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#101 2025-10-02 08:09:57
- Void
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Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?
Yes payments of volatiles to Mars over time may improve it from out point of view.
But I suggest that we take out an "Water Loan".
https://news.uchicago.edu/story/icy-clo … tudy-finds
Quote:
Icy clouds could have kept early Mars warm enough for rivers and lakes, study finds
Simulation led by UChicago geoscientist finds missing piece to Martian climate puzzle
Quote:
Using a 3D model of the entire planet’s atmosphere, Kite and his team went to work. The missing piece, they found, was the amount of ice on the ground. If there was ice covering large portions of Mars, that would create surface humidity that favors low-altitude clouds, which aren’t thought to warm planets very much (or can even cool them, because clouds reflect sunlight away from the planet.)
But if there are only patches of ice, such as at the poles and at the tops of mountains, the air on the ground becomes much drier. Those conditions favor a high layer of clouds—clouds that tend to warm planets more easily.
The model results showed that scientists may have to discard some crucial assumptions based on our own particular planet.
“In the model, these clouds behave in a very un-Earth-like way,” said Kite. “Building models on Earth-based intuition just won’t work, because this is not at all similar to Earth’s water cycle, which moves water quickly between the atmosphere and the surface.”
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The hypothesis that high-altitude clouds on Mars could have caused a greenhouse effect is supported by a computer model study led by University of Chicago planetary scientist Edwin Kite. The study suggests that a thin layer of icy, high-altitude clouds could have kept early Mars warm enough for rivers and lakes to exist. This theory contrasts with previous explanations that suggested a collision from an asteroid could have released enough energy to warm the planet, which would only last for a short time. The new model indicates that even a small amount of clouds in the atmosphere can significantly raise a planet's temperature, similar to the greenhouse effect caused by carbon dioxide in Earth's atmosphere. The study's findings suggest that Mars' climate could have been warmer than previously thought, providing a new perspective on the planet's history and potential for life.
The University of Chicago
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So, by taking a "Water Loan", we may anticipate that the economy of Mars and the Solar System may become wealthier, and so in the future be more able to afford the transfer of non-local resources to various places like Mars.
If we go in the other direction, make water payments for 700 years, we take a heavy burden with weaker economic power.
Mars has lots of ice, but in the contest between dirt and ice, dirt is currently winning.
The kind of volcanism on Mars may have affected its climate, I think. If you had mostly viscous Hawaii type volcanism with lava, perhaps then you place more CO2, Methane, and Hydrogen into the atmosp0here.
If you have explosive volcanism, then you place more dust onto the surface of Mars. Then the dust may cover the ice and keep it from an evaporation/snow cycle.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerberus_Fossae
So, emissions of water, lava, and volcanic ash might make alterations to the climate from time to time.
China thinks that liquid water may have been present on Mars within the last few million years.
https://blog.sciandnature.com/2025/03/b … finds.html
So, perhaps the climate of Mars may be a bit like a continuing game or "Rock-Paper-Scissors", sort of.
It its earlier days ground heat, and a larger amount of water may have allowed the snow process to hold against the dirt process more of the time.
But now without an unusual event like a large impact or volcanic eruption, dirt dominates.
If we could pull a bunch of ice from solid ice deposits on Mars, it might fall then as "Dry Snow Powder". This could blow in the wind like dust does.
You might get a temporary cycle of High-Altitude Clouds, and dry powdered snow, until the water vapor got incorporated again into solid ice masses that were either covered in dirt or at such a high latitude that it is reluctant to evaporate again.
So, if we could tweak that we might be able to bootstrap the snow cycle back into action again, which would likely evaporate all the CO2, I hope and make active high-altitude clouds again.
And then if a biosphere could be established, the process of life might keep some methane flowing into the atmosphere from then on.
Even a high Arctic type environment might be helpful in that regard.
One possible way to get the snow started again would be lasers and microwaves to evaporate ice from the polar ice caps. But other ways like greenhouse gasses and particles may be good as well.
But then with Mars made more economically valuable, the ice consumed could be repaid by moving volatiles from the more outer solar system to Mars as you have suggested.
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#102 2025-10-05 11:03:38
- Void
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Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?
This aligns with my prior speculations: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA1NParK Quote:
A Rogue Planet Is Devouring Six Billion Tons of Gas Every Second
Story by Tibi Puiu • 1d •
3 min read
So even small worlds such as Dwarf Planets that could be tossed out of a solar system probably can collect more mass over time and become larger. This would bring in radioactive materials as well, so it might develop internal heating even to the point of open water, if the world got as big as Earth or a Super Earth.
Eventually if they wander into a stellar nursery, they may become brown dwarfs or even stars, I speculate.
And intelligent species that came to inhabit such worlds, might want to keep them relatively small by pulling matter off of them with space elevators and driving off excess Hydrogen and Helium.
Power on such worlds could be geothermal and perhaps Fusion, maybe even fission.
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#103 2025-12-04 15:21:33
- Calliban
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Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?
How the Inuit survive and thrive at -64°C, without modern technology.
https://youtu.be/gjoNsZlRkSk
Quite inspiring. As humanity heads out into the solar system and later into interstellar space, we will have to learn how to embrace the cold. The inuit provide lesson that we can learn from.
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."
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#104 2025-12-04 21:13:07
- Void
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Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?
I enjoyed the video. When I was younger I used to seek out information about the Inuit, the Norse, and the Polynesians.
As I recall, the Igloo was a temporary shelter.
They would have an oil lamp, perhaps made of carved soapstone: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qulliq
Image Quote: 
I think a woman maintained it.
How they managed keeping it lit or relighting it I don't strongly recall. That would help to retain heat.
They may have fixed a blanket or skin above them in the igloo. I seem to recall that. Not 100% certain.
They usually would not have endured the coldest winters such as Yakuts does, Yakuts is a continental climate where often the Inuit would be near the sea.
Rather than bring their outer coats into the interior of the igloo, they would brush the snow off of them and store them in the cold of the entrance as I recall. This was to keep them dry.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I agree that there is much to learn. In space generally where there will be water, it will be cold.
A multi-layer scheme can work. Something like Icecrete for an outer structure, with some protection to it from ice evaporation, and then
an inner structure.
But we can combine these sensible notions with some modern technology. I would consider grass huts if you could grow something like grass, and heat pumps instead of oil lamps. Where heat pumps will not consume Oxygen and yet could pull heat out of the "Igloo" air, and pump it into a "Grass Hut".
For flooring perhaps Patio Bricks with something like Styrofoam under it.
Nuclear Reactors to churn out electricity also very desirable. Solar as an additional contribution.
Thanks,
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There is a new discovery about the metabolism of the Inuit. They have something similar to the Denisovans. They can eat a lot of animal fats to keep warm. Neanderthal may have been similar. I think that their diet might not be good for us.
And that might have been the secret of the replacement of Denisovans and Neanderthals. If fatty food was not available, they would starve more than people who had our diet.
https://blog.everythingdinosaur.com/blo … rvive.html
Quote:
Extinct Human Cousin Helped the Inuit Survive According to New Paper
So, it might be sensible to give such an inheritance though gene grafting to many people who will go into space, provided that technology could generate a large supply of healthy fats to eat. This might allow for less life support heating. It might be possible at the same time 'Tweek" sensory structures to not feel cold at a lower temperature.
Similarly adaptations to thin air might be considered, from Tibet, the Andes for low Oxygen content, and those people who have an enlarged spleen who dive a lot, for temporary lack of Oxygen.
]https://www.zmescience.com/science/biol … en-042432/
Quote:
‘Sea nomads’ evolved abnormally large spleens to dive to unheard-of depths
Natives of Indonesia can dive up to 70 meters thanks to a genetic adaptation.Tibi PuiubyTibi Puiu November 17, 2022 in Biology, News
A A
I think that possibly a biomechanical artificial spleen might be considered.
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#105 2025-12-05 10:54:52
- Void
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Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?
I suppose I may be annoying you Calliban, but if you could design a dome shaped frame that is reusable, then a mix of fine ice particles and Mars soil could be piled on it. And a organic fiber such as from a plant or Mycelium from mushrooms, might be added. A microwave warming process used with a method to tamp the melting mixture would allow a freeze dome.
When completed, shading might be added to the outside using solar panels as an option.
You could then remove the original frame for reuse.
Then you might put a poly film dome inside of that dome.
Then inside of that dome you might put habit or farm methods, such as ponds for Algae, or a Mushroom farm, or even farming with vascular plants.
With an electric power source you might maintain proper temperatures using heat pump technology.
https://modernfarmer.com/2022/07/artifi … synthesis/
Quote:
Consumption
Cultivating Crops, No Sun RequiredResearchers have discovered a new way to grow plants using artificial photosynthesis, requiring no sunlight at all.
#Plants & Crops
by Shea Swenson· July 28, 2022
Electricity from nuclear reactors also very welcome.
Maybe this could be tried in the Arctic, Antarctic, and Alpine areas on Earth.
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#106 2026-05-14 17:41:16
- Calliban
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Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?
See here: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 21#p239321
A Pluto mass body could hold a nitrogen atmosphere with 28KPa surface pressure for geological timescales. This is enough pressure for humans to breathe, although the atmosphere would not be breathable.
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."
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#107 2026-05-15 06:11:38
- Void
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Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?
That is very good Calliban.
I think that Tholen's could be used to partition such an atmosphere.
Perhaps the bottom of the atmosphere might be warm enough for some Methane Vapors, and then cosmic rays would occur and Tholen's may result.
I am presuming that the manipulators of the small world would have effect fusion power to warm the surface, or some other energy source we do not know of.
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#108 2026-05-15 06:34:35
- Calliban
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Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?
For a body some 1500km in diameter (63% Pluto diameter) and mass 25% of Pluto, my spreadsheet indicates that a nitrogen atmosphere with a 25KPa surface pressure would lose 1% of its mass every 80 days. For a mass this small, there is no exobase within the gravitational influence of the body, resulting in bulk escape of atmospheric gas. The atmosphere is also very massive, with a column density 89.1 tonnes / m2. So a dense, gravity confined atmosphere would appear to be impractical for a body this small even in interstellar space. Maybe a more complex model accounting for real gas properties will change things. But getting the required data is difficult.
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."
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#109 2026-05-15 07:39:55
- Void
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Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?
I know that Mars is considered to be about the bottom size that could accumulate a Hydrogen/Helium atmosphere in the deeps of space.
An object of that size is thought to be capable of being a Steppenwolf.
We don't know how many objects the size of Pluto and up that the average star ejects into interstellar space, but it could be a lot.
I recall that someone had a notion of using a ramjet to create a new star. Of course, vastly beyond human capability for now and perhaps forever.
But if there are a lot of small bodies, could a long lived alien type, arrange to collide two small rogues together, perhaps to make a Planet Moon pair?
I presumes an entity with a very long life cycle, and that it could identify two objects that could be made to collide over a long period of time.
Not accelerating them to a high speed, but deviating their paths.
An Earth/Moon creation (But maybe smaller scale), once collided a large energy supply for a long period of time.
Certainly vastly beyond us at this time, but maybe some alien race could do it.
Maybe a Pluto/Charon scale thing.
On the other hand, I think that a object the Size of Titan, could accumulate Cosmic Dust which would include radioactive materials. The might have a naturally refueling reactor core.
These might be made to sustain an atmosphere perhaps, possibly even naturally, but more likely by beings using something like fusion power.
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#110 2026-05-16 10:06:05
- Void
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Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?
I have been thinking about it. Mars as a Steppenwolf Planet.
https://www.wired.com/2011/02/steppenwolf-planet/
Historically I recall reading that Mars size might be the minimum to hold onto an immense atmosphere of Hydrogen and Helium.
With pressures like that of an Ocean bottom. This could be warm enough for liquid water.
But Now I am thinking about Caliban's posts, and I believe that their would also likely be Nitrogen, Methane, and CO2. These gasses might progressively thaw to a gas, form layers, under the Hydrogen and Helium.
If we presume that any water oceans are covered with ice, then the CO2 may exist for a prolonged period.
Supposing that the Methane were even in small quantities a gas, then you might presume a layer of Tholen's. CO2 clouds also might exist higher up.
This world then if taken over by an alien people similar to humans, Might be able to live to set up cloud cities above the CO2 or maybe even above the Nitrogen layer. Or they might be able to set up on top of Olympus Mons.
Presuming that they would have fusion or something better, they could set off Hydrogen bombs to dissipate the Hydrogen/Helium layer.
As the world cooled they might set up fustian power plants to compensate for the heat loss on the surface.
The might be able to dissipate the CO2 into the Oceans.
So, then the planet would be theirs to use.
It would be helpful if such a world had a rocky moon like Phobos/Deimos/Luna.
The Nitrogen atmosphere might retain a pinch of Hydrogen and Helium that would infall all the time from space along with cosmic dust.
The Hydrogen and Helium might help the Nitrogen atmosphere to avoiding collapse.
Or an orbital heat source might be used.
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#111 2026-05-18 08:11:49
- Void
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Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?
A video about the Oort Cloud has stimulated some ideas.
As often is true I cannot fetch this on the "Bing" search engine on my computer, even though I got it on my phone.
"Find this video: Utube, The terrifying True Scale of the Oort Cloud, 13 h ago"
Never mind. It claims to suppose that the Oort cloud may be 1.5 light years across in radius. A sphere of 3 lightyears. (Sort of a sphere, maybe deformed by the galictic gravitation I suspect)
I started wondering if a humanoid life form might collect comets into a collection if they had the equivalent of fusion power or an alternative.
In the early universe only H2 and Helium types would be available. But looking at our Oort Cloud in my mind, I suppose that over 4.5 billion years, the output of explosive events will have condensed on those items that are beyond the sweeping of the solar wind of our star. So some heavy elements.
But then is the death of a star like ours death or birth? If our sun becomes a white dwarf, then perhaps 1/2 of its mass has gone into a planetary nebula. That may exist for a period of time where I am guessing some condensation on the comets will occur. So, some of the sun's mass will transfer to the Oort cloud and might condense on the small worlds that may be there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planetary_nebula
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Planetary nebula - Wikipedia
A planetary nebula is an expanding shell of glowing gas ejected by a dying star of intermediate mass, forming a short-lived, brightly colored emission nebula.
Formation and Structure
Planetary nebulae form at the end of the life of stars with masses between about 1 and 8 times that of the Sun. When such a star exhausts its nuclear fuel, it expands into a red giant and eventually sheds its outer layers into space. The remaining hot core, called the planetary nebula nucleus (P.N.N.), emits ultraviolet radiation that ionizes the ejected gas, causing it to glow in vivid colors. The expelled gas can form circular, elliptical, or bipolar shapes, and in some cases, complex multipolar structures due to interactions with companion stars or asymmetrical mass loss.
Wikipedia
+4
Appearance and Examples
Despite their name, planetary nebulae have no connection to planets; the term originated in the 18th century because their round shapes resembled planets when viewed through early telescopes. Famous examples include the Southern Ring Nebula (NGC 3132), the Cat’s Eye Nebula (NGC 6543), the Helix Nebula (NGC 7293), and the Dumbbell Nebula (Messier 27). High-resolution images from the Hubble and James Webb Space Telescopes reveal intricate structures, including rings, jets, and clumps of gas, sometimes resembling diamonds in a necklace.
Wikipedia
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Lifespan and Evolution
Planetary nebulae are relatively short-lived, lasting only about 10,000 to 20,000 years, a brief phase compared to the overall stellar life cycle. During this time, the central star first grows hotter while maintaining constant luminosity, reaching temperatures up to 100,000 K, and then gradually cools as nuclear fusion ceases. As the gas expands and moves farther from the star, it eventually disperses into the interstellar medium, enriching it with elements like carbon, nitrogen, and oxygen, which contribute to the formation of new stars and planets.
Wikipedia
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Scientific Importance
Planetary nebulae provide crucial insights into stellar evolution, the chemical enrichment of galaxies, and the dynamics of gas ejection. Observations of their shapes, chemical composition, and expansion rates help astronomers understand the late stages of stellar life and the processes that shape the interstellar medium. Recent studies using the James Webb Space Telescope have revealed complex multipolar outflows and interactions between central stars, highlighting the diversity and complexity of these cosmic phenomena.
Britannica
+2
So, the chemicals look interesting. Maybe they are too hot to condense on comets and dwarf planets, but then again is they coat these objects and cosmic rays act on them perhaps things like water, CO2, CO, and compounds of N2 form.
The point is that with an influx of Helium 3 and Deuterium, from the background universe, and the heavy metals from dead large stars and collisions of exotic objects, the Oort cloud of a white dwarf might be valuable to an advanced civilization.
You could make organic structure similar to wood, and plastics, and perhaps have a form of fusion.
The core of the star, as a white dwarf though, with diminished gravity might lose part or all of the Oort Cloud. But perhaps an alien civilization would collect many of the components of the Oort cloud into structures that it would use.
Red Dwarfs are not expected to do this and I don't think that Orange Stars are old enough yet for the Most part, so then I guess Yellow Dwarfs turned into White Dwarfs.
So, possibly how life might spread from "Dead" stars into the VOID, and then perhaps to seed a newborn solar system.
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#112 2026-05-19 16:41:47
- Void
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Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?
If my just previous post might be right in some cases, I was curious about white dwarfs where it might have happened in the past.
Query: "How close are white dwarfs to us?"
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Distance to the Nearest White Dwarf
The closest known white dwarf to Earth is Sirius B, the faint companion star in the binary system with Sirius A. It is located about 8.6 light-years away Wikipedia+1.Sirius B is an Earth‑sized remnant of a once‑main‑sequence star, now cooling and radiating only residual heat. Despite its proximity, it is extremely dim to the naked eye and requires a telescope to be seen clearly, often as a faint point of light near the much brighter Sirius A in the night sky Wikipedia.
Other white dwarfs in our galaxy are much farther away, but Sirius B is the nearest example confirmed by observation. In fact, some binary systems containing two white dwarfs — such as the one about 150 light‑years away — are considered potential future Type Ia supernova progenitors ScienceAlert.
Summary:
Nearest white dwarf: Sirius B
Distance from Earth: ~8.6 light‑years
Visibility: Requires a telescope; not visible to the naked eye
This makes Sirius B one of the closest and most accessible white dwarfs for astronomers to study up close.
I am not certain what white dwarf Oort clouds might behave like if they are part of a binary star system.
Query: "How many white dwarfs are there in our galaxy?"
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Number of White Dwarfs in the Milky Way
Astronomers estimate that the Milky Way contains roughly 100 billion white dwarfs — about one for every 100 stars in the galaxy docs.openspaceproject.com.Why so many?
White dwarfs are the final evolutionary stage for over 95% of stars in the Milky Way, including most Sun-like stars docs.openspaceproject.com. They form when a star exhausts its nuclear fuel, sheds its outer layers, and leaves behind a dense carbon–oxygen core. This process is common for stars with masses between about 0.08 and 8 solar masses docs.openspaceproject.com.How we know
Because white dwarfs are faint and dim, they are not visible to the naked eye. However, large-scale surveys — such as those using the Hubble Space Telescope and other observatories — have detected them in different regions of the galaxy, including the galactic bulge Science Mission Directorate. By combining these observations with stellar population models, astronomers can extrapolate the total number in the Milky Way.Key facts
Formation: From the cores of low- to medium-mass stars after they shed their outer layers.Density: About the mass of the Sun packed into a volume the size of Earth ZME Science.
Fate: Over trillions of years, they will cool and fade into black dwarfs, but no black dwarfs exist yet because the universe is not old enough docs.openspaceproject.com.
In short, the Milky Way is home to around 100 billion white dwarfs, making them one of the most common types of stellar remnants in the galaxy.
So, if some of them had a process like ours where some intelligence managed to expand into a planetary system, and then a Oort Cloud if one existed,
We think that Rogues come from:
1) Ejection from a baby star system.
2) Form like mini brown dwarf solar systems.
Now also:
3) When a yellow dwarf converts to a white dwarf, then it loses a lot of mass which may partly condense in the Oort cloud, it may be that some of the Oort Cloud will drift away.
So, perhaps Aliens may prefer the Oort and Rogue objects environments and not so much stars.
Just maybe......
I don't know why they would not build Dyson Spheres but if they existed, they might intentionally do panspermia to some worlds orbiting stars, I think, as their homes might drift around the galaxy.
If they wanted to monitor the seeds they planted, they might do a "Gary 7 to those worlds".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Seven
Videos: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ga … ORM=HDRSC4
It seems to me that s simulation could perhaps randomly create genetic mutations of possible value. But life planted on other worlds might also do it in the actual world.
So, if it was your intention to monitor or guide a "Civilization" you might do Gary 7's.
To collect samples and not bring dangerous pathogens, to your civilization in an Oort Cloud or Rogus, you might use robots.
To confuse the "Civilization" you might also manufacture "Stupid Aliens". Have them give chicklets to Hill Billies to cover for what you were really doing. Manufacture ridiculous stories, so to discredit actual mistakes made in collecting DNA and other things. Make the stories inconsistent as well.
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#113 Yesterday 07:05:35
- Void
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Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?
So, I think I can identify 4 basics environments in the universe that is told to me as existing.
1) Stars with Planets.
2) Oort Clouds.
3) Interstellar Rogue processed.
4) Intergalactic.
De we live in a simulation or is what we see out there like what we think we experience here?
If it might make sense that a progression of pattern goes 1, 2, 3, 4, or could do, who if anybody prevents the creation of Dyson Spheres or something similar.?
To some degree we are patterns in the material of matter, but the information of the pattern and not entirely only of the "Flesh" of the matter.
Patterns that replicate living matter, consuming unliving matter and dead matter. Dead matter perhaps once was incorporated into a "Living" pattern. Unliving matter is thought to exist as the larger part of matter.
So, if patterns in the material may host the software, which might be related to soul???
Either there are no overlords stopping Dyson spheres, or there is. If this is a simulation, then it is in error because we should see evidence of Dyson Spheres if it is to be a simulation that we might believe.
Either there is nobody who cares to make Dyson Spheres, or there is someone who stops others from making them.
In the first case perhaps civilizations change to think it is not worth doing before they get the chance to do it, or in the second case, an enforcer can impose its will to stop Dyson Spheres.
But of course there could be the case that almost nobody exists. And there is almost no pattern replication in the galaxy/universe.
Matter is almost entirely to the march of 9's unliving.
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#114 Yesterday 07:47:06
- Void
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Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?
So, referring to the last 3 posts, if we are in a simulation, why did the creators not put Dyson Spheres at the edge of our ability to detect them and also make a simulation where the rules say we could never get to those Dyson Spheres? If the purpose of the simulation was to mess with us and keep us chasing windmills, why did they make it the way it is?
They could make a simulation that indicates that we are alone, if someone did make a simulation, and if we do live in a simulation, if so, then why would they do it?
It may actually be real, if you believe that particles that are also waves are real.
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Faith??? Why???
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (Yesterday 07:48:05)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
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