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#101 2025-10-02 08:09:57
- Void
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Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?
Yes payments of volatiles to Mars over time may improve it from out point of view.
But I suggest that we take out an "Water Loan".
https://news.uchicago.edu/story/icy-clo … tudy-finds
Quote:
Icy clouds could have kept early Mars warm enough for rivers and lakes, study finds
Simulation led by UChicago geoscientist finds missing piece to Martian climate puzzle
Quote:
Using a 3D model of the entire planet’s atmosphere, Kite and his team went to work. The missing piece, they found, was the amount of ice on the ground. If there was ice covering large portions of Mars, that would create surface humidity that favors low-altitude clouds, which aren’t thought to warm planets very much (or can even cool them, because clouds reflect sunlight away from the planet.)
But if there are only patches of ice, such as at the poles and at the tops of mountains, the air on the ground becomes much drier. Those conditions favor a high layer of clouds—clouds that tend to warm planets more easily.
The model results showed that scientists may have to discard some crucial assumptions based on our own particular planet.
“In the model, these clouds behave in a very un-Earth-like way,” said Kite. “Building models on Earth-based intuition just won’t work, because this is not at all similar to Earth’s water cycle, which moves water quickly between the atmosphere and the surface.”
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The hypothesis that high-altitude clouds on Mars could have caused a greenhouse effect is supported by a computer model study led by University of Chicago planetary scientist Edwin Kite. The study suggests that a thin layer of icy, high-altitude clouds could have kept early Mars warm enough for rivers and lakes to exist. This theory contrasts with previous explanations that suggested a collision from an asteroid could have released enough energy to warm the planet, which would only last for a short time. The new model indicates that even a small amount of clouds in the atmosphere can significantly raise a planet's temperature, similar to the greenhouse effect caused by carbon dioxide in Earth's atmosphere. The study's findings suggest that Mars' climate could have been warmer than previously thought, providing a new perspective on the planet's history and potential for life.
The University of Chicago
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So, by taking a "Water Loan", we may anticipate that the economy of Mars and the Solar System may become wealthier, and so in the future be more able to afford the transfer of non-local resources to various places like Mars.
If we go in the other direction, make water payments for 700 years, we take a heavy burden with weaker economic power.
Mars has lots of ice, but in the contest between dirt and ice, dirt is currently winning.
The kind of volcanism on Mars may have affected its climate, I think. If you had mostly viscous Hawaii type volcanism with lava, perhaps then you place more CO2, Methane, and Hydrogen into the atmosp0here.
If you have explosive volcanism, then you place more dust onto the surface of Mars. Then the dust may cover the ice and keep it from an evaporation/snow cycle.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerberus_Fossae
So, emissions of water, lava, and volcanic ash might make alterations to the climate from time to time.
China thinks that liquid water may have been present on Mars within the last few million years.
https://blog.sciandnature.com/2025/03/b … finds.html
So, perhaps the climate of Mars may be a bit like a continuing game or "Rock-Paper-Scissors", sort of.
It its earlier days ground heat, and a larger amount of water may have allowed the snow process to hold against the dirt process more of the time.
But now without an unusual event like a large impact or volcanic eruption, dirt dominates.
If we could pull a bunch of ice from solid ice deposits on Mars, it might fall then as "Dry Snow Powder". This could blow in the wind like dust does.
You might get a temporary cycle of High-Altitude Clouds, and dry powdered snow, until the water vapor got incorporated again into solid ice masses that were either covered in dirt or at such a high latitude that it is reluctant to evaporate again.
So, if we could tweak that we might be able to bootstrap the snow cycle back into action again, which would likely evaporate all the CO2, I hope and make active high-altitude clouds again.
And then if a biosphere could be established, the process of life might keep some methane flowing into the atmosphere from then on.
Even a high Arctic type environment might be helpful in that regard.
One possible way to get the snow started again would be lasers and microwaves to evaporate ice from the polar ice caps. But other ways like greenhouse gasses and particles may be good as well.
But then with Mars made more economically valuable, the ice consumed could be repaid by moving volatiles from the more outer solar system to Mars as you have suggested.
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#102 2025-10-05 11:03:38
- Void
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Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?
This aligns with my prior speculations: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA1NParK Quote:
A Rogue Planet Is Devouring Six Billion Tons of Gas Every Second
Story by Tibi Puiu • 1d •
3 min read
So even small worlds such as Dwarf Planets that could be tossed out of a solar system probably can collect more mass over time and become larger. This would bring in radioactive materials as well, so it might develop internal heating even to the point of open water, if the world got as big as Earth or a Super Earth.
Eventually if they wander into a stellar nursery, they may become brown dwarfs or even stars, I speculate.
And intelligent species that came to inhabit such worlds, might want to keep them relatively small by pulling matter off of them with space elevators and driving off excess Hydrogen and Helium.
Power on such worlds could be geothermal and perhaps Fusion, maybe even fission.
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#103 2025-12-04 15:21:33
- Calliban
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Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?
How the Inuit survive and thrive at -64°C, without modern technology.
https://youtu.be/gjoNsZlRkSk
Quite inspiring. As humanity heads out into the solar system and later into interstellar space, we will have to learn how to embrace the cold. The inuit provide lesson that we can learn from.
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."
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#104 2025-12-04 21:13:07
- Void
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Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?
I enjoyed the video. When I was younger I used to seek out information about the Inuit, the Norse, and the Polynesians.
As I recall, the Igloo was a temporary shelter.
They would have an oil lamp, perhaps made of carved soapstone: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qulliq
Image Quote: 
I think a woman maintained it.
How they managed keeping it lit or relighting it I don't strongly recall. That would help to retain heat.
They may have fixed a blanket or skin above them in the igloo. I seem to recall that. Not 100% certain.
They usually would not have endured the coldest winters such as Yakuts does, Yakuts is a continental climate where often the Inuit would be near the sea.
Rather than bring their outer coats into the interior of the igloo, they would brush the snow off of them and store them in the cold of the entrance as I recall. This was to keep them dry.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I agree that there is much to learn. In space generally where there will be water, it will be cold.
A multi-layer scheme can work. Something like Icecrete for an outer structure, with some protection to it from ice evaporation, and then
an inner structure.
But we can combine these sensible notions with some modern technology. I would consider grass huts if you could grow something like grass, and heat pumps instead of oil lamps. Where heat pumps will not consume Oxygen and yet could pull heat out of the "Igloo" air, and pump it into a "Grass Hut".
For flooring perhaps Patio Bricks with something like Styrofoam under it.
Nuclear Reactors to churn out electricity also very desirable. Solar as an additional contribution.
Thanks,
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There is a new discovery about the metabolism of the Inuit. They have something similar to the Denisovans. They can eat a lot of animal fats to keep warm. Neanderthal may have been similar. I think that their diet might not be good for us.
And that might have been the secret of the replacement of Denisovans and Neanderthals. If fatty food was not available, they would starve more than people who had our diet.
https://blog.everythingdinosaur.com/blo … rvive.html
Quote:
Extinct Human Cousin Helped the Inuit Survive According to New Paper
So, it might be sensible to give such an inheritance though gene grafting to many people who will go into space, provided that technology could generate a large supply of healthy fats to eat. This might allow for less life support heating. It might be possible at the same time 'Tweek" sensory structures to not feel cold at a lower temperature.
Similarly adaptations to thin air might be considered, from Tibet, the Andes for low Oxygen content, and those people who have an enlarged spleen who dive a lot, for temporary lack of Oxygen.
]https://www.zmescience.com/science/biol … en-042432/
Quote:
‘Sea nomads’ evolved abnormally large spleens to dive to unheard-of depths
Natives of Indonesia can dive up to 70 meters thanks to a genetic adaptation.Tibi PuiubyTibi Puiu November 17, 2022 in Biology, News
A A
I think that possibly a biomechanical artificial spleen might be considered.
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#105 2025-12-05 10:54:52
- Void
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Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?
I suppose I may be annoying you Calliban, but if you could design a dome shaped frame that is reusable, then a mix of fine ice particles and Mars soil could be piled on it. And a organic fiber such as from a plant or Mycelium from mushrooms, might be added. A microwave warming process used with a method to tamp the melting mixture would allow a freeze dome.
When completed, shading might be added to the outside using solar panels as an option.
You could then remove the original frame for reuse.
Then you might put a poly film dome inside of that dome.
Then inside of that dome you might put habit or farm methods, such as ponds for Algae, or a Mushroom farm, or even farming with vascular plants.
With an electric power source you might maintain proper temperatures using heat pump technology.
https://modernfarmer.com/2022/07/artifi … synthesis/
Quote:
Consumption
Cultivating Crops, No Sun RequiredResearchers have discovered a new way to grow plants using artificial photosynthesis, requiring no sunlight at all.
#Plants & Crops
by Shea Swenson· July 28, 2022
Electricity from nuclear reactors also very welcome.
Maybe this could be tried in the Arctic, Antarctic, and Alpine areas on Earth.
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#106 2026-05-14 17:41:16
- Calliban
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Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?
See here: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 21#p239321
A Pluto mass body could hold a nitrogen atmosphere with 28KPa surface pressure for geological timescales. This is enough pressure for humans to breathe, although the atmosphere would not be breathable.
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."
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#107 2026-05-15 06:11:38
- Void
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Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?
That is very good Calliban.
I think that Tholen's could be used to partition such an atmosphere.
Perhaps the bottom of the atmosphere might be warm enough for some Methane Vapors, and then cosmic rays would occur and Tholen's may result.
I am presuming that the manipulators of the small world would have effect fusion power to warm the surface, or some other energy source we do not know of.
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#108 2026-05-15 06:34:35
- Calliban
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Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?
For a body some 1500km in diameter (63% Pluto diameter) and mass 25% of Pluto, my spreadsheet indicates that a nitrogen atmosphere with a 25KPa surface pressure would lose 1% of its mass every 80 days. For a mass this small, there is no exobase within the gravitational influence of the body, resulting in bulk escape of atmospheric gas. The atmosphere is also very massive, with a column density 89.1 tonnes / m2. So a dense, gravity confined atmosphere would appear to be impractical for a body this small even in interstellar space. Maybe a more complex model accounting for real gas properties will change things. But getting the required data is difficult.
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."
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#109 2026-05-15 07:39:55
- Void
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Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?
I know that Mars is considered to be about the bottom size that could accumulate a Hydrogen/Helium atmosphere in the deeps of space.
An object of that size is thought to be capable of being a Steppenwolf.
We don't know how many objects the size of Pluto and up that the average star ejects into interstellar space, but it could be a lot.
I recall that someone had a notion of using a ramjet to create a new star. Of course, vastly beyond human capability for now and perhaps forever.
But if there are a lot of small bodies, could a long lived alien type, arrange to collide two small rogues together, perhaps to make a Planet Moon pair?
I presumes an entity with a very long life cycle, and that it could identify two objects that could be made to collide over a long period of time.
Not accelerating them to a high speed, but deviating their paths.
An Earth/Moon creation (But maybe smaller scale), once collided a large energy supply for a long period of time.
Certainly vastly beyond us at this time, but maybe some alien race could do it.
Maybe a Pluto/Charon scale thing.
On the other hand, I think that a object the Size of Titan, could accumulate Cosmic Dust which would include radioactive materials. The might have a naturally refueling reactor core.
These might be made to sustain an atmosphere perhaps, possibly even naturally, but more likely by beings using something like fusion power.
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#110 2026-05-16 10:06:05
- Void
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Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?
I have been thinking about it. Mars as a Steppenwolf Planet.
https://www.wired.com/2011/02/steppenwolf-planet/
Historically I recall reading that Mars size might be the minimum to hold onto an immense atmosphere of Hydrogen and Helium.
With pressures like that of an Ocean bottom. This could be warm enough for liquid water.
But Now I am thinking about Caliban's posts, and I believe that their would also likely be Nitrogen, Methane, and CO2. These gasses might progressively thaw to a gas, form layers, under the Hydrogen and Helium.
If we presume that any water oceans are covered with ice, then the CO2 may exist for a prolonged period.
Supposing that the Methane were even in small quantities a gas, then you might presume a layer of Tholen's. CO2 clouds also might exist higher up.
This world then if taken over by an alien people similar to humans, Might be able to live to set up cloud cities above the CO2 or maybe even above the Nitrogen layer. Or they might be able to set up on top of Olympus Mons.
Presuming that they would have fusion or something better, they could set off Hydrogen bombs to dissipate the Hydrogen/Helium layer.
As the world cooled they might set up fustian power plants to compensate for the heat loss on the surface.
The might be able to dissipate the CO2 into the Oceans.
So, then the planet would be theirs to use.
It would be helpful if such a world had a rocky moon like Phobos/Deimos/Luna.
The Nitrogen atmosphere might retain a pinch of Hydrogen and Helium that would infall all the time from space along with cosmic dust.
The Hydrogen and Helium might help the Nitrogen atmosphere to avoiding collapse.
Or an orbital heat source might be used.
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#111 2026-05-18 08:11:49
- Void
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Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?
A video about the Oort Cloud has stimulated some ideas.
As often is true I cannot fetch this on the "Bing" search engine on my computer, even though I got it on my phone.
"Find this video: Utube, The terrifying True Scale of the Oort Cloud, 13 h ago"
Never mind. It claims to suppose that the Oort cloud may be 1.5 light years across in radius. A sphere of 3 lightyears. (Sort of a sphere, maybe deformed by the galictic gravitation I suspect)
I started wondering if a humanoid life form might collect comets into a collection if they had the equivalent of fusion power or an alternative.
In the early universe only H2 and Helium types would be available. But looking at our Oort Cloud in my mind, I suppose that over 4.5 billion years, the output of explosive events will have condensed on those items that are beyond the sweeping of the solar wind of our star. So some heavy elements.
But then is the death of a star like ours death or birth? If our sun becomes a white dwarf, then perhaps 1/2 of its mass has gone into a planetary nebula. That may exist for a period of time where I am guessing some condensation on the comets will occur. So, some of the sun's mass will transfer to the Oort cloud and might condense on the small worlds that may be there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planetary_nebula
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Planetary nebula - Wikipedia
A planetary nebula is an expanding shell of glowing gas ejected by a dying star of intermediate mass, forming a short-lived, brightly colored emission nebula.
Formation and Structure
Planetary nebulae form at the end of the life of stars with masses between about 1 and 8 times that of the Sun. When such a star exhausts its nuclear fuel, it expands into a red giant and eventually sheds its outer layers into space. The remaining hot core, called the planetary nebula nucleus (P.N.N.), emits ultraviolet radiation that ionizes the ejected gas, causing it to glow in vivid colors. The expelled gas can form circular, elliptical, or bipolar shapes, and in some cases, complex multipolar structures due to interactions with companion stars or asymmetrical mass loss.
Wikipedia
+4
Appearance and Examples
Despite their name, planetary nebulae have no connection to planets; the term originated in the 18th century because their round shapes resembled planets when viewed through early telescopes. Famous examples include the Southern Ring Nebula (NGC 3132), the Cat’s Eye Nebula (NGC 6543), the Helix Nebula (NGC 7293), and the Dumbbell Nebula (Messier 27). High-resolution images from the Hubble and James Webb Space Telescopes reveal intricate structures, including rings, jets, and clumps of gas, sometimes resembling diamonds in a necklace.
Wikipedia
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Lifespan and Evolution
Planetary nebulae are relatively short-lived, lasting only about 10,000 to 20,000 years, a brief phase compared to the overall stellar life cycle. During this time, the central star first grows hotter while maintaining constant luminosity, reaching temperatures up to 100,000 K, and then gradually cools as nuclear fusion ceases. As the gas expands and moves farther from the star, it eventually disperses into the interstellar medium, enriching it with elements like carbon, nitrogen, and oxygen, which contribute to the formation of new stars and planets.
Wikipedia
+2
Scientific Importance
Planetary nebulae provide crucial insights into stellar evolution, the chemical enrichment of galaxies, and the dynamics of gas ejection. Observations of their shapes, chemical composition, and expansion rates help astronomers understand the late stages of stellar life and the processes that shape the interstellar medium. Recent studies using the James Webb Space Telescope have revealed complex multipolar outflows and interactions between central stars, highlighting the diversity and complexity of these cosmic phenomena.
Britannica
+2
So, the chemicals look interesting. Maybe they are too hot to condense on comets and dwarf planets, but then again is they coat these objects and cosmic rays act on them perhaps things like water, CO2, CO, and compounds of N2 form.
The point is that with an influx of Helium 3 and Deuterium, from the background universe, and the heavy metals from dead large stars and collisions of exotic objects, the Oort cloud of a white dwarf might be valuable to an advanced civilization.
You could make organic structure similar to wood, and plastics, and perhaps have a form of fusion.
The core of the star, as a white dwarf though, with diminished gravity might lose part or all of the Oort Cloud. But perhaps an alien civilization would collect many of the components of the Oort cloud into structures that it would use.
Red Dwarfs are not expected to do this and I don't think that Orange Stars are old enough yet for the Most part, so then I guess Yellow Dwarfs turned into White Dwarfs.
So, possibly how life might spread from "Dead" stars into the VOID, and then perhaps to seed a newborn solar system.
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#112 2026-05-19 16:41:47
- Void
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Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?
If my just previous post might be right in some cases, I was curious about white dwarfs where it might have happened in the past.
Query: "How close are white dwarfs to us?"
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Distance to the Nearest White Dwarf
The closest known white dwarf to Earth is Sirius B, the faint companion star in the binary system with Sirius A. It is located about 8.6 light-years away Wikipedia+1.Sirius B is an Earth‑sized remnant of a once‑main‑sequence star, now cooling and radiating only residual heat. Despite its proximity, it is extremely dim to the naked eye and requires a telescope to be seen clearly, often as a faint point of light near the much brighter Sirius A in the night sky Wikipedia.
Other white dwarfs in our galaxy are much farther away, but Sirius B is the nearest example confirmed by observation. In fact, some binary systems containing two white dwarfs — such as the one about 150 light‑years away — are considered potential future Type Ia supernova progenitors ScienceAlert.
Summary:
Nearest white dwarf: Sirius B
Distance from Earth: ~8.6 light‑years
Visibility: Requires a telescope; not visible to the naked eye
This makes Sirius B one of the closest and most accessible white dwarfs for astronomers to study up close.
I am not certain what white dwarf Oort clouds might behave like if they are part of a binary star system.
Query: "How many white dwarfs are there in our galaxy?"
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Number of White Dwarfs in the Milky Way
Astronomers estimate that the Milky Way contains roughly 100 billion white dwarfs — about one for every 100 stars in the galaxy docs.openspaceproject.com.Why so many?
White dwarfs are the final evolutionary stage for over 95% of stars in the Milky Way, including most Sun-like stars docs.openspaceproject.com. They form when a star exhausts its nuclear fuel, sheds its outer layers, and leaves behind a dense carbon–oxygen core. This process is common for stars with masses between about 0.08 and 8 solar masses docs.openspaceproject.com.How we know
Because white dwarfs are faint and dim, they are not visible to the naked eye. However, large-scale surveys — such as those using the Hubble Space Telescope and other observatories — have detected them in different regions of the galaxy, including the galactic bulge Science Mission Directorate. By combining these observations with stellar population models, astronomers can extrapolate the total number in the Milky Way.Key facts
Formation: From the cores of low- to medium-mass stars after they shed their outer layers.Density: About the mass of the Sun packed into a volume the size of Earth ZME Science.
Fate: Over trillions of years, they will cool and fade into black dwarfs, but no black dwarfs exist yet because the universe is not old enough docs.openspaceproject.com.
In short, the Milky Way is home to around 100 billion white dwarfs, making them one of the most common types of stellar remnants in the galaxy.
So, if some of them had a process like ours where some intelligence managed to expand into a planetary system, and then a Oort Cloud if one existed,
We think that Rogues come from:
1) Ejection from a baby star system.
2) Form like mini brown dwarf solar systems.
Now also:
3) When a yellow dwarf converts to a white dwarf, then it loses a lot of mass which may partly condense in the Oort cloud, it may be that some of the Oort Cloud will drift away.
So, perhaps Aliens may prefer the Oort and Rogue objects environments and not so much stars.
Just maybe......
I don't know why they would not build Dyson Spheres but if they existed, they might intentionally do panspermia to some worlds orbiting stars, I think, as their homes might drift around the galaxy.
If they wanted to monitor the seeds they planted, they might do a "Gary 7 to those worlds".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Seven
Videos: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ga … ORM=HDRSC4
It seems to me that s simulation could perhaps randomly create genetic mutations of possible value. But life planted on other worlds might also do it in the actual world.
So, if it was your intention to monitor or guide a "Civilization" you might do Gary 7's.
To collect samples and not bring dangerous pathogens, to your civilization in an Oort Cloud or Rogus, you might use robots.
To confuse the "Civilization" you might also manufacture "Stupid Aliens". Have them give chicklets to Hill Billies to cover for what you were really doing. Manufacture ridiculous stories, so to discredit actual mistakes made in collecting DNA and other things. Make the stories inconsistent as well.
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#113 2026-05-20 07:05:35
- Void
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Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?
So, I think I can identify 4 basics environments in the universe that is told to me as existing.
1) Stars with Planets.
2) Oort Clouds.
3) Interstellar Rogue processed.
4) Intergalactic.
De we live in a simulation or is what we see out there like what we think we experience here?
If it might make sense that a progression of pattern goes 1, 2, 3, 4, or could do, who if anybody prevents the creation of Dyson Spheres or something similar.?
To some degree we are patterns in the material of matter, but the information of the pattern and not entirely only of the "Flesh" of the matter.
Patterns that replicate living matter, consuming unliving matter and dead matter. Dead matter perhaps once was incorporated into a "Living" pattern. Unliving matter is thought to exist as the larger part of matter.
So, if patterns in the material may host the software, which might be related to soul???
Either there are no overlords stopping Dyson spheres, or there is. If this is a simulation, then it is in error because we should see evidence of Dyson Spheres if it is to be a simulation that we might believe.
Either there is nobody who cares to make Dyson Spheres, or there is someone who stops others from making them.
In the first case perhaps civilizations change to think it is not worth doing before they get the chance to do it, or in the second case, an enforcer can impose its will to stop Dyson Spheres.
But of course there could be the case that almost nobody exists. And there is almost no pattern replication in the galaxy/universe.
Matter is almost entirely to the march of 9's unliving.
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#114 2026-05-20 07:47:06
- Void
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Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?
So, referring to the last 3 posts, if we are in a simulation, why did the creators not put Dyson Spheres at the edge of our ability to detect them and also make a simulation where the rules say we could never get to those Dyson Spheres? If the purpose of the simulation was to mess with us and keep us chasing windmills, why did they make it the way it is?
They could make a simulation that indicates that we are alone, if someone did make a simulation, and if we do live in a simulation, if so, then why would they do it?
It may actually be real, if you believe that particles that are also waves are real.
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Faith??? Why???
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#115 Yesterday 10:32:56
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Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?
I have somewhat involuntarily been considering an atmospheric shell for Titan, perhaps a bit similar to the one I have considered for Venus.
I consider that it has not been well solved, but I want to work towards an initial concept, so that I can think of other things instead for a while.
The hope is to keep warm "Down Cones" and yet keep the actual surface as cold as it needs to be to not excessively expand the atmosphere.
Methane as a problem and a possible resource. As a problem it may condense inconveniently on the structure and make damage. Or it might be used to make lots of structural materials, such as wood and plastics.
I am presuming an energy source like Fusion or less likely orbital mirrors that have heat engines that make electricity and then the energy beamed down by microwaves or maybe even lasers.
I have shown "Dual Air Flows" that will allow cold night air to pass through ports, and which may have turbines in the air flow. if the surface develops excess heat these flows might go up instead of down. So, a sort of controlled wind system with horizontal turbines.
It would be decided what to do with the Tholen's. They could be filtered out and used as a resource or increased. If filtered out, then the day side of Titan would have some amount of light more on it's surface than it does now. If you removed the Tholen's then the nights will get even colder, The day/night thermal contrast then would have more wind power, if the Sky's were made to be clear.
I am presuming that robotic synthetic labor would make the construction costs reasonable and that no life was found on Titan.
So, you would turn Titan into a massive heat engine.
If it would work for Titan, then maybe it could be done for Triton, Pluto, Eris, and other such lesser sized objects. It is not certain if these bodies could hold atmospheres sufficiently well, but it seems that some people believe that when Pluto is sufficiently close to the sun it has a significant atmospheric pressure.
Unlike for Titan, it may be desirable to find a way to extract more Ammonia for its Nitrogen, if it does exist in the subsurface of the worlds .
I like to think of how Starship would work for Titan, Triton, Pluto, Eris, and (Any others???).
It may be that for Triton, Pluto, and Eris, etc., an artificial magnetic field could improve atmosphr4ic retention.
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#116 Yesterday 13:17:14
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Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?
Based on hope from the just previous post, I have begun to wonder about the planets X, and Y which are proposed, but at this time not of substance "Yet".
For Planet X, my hope would be for either a Super-Earth or a Mini-Neptune, and that it could have significant moons. That is just wishing, but a moon the size of Mars or Earth would be quite a thing. I do accept that odds are not in its favor, but it could be.
The case for Planet "Y", is that it might exist and may be between the size of Mercury or Earth.
https://www.sciencealert.com/planet-y-a … lanet-nine
Quote:
"One explanation is the presence of an unseen planet, probably smaller than the Earth and probably bigger than Mercury, orbiting in the deep outer Solar System," astrophysicist Amir Siraj of Princeton University told CNN.
"This paper is not a discovery of a planet, but it's certainly the discovery of a puzzle for which a planet is a likely solution."
Since I am doing a lot of wishing here, I might as well wish for what I would want. Perhaps getting let down later will happen or not.
I have previously assumed to objects in the outer solar system; will either be having a dense Hydrogen/Helium dominated atmosphere or be having an extremely thick layer of ice over any rocky materials.
The is generally true all the way out to Pluto, but I speculate that if these outermore objects may be at times outside of the Heliosphere, and so I anticipate that dust clouds have encompassed such worlds at times. So, given billions of years dense clouds of dust may have deposited on to a presumed ice layer.
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How Dust Clouds Can Push the Heliosphere
The heliosphere is the vast magnetic bubble created by the Sun’s solar wind, which shields the Solar System from much of the harsh radiation of interstellar space. Its size and shape depend on the balance between the outward pressure of the solar wind and the inward pressure of the surrounding interstellar medium (ISM) — the gas and dust between stars www.weatheradar.com.When the Solar System encounters a dense interstellar cloud, the increased pressure from the cloud can compress the heliosphere, pushing its boundary (the heliopause) closer to the inner planets www.weatheradar.com+1. This is similar to how a strong wind can push a balloon inward.
Dust’s Role in the Interaction
While the ISM is mostly gas, it contains interplanetary dust (IDP) and interstellar dust grains. These tiny particles can:Scatter and absorb radiation, altering the local plasma environment.
Influence dust impacts on spacecraft and planetary surfaces, as seen in missions like New Horizons Wikipedia.
In rare cases, be part of dense interstellar clouds that interact directly with the heliosphere.
Past Encounters and Heliosphere Compression
Recent research suggests the Solar System may have passed through dense interstellar clouds about 2–3 million years ago and again around 7 million years ago news.harvard.edu+1. These encounters were so intense that they could have:Collapsed the heliosphere, briefly placing Earth outside its protective influence news.harvard.edu+1.
Allowed interstellar dust and gas to reach the inner Solar System, as evidenced by spikes in rare radioactive isotopes like iron‑60 and plutonium‑244 found in Earth’s crust and Moon rocks news.harvard.edu.
Potentially altered Earth’s climate by exposing the planet to more galactic cosmic rays and interstellar particles ScienceDaily.
Why It Matters
These events show that the heliosphere is not a static shield but a dynamic structure shaped by the Sun’s motion through the galaxy. Dust and gas from interstellar clouds can temporarily disrupt it, with possible consequences for:Radiation exposure to Earth
Atmospheric chemistry
Long-term climate patterns
In short, dust clouds (as part of denser interstellar clouds) can push the heliosphere inward, compressing it and even allowing interstellar material to enter the inner Solar System under rare, high-density encounters www.weatheradar.com+1.
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So, over 4.5 billion years there could be a buildup of a dust impregnated crust on a planet 'Y'.
IF planet 'Y' would have plate tectonics, unfortunately that might the cause the dust to sink out of reach. But more likely a planet smaller than Earth will not have Plate tectonics, or if it does, a thick ice layer above the a active rocky core would be too light to subduct into the rock.
The continuing input of cosmic dust would however increase the number of radioactive materials on such a world.
Eris appears to show geologic activity:
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Is Eris an Active World?
Recent astronomical research suggests that Eris is likely an active world, at least in geological terms, despite its extreme distance from the Sun.Eris is a dwarf planet in the scattered disc of the Kuiper Belt, about 2,326 km in diameter and roughly 27% more massive than Pluto Wikipedia. It has a very cold surface, with temperatures ranging from about 30K to 56K Wikipedia, making it inhospitable to life as we know it. However, studies using the James Webb Space Telescope have revealed surprising clues about its internal activity.
In 2024, scientists analyzed Eris’s methane-rich surface and found deuterium in some methane molecules. Deuterium is a heavier isotope of hydrogen, and its presence in methane suggests the methane was formed in a hotter, more active environment beneath the surface Astronomy Magazine+1. This is inconsistent with a completely dead, primordial body, and points to geologically recent or ongoing internal processes.
The spectral data indicate that the methane likely formed through thermogenic and abiotic mechanisms deep within Eris, possibly vented to the surface through geological activity Brian Koberlein. This could mean that Eris has a subsurface ocean or other internal heat sources, similar to how Pluto remains geologically active.
In summary:
Eris is not a “living” world in the biological sense.
It is geologically active in the sense that it has internal processes generating methane and other volatiles.
This activity is likely driven by internal heat, possibly from a subsurface ocean or radioactive decay.
So, while Eris is not a habitable world, it is an active dwarf planet in the sense that it is not a cold, dead remnant — it has ongoing geological processes Astronomy Magazine+1.
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Wikipedia
Eris (dwarf planet) - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eris_%28dwarf_planet%29
Astronomy Magazine
Eris and Makemake unveil surprisingly active natures to the JWST
https://www.astronomy.com/science/dista … telescope/
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https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Eris_(dwarf_planet)
Eris (dwarf planet) - Wikipedia
Eris is the ninth-most massive known object orbiting the Sun [24] and the sixteenth-most massive in the Solar System (counting moons). It is also the largest known object in the Solar System that has not …
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shapes.inc
https://shapes.inc › eris-rzpj › status
Eris's Current Status — Is Eris Alive? | Shapes AI
Eris remains an active dwarf planet in the distant Kuiper Belt, continuing to orbit the Sun while serving as a key subject in astronomical education and exploration.Images of Eris Is An Active World?
And it is more massive than Pluto, which makes it interesting.
Elon Musk may be correct about solar energy being more important than fusion energy, but probably not if you are trying to work with Eris or a Planet 'Y' (If it exists).
So, presuming that some type of fusion is possible or some other unknown energy source we might hope to do an atmospheric shell for Eris and planet 'Y' if it exists. (See the previous post).
Quote from the previous post:
This will likely be harder than for Titan as you likely have to inflate an atmosphere in the first place.
An advantage of being more outside of the Heliosphere which therefore might allow dust clouds to periodically refresh supplies of metals, radioactive fuels, and fusion fuels.
So, it might be that humans might progress world to world outward even deep into the Kuiper Belt, and even into the Oort Cloud, and even into the places where rogue worlds exist.
And Aliens may have done this as well.
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Last edited by Void (Yesterday 13:46:32)
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#117 Yesterday 20:01:05
- Void
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Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?
I want to explain this which appears in post #115 and #116 a bit more:
The color blue suggests atmosphere which resembles the current one of Titan. Mainly Nitrogen, but I think some Methane.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Titan
https://www.britannica.com/place/Titan- … atmosphere
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Composition of Titan’s Atmosphere
Titan’s atmosphere is dense and nitrogen-rich, making it the only moon in the Solar System with an atmosphere denser than Earth’s (about 1.5 bars at the surface, roughly 50% higher than Earth’s sea-level pressure) Wikipedia+1.Major gas components (molar fractions) Wikipedia:
Nitrogen (N₂): ~94.2%
Methane (CH₄): ~5.65%
Hydrogen (H₂): ~0.099%
Argon (Ar): ~0.0043%
Trace gases and other hydrocarbons Wikipedia+1:
Ethane (C₂H₆)
Acetylene (C₂H₂)
Methylacetylene (C₃H₄)
Propane (C₃H₈)
Diacetylene (C₄H₂)
Hydrogen cyanide (HCN)
Carbon monoxide (CO)
Carbon dioxide (CO₂)
Cyanogen (CN₂)
Acetonitrile (CH₃CN)
PAHs (polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons)
Other nitriles and organics
Chemical context:
The atmosphere is chemically reducing, lacking free oxygen, and dominated by nitrogen and methane Archive ouverte HAL.
Methane is broken down by sunlight and energetic particles into methyl radicals (CH₃), which react to form ethane and other hydrocarbons Science Mission Directorate.
These organics condense and rain out, forming lakes and seas on Titan’s surface Science Mission Directorate.
The haze seen from space is due to complex organic compounds (tholins) formed in the atmosphere Wikipedia.
Temperature and structure:
Surface temperature: ~94 K (−179°C) Britannica.
A troposphere extends up to ~42 km, with a minimum temperature of ~71 K at the top Britannica.
Clouds of nitrogen are absent because temperatures are always above nitrogen’s condensation point Britannica.
In summary, Titan’s atmosphere is a nitrogen–methane–hydrogen–argon mix with a rich inventory of hydrocarbons and nitriles, shaped by photochemistry and cold temperatures, creating a unique and complex planetary environment.
It is likely near the existing temperatures on Titan but could be a bit warmer, I suppose. Keeping the crust of Titan cold will inhibit the buildup of more atmosphere by keeping presumed Clathrates stable.
*A question will exist, if it is desirable to increase the Methane portion of the atmosphere by evaporating lakes and seas. Alternately it might be desired to reduce the amount of Methane and to use the Methane and water ice to make organic structure like wood and also plastics.
In the drawing the pink and red in the inverted cone enclosures are warmer than the ambient on Titan and it is intended that Only non fuel gases should be included, Nitrogen and Argon perhaps. I guess at proper temperatures CO2 might be included.
The inverted cone enclosures will be "Lighter than air", perhaps by warmer temperatures than the outside.
I have not shown sub enclosures which might be filled with even warmer N2/O2 mixes suitable for humans.
It is presumed that the "Green" Hydrogen balloons will be susceptible to very little leakage.
While I have used lighter than air concepts, I suppose stilts might also be included for support.
The scale of the plane of cones might be very large, as I am hoping that nighttime cold air can flow down into the turbines indicated, and then flow towards the day side.
I am hoping that this would turn Titan into a giant heat engine.
The Tholen's might be harvested as a resource to build structure from. This might "rev" up the heat engine.
But I am thinking that a form of Fusion will eventually be found that is suitable for worlds like Titan, even if not Economically competitive near Earth. Also, I think that concentrating mirrors will work OK in orbit of Saturn, so Titan could get power in that manner as well.
I am thinking that Starship should work very well for Titan as SSTO.
Granted the amount of Structure I am suggesting being built to make Titan as I have shown, is massive and maybe insane in scope, but I am thinking of almost infinite robotic labor to create it.
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Day Length of Titan:
https://science.blurtit.com/3348297/how … moon-titan
Quote:
Approximately 15.9 Earth days
A day on Titan lasts approximately 15.9 Earth days, which is around 381 hours. This is due to Titan being tidally locked with Saturn, meaning it takes the same time to rotate on its axis as it does to orbit the planet. Some sources may round this to about 16 Earth days.
If the Tholen's were partly or mostly removed from the Atmosphere, then Noon daylight would heat lower down causing a vacuum bringing the winds from superstation down closer to the surface. Yes the sun is dim, but the atmosphere is thick and the day/night cycle is much longer than that of Earth's.
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#118 Today 09:08:24
- Void
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Re: Plutoids and Rogue Planets, Titanformation process, a cold treasure?
I decided I wanted this information:
How many Dwarf Planets may exist in the Kuiper Belt and Oort Cloud?
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Estimated Dwarf Planets in the Kuiper Belt and Oort Cloud
The number of dwarf planets in the Kuiper Belt and Oort Cloud is unknown, but astronomers have made several estimates based on observations and modeling.Kuiper Belt estimates
The Kuiper Belt is a doughnut-shaped region of icy bodies beyond Neptune, containing many dwarf planets and comets Science Mission Directorate+1.
Observations suggest there could be hundreds of dwarf planets in the Kuiper Belt, with some estimates as high as 200 Wikipedia.
However, many large trans-Neptunian objects have low densities and may not be solid bodies, so the actual number of true dwarf planets (in hydrostatic equilibrium) could be much lower — perhaps only a few dozen or even fewer Wikipedia.
Known Kuiper Belt dwarf planets include Pluto, Eris, Haumea, Makemake, Quaoar, Gonggong, Orcus, Ixion, Salacia, and others GO ASTRONOMY.
Oort Cloud estimates
The Oort Cloud is a vast, spherical shell of icy bodies extending far beyond the Kuiper Belt, thought to contain tens of thousands to over 10,000 dwarf planets Wikipedia.
Many of these are in very elongated orbits and may be perturbed by a hypothetical Planet Nine GO ASTRONOMY.
However, the Oort Cloud is so distant and dark that direct detection is extremely difficult, so the exact number is uncertain.
Summary of ranges
Kuiper Belt: ~hundreds (up to 200) in some models, but likely fewer if only solid, gravitationally rounded bodies count.
Oort Cloud: possibly over 10,000, but many remain undetected.
Total (Kuiper + Oort): could range from dozens to tens of thousands, depending on detection capabilities and definitions of “dwarf planet.”
In short, while we have identified a small number of confirmed dwarf planets in these regions, the true total is likely much higher due to the vastness and obscurity of the Kuiper Belt and Oort Cloud Wikipedia+2.
While the majority of these will be too small for an open atmosphere even if protected by a magnetic field, if Titan, Pluto, and Eris can do so then, our solar system could have quite a few of them, and some might be as much as a light year or even 1.5 light years away.
Presuming that an energy source for them which is effective can be developed then that is quite a lot of worlds, even without going to another star system.
We are typically told that these objects will be of ice, But I expect that Red Giants and Nova have been getting the galaxy dirt for a long time. I think that these larger objects may have sucked up a lot of that dirt over time.
Query: "Amount of dust in comets?"
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Amount of Dust in Comets
Comets contain significant amounts of dust, both in their solid nuclei and in the material they release when near the Sun.Dust in the nucleus
A comet’s nucleus is often described as a “dirty snowball” — a porous mass of ice, rock, and dust. The dust component can be up to a few percent of the total mass of the nucleus, though the exact fraction varies by comet. This dust is embedded with ices and may include silicate minerals, iron–nickel sulfides, and organic compounds Lunar and Planetary Institute.Dust ejected into space
When a comet approaches the Sun, solar heating causes ices to sublimate, releasing gas and large amounts of dust into space. This dust forms the comet’s coma (a temporary atmosphere) and dust tail, which can extend millions of kilometers Lunar and Planetary Institute. The dust particles are typically sub-micrometer to a few hundred micrometers in size, with many being fluffy aggregates of smaller grains Wikipedia.Quantifying the dust
While exact percentages depend on the comet, cometary dust is a major contributor to the coma and tail mass. For example, during active outbursts, comets can eject tens of tons of dust per second into the solar system, creating meteor showers when Earth passes through these trails Wikipedia+1. The total dust mass ejected over a comet’s orbit can be substantial, especially for large, active comets.Composition and significance
Cometary dust is generally chondritic in composition, rich in mafic silicates (olivine, pyroxene), with some organics, presolar grains, and metal sulfides Wikipedia+1. Studying this dust helps scientists understand the early Solar System’s formation and the origin of materials in meteor showers.In summary:
Dust can make up a small fraction of the nucleus mass but is a major component of the coma and tail.
Ejected dust can be tons per second during activity.
Dust is both a physical and chemical record of the comet’s origin and early Solar System conditions.
So, I am guessing that the larger the object the better it can collect dust. If dust clouds intrude into the Oort Cloud and the Kuiper Belt, then I expect those materials to collect better onto the larger objects.
Generally, we are told that these objects were made 4.5 billion years ago, and it is implied that they have not accumulated more mass. I expect that if they have not experienced major collisions then they will have obtained more mass. Dust and some kinds of Ice seem probable.
It might even be possible that they are being refueled with radioactive materials in some cases.
So, if you have energy, I think these things could be quite a resource.
Oddly enough here is some support: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA23vwPL
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Scientists found stardust trapped in Antarctic ice. What could it tell us about our solar system?
Story by Chelsea Gohd • 4d •
3 min read
Eris is currently inside of the Heliosphere, but: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliosphere
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History
The heliosphere is affected by extrasolar effects, such as nearby supernovas or traversing interstellar mediums of different densities, and has significantly changed over the solar system's lifetime. Evidence suggests the heliosphere was shrunk to the Inner Solar System as recently as 3 million years ago, due to a nearby supernova, which exposed Earth to interstellar medium (which may have impacted Earth's climate and ecology).[5]
So, it could be that a world like Eris and for that matter Pluto could periodically accrete fresh materials from Interstellar dust clouds.
Both Pluto and Eris appear to be warmer than they should be. If additional accumulations can happen on a periodic basis and if there were a way for the radioactive materials to go into the interior of the world it might provide periodic heating.
If Earth were cast out of the solar system and maintained tectonic plate activity, it would have the means to increase its internal heating.
I don't know if this is possible for Eris or Pluto, maybe ice shifting might do it.
I actually prefer that accumulated dust would remain near the surface.
It is far out speculation; I cannot prove it. Anyway, with more and more dust from exploding stars and some collisions, maybe this is possible.
I do think of what might happen if Earth went rogue and drifted into a Star Nursery. Depending on exposure, it might become a bit larger, and more tectonically active or it might turn into a Ice/Gas Giant, I think.
And that brings another question, what if our solar system drifted into a star nursery? Very unlikely, I think but possible maybe.
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