Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

SpaceNut · 2023-08-20 15:47:02

Mars Frontier Outpost Could Survive With Just 22 Residents, Researchers Say

After running five different computer models over a period 28 years, the team concluded that the minimum number of colonists required is 22 to "maintain a viable colony size over the long run."

previous study

SpaceNut · 2023-08-21 20:14:46

https://arxiv.org/pdf/2308.05916.pdf
20 pg's
An Exploration of Mars Colonization with Agent-Based Modeling

The topics of air food shelter applies to making the robust start with a growth potentail basewd on hard first steps to gain a foothold.

proven technologies from the ISS to allow for the sustainable production of air and water. Conversely, there is as yet no method for
the sustainable production of food in low gravity. As a result, we assume that earth shipments will deliver food but not water or air. Earth shipments deliver sufficient food for one additional earth shipment cycle (10.5kg of food per settler per week).

SpaceNut · 2023-08-23 17:57:40

Have been reading more on the steady number of those that plan to stay once a site is started and that appears to be roughly half of what we send to in this case Mars.

So, what is the cycle time of cargo that a crew requires is what is now needed to maintain the population which stays.

So is the first real landing of the minimum enough knowledge to allow for any to stay and if not, when would we start the living on Mars progression that builds on the toe and then foothold that man will attempt.

SpaceNut · 2023-12-11 19:58:04

I think its time to keep working on a starship mission plan using what might be.
So far, we know that starship is to land 2 cargo followed by a mars cycle with 2 more outgoing and a crewed ship to mars. That is going to be a tall order to fill for planning of cargo and a selected first mission sizing to lay a path forward.

Experience the Starship interior as one of the crew Starship-Concept-LW-Section-A-LEVEL-1-6-copy.png?fit=2560%2C1808&ssl=1

looking downward
Starship-Concept-LW-Level-6-Flight-Deck-copy.png?fit=2560%2C1808&ssl=1

there are many decks to see if they will work or modification will be required for what will optimize a mission.

Oldfart1939 · 2024-02-07 16:48:04

When I initially suggested a projects'17 man crew for the first mission, I was weighing potential loss of human life due to TOO LARGE a crew, but in my opinion, more is better (many hands make the work light...). Sooner or later, exhaustion from too many tasks without any break will have serious psychological impact on the mission. We're talking an 18 month stay on Mars, initially. I know that even as a now-retired workaholic, I would need a break sometime during this exciting but stressful undertaking. Give time for everyone to go out exploring for maybe a 10 day jaunt in a Mars rover Not all at once, but as a break when the mission leader sees there is time from a specific set of tasks for crew members to go out and have their experiences of a lifetime.

SpaceNut · 2024-02-11 14:06:27

To go allow with earlier Connex box use a lander-based similar to the sky crane design might be the ticket.

A couple of images to baseline from.

tahanson43206 · 2024-02-11 14:49:40

For SpaceNut re this topic ...

Thanks for giving us a reminder of OF1939's ambitious concept for an expedition.

I'd like to offer for your consideration that a drilling rig the size of the one made by the Italian company shown in the Water topic would need a crew of some size to manage the remote operations, and they would need support staff to take care of all the details of keeping everyone healthy for a two plus year on site job.

The equipment can be sent before the crew, and since the system is designed to be automated, much of the assembly can be done ahead of time by automation. However, I expect that final assembly and day-to-day operations need a human crew nearby.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2024-02-11 17:59:35

One of the issues is that we will require mobility of equipment as we may need to drill in multiple locations to get enough easy to process water sources.

Oldfart1939 · 2024-02-11 23:19:48

I was at one time thinking that in place of the "self driving nail" concept that the NASA brain trust (unsuccessfully) came up with would be a reprise of a Red Dragon capsule that contained a fairly heavy rotary drill system almost axially in the capsule, and a system to dispose of the spoil from drilling as well as a sampling system to determine the moisture content encountered. Said drilling system would carry with it a reasonable supply of drilling fluids to assist in the process. Not trying to do anything other than get some core samples maybe down to 25 feet to check this shallow water ice theory? Maybe set this up as a test before hand at the MDR site as an analog"mission?"

SpaceNut · 2024-02-12 17:59:04

Oldfart1939,

This is what was planned.

Not sure if going in a circle like an open pit mine would change quantity of water yield but it serves to create living space.

SpaceNut · 2024-02-18 18:35:46

One of the issues is sticking to a mission profile of time and numbers required for it to be possible.
Mission types are covered in the post Forty 40 Ton Mars Delivery Mechanism in post #29.

Which means time changes all that man will need and how to break down each load size to fit within the payload that we will land with.
This is the biggest of change for the ships fuel and size to be able to bring it to Mars.

SpaceNut · 2024-02-19 11:29:45

So, what is the manifest of the 40 Mt payload delivered for 17 men to make use of that have a mass of 82kg per person.

crew member daily needs
0.59 kg Oxygen
2.75 kg drinking water
0.50 kg food prep water
0.80 food solids
0.76 sealed food water content
2.39 kg numbers include pagaing
---------------
5.74 kg total

required is 5.03 kg

captured is 1.44 kk from metabolic + water in food and wipes

17 x 5.74 kg x length of the round trip journey which is designed around the mission profile.

waste cycle out house
1.08 kg O2
3.04 kg perspiration and exhaling
1.40 kg urine
0.66 kg urine solid
0.09 kg Feces water
0.03 kg Feces solid
0.04 kg Perspiration and solids
--------------------
5.74 kg total

water to recover is 5.33 kg

So how heavy is the recycling and power requirements to get the water back for reuse.

support for crew of 6
Food, water and supplies. Mass budget: 11.5t
Extra water and supplies: Mass budget: 12t

SpaceNut · 2024-02-19 20:25:48

Thanks to Void we have another to make use of in "Mars Direct 3 is a Mars mission architecture developed by Miguel Gurrea" topic.
https://www.marspapers.org/paper/Gurrea_2021.pdf

Plus Mars direct was a 40mT payload
https://www.marspapers.org/paper/Zubrin_1991.pdf

A reuseable craft requires the means to make the fuel of choice.

Roughly 2.6 years of experience CONJUNCTION: LONG-STAY Over 500 days at Mars with crew transit time between Earth and Mars: 160 – 180 days.

These next two require high levels of fuel and causes lots of problems.

Total mission length could be roughly 2.4 years FAST-TRANSIT LONG-STAY.

Roughly 1.8 years OPPOSITION: SHORT-STAY.

First Martian habitat, including crew quarters and a common area. Mass budget: 34t

Cranes, pipes, batteries and all operating equipment. Mass budget: 13t

The rover has 2 tons of combustible methane and at least the stochiometric oxygen to combust it and that the fuel cell is 20% efficient, the rover is essentially a 5625 KWh battery. Assuming a power consumption of 200 KWh per sol, the fuel in the rover would last for 28 sols.

Fuel tanker rover. Mass budget: 4t
Water tanker rover. Mass budget: 3.5t
Pressurized Rover. Mass budget: 10t
Panel deployment rovers (6): Mass budget: 3t

10 KW for 14 years, having a mass of 1300 Kg.

Kilopower-like reactors: Mass budget: 33t
Additional solar panels/fission reactors. Mass budget: 36t

24.8 tons of panels, covering an area of 6209.4 m2.
20 KW of solar panels: Mass budget: 2t
Solar panels (20KW). Mass budget: 2t
Deployable solar panels: Mass budget: 30t

Water extraction/ice mining machinery. Mass budget: 20t
ISRU machinery and storage. Mass budget: 37t

140.4 tons of oxygen would need to be produced. carbon dioxide from the atmosphere could be electrolyzed at a rate of 1 Kg a day with a supply of 1.714 KW. They proposed a more efficient scaled-up version. Further scaling up to fit MD3, 204.75 KW over a period of 400 days would be needed to produce 140.4 tons of O2.

Scientific equipment, batteries, carbon dioxide electrolyzers and other. Mass budget: 30t

Liquid methane. Mass budget: 45t

SpaceNut · 2024-03-01 19:44:51

Time for a plan for post 114

Thanks to Void we have another to make use of in "Mars Direct 3 is a Mars mission architecture developed by Miguel Gurrea" topic.
https://www.marspapers.org/paper/Gurrea_2021.pdf

Plus Mars direct was a 40mT payload
https://www.marspapers.org/paper/Zubrin_1991.pdf

A reuseable craft requires the means to make the fuel of choice.

SpaceNut · 2025-08-17 14:08:04

I am wondering what the habitat size for a crew of 17 really need as its looking like anything with a starship has slipped again as the beast is growing in size.

AI Overview
The recommended minimum acceptable volume per person for long-duration space missions, based on NASA studies and Mars mission design reference missions, is generally considered to be 25 cubic meters.
For a crew of 17, this would mean a minimum habitat volume of 425 cubic meters (17 crew members x 25 m³/person).
It's important to note that this is a minimum acceptable volume, and factors like mission duration, the nature of activities, and psychological well-being can necessitate larger spaces. The International Space Station (ISS), for example, provides significantly more habitable volume per crewmember than this minimum recommendation, according to NASA.
Ultimately, the ideal habitat size for a crew of 17 would depend on the specific mission objectives and constraints.

Defining the Required Net Habitable Volume for LongDuration Exploration Missions

Falcon 9 has a diameter of 3.6 m and 70 m tall so its volume is V=πr2h=π·1.82·70≈712.51321 m³

So if we go for a habitat that is 10 m in diameter then we have 10 m tall to get V=πr2h=π·52·10≈785.39816 m³

So the question is the tank mass and engines to land something with the dry mass of a falcon.

SpaceNut · 2025-08-18 16:07:40

moon direct a cost effective plan to enable human lunar exploration

what are the requirements to leverage from space x and other what can be done on orbit assembly.

To deliver program success on budget and schedule, project managers develop a common sense list of subsidiary requirements, such as:
– Minimize cost
– Minimize weight
– Minimize fuel
– Minimize risk to astronauts
– Minimize programmatic risk (e.g. getting canceled)
– Emplace infrastructure for a future series of missions
– Avoid technological dead ends (e.g. expendable vs reusable rockets)
– Avoid cost of new rocket (to avoid sticker shock, since rocket development is considered to be expensive)
– Placate constituencies (to avoid sniping)

Some of these requirements are easier to measure. Others are effectively beyond the project manager’s control. Still others give very different answers depending on the order of priority, such as the electric car example above. In a sentence, this varied order and weighting of common sense requirements is what gives rise to such different architectures in an immature product space.

SpaceNut · 2025-08-18 17:23:39

AI Overview
Mars cargo specification: Mass of consumables for a 17-person crew
Estimating the mass of consumables required for a 17-person Mars mission requires careful consideration of mission duration and whether life support systems are based on storage or recycling.
1. Daily consumption per person
Food: NASA recommends budgeting 1.831 kg/person/day for freeze-dried food.
Water & Oxygen: While systems like those on the International Space Station (ISS) achieve high levels of water and oxygen recycling (over 90%), some losses and additional needs for hygiene and other activities still require resupply. Some estimates suggest a daily need of roughly 1kg each of water and oxygen per person when considering an open-loop system, according to Quora. However, with recycling, water losses can be largely offset by the water content in food, and oxygen production from atmospheric CO2 and water ice on Mars (ISRU) could significantly reduce the need to transport oxygen from Earth.
Other Consumables: Hygiene products, medications, clothing, and spare parts add to the overall mass requirement.
2. Total mass for a 17-person crew
For a rough estimate, considering a long duration mission (around 3 years total, 6 months transit each way, 18 months on Mars) and assuming a reliance on resupply for all consumables, we can approximate a conservative estimate of ~3kg/person/day for all consumables (food, water, oxygen, etc.).
For a 17-person crew, over a ~900 day mission (round trip + surface stay), this translates to approximately 17 people * 900 days * 3 kg/person/day = 45,900 kg (45.9 metric tons) of consumables.
3. Considerations and potential mass reduction
In-Situ Resource Utilization (ISRU): The ability to produce water from Martian ice and oxygen from the atmosphere can drastically reduce the amount of consumables needed from Earth.
Recycling Efficiency: Highly efficient recycling systems are crucial for long-duration missions to minimize the need for stored consumables. Improvements to ISS-level recycling systems (which are roughly 90% closed loop) are crucial for Mars missions, according to NASA (.gov).
Food Production: Developing technologies like "green walls" could allow for on-site food production, further reducing the cargo mass required.
Mission Architecture: Sending cargo ships to Mars ahead of the crew to deliver supplies and equipment can optimize the overall mission, according to Universe Today.
In conclusion, while a rough estimate for a 17-person crew over a 3-year mission is around 45.9 metric tons, it's important to remember that this figure depends heavily on the mission architecture, technological advancements in recycling and ISRU, and the reliance on resupply mission

SpaceNut · 2025-11-27 16:55:28

Digging the material downward while it would allow for building on bedrock still means a huge amount of work to bring it out depending on how deep it gets. It would be simular to the open pit mines earth has.

To move 10 cubic meters of Mars regolith, you would need a tandem axle dump truck or a medium-to-large single-axle dump truck. A standard commercial tandem axle dump truck typically holds between 7.6 to 10.7 cubic meters (10 to 14 cubic yards) of material, making it a suitable option for exactly 10 cubic meters.
Dump Truck Options for 10 Cubic Meters
Medium Dump Truck (Single Axle):
These can hold a load volume of 3 to 6 cubic meters, so you would likely need two trips, or a very large single-axle model near its upper limit.
Tandem Axle Dump Truck:
This is the most efficient option, as its typical capacity of 7.6 to 10.7 cubic meters can handle the entire volume in a single load. Some models can even handle up to 13 to 20 cubic meters.
Large Dump Truck (Tri-Axle/Super Dump): These trucks have capacities ranging from 13 to over 25 cubic meters, which would easily manage the load, though the truck might not be operating at full volumetric capacity.
Important Considerations
Weight vs. Volume:
The weight of the regolith (Martian soil) is a critical factor, even more so than volume. The density of material matters in determining the actual safe load capacity to avoid overloading the truck's weight limits.
Martian Gravity:
The user's prompt specifies "Mars regolith," which implies an off-world scenario. The lower gravity on Mars (roughly 38% of Earth's gravity) would significantly alter the weight constraints and potentially allow a standard Earth-rated dump truck to carry a larger mass of material than it could on Earth, assuming the engineering for the martian environment is addressed.
Equipment Specialization:
For actual off-world operations, the equipment would be specifically designed for the Martian environment, likely featuring wider cutting heads or different axle configurations to handle the unique terrain and gravity conditions.

How Many Cubic Yards Are in a Dump Truck?

how%20many%20cubic%20yards%20can%20a%20dump%20truck%20hold.jpg

Larger dump trucks can carry approximately 10 to 16 cubic yards of material. However, the total volume is not usually the limiting factor. In most cases, the vehicle’s weight limit will determine how much material you are ultimately able to safely transport.

So a dump truck that we could use is

A tri-axle dump truck typically weighs between 25,000 and 35,000 pounds when empty, but can weigh up to 80,000 pounds when fully loaded, depending on the load and local regulations. The specific weight varies based on the materials used to construct the truck (e.g., aluminum bodies are lighter than steel), the size and type of the dump body, and the weight of the fuel and driver

SpaceNut · 2025-11-27 17:22:18

How to make metals from Martian dirt

AA1LeiSU.img?w=768&h=432&m=6

The idea of building settlements on Mars is a popular goal of billionaires, space agencies and interplanetary enthusiasts.
But construction demands materials, and we can't ship it all from Earth: it cost US$243 million just to send NASA's one ton Perseverance Rover to the Red Planet.
Unless we're building a settlement for ants, we'll need much, much more stuff. So how do we get it there?
CSIRO Postdoctoral Fellow and Swinburne alum Dr. Deddy Nababan has been pondering this question for years. His answer lies in the Martian dirt, known as regolith.
Building an off-world foundry
As it turns out, Mars has all the ingredients needed to make native metals. This includes iron-rich oxides in regolith and carbon from its thin atmosphere, which act as a reducing agent.
Swinburne University of Technology astrometallurgist, Professor Akbar Rhamdhani, is working with Dr. Nababan to test this process with regolith simulant—an artificial recreation of the stuff found on Mars. The work was published in two papers in the journal Acta Astronautica.
https://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retriev … 6525002814
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … via%3Dihub
"We picked a simulant with very similar properties to that found at Gale Crater on Mars and processed them on Earth with simulated Mars conditions to give us a good idea of how the process would perform off-world," he said.
The simulant is placed inside a chamber at Mars surface pressure and heated at increasing temperatures. The experiments showed pure iron metal formation around 1,000°C, with liquid iron-silicon alloys produced around 1400°C.
"At high enough temperatures, all of the metals coalesced into one large droplet. This could then be separated from liquid slag the same way it is on Earth," Professor Rhamdhani said.
Along with Dr. Nababan, Prof Rhamdhani is collaborating with CSIRO's Dr. Mark Pownceby to further advance the process. They're particularly focused on making metals with zero waste, where the byproducts of the process are used to make useful items.
If you can't ship it, make it
ISRU is a growing area of space science because in rocket launches, every kilogram counts. While the cost of launches is going down, the demands of human exploration are immense.
But huge developments are already happening, including the first demonstration of ISRU off-world: The MOXIE experiment onboard the Mars Perseverance rover produced breathable oxygen using only the carbon dioxide in the planet's atmosphere.
Metal production is the next giant leap. Professor Rhamdhani hopes Mars-made alloys could be used as shells for housing or research facilities, and in machinery for excavation.
"There are certainly challenges. We need to better understand how these alloys would perform over time, and of course whether this process can be recreated on the real Martian surface," he said.
But in the meantime, Swinburne and its partners are doubling down. Professor Rhamdhani together with Dr. Matt Shaw and Dr. Deddy Nababan from CSIRO recently delivered a four-day joint Swinburne-CSIRO bespoke workshop on astrometallurgy in South Korea, and the feedback was promising.
"We're starting to see increased interest in this field globally as the world gets serious about Mars exploration," he said.
"To make it happen, we're going to need experts from many fields—mining, engineering, geology, and much more."
For Dr. Nababan, the benefits go beyond exploration. He hopes their research will also drive more efficient metallurgy on Earth.
"By doing this, I wish that I can help the development of space exploration, and at the end it will bring good to human life here on Earth."

https://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.actaastro.2025.05.005

https://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.actaastro.2025.04.050

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#201 2023-08-20 15:47:02

Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

#202 2023-08-21 20:14:46

Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

#203 2023-08-23 17:57:40

Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

#204 2023-12-11 19:58:04

Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

#205 2024-02-07 16:48:04

Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

#206 2024-02-11 14:06:27

Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

#207 2024-02-11 14:49:40

Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

#208 2024-02-11 17:59:35

Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

#209 2024-02-11 23:19:48

Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

#210 2024-02-12 17:59:04

Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

#211 2024-02-18 18:35:46

Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

#212 2024-02-19 11:29:45

Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

#213 2024-02-19 20:25:48

Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

#214 2024-03-01 19:44:51

Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

#215 2025-08-17 14:08:04

Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

#216 2025-08-18 16:07:40

Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

#217 2025-08-18 17:23:39

Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

#218 2025-11-27 16:55:28

Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

#219 2025-11-27 17:22:18

Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

Board footer