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#227 2021-04-22 17:09:58

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,815

Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

buckwheat bump

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#228 2021-06-08 12:03:00

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,343
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Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

Not sure where to post this, so...

Researchers Create Soil Catalyst to Make Farming on Mars a Reality

Now, a team of scientists has developed a bioinspired catalyst that simplifies the perchlorate removal process and destroys 99 percent of the contaminant at ambient temperatures and pressures. The results provide “a water-compatible, efficient, and robust catalyst to degrade and utilize [perchlorate] for water purification and space exploration,” according to a recent study published in the Journal of the American Chemical Society.

The new research builds on past experiments that make use of anaerobic microbes, tiny organisms that live in oxygen-poor environments. Some of these organisms can survive by harvesting oxygen atoms inside perchlorate, which effectively breaks down the pollutant. The microbes can be cultivated to do this work in industrial reactors, but it can take weeks or months to establish working stability in this process.
...
“The motivation for our catalyst is that we just want to finish the work in a single day.”

“Right now, we have made it very stable, and it can survive under very challenging concentrations,” he added. The catalyst can be used to break down perchlorate at concentrations lower than one milligram per liter up to 10 grams per liter, which means it can be used in many contexts, from treating groundwater to detoxifying Martian soil.

To achieve this result, Liu and his colleagues developed a system based on the chemical element molybdenum, a metal that microbes use as part of their enzymatic harvesting of perchlorate. Using a mix of common fertilizer containing molybdenum, a binding molecule called bipyridine, a catalyst called palladium on carbon, and hydrogen gas, the researchers were able to rapidly disintegrate perchlorate in water at room temperature.

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#229 2021-06-08 17:17:09

louis
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From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 7,208

Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

Alternative strip off the first metre of regolith and then harvest the layer that has few or no perchlorates. My understanding it is solar radiation that creates the perchlorates so they shouldn't be there in lower layers.


RobertDyck wrote:

Not sure where to post this, so...

Researchers Create Soil Catalyst to Make Farming on Mars a Reality

Now, a team of scientists has developed a bioinspired catalyst that simplifies the perchlorate removal process and destroys 99 percent of the contaminant at ambient temperatures and pressures. The results provide “a water-compatible, efficient, and robust catalyst to degrade and utilize [perchlorate] for water purification and space exploration,” according to a recent study published in the Journal of the American Chemical Society.

The new research builds on past experiments that make use of anaerobic microbes, tiny organisms that live in oxygen-poor environments. Some of these organisms can survive by harvesting oxygen atoms inside perchlorate, which effectively breaks down the pollutant. The microbes can be cultivated to do this work in industrial reactors, but it can take weeks or months to establish working stability in this process.
...
“The motivation for our catalyst is that we just want to finish the work in a single day.”

“Right now, we have made it very stable, and it can survive under very challenging concentrations,” he added. The catalyst can be used to break down perchlorate at concentrations lower than one milligram per liter up to 10 grams per liter, which means it can be used in many contexts, from treating groundwater to detoxifying Martian soil.

To achieve this result, Liu and his colleagues developed a system based on the chemical element molybdenum, a metal that microbes use as part of their enzymatic harvesting of perchlorate. Using a mix of common fertilizer containing molybdenum, a binding molecule called bipyridine, a catalyst called palladium on carbon, and hydrogen gas, the researchers were able to rapidly disintegrate perchlorate in water at room temperature.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#230 2021-06-08 19:34:05

SpaceNut
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Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

If we are going to need to remove soils to get at what is less contaminated without an exploratory mission done before man gets there then we are just going to be out of luck....
If we are going with the assumption that we are doing a soil surface greenhouse is going to be more than a problem if we can not get good soils to grow in....

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#231 2021-06-08 22:21:58

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
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Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

Um, could I suggest Mars Direct? Yea, I know, in 2002 I suggested a modification of Mars Direct. I still think my modification is an improvement, but it's strongly based on Mars Direct. The idea is a human mission to Mars. Humans can dig and determine how deep perchlorates can go. I could mention that after Apollo 11, NASA promised a human mission to Mars in 1981. And they made major progress until Nixon killed Apollo. I could also mention that if Mars Direct were approved when pitched in June 1990, we would most likely have had an unmanned test of equipment to Mars in 1997, and humans on the surface of the Red Planet in 1999. We have the ability, we just need the will.

Mars Direct: does not rely on the greenhouse, but includes a greenhouse as a science experiment.

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#232 2021-06-25 04:43:37

Mars_B4_Moon
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Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 4,782

Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

Scientists grow a salad in Antarctica
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech … -soil.html

New Antarctic farm will grow produce
https://inhabitat.com/new-antarctic-far … degrees-f/

Study Looks More Closely at Mars' Underground Water Signals
https://www.marsdaily.com/reports/Study … s_999.html

A new paper finds more radar signals suggesting the presence of subsurface 'lakes,' but many are in areas too cold for water to remain liquid.

In 2018, scientists working with data from ESA's (the European Space Agency's) Mars Express orbiter announced a surprising discovery: Signals from a radar instrument reflected off the Red Planet's south pole appeared to reveal a liquid subsurface lake. Several more such reflections have been announced since then.

In a new paper published in the journal Geophysical Research Letters, two scientists at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Southern California describe finding dozens of similar radar reflections around the south pole after analyzing a broader set of Mars Express data, but many are in areas that should be too cold for water to remain liquid.

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#233 2021-06-25 19:58:19

SpaceNut
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Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

We have seen the Antarctica Conex box but its not practical in that is not producing volume of foods for use its more experimental...

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#234 2021-06-25 20:08:18

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 12,092

Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

For SpaceNut re #233

The link provided by Mars_B4_Moon appears to be about something not yet installed.

The claim appears to be that this is not experimental.

Can you provide a link to the Conex box you are remembering?

What nation was involved in developing it?

FluxBB failed to deliver posts containing the word "conex" ... it found all sorts of posts that seemed to have nothing to do with food.

(th)

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#235 2021-06-25 20:48:42

SpaceNut
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Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

The story on this starts back in 2014 or possibly earlier https://www.fastcompany.com/3029440/in- … es-on-mars

edengreenhouse_DSRviaFlickr.jpg?resize=640%2C361&ssl=1


more recent articles
https://www.space.com/mars-lunar-greenh … ca-harvest


q45wi85BBnkqqJxycAPEwX-970-80.jpg.webp

430 to 540 square feet (40 to 50 square meters) per crew member,

https://www.academia.edu/11762210/_Desi … ic_station

for the moon or mars eden project
https://www.dlr.de/content/en/articles/ … sults.html

greenhouse-concept-for-the-moon-and-mars.jpg?__blob=normal&v=7__ifc1920w

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#236 2021-11-21 06:45:55

tahanson43206
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Posts: 12,092

Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

For RobertDyck,

The article at the link below is about a book about soil.  I am hoping this post is a good fit in the debate you have set up here:

***

The article at the link below is about the value of soil for growing food. It includes the assertion that growing food in rich soil provides more nutrients than growing food in non-soil environments, but I suspect that may be more a reflection of deficiency in the practice than a fundamental deficiency in the method.

Never-the-less, I get the impression by a soil enthusiast would be worth considering by anyone serious about living off Earth.

It appears to be written for those who live or may live on Earth, but the principles should be transferable to other planets and locations.

If a member of NewMars decides to read this book, please post a synopsis.

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/solutio … 29732.html

The solution to climate change? It could be right under your feet
Jamie Blackett
Sat, November 20, 2021 1:25 PM

Pulling a carrot from the earth - Alamy
This is a very timely book. Farmers are pondering regenerative agriculture, gardeners are discussing “no dig” and we are all worried about reaching carbon “net zero”. But few of us know what we are talking about, largely because the scientific community has spent more time studying the stars than the soil on which our survival depends. As Matthew Evans observes: “For me, soil seemed dull and insipid.” Yet, “Good soil isn’t just an abstract concept; it’s a thing of wonder … There are more living things in a teaspoon of healthy soil than there are humans on Earth.”

Most importantly, Evans explains how regenerative agriculture that draws carbon out of the atmosphere into the soil so that it is “like chocolate cake’” (through minimising soil disturbance and exposure, diverse cropping and grazing livestock) is our best hope of reversing climate change. He quotes Stéphane Le Foll’s “quatre pour mille” idea: that if all the world’s soils under human management were to increase in soil carbon by just four parts per 1,000 (0.4 per cent) annually, virtually the entire global increase in carbon emissions for each year could be offset. Suggestion for Mr and Mrs Thunberg: please pop a copy of Soil into Greta’s stocking this Christmas.

Soil is published by Murdoch Books at £14.99. To order your copy for £12.99 call 0844 871 1514 or visit the Telegraph Bookshop

(th)

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#237 2021-11-21 10:14:14

Calliban
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From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 2,241

Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

The addition of fine charcoal to soils can dramatically increase soil fertility, by trapping ions at the edges of crystal grains.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_preta

Flash pyrolysis of dry biomass can produce 70% liquid fuels, 10% combustible gas and 20% char and ash.  A sensible approach would be to use the gas to produce the required heating, to use the liquids as biofuels for engines and to mix the ash and char back into the soil.  Using this approach, atmospheric CO2 levels could gradually be drawn down.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-11-21 10:33:40)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#238 2021-11-21 10:17:07

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

We would need to manufacture the charcoal on mars.
The question is what would be the source plant that would best fit that source.
Trees come to mind, are there going to be others?

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#239 2021-11-21 10:36:23

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 2,241

Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

SpaceNut wrote:

We would need to manufacture the charcoal on mars.
The question is what would be the source plant that would best fit that source.
Trees come to mind, are there going to be others?

One possibility:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscanthus_giganteus


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#240 2021-11-25 20:00:30

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,100

Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

I ran into this:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=El … &FORM=VIRE

Maybe it is of interest to some here.

Done.


Done.

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#241 2021-12-13 08:52:48

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,100

Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

I thought that this is really a good notion of how to start in space with agriculture.  Certainly to be considered for Mars, and Mars orbits, (Phobos/Deimos) as well

https://www.space.com/good-harvest-mars … antarctica
Quote:

Bounteous harvest in Antarctic greenhouse may bode well for Mars colonization
By Tereza Pultarova published 2 days ago

Antarctica is nearly as hostile as Mars.

I am not sure Antarctic completely compares to Mars.  Mars has some more favorable factors, but certainly not dealing with atmosphere.

I think that indeed it will be desired to eventually get to having crops under the sun's healthy photons emitted, but to start this may well be the best.  If nuclear reactors, as energy, then no crop failure per dust storms.  Also, you don't seem to need soil for this, I think.

Also, I think that something like this could be good for load leveling.  Curiously you might want to light up the plants at night when people are sleeping, then have the energy for industrial processes when they are awaks.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-13 08:56:02)


Done.

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#242 2022-01-17 19:27:47

SpaceNut
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Posts: 26,815

Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

bump

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#243 2022-02-19 18:38:46

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 12,092

Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

This product might work for either hydroponics or soil greenhouse situations...

68218.jpg

Apparently the LED bulb emits red and blue light in a spectrum favorable for plants.  It uses 24 watts.

The advertisement did not include mention of lumens produced:

With a blue light around 460nm and red lights around 660nm perfect wave lengths for promoting growth indoors. Consumes only 24watts of power, has 12 LED's and is about 4" in diameter similar to a standard spot light.

(th)

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#244 2022-11-23 15:13:55

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,815

Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

For those that want a surface mars greenhouse this is a less mass constrruction that with the selection of materials may work quite well.
Possible heat source could be from a modified RTG that gives power for the added lighting needs to allow for a faster food growth.

AAYMIBB.img?w=534&h=353&m=6

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