Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other.

Void · 2025-09-10 10:48:30

I regard Dr. Johnson as a genuine professional. So, I want to be shy about covering up his posts with my own much less validated opinions. But I want to comment, so this will be an indirect comment to: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 38#p234238

I think that it is important to remember that unlike the Space Shuttle, there are no human passengers or crew on these ships. Therefore quality control does not have to be parinoid in level.

Here is an important quote from Dr. Johnsons post:

“We call it crunch wrap," Gerstenmaier said. "It's like a wrapping paper that goes around each tile, and then... these tiles are mechanically held in place. They're snapped in by a robot.” Using this "crunch wrap" material could seal the spaces between the tiles without using gap fillers.

So, here it seems likely to me that it will be possible to have a robot system in orbit that could inspect and patch a Starship heat shield, before any attempt to enter the atmopshere.

So, until humans begin to ride Starships though atmopshere, we have two things in our favor:
1) A heat sheild failure will not kill any people on board as they will not be on board.
2) It is likely that a Starship with need for repairs to its heat shield can be repaired before the attempt to enter the atmosphere.

This is a vast advantage, I feel. And allows for more risk taking.

And even after humans may ride through the atmosphere on a Starship the vast bulk of Starship flights to and from orbit will not involve humans on board.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-09-10 10:55:12)

Void · 2025-09-11 08:25:35

I will be very happy if the new SpaceX concept for heat shield tiles works out. No cooling fluids needed then, perhaps. Or maybe only special cases.

I think it is a bit like a V-Seal on a Bearing???

https://dicksonbearings.ie/dbdocument/2 … cument.pdf

I am not sure I understand, but I think if it is as I think it is, it may help a lot.

I also mention again that unlike the Shuttle Era, I think that if you are going to have Propellant Depots, and many space stations, it should be possible to have a repair setup which is robotic where heat shield repairs could occur.

This then reduces the chances where heat shield failures will destroy or damage a ship on re-entry to the atmosphere.

So, I think they likely have a good path to solving the heat shield problem.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-09-11 08:34:16)

Void · 2025-09-11 18:50:24

I think I see a possible future for Starship and Starlink, the subpart of SpaceX.

What I am speculating is that not only will they have specialized Starships that eject advanced devices into orbit, but they will probably want a ship that can repair and refurbish the units periodically. Perhaps a Starship with robotic systems on board. Perhaps also having some sort of electric rocket propulsion.

So, instead of dumping them into the atmosphere, they will just repair and refurbish, and refill. And perhaps also may convert the outdated ones into propellants that could be used in Magdrive or Neumann Drive.

Anyway, that occurred to me today.

Ending Pending

Void · 2025-09-12 07:25:17

I have been thinking of how perhaps with Starship "Slices" of value could be accessed.

The Pez Dispenser thing is rather interesting. Yes, it looks like it can push similar shaped objects into space orbits. So far this are to be Satellites for Starlink.

But it seems sensible that if other companies would make their devices of similar size and shape, those also could be dispensed to orbit.

In a "Slice" called "Microgravity Manufacturing", it might be that raw materials could be in pallets of similar shape and size, and perhaps finished products could also be held in those pallets.

So, then like birds exchanging food by mouth, as a parent and nestling bird might do. A ship might meet up with a station in orbit with similar payload bay door, and by mechanisms exchange pallets.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

But another "Slice" I have my eyes on involves the supposed Platnum Metal deposits on the Moon.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/24 … -the-moon/ Quote:

Trillion dollars' worth of platinum waiting to be mined on the moon
Mining craters on the moon could be more practical than extracting precious metals from asteroids, but it might also introduce new legal difficulties
By James Woodford
2 June 2025

I would argue that legal difficulties are not such a problem. A world where Platnum Family Metals are brought back to Earth is a world where an action will "Benefit All Mankind". It is not as important who does the service as that the service is done. And those who do such a service, deserve a reward for its doing.

But I am not only interested in the Platnum Family Metals, but also the regolith it may be mixed in. That should contain Oxygen, and also Metals and Silica that could be of value.

The Platnum Family Metals seem as though they will be distributed around the Moon, not just at the poles.

While I see this as involving Starship type devices, I think other landers that may be derived from other vendors may have merit. Electric Propulsion and also chemical propulsive devices similar to NOVA (Stoke Space), NEUTRON (Rocket Lab), maybe Terran-R (Relativity Space). Those perhaps upsized to fit into Starships Cargo Compartment?

The Platnum Family Metals may in part justify the operation and the production of Oxygen and other substances would be a byproduct.

The concept of Lithobraking which is apparently considered a joke, has evolved in my mind to perhaps not be a such a joke.

Suppose we made plastic bullets of a large size with bubbles of air inside and dropped them. Could we penetrate them into fine regolith?

We would be allowed to put a protective thin shell of metal around them to help if that were helpful, in fact.

My logic is that if you have to carry the plastic materials all the way to the Lunar Surface to a soft landing, you have to fortify the landing legs of the lander, and have to expend the propellants to land the payload and the legs.

The military makes shells that can penetrate concrete walls.

My expectation is that these "Darts" can be dropped from a reasonable height, either from a craft that will land or one that will not even have landing legs.

While the impact on normal regolith will be uncertain in results, if you sift out fine materials and make a landing receiver from them (Pile of fine dirt), the dart will embed itself into the dirt and will behave in a fluid manner as it penetrates. The dirt parachute is a bit of a joke but not really. The splash will help it slow down the load.

The dirt being cool may allow some materials that may evaporate to condense onto it.

The Plastics, of various types could be useful on the Moon to make structure and to make Fuels. The fuels would be useful to refuel the ships that will lift products including Platnum Family Metals to Lunar Orbits where electric drive propulsion ships may bring the products to Lower Earth Orbits.

Ending Pending

I will point out that terminal velocity on the Moon is not infinite, it is cut short by the shrinkage of time of travel. The faster the dart goes; the sooner it hits the dirt. The sooner it hits the dirt, the less speed it accumulates. The less speed it accumulates the less hot it gets on impact. And the dirt will both cushion and envelope the darts.

I will not claim that building materials will come from the Moon by this economic process, but maybe they will. Maybe we can get space solar power out of this as a byproduct, or maybe we have to have a mass driver.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-09-12 08:21:20)

Void · 2025-09-12 09:21:46

A way to visualize it:

So, this might not even have landing legs. If it had enough propellants from some source, it could act like a Sky crane and drop the plastic darts at an appropriate height and location.

Starship is Stainless Steel, so eventually perhaps something lighter might we desired, but for now a Starship propulsion system without Cargo/Cabin compartments, might be obtainable in a relatively short period of time.

Ending Pending

Void · 2025-09-12 09:51:10

A ship based on Stoke Space or Blue Origin landers, might be good near the poles for Hydro Lox propulsion.

But elsewhere, I would be interested in something based on NEUTRON 2nd Stage, where the landing legs would be made of plastics. The plastic legs would allow it to land, but they would be left behind when the ship took off with a load, to provide future fuel amount other things. The Moon itself could produce Oxygen for the propulsion.

The "Sky Crane Starship Locomotive" Drop system from the previous post could support the fuel and other needs by dropping darts of useful materials.

This may be better for places where Platnum Family Metals may be found at lower latitudes of the Moon.

While the Moon may provide Oxygen, electric propulsion may bring in materials such as Methane and Darts to Lunar Proximity.

These originally may come from Earth but possibly later from another source in the solar system.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-09-12 09:53:02)

Void · 2025-09-12 10:35:07

Further thoughts about the dart drop method: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 83#p234283 Quote:

A dart poking into the dust regolith might experience a variation on heating intensity. This would depend on the speed of insertion.

As a solid, even if it shatters that would likely be OK.
As a liquid, chances are it would solidify, on its outer edges, rather quickly, I think.
As a vapor, provided the dust pack above did not rupture, then the vapors might penetrate the regolith and solidify.

The mixture of dust and plastic could be put into a pyrolysis oven, to facilitate the reduction of the dust and the production of H20 and CO2, presuming the plastic be largely of Carbon and Hydrogen in content.

Then various methods could be used to split the CO2 and H20, to produce various products including Oxygen and Fuels.

The reduced dust may be a product worth lifting to Lunar Orbit. The level of reduction might be metered as you may want to extract the remainder Oxygen in Lunar orbit or even in LEO, if it were brought to LEO.

It may be an undesired expense but the dust for the receiver might be cooled and piled up in the Lunar Night Time.

That would require a lot of physical manipulation though.

But dust cooled to a very low temperature and piled up as a receiver, might be better at vaporized plastics.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-09-12 10:44:22)

Void · 2025-09-12 18:15:45

I have suggested things like this before: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 86#p234286
Quote:

A way to visualize it:

If you don't want to bother with the Plastic Darts, then you could attach 100 tons of Styrofoam, or Beadboard, or hay bales, to the sides of the ship.

You could operate it in sky crane mode without legs or with legs, but if you try landing of course you have to worry about bumping into the stuff you just dumped overboard. It may be bouncing around or in the ships path to land.

In any case I would recommend robots that sweep up the fines of dust and maybe gravel, both as a resource, and to keep things cleaner. With the dust gone stones of value might be exposed. It could be science value or maybe rocks with Platnum Family Metals in them or maybe Nickle/Iron impactors.

The dust and fines may have .5% reduced Iron in them so that could be separated out as it is collected, I would hope.

A possible progression of process may involve putting the dust and fines into an oven with plastics or hay, and doing pyrolysis on them to the extent desired. You may not want to pull all of the Oxygen out, as if the product is to be shipped to orbit, the Oxygen may be wanted there.

H20 and CO2 will be produced and those can be subject to Oxygen Extraction to produce Hydrogen and CO if desired.
Chemicals can be presented to microbes. It could also be Oxygen and Acetate if you manufactured those. Then you mix that with the already partially reduced dust and fine regolith.

This would give opportunity to mine substances out of the mix using microbes.

These are options, not mandates, other concepts may apply.

But the mix after being mined and the microbes grown, can then perhaps be used to grow Mushrooms. Those could be for food, but things like a leather and other things are possible.

Then the Mushroom bedding could be subjected to pyrolysis again, to recover most of the Carbon and Hydrogen.

The treated Dust and Fines then could be shipped to orbit, having some Oxygen still in it.

Obviously I am hoping that Platnum Family Metals may be of significant value to ship as well.
And if the base were in the area where Lunar Kreep exists, then perhaps some other materials might be recovered.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KREEP
Quote:

KREEP, an acronym built from the letters K (the atomic symbol for potassium), REE (rare-earth elements) and P (for phosphorus), is a geochemical component of some lunar impact breccia and basaltic rocks. Its most significant feature is somewhat enhanced concentration of a majority of so-called "incompatible" elements[1] (those that are concentrated in the liquid phase during magma crystallization) and the heat-producing elements, namely radioactive uranium, thorium, and potassium (due to presence of the radioactive 40K).[2]
Typical composition
The typical composition of KREEP includes about one percent, by mass, of potassium and phosphorus oxides, 20 to 25 parts per million of rubidium, and a concentration of the element lanthanum that is 300 to 350 times the concentrations found in carbonaceous chondrites.[3] Most of potassium, phosphorus and rare-earth elements in KREEP basalts are incorporated in the grains of the phosphate minerals apatite and merrillite.[4]

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-09-12 18:35:17)

Void · 2025-09-12 18:54:09

I thought of this today:

For worlds that have small axis tilt.

If all the exposed surfaces could be made mirror with Aluminum coatings, then it might make a reasonable storage for cold.

The inside of the torus on the surface, resembling a amphitheater would be fairly sheltered from radiation from the sun, and quite a lot of GCR. Maybe sheltered from as much as 75% of GCR?

Presumably mostly made from sintered or cast blocks of regolith.

It might have use., but more so for the radiation protection at high latitudes. You might add containers of polar ice over any machines that you would host inside of the amphitheater. This would add more radiation protection.

The structure might somehow be incorporated into a heat engine I would hope.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-09-12 19:00:47)

Void · 2025-09-13 08:32:32

Looking again at the possibility of a revision of Starship as a "Sky-Crane": https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 86#p234286
Quote:

A way to visualize it:

I am sure that I have visited these ideas before to some extent.

The dry mass of the cargo and cone chambers, also having landing legs optional.

The "Cargo" depending from the sides of the vehicle to be released appropriately.

This one would spin to deploy its cargo:

The spin is to keep the cargo out of the plume of the raptors.

When appropriate the paired loads would be released at the same time.

The hope is to keep the plume above the surface to the extent that it will not launch regolith into ballistic or orbital pathways.

While a subsequent landing on legs is not prohibited, if you have a good landing pad, the legs could be eliminated if the ship will not land but return to an orbital propellant and resource depot.

Probably the game with this would be to keep using the Sky Crane to deploy loads until the ship crashes or until there are no more loads to deploy.

Some plastic or organic materials might be the majority of the loads, but perhaps inside some other things could ride along. Things not available to find or make on the Moon.

But where I think that plastics or organics could be assistive to generate propellants on the Moon and for other purposes, you would want ships that can land. They would bring down more delicate cargo, and may bring things like fuels and Oxygen up to a Depot.

In general, I think it may be easier to store cryo-fluids on the Moon than in orbits of it. This would be because insulations and shades and power and pumps could in part be made from Lunar materials.

The Lunar night of course is rather cold in many places.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-09-13 08:53:43)

Void · 2025-09-13 19:35:53

So, stuck in the 70's is the idea that the Moon, has water ice and maybe even dry ice at it's poles. Will Apollo type technology, of course that should be regarded as a necessary condition.

With Starship and the hoped for electric propulsions, we have massive lift like the Panama Canal, and efficient ocean going ships to ship large amounts of Cargo.

The surface of the Earth is rather ideal to make materials that would be useful on the Moon. If you could get the raw materials to LEO, then with human telepresence labor and robots in orbit, also it may be possible to manufacture things needed on the Moon.

The polar ice masses on the Moon, do suggest to make the things there, but we don't know if it is that easy to make these things on the Moon from local materials. It can be yes or no, it is probably not as easy as just saying it could be done. But I definitely think it should be tried.

If you were also to consider making these things from Mars/Phobos/Deimos and ship them by electric rocket to orbits of the Moon, is not out of the question. Electric propulsion and time might do the deed.

Similarly, from the Asteroid Belt as well. These are all possibilities. If what is most wanted on the Moon is plastics and organic materials, there may be many paths. And with patience, robots, electric propulsion, and energy, these things could be brought to the Moon from various sources.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-09-13 19:43:34)

Void · Yesterday 05:09:27

The lag in thinking updates hampers proper utilization of the Moon and causes an improper evaluation of the value of the Moon.

It is also s suspicion of mine, that contests in goals are in part the process of rendering the human population captive to the selfish desires of some. There are some who don't even think that humans should leave the Earth. But they love to tap the money stream that can come from pretending to be faithful to the dream. That is my dark suspicion. They are indeed intelligent people, but value their positions in "Intellectual" hierarchy power centers, more than to actually achieve the dream goal. So, their nature can range as various shades of symbiotic to parasitic, with more of the parasite, I am afraid.

But they are just a natural factor that has to be delt with in some way, disease of the body of purpose, similar to things that afflict our physical bodies.

I will say that the Moon needs an updated evaluation. In the 60's and 70's we needed to find a Moon that we could live Earth-Like lives on. That was not available and is not available. And to make it worse, those who wanted to confiscate the money flow of Apollo, to put to other purposes, and to facilitate their parasitic desires, seemed to have worked overtime to make the Moon seem entirely worthless. Saying it was bone-dry, which begs the question: "What does that mean?".

A bone on the bottom of an ocean is not dry. But the words served their purpose.

But there was a desire to have a space program so that white collars could have nests to dwell in, and corporate porksters could draw money. You should not think I am ungrateful for the fact that this at lest continued space, and to a slow degree the continuing advancement of science and technology. But I want to say that I think that we should be better than that now.

So, we had the Moon blackout, and the robot Mars, as space was now for the elites only.

The Space Shuttle was a nice attempt, but I really don't think it was intended to actually be successful. It was a method to tap into the money stream, and to promote technology. But again, I am not ungrateful that we have made it here. It would have been nice to do it better though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerard_K._O%27Neill and company were wonderful dreamers and gave us hope. But they did not know the same Moon we know now.

The major feature of their thinking was that the Moon was a bunch of rocks, and a Mass Driver could send them to an L4 or L5 to make things with. I am not ungrateful, but the plan sort of did not quite explain where the water and Nitrogen and Carbon would come from. Certainly not the Moon. The Earth was impossible to lift them from, so maybe the Asteroid Belt?

Maybe these things will eventually happen somewhere somehow, if we persist in actions though time.

I think however in 2025 we are arriving at a Moon where a little bit can go a long way. Just as an animal that is adapted to desert will be much more successful than one that expects to live in a swamp if a desert is what is available.

Robots and automation, make animation on the Moon require less water, Carbon, and Nitrogen to accomplish significant things on the Moon now. And Telepresence in theory would allow anyone who desired to visit the Moon virtually.

But where the poles may have some water, a bit of Carbon, and very little Nitrogen, even so, that may be a lot.

And unlike the Mass Driver crowd, I am also interested in how to get more Hydrogen, Carbon, and Nitrogen to the Moon at a reasonable cost.

So, I think that these ideas may be helpful for that: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 03#p234303

Quote:

I am sure that I have visited these ideas before to some extent.
The dry mass of the cargo and cone chambers, also having landing legs optional.
The "Cargo" depending from the sides of the vehicle to be released appropriately.
This one would spin to deploy its cargo:
The spin is to keep the cargo out of the plume of the raptors.
When appropriate the paired loads would be released at the same time.
The hope is to keep the plume above the surface to the extent that it will not launch regolith into ballistic or orbital pathways.
While a subsequent landing on legs is not prohibited, if you have a good landing pad, the legs could be eliminated if the ship will not land but return to an orbital propellant and resource depot.
Probably the game with this would be to keep using the Sky Crane to deploy loads until the ship crashes or until there are no more loads to deploy.
Some plastic or organic materials might be the majority of the loads, but perhaps inside some other things could ride along. Things not available to find or make on the Moon.
But where I think that plastics or organics could be assistive to generate propellants on the Moon and for other purposes, you would want ships that can land. They would bring down more delicate cargo, and may bring things like fuels and Oxygen up to a Depot.

I do understand that at first, the Moon is not a direct steppingstone to Mars/Phobos/Deimos. Mars/Phobos/Deimos is its own thing. But we do not know. Depending on directions in development and direction, it may be that the Moon and its orbits will eventually become a place you can launch missions to the rest of the solar system from.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Yesterday 05:43:13)

Void · Yesterday 06:23:19

This is nice: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE
SpaceX's new Lunar Starship Option to Go Back to the Moon: Shorter & Launch from LEO...

Tim Dodd: 400 Ton Stubby HLS Starship.

You lose the Superheavy though to get it up to LEO.

I have already supported Starboat or a "Shortie HLS".

This concept needs a Depot as a orbital 1st Stage, and then the Stubby HLS would be the 2nd stage.

Also Dr. Zubrin has things to say about Dragon and also Falcon Heavy to access the Moon.

I consider all of this as being worth further thinking.

Ending Pending

I also make mention that the focus on the Lunar Poles, does not anticipate possible Platnum Family Metals that may be at lower latitudes. And lower latitudes are easier to access anyway.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Yesterday 06:30:13)

Void · Yesterday 10:49:18

At first I misunderstood why Tim Dodds, concept would expend a Superheavy. So, I thought of something. But it is not directly appropriate to saving the Super Heavy. But I will present the idea anyway as it could be food for someone's imagination.

I need a drawing.... OK, this violates the "Can, within a Can" mandate usually followed by SpaceX/Elon Musk and co.

The three or more sections do not share common bulkheads. But I feel that we could make a "Stubby" for Tim Dodd, by stacking #1 and #3.

But it would be possible to add multiple sections #2 stacked on each other as another option.

The option to flow propellants into the Locomotive Section #3, from an Auxiliary Tank #2, might be exercised while firing the rocket engines, but that might require piping and valves that are too big.

So, rather, I imagine that when the Locomotive Tank #3 runs dry, you coast for a while but maybe firing a small engine only, while you pump out the Auxiliary Tank #2 into #3. Then you fire up more engines if you feel you need to.

A Lunar Starship might have 1 or 2 or even more Auxiliary Tanks #2 and reach orbit from the surface of the Earth, (I hope).

Locomotives #3 would likely be used on the Moon until they crash. Cargo/Cabin #1 sections might often be left on the Moon as habitat or contribute to making a space station.

#2, Auxiliary Tanks might be accumulated for Reuse.

So, to go to the Moon, a Cabin/Cargo #1 might have several Auxiliary #2's attached to it. And one #3 Locomotive Section. This stack would get it to the Moon orbits where #1, and #3 would be separated from the stack of #2 Auxiliary Tanks. The Auxiliary Tanks would remain in orbit of the Moon until removed by something like an electric rocket.

The Stubby Stack then of #1 and #3 would land on the Moon and perhaps ascend back up together, or the #1 Cabin/Cargo would be removed by some means, and the #3 Locomotive would ascend and be used, to drop more cargo by means similar to what is in this post: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 20#p234320

Quote:

I am sure that I have visited these ideas before to some extent.
The dry mass of the cargo and cone chambers, also having landing legs optional.
The "Cargo" depending from the sides of the vehicle to be released appropriately.
This one would spin to deploy its cargo:
The spin is to keep the cargo out of the plume of the raptors.
When appropriate the paired loads would be released at the same time.
The hope is to keep the plume above the surface to the extent that it will not launch regolith into ballistic or orbital pathways.
While a subsequent landing on legs is not prohibited, if you have a good landing pad, the legs could be eliminated if the ship will not land but return to an orbital propellant and resource depot.
Probably the game with this would be to keep using the Sky Crane to deploy loads until the ship crashes or until there are no more loads to deploy.
Some plastic or organic materials might be the majority of the loads, but perhaps inside some other things could ride along. Things not available to find or make on the Moon.
But where I think that plastics or organics could be assistive to generate propellants on the Moon and for other purposes, you would want ships that can land. They would bring down more delicate cargo, and may bring things like fuels and Oxygen up to a Depot.

A means to get people back to Earth could involve Orion or Dragon, at least in the early days.

Most mass however would go to the Moon, except that it may be desirable to have a means to retrieve the Auxiliary Tanks #2 to a lower Earth orbit, perhaps by Electric Rocket.

An exception might be if valuable metals can be found and mined on the Moon, such as Platnum Family Metals.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Yesterday 11:16:54)

Void · Yesterday 21:08:45

Probably the sky crane has been understood already, but I like it so much, I want to speak of it some further amount.

Quote:

I am sure that I have visited these ideas before to some extent.
The dry mass of the cargo and cone chambers, also having landing legs optional.
The "Cargo" depending from the sides of the vehicle to be released appropriately.
This one would spin to deploy its cargo:
The spin is to keep the cargo out of the plume of the raptors.
When appropriate the paired loads would be released at the same time.
The hope is to keep the plume above the surface to the extent that it will not launch regolith into ballistic or orbital pathways.
While a subsequent landing on legs is not prohibited, if you have a good landing pad, the legs could be eliminated if the ship will not land but return to an orbital propellant and resource depot.
Probably the game with this would be to keep using the Sky Crane to deploy loads until the ship crashes or until there are no more loads to deploy.
Some plastic or organic materials might be the majority of the loads, but perhaps inside some other things could ride along. Things not available to find or make on the Moon.
But where I think that plastics or organics could be assistive to generate propellants on the Moon and for other purposes, you would want ships that can land. They would bring down more delicate cargo, and may bring things like fuels and Oxygen up to a Depot.

The sky crane is somewhat like NASA's method to drop Curiosity and Perseverance, except for the spin.

But the payloads (Green circles), are somewhat like the impact bags that Opportunity and Spirit were landed with the assistance of. https://ilcdoverastrospace.com/products/impact-bags/

I don't know how well bubble wrap would survive in the vacuum of space. Probably a different version is required.

But something like that is sort of what is desired: https://www.lowes.com/pl/moving-boxes-s … 719e2f6ea5
Image Quote: 72001832.jpeg?size=xl

I have seen notions of Kevlar air bags as well, whatever will work: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevlar
This formula looks promising, Quote:

[-CO-C6H4-CO-NH-C6H4-NH-]n

The Carbon, Hydrogen, and Nitrogen would be valuable on the Moon.

So the cushioned bags might only bring molecules in their structure that are wanted on the Moon, but to some extent other objects/materials could be embedded in the "Cushioned Payloads".

The packing materials then could be used in pyrolysis with Lunar dust, if no other use was evident.

And that process along with further processing, should yield various useful chemical results including Methane, Hydrogen, and Oxygen.

One thing that has me curious, is if you completely reduce the Lunar regolith will it conduct electricity?

If so, it might be useable in Magdrive or Neumann Drive, as propellant. So, that would be much simpler than to have to
have to separate out metals like Iron or Aluminum.

That could be a big plus.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Yesterday 21:27:07)

Void · Yesterday 21:36:14

Relating to previous posts. I keep forgetting to mention that pyrolysis with airbag plastics and organic materials does not have to be a one time thing. If you keep getting CO2 and H20 out of the pyrolysis, then you can keep manufacturing Methane to again react with more regolith. And each time should yield Oxygen.

Of course leaks and other losses will eventually "wear it out", but you might just keep getting plastics and organic materials delivered to the Moon to make up for that.

Pyrolysis>Electrolysis>Pyrolysis is one option.
Pyrolysis>Algae>Pyrolysis is another possible path.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Yesterday 21:37:16)

Void · Today 09:10:14

Another video about the Stubby HLS and also the Mini-Starship (Starboat).

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE Quote:

Break it! New ''Stubby" Starship Variant to Fix SpaceX Problem to the Moon Shocked NASA & China...
YouTube
ALPHA TECH

Very nice.

I will add this. I think that a Stubby HLS should be revised so that it can land on the Moon with humans and supplies, support a visit, and then launch back to the capsule for return to Earth of the Humans.

But I want it to have enough left-over propellants then to land back at the base, without humans on board.

As the video says, this extra margin might allow recovery from a sub-optimal play out of circumstances, but if everything is optimal, then you can recover the Stubby HLS to the surface of the Moon.

Later, tipping the ship to a sideways position will be easier for a shorter ship. And more of the volume of the ship will have already been made suitable to habitation. Less resources are needed to make the propellant tanks useful as habitat and laboratory.

But this may come at the cost of a consumed TLI booster/tug, and if I understand possibly the consumption of a Superheavy.

If we think of some way to repeat this process, (Hopefully with less consumed devices), in the event that a Stubby HLS is stranded at some location on the Moon, the extra propellants might allow a crew to survive until a rescue.

Losing the assets TLI booster/Tug, and the Superheavy may be acceptable as you may get more leverage on the Moon itself by recovering the used Stubby HLS to the Moon.

If the Stubby HLS is a repeated process, then it may be that you would Expend a Superheavy that has already launched a number of times. This would prove that it can function, and also would better justify the expenditure to lift the TLI booster/Tug.

As for the TLI Booster/Tug, someday these might be recovered from their high orbits of Earth by some sort of electric rocket tug system. So, it is conceivable that these could be reused.

Some sort of capsule return to Earth from Lunar orbit seems desirable. There are various ways that an Orion or Dragon could be placed into Lunar orbit.

NASA has one. Dr. Zubrin has suggested the use of a Falcon Heavy.

Also, though I think eventually reusable starship could sponsor a method to send a return capsule to Lunar orbit.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Today 09:27:07)

Void · Today 10:14:03

Some further thoughts.....

In the beginning humans will not overnight on the Moon, but robots could. And when a Stubby HLS is about to leave for orbit, it might be unloaded of any and all items possible to expend. Then robots left behind might do things with that material.

A Stubby HLS that lifted its humans to Lunar orbit and then managed to land again, might provide shelter for robots. A tent skirt around the bottom might provide shelter from night cold and day heat. The ship with batteries and solar cells might provided electric power to the robots.

The first line of robots I think of are the sweepers. They would travel about during Lunar day and sweep up as much of the fines as they could. Those might be reacted with plastics and organics with pyrolysis to produce fuels and Oxygen. Fuels might be Methane and Hydrogen. Also reduced regolith possibly can be used in Magdrive and Neumann Drive, if they are made conductive. I do not yet know if that is possible. And then to produce Oxygen.

But the Pyrolysis may produce water and CO2 first, which could more easily be stored until it is time to make it into propellants.

The sweeper robots might somehow use electrostatics to collect the dust. During the process they might be able to extract the expected .5% Iron content by using magnetics.

The base site being reduced of dust, other mobile machinery will suffer less from the results of dust on them.

Many robots will not be humanoid, but some might be.

But I have wondered about Knuckle Walking robots on the Moon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knuckle-walking Image Quote:

Of course in the Moons lower gravity, it could do both Knuckle Walking and bipedal walking.

To protect the hands, it could have gloves like a tin can with a grip inside. It would not walk directly with hands on Lunar Surface.

As for carrying things, it could have various tools like a pouch, or perhaps be able to push a wagon, gripping it with its hands. The wagon walk thing might be the best method of travel for it actually, and knuckle walking less so, and bipedal only used, when useful. It may be that these robots could bound as a method of travel as well, maybe hopping, but being able to end a hop with four hand/legs.

As I understand it walking on the Moon in a balloon suit is a bit like walking on ice. So, methods to stabilize would be desirable.

These would normally not be out on the raw Lunar surface, but on the surfaces previously treated by sweeper robots.

So, humans inhabiting shelters on the surface of the Moon would actuate these robots much more than to go out on the surface in a space suit. And actually, much of the directing of such robots could be from humans on Earth as well.

If we than can bring plastic and Organic materials down to the surface of the Moon at a bargain price as I have suggested in previous posts, then these robots may be able to be assistive in manufacturing propellants.

And of course, if we can lay hands on Lunar resources such as water ice, then all the better. But some bases may be quite far from the polar areas, particularly if it is true that Platnum Family Metals are to be found in about 6500 craters on the Moon.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Today 10:33:56)

Void · Today 11:08:23

Operation of robots during the day night cycle may be troublesome for hot and cold.

The Cart that the Ape Bot pushes around may be able to hose an adjustable umbrella for daytime. The Ape Bot might be able to pivot itself around to be even the heating, sort of a rotisserie behavior.

For nighttime, the cart may hold large batteries that the robot can use to keep warm with. Not being warm-blooded it might deal with the cold like bees do. Muscle activity. And the Ape Bot can wear clothing suitable for very cold conditions.

For its hands the walking grips can be battery heated.

So, maybe the bots can operate in both day and night.

Generally overheating is the greater problem, as long as batteries supply enough energy during the night.

Ending Pending

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#151 2025-09-10 10:48:30

Re: Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other.

#152 2025-09-11 08:25:35

Re: Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other.

#153 2025-09-11 18:50:24

Re: Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other.

#154 2025-09-12 07:25:17

Re: Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other.

#155 2025-09-12 09:21:46

Re: Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other.

#156 2025-09-12 09:51:10

Re: Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other.

#157 2025-09-12 10:35:07

Re: Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other.

#158 2025-09-12 18:15:45

Re: Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other.

#159 2025-09-12 18:54:09

Re: Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other.

#160 2025-09-13 08:32:32

Re: Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other.

#161 2025-09-13 19:35:53

Re: Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other.

#162 Yesterday 05:09:27

Re: Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other.

#163 Yesterday 06:23:19

Re: Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other.

#164 Yesterday 10:49:18

Re: Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other.

#165 Yesterday 21:08:45

Re: Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other.

#166 Yesterday 21:36:14

Re: Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other.

#167 Today 09:10:14

Re: Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other.

#168 Today 10:14:03

Re: Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other.

#169 Today 11:08:23

Re: Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other.

Board footer