Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other.

Void · 2025-09-10 10:48:30

I regard Dr. Johnson as a genuine professional. So, I want to be shy about covering up his posts with my own much less validated opinions. But I want to comment, so this will be an indirect comment to: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 38#p234238

I think that it is important to remember that unlike the Space Shuttle, there are no human passengers or crew on these ships. Therefore quality control does not have to be parinoid in level.

Here is an important quote from Dr. Johnsons post:

“We call it crunch wrap," Gerstenmaier said. "It's like a wrapping paper that goes around each tile, and then... these tiles are mechanically held in place. They're snapped in by a robot.” Using this "crunch wrap" material could seal the spaces between the tiles without using gap fillers.

So, here it seems likely to me that it will be possible to have a robot system in orbit that could inspect and patch a Starship heat shield, before any attempt to enter the atmopshere.

So, until humans begin to ride Starships though atmopshere, we have two things in our favor:
1) A heat sheild failure will not kill any people on board as they will not be on board.
2) It is likely that a Starship with need for repairs to its heat shield can be repaired before the attempt to enter the atmosphere.

This is a vast advantage, I feel. And allows for more risk taking.

And even after humans may ride through the atmosphere on a Starship the vast bulk of Starship flights to and from orbit will not involve humans on board.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-09-10 10:55:12)

Void · 2025-09-11 08:25:35

I will be very happy if the new SpaceX concept for heat shield tiles works out. No cooling fluids needed then, perhaps. Or maybe only special cases.

I think it is a bit like a V-Seal on a Bearing???

https://dicksonbearings.ie/dbdocument/2 … cument.pdf

I am not sure I understand, but I think if it is as I think it is, it may help a lot.

I also mention again that unlike the Shuttle Era, I think that if you are going to have Propellant Depots, and many space stations, it should be possible to have a repair setup which is robotic where heat shield repairs could occur.

This then reduces the chances where heat shield failures will destroy or damage a ship on re-entry to the atmosphere.

So, I think they likely have a good path to solving the heat shield problem.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-09-11 08:34:16)

Void · 2025-09-11 18:50:24

I think I see a possible future for Starship and Starlink, the subpart of SpaceX.

What I am speculating is that not only will they have specialized Starships that eject advanced devices into orbit, but they will probably want a ship that can repair and refurbish the units periodically. Perhaps a Starship with robotic systems on board. Perhaps also having some sort of electric rocket propulsion.

So, instead of dumping them into the atmosphere, they will just repair and refurbish, and refill. And perhaps also may convert the outdated ones into propellants that could be used in Magdrive or Neumann Drive.

Anyway, that occurred to me today.

Ending Pending

Void · Yesterday 07:25:17

I have been thinking of how perhaps with Starship "Slices" of value could be accessed.

The Pez Dispenser thing is rather interesting. Yes, it looks like it can push similar shaped objects into space orbits. So far this are to be Satellites for Starlink.

But it seems sensible that if other companies would make their devices of similar size and shape, those also could be dispensed to orbit.

In a "Slice" called "Microgravity Manufacturing", it might be that raw materials could be in pallets of similar shape and size, and perhaps finished products could also be held in those pallets.

So, then like birds exchanging food by mouth, as a parent and nestling bird might do. A ship might meet up with a station in orbit with similar payload bay door, and by mechanisms exchange pallets.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

But another "Slice" I have my eyes on involves the supposed Platnum Metal deposits on the Moon.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/24 … -the-moon/ Quote:

Trillion dollars' worth of platinum waiting to be mined on the moon
Mining craters on the moon could be more practical than extracting precious metals from asteroids, but it might also introduce new legal difficulties
By James Woodford
2 June 2025

I would argue that legal difficulties are not such a problem. A world where Platnum Family Metals are brought back to Earth is a world where an action will "Benefit All Mankind". It is not as important who does the service as that the service is done. And those who do such a service, deserve a reward for its doing.

But I am not only interested in the Platnum Family Metals, but also the regolith it may be mixed in. That should contain Oxygen, and also Metals and Silica that could be of value.

The Platnum Family Metals seem as though they will be distributed around the Moon, not just at the poles.

While I see this as involving Starship type devices, I think other landers that may be derived from other vendors may have merit. Electric Propulsion and also chemical propulsive devices similar to NOVA (Stoke Space), NEUTRON (Rocket Lab), maybe Terran-R (Relativity Space). Those perhaps upsized to fit into Starships Cargo Compartment?

The Platnum Family Metals may in part justify the operation and the production of Oxygen and other substances would be a byproduct.

The concept of Lithobraking which is apparently considered a joke, has evolved in my mind to perhaps not be a such a joke.

Suppose we made plastic bullets of a large size with bubbles of air inside and dropped them. Could we penetrate them into fine regolith?

We would be allowed to put a protective thin shell of metal around them to help if that were helpful, in fact.

My logic is that if you have to carry the plastic materials all the way to the Lunar Surface to a soft landing, you have to fortify the landing legs of the lander, and have to expend the propellants to land the payload and the legs.

The military makes shells that can penetrate concrete walls.

My expectation is that these "Darts" can be dropped from a reasonable height, either from a craft that will land or one that will not even have landing legs.

While the impact on normal regolith will be uncertain in results, if you sift out fine materials and make a landing receiver from them (Pile of fine dirt), the dart will embed itself into the dirt and will behave in a fluid manner as it penetrates. The dirt parachute is a bit of a joke but not really. The splash will help it slow down the load.

The dirt being cool may allow some materials that may evaporate to condense onto it.

The Plastics, of various types could be useful on the Moon to make structure and to make Fuels. The fuels would be useful to refuel the ships that will lift products including Platnum Family Metals to Lunar Orbits where electric drive propulsion ships may bring the products to Lower Earth Orbits.

Ending Pending

I will point out that terminal velocity on the Moon is not infinite, it is cut short by the shrinkage of time of travel. The faster the dart goes; the sooner it hits the dirt. The sooner it hits the dirt, the less speed it accumulates. The less speed it accumulates the less hot it gets on impact. And the dirt will both cushion and envelope the darts.

I will not claim that building materials will come from the Moon by this economic process, but maybe they will. Maybe we can get space solar power out of this as a byproduct, or maybe we have to have a mass driver.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Yesterday 08:21:20)

Void · Yesterday 09:21:46

A way to visualize it:

So, this might not even have landing legs. If it had enough propellants from some source, it could act like a Sky crane and drop the plastic darts at an appropriate height and location.

Starship is Stainless Steel, so eventually perhaps something lighter might we desired, but for now a Starship propulsion system without Cargo/Cabin compartments, might be obtainable in a relatively short period of time.

Ending Pending

Void · Yesterday 09:51:10

A ship based on Stoke Space or Blue Origin landers, might be good near the poles for Hydro Lox propulsion.

But elsewhere, I would be interested in something based on NEUTRON 2nd Stage, where the landing legs would be made of plastics. The plastic legs would allow it to land, but they would be left behind when the ship took off with a load, to provide future fuel amount other things. The Moon itself could produce Oxygen for the propulsion.

The "Sky Crane Starship Locomotive" Drop system from the previous post could support the fuel and other needs by dropping darts of useful materials.

This may be better for places where Platnum Family Metals may be found at lower latitudes of the Moon.

While the Moon may provide Oxygen, electric propulsion may bring in materials such as Methane and Darts to Lunar Proximity.

These originally may come from Earth but possibly later from another source in the solar system.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Yesterday 09:53:02)

Void · Yesterday 10:35:07

Further thoughts about the dart drop method: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 83#p234283 Quote:

A dart poking into the dust regolith might experience a variation on heating intensity. This would depend on the speed of insertion.

As a solid, even if it shatters that would likely be OK.
As a liquid, chances are it would solidify, on its outer edges, rather quickly, I think.
As a vapor, provided the dust pack above did not rupture, then the vapors might penetrate the regolith and solidify.

The mixture of dust and plastic could be put into a pyrolysis oven, to facilitate the reduction of the dust and the production of H20 and CO2, presuming the plastic be largely of Carbon and Hydrogen in content.

Then various methods could be used to split the CO2 and H20, to produce various products including Oxygen and Fuels.

The reduced dust may be a product worth lifting to Lunar Orbit. The level of reduction might be metered as you may want to extract the remainder Oxygen in Lunar orbit or even in LEO, if it were brought to LEO.

It may be an undesired expense but the dust for the receiver might be cooled and piled up in the Lunar Night Time.

That would require a lot of physical manipulation though.

But dust cooled to a very low temperature and piled up as a receiver, might be better at vaporized plastics.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Yesterday 10:44:22)

Void · Yesterday 18:15:45

I have suggested things like this before: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 86#p234286
Quote:

A way to visualize it:

If you don't want to bother with the Plastic Darts, then you could attach 100 tons of Styrofoam, or Beadboard, or hay bales, to the sides of the ship.

You could operate it in sky crane mode without legs or with legs, but if you try landing of course you have to worry about bumping into the stuff you just dumped overboard. It may be bouncing around or in the ships path to land.

In any case I would recommend robots that sweep up the fines of dust and maybe gravel, both as a resource, and to keep things cleaner. With the dust gone stones of value might be exposed. It could be science value or maybe rocks with Platnum Family Metals in them or maybe Nickle/Iron impactors.

The dust and fines may have .5% reduced Iron in them so that could be separated out as it is collected, I would hope.

A possible progression of process may involve putting the dust and fines into an oven with plastics or hay, and doing pyrolysis on them to the extent desired. You may not want to pull all of the Oxygen out, as if the product is to be shipped to orbit, the Oxygen may be wanted there.

H20 and CO2 will be produced and those can be subject to Oxygen Extraction to produce Hydrogen and CO if desired.
Chemicals can be presented to microbes. It could also be Oxygen and Acetate if you manufactured those. Then you mix that with the already partially reduced dust and fine regolith.

This would give opportunity to mine substances out of the mix using microbes.

These are options, not mandates, other concepts may apply.

But the mix after being mined and the microbes grown, can then perhaps be used to grow Mushrooms. Those could be for food, but things like a leather and other things are possible.

Then the Mushroom bedding could be subjected to pyrolysis again, to recover most of the Carbon and Hydrogen.

The treated Dust and Fines then could be shipped to orbit, having some Oxygen still in it.

Obviously I am hoping that Platnum Family Metals may be of significant value to ship as well.
And if the base were in the area where Lunar Kreep exists, then perhaps some other materials might be recovered.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KREEP
Quote:

KREEP, an acronym built from the letters K (the atomic symbol for potassium), REE (rare-earth elements) and P (for phosphorus), is a geochemical component of some lunar impact breccia and basaltic rocks. Its most significant feature is somewhat enhanced concentration of a majority of so-called "incompatible" elements[1] (those that are concentrated in the liquid phase during magma crystallization) and the heat-producing elements, namely radioactive uranium, thorium, and potassium (due to presence of the radioactive 40K).[2]
Typical composition
The typical composition of KREEP includes about one percent, by mass, of potassium and phosphorus oxides, 20 to 25 parts per million of rubidium, and a concentration of the element lanthanum that is 300 to 350 times the concentrations found in carbonaceous chondrites.[3] Most of potassium, phosphorus and rare-earth elements in KREEP basalts are incorporated in the grains of the phosphate minerals apatite and merrillite.[4]

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Yesterday 18:35:17)

Void · Yesterday 18:54:09

I thought of this today:

For worlds that have small axis tilt.

If all the exposed surfaces could be made mirror with Aluminum coatings, then it might make a reasonable storage for cold.

The inside of the torus on the surface, resembling a amphitheater would be fairly sheltered from radiation from the sun, and quite a lot of GCR. Maybe sheltered from as much as 75% of GCR?

Presumably mostly made from sintered or cast blocks of regolith.

It might have use., but more so for the radiation protection at high latitudes. You might add containers of polar ice over any machines that you would host inside of the amphitheater. This would add more radiation protection.

The structure might somehow be incorporated into a heat engine I would hope.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Yesterday 19:00:47)

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