New Mars Forums

New item: Before the recent computer outage, you had ** just ** posted about two locations on Mars that are obvious and natural sites for evaluation for settlement.  I'm hoping you will consider developing these sites.

As we are attempting to move into a new phase of membership, we have unique capabilities that allow us to (potentially) compete with others for the kind of person who is going to be settling Mars, or working on supplies and services to support Mars settlement.

Your identification of two attractive sites could be the starting point for entire Index level Categories.

This is entirely up to you to consider. No one else is going to take on the awesome responsibility that falls to you as the Senior Administrator.

What I have in mind is creating Index level entry for specific locations on Mars.

Such an Index level might have a name like: Settlement Sites

This would be at the same level as New Mars (Mars Society) (Acheron Labs) (Infrastructure Development) (Dorsa Brevia) etc...

Inside that new Category would be forums for each site.  The three candidates to start with are:

1) Calliban's Crater
2) One of the two openings you found
3) The other opening you found.

In addition, this new Category would include fora for actual settlement sites. At some point, humans are going to land and begin work to create a settlement. We can have a Category in place to allow us to create a forum to track just that landing.

These fora would be identified by a short text name and the coordinates.

For example, Calliban's Crater Latitude Longitude

Here is an example of an image that we might provide for each location:
file.php?id=41

The crater with the label "Calliban" is the right size to hold a dome with the same diameter as the New Orleans Superbowl

For large earthmoving equipment, repair bay sizes need significant width (14-20+ ft), height (14-20+ ft for dump trucks/excavators), and length (30-80+ ft) to accommodate massive machines, allowing for ample clearance (3+ ft) around vehicles, open beds, and service pits, with standard large bay sizes often starting around 40x60 ft or larger, depending on equipment dimensions and the need to work on trailers or raised components.

Key Dimensions to Consider
Width: Aim for at least 14-20+ feet per bay, providing clearance for large tires, extended tracks, and mechanics to move around freely, preventing side collisions.
Height: Crucial for dump trucks, allowing beds to fully extend (often 20+ ft high) for hydraulic work; even larger heights (20-25+ ft) are common for heavy machinery.
Length: Must fit the longest machine plus clearance for service pits, stairs, and working space (e.g., a 25ft truck + pit/stairs needs 30-40+ ft bay length).
Clearance: Minimum 3 feet of space on all sides of the equipment and bay doors for safe operation, with more needed for pits and stairs.

Common Bay & Building Sizes
Single Bay: Large bays for massive equipment might be 20-25 ft wide, 40-60 ft long, and 14-20+ ft high.
Multi-Bay Structures: Look for buildings like 40x60 ft, 40x80 ft, or 50x100 ft for general large equipment shops, often featuring clear spans.

High-Profile Models: Steel buildings with 20+ ft center heights (e.g., 42-21 or 52-25 models) are cost-effective for dump truck hydraulics.
Factors Influencing Size

Type of Equipment: Excavators, dozers, haul trucks, and articulated loaders have vastly different footprints.
Service Needs: Do you need space for a service pit, overhead cranes, or lifts?.
Trailer Access: If you service trucks with trailers, you need bay length for both.

Recommendation: Start by measuring your largest piece of equipment (length, width, height when raised/dumped) and add at least 3 feet on all sides and ends for working clearance and doors to get your minimum bay dimensions

For 0.5 bar (half Earth's sea-level pressure) on Mars, optimal building shapes are spheres, cylinders, or parabolic arches because these curved forms efficiently handle the large internal-to-external pressure difference, converting tension forces effectively, with inflatable structures (often buried/covered in regolith) or 3D-printed concrete domes using local materials being favored for their structural integrity and radiation shielding.

Key Structural Principles:
Compression is Key: The low external pressure means internal air pressure pushes outwards significantly. Shapes that handle stress in compression (like arches and domes) are superior to flat surfaces which would buckle.

Tension Strength: Spheres and cylinders are excellent at distributing tension evenly, making them ideal for pressurized containers.

Recommended Shapes & Designs:
Cylinders/Spheres: Often proposed as metal or inflatable structures, sometimes half-buried for protection. Cylinders can be built in trenches with tension wraps.

Dome Structures: Optimized parabolic or spherical domes, potentially using In-Situ Resource Utilization (ISRU) materials like Martian concrete, are efficient for large areas.

Inflatable Modules: Lightweight, easy to transport, and deployable, these membranes (like TransHab concepts) are inflated and then covered with regolith for shielding.

Vaults & Arches: Symmetrical parabolic arches, built from local materials, are designed to maximize compression and minimize tensile stress, creating strong, self-supporting forms.

Considerations for Martian Environments:
Radiation & Micrometeoroids: Structures need significant shielding (thick regolith, multi-layered walls) to protect against solar/cosmic radiation and impacts.

Thermal Insulation: The design must manage extreme temperature swings, often using layered materials or burying structures.

ISRU: Using Martian soil (regolith) for 3D printing or as shielding is crucial to reduce reliance on Earth imports

For Mars, engineers are designing smaller, electric, autonomous mining vehicles like NASA's IPEx (bulldozer/dump truck) for lunar use, adaptable for Mars's low gravity, focusing on In-Situ Resource Utilization (ISRU) to build habitats from regolith (Martian soil). Concepts envision hybrid systems using small, nimble rovers with blades/buckets, powered by nuclear or solar energy, potentially building on Earth-based designs like modified excavators or even (conceptually) pressurized Cybertrucks, prioritizing efficiency and scalability over large, heavy Earth machinery.

Key Design Considerations for Mars Hauling:
Power: Diesel is out; electric motors powered by solar arrays or nuclear sources are essential.
Autonomy/Teleoperation: Vehicles will likely be self-driving or remotely operated to reduce risk to astronauts.
Size & Scale: Smaller, lighter, modular machines (like 1-5 ton excavators/dumpers) are favored for easier transport and maneuverability in low gravity, with redundancy built-in.
Functionality: Combine functions: a rover with a blade (grader/dozer) and a hopper (dump truck) for moving regolith to build roads or create radiation shielding.
Resource Utilization (ISRU): Moving regolith is key for creating "marscrete" and shielding habitats.

Examples & Concepts:
NASA's IPEx: A robotic system for lunar soil mining, combining bulldozer and dump truck functions, a blueprint for Mars.
Airbus's "Interplanetary Dump Truck": A concept for bringing Mars rocks back to Earth, focusing on sample return.
Reddit/SpaceX Concepts: Discussions suggest small, electric, autonomous rovers with excavator/loader attachments, potentially leveraging mature Earth tech like small excavators or even modified Cybertrucks for pressurized transport.
In essence, think less "big rig" and more "fleet of smart, electric robotic work vehicles" suited for low gravity and self-sufficiency

An "earth dump or hauling truck" refers to dump trucks, versatile vehicles that move loose materials like dirt, gravel, sand, and demolition waste for construction, site prep, and road building, with specific types like articulated dump trucks (ADTs) handling rough terrain and off-highway haul trucks moving massive loads in mines, all designed to efficiently transport and unload bulk materials.
Key Types & Functions

Standard Dump Trucks: Common on roads, transporting typical construction aggregates and debris over short to medium distances.
Articulated Dump Trucks (ADTs): Feature a pivot point (articulation) between the tractor and the dump body, offering excellent maneuverability and off-road capability for rugged sites.
Off-Highway/Haul Trucks: Massive, heavy-duty vehicles used in mining and large construction projects for extremely long hauls and huge payloads, often exceeding standard road limits.
Side Dumps & Transfer Dumps: Specialized designs for faster unloading or handling specific materials like asphalt.
What They Haul
Dirt, sand, gravel, crushed stone
Asphalt, concrete
Demolition debris, construction waste
Sod, brush
Where They're Used
Construction site preparation and excavation
Road building and maintenance
Mining operations (haul trucks)
Landscaping and site grading
In essence, any truck moving earth, sand, gravel, or similar bulk materials on or off-site for construction or demolition falls under the category of an earth dump or hauling truck, with the specific type chosen for the job's terrain and load size

While conventional, Earth-based excavators are not suitable for use on Mars due to gravity and atmosphere differences, NASA is developing specialized robotic excavators for future use on extraterrestrial surfaces like the Moon and Mars. These robots are designed to extract local resources for use in space exploration and colonization.
Challenges of Excavating on Mars
Standard terrestrial excavators rely on their significant weight (mass) to provide the necessary downward force (traction) to dig into the ground. This method is ineffective in the low-gravity environment of Mars (which has only about one-third of Earth's gravity). Additionally, the thin Martian atmosphere makes traditional cooling systems inefficient, and the high bulk density of the deep regolith (soil) presents further difficulty.
Specialized Robotic Solutions
To overcome these challenges, engineers at NASA's Kennedy Space Center are developing innovative, lightweight robotic systems as part of their In-Situ Resource Utilization (ISRU) program.
RASSOR (Regolith Advanced Surface Systems Operations Robot): This precursor robot uses a system of counter-rotating bucket drums on opposing arms to provide a near-zero net reaction force during excavation. This design means the robot's digging capability is not reliant on its own weight or traction, making it effective in low-gravity environments. Its symmetrical design also allows it to continue operating even if it tips over.
IPEx (ISRU Pilot Excavator): This is the next-generation version of RASSOR. It is designed to be highly productive, capable of excavating up to 10,000 kg of lunar regolith in a single lunar day during testing. IPEx aims to bridge the gap between prospecting and full-scale resource extraction operations.
The Use of Martian Excavators
The primary use for these future excavators on Mars and the Moon is In-Situ Resource Utilization (ISRU). By using local materials, future missions can become more sustainable and self-sufficient.
Key uses include:
Extracting water ice: Robotic excavators would mine for buried ice deposits, which can then be processed into drinking water, oxygen for life support, and propellant (rocket fuel) for spacecraft.
Construction: Regolith can be used as a building material for habitats and landing pads, reducing the need to transport materials from Earth.
Mining minerals: The extraction of other valuable minerals is a long-term goal for potential commercial ventures and colonization.
Currently, while conceptual illustrations exist, there are no physical excavators operating on the surface of Mars; existing missions rely on smaller rovers like Spirit, Opportunity, Curiosity, and Perseverance which primarily perform geological analysis

Mars excavators are designed to be compact and lightweight for transport, with prototypes like RASSOR 2.0 weighing around 66 kg (145 lbs) and sized to fit within mission constraints, while larger concepts for future bases might be 1-2 tons, using mechanisms like counter-rotating bucket drums to handle low Martian gravity and excavate significant amounts of regolith (soil) for building materials or water extraction. They use efficient designs, like counteracting digging forces, to operate effectively in Mars' reduced gravity, differing greatly from massive Earth machines like Bagger 293.
Examples of Mars Excavator Concepts & Prototypes:
RASSOR (Regolith Advanced Surface Systems Operations Robot):
Mass: 66 kg (approx. 145 lbs).
Key Feature: Uses counteracting bucket drums to create net-zero horizontal reaction forces, making it stable in low gravity.
Capability: Can excavate several metric tons of soil daily.
Deep Space Excavator (RASC-AL Prototype):
Dimensions: 1m x 1m x 1.5m tall.
Mass: 49 kg (approx. 108 lbs).
Design: Uses lightweight aluminum framing for modularity.
Conceptual "Mini-Excavators":
Mass: Estimated 1-2 tons for larger base construction, emphasizing the trade-off between size and launch difficulty.
Function: Could be used for surface preparation, towing, or attaching tools like blowers.
Design Considerations for Mars:
Mass & Size: Must be small and light enough to launch to Mars (e.g., fitting within rovers like Curiosity/Perseverance, ~1 ton) but capable of significant work.
Low Gravity: Designs often use opposing forces (like RASSOR's drums) to maintain stability and prevent flipping over.
Power: Efficient power usage is critical; excavators might use <200W for modest excavation rates.
Autonomous Operation: Autonomous systems are key for efficiency, as direct remote control is limited by communication delays

Earth excavator sizes and masses vary dramatically, from small mini excavators weighing under a ton (around 2,000 lbs) for tight spaces, to standard models from 10-45 tons, up to massive mining excavators exceeding 100 tons (like 200+ ton models or giants like the Bagger 293 at 14,200 tons), with common standard excavators often in the 19-24 ton range, showcasing a huge spectrum of capabilities for everything from landscaping to large-scale mining.

Common Excavator Sizes & Weights
Mini/Micro Excavators:
Weight: ~1,500 lbs to 10,000 lbs (under 1 ton to 5 tons).
Use: Tight spaces, landscaping, small utility work.
Small/Compact Excavators:
Weight: 10,000 lbs to 25,000 lbs (5 to 12.5 tons).
Use: Versatile for general construction, better reach than minis.
Standard/Mid-Size Excavators:
Weight: 10 tons to 45 tons (with typical models around 19-24 tons).
Use: Most common, strong power for varied construction tasks, often tracked for rough terrain.
Large/Heavy Excavators:
Weight: 45 tons and up, some over 100 tons (e.g., Cat 207,300 lb model).
Use: Deep digging, large-scale earthmoving, demolition, mining.
Massive Mining Excavators (e.g., Bagger 293):
Weight: Thousands of tons (Bagger 293 is ~14,200 tons).
Use: Extreme-scale surface mining operations

Key Factors Influencing Size
Job Site: Tight urban sites need mini excavators; large open mines need massive ones.
Dig Depth/Reach: Larger machines offer significantly deeper digging and greater reach.
Power: Measured in horsepower, it dictates lifting and digging force, increasing with size.
Transport: Smaller models can be towed, while larger ones require specialized transport.