nitrogen purge) to prevent decompression sickness (DCS).
Operational & Technical: Design complexity, maintenance, long-duration reliability, and emergency scenarios.
Mitigation: NASA's formal risk management process (Human System Risk Board), detailed Maintenance plans, vacuum chamber testing, and designs for quick emergency return.
NASA's Approach
Formal Risk Management: Uses detailed causal diagrams (directed acyclic graphs) to map hazards to mission outcomes, improving stakeholder communication.
Focus on Exploration EVAs: Recognizing ISS EVAs (slower pace, fewer per mission) differ greatly from Mars needs, developing suits for higher performance and safety.
Integrated Systems: Designing suits (like xEMU) to support multiple programs (Artemis, ISS, Gateway) while managing unique mission risks

For SpaceNut ... re https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 44#p236544

The text you pasted about airlocks looks reasonable, but there are no references.

This forum needs to get in the habit of providing references for every post that might be assumed by a reader to be something other than an opinion.

I like the discussion about multiple stages of air locks.  That looks really tedious to me.

The worry about contaminating Mars is understandable for an initial expedition.

It has nothing to do with Calliban's dome airlock.  We aren't going to be worried about contamination of Mars.

You have already started discussion because you are (apparently) worried about CO in Mars atmosphere that might enter the habitat.

I have tried to encourage you to guide your AI to produce useful guidance on how to do that. The AI may have found some NASA documentation but I don't see that has much if anything to do with Calliban's dome.

You provided a problem to solve. Now please guide AI to find a solution.

For SpaceNut re Post #4030

Thanks for the link to the Data General article on Wikipedia.... That is a ** very ** interesting article...

My work environment did not include exposure to Data General, so I'm glad to have this opportunity to learn about that inspired group of people who spun off from Dec ... I am also interested to learn that you were part of that successful venture!  I don't know if you noticed, but toward the bottom of the article, it was reported that the control panel of Data General may have inspired the front panel of the famous MITS Altair 8800, which I was able to acquire in it's original kit form.

(th)

For SpaceNut .... thanks for the reminder of Data General!

I asked Google for a refresh, and it found a number of references...

Here's one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rccMfdxMe1U

The comments section is filled with memories of people who worked with or on that system.

(th)

A Mars airlock for clean entry focuses on planetary protection by minimizing Earth microbe transfer and Martian dust contamination, often using multi-chamber designs with dedicated suit ports (like NASA's MESA concept) for external donning/doffing, specialized dust mitigation (air showers, wiping), and integrated suit/equipment storage to keep the habitat sterile, essentially acting as a "mudroom" to prevent biological and particulate cross-contamination during crew EVAs.
Key Design Principles for Mars Airlocks:
Multi-Chamber System: Instead of one chamber, systems often propose two or three sections (antechambers) to create distinct zones for suit preparation, dust removal, and entry into the habitat.
External Suit Donning/Doffing (MESA Concept): A key innovation is the Mars EVA Suit Airlock (MESA), where suits attach externally to the habitat. The crew enters the suit from the habitat, then exits the airlock for EVA, keeping suit surfaces away from the main living area.
Dust Mitigation:
Air Showers & Wiping Stations: Integrated systems to blast/wipe dust off suits and equipment before entering the main habitat.
Specialized Ports: Airlocks have dedicated ports for suits, allowing them to be docked and maintained externally.
Integrated Storage: Airlocks function as storage for suits, tools, and emergency supplies (water, rations) to keep them outside the primary habitable zone, as discussed in this concept by Jenkins, accessed via newmars.com.
Planetary Protection Focus: The primary driver is preventing terrestrial microbes from contaminating Mars (forward contamination) and potentially harmful Martian materials from entering the habitat (backward contamination).
How it Works (Conceptual Example):
Before EVA: Astronauts don suits within the habitat, pass through the airlock into the external suit port, and detach.
After EVA: Astronauts re-enter the airlock, attach suits, go through decontamination (air/wipes), remove suits in the inner chamber, and enter the habitat, leaving contaminated gear behind.
These designs aim to reconcile human exploration needs with strict planetary protection requirements, making the airlock a critical interface for keeping Mars clean