Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other.

Void · 2025-05-20 21:14:09

A little diversion to Ceres: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA1F9PZ0 Quote:

Frozen ocean world discovered between Mars and Jupiter
Story by Rebecca Shavit • 4h •
7 min read

Quote:

Their study, published in Nature Astronomy, proposes that up to 90% of Ceres' outer layers could be ice. Instead of solid rock, they believe the crust is dirty ice—formed as a slushy, muddy ocean froze over time.

Quote:

Sori explained, “We think that there's lots of water-ice near Ceres' surface, and that it gets gradually less icy as you go deeper and deeper.” He added that earlier models didn’t account for how strong icy mixtures can be. Scientists once thought craters on an ice-rich body would quickly deform, behaving like honey or flowing glaciers.
But when mixed with just a bit of solid rock, ice behaves differently. “Even solids will flow over long timescales,” said Pamerleau. “Ice flows more readily than rock. Craters have deep bowls which produce high stresses that then relax to a lower stress state, resulting in a shallower bowl via solid state flow.” Their models show that these crater shapes can hold steady for billions of years—reshaping what we know about frozen worlds.

So, this might apply to robot tunnels in ice on Mars. After carving the tunnel, then I hope to smear a paste of fibers and mud to freeze on the interior surfaces of the tunnels, and so perhaps to make them more stable.

I suggest that a robot room temperature could be -10 degrees C, which is also a bit tolerable for humans with protective gear.

Prior posts deal with such a thing:

Post #56: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 89#p231589
Quote:

These ice slabs are supposed to be all over Mars, I suppose mid latitudes and upper latitudes more so.
https://www.sciencealert.com/new-resear … ter-liquid Quote:
Vast, Thick Ice Sheets Have Been Found Buried All Over Mars
Space
11 January 2018
ByBen Guarino, Washington Post
Image Quote:

Post #57: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 92#p231592
Quote:

Here we are then:
The cone vault might reject excess heat into the stone under it, for the case of a sand storm, so that heat would keep flowing into the habitat.
The ice tunnel is slightly pressurized, and hosts a tent that protects a gutter that water can flow though as a liquid.
The ice tunnels can reject heat from themselves either to habitat space, or to some of the surface buildings that will double as radiators. You might use air compression and decompression to do a refrigeration.

So, one nice thing about icy worlds such as Mars and Ceres, is that you can get your water supply while digging a habitat expansion.

And it is quite possible to have a house inside of a ice cavity, and pull heat out of the ice cavity and into the house using a heat pump, provided you have the energy to run the heat pump.

However prolonged industrial or other activities might build up heat that you would need to dispose of to the surface, perhaps by boiling water at a low pressure.

Boil more water, need more water, need more water, expand your living spaces.

I am guessing that robots at -10 degrees C may be a good thing because if you have a lower air pressure, then your cooling for the robots is a bit easier.

Ending Pending

It is nice that Ceres may have very thick layers of ice that get muddier as you go down, but it may be that the Dwarf Planet may not have that much Nitrogen. But then again maybe the liquid below was an Ammonia/water mix, then there would be lots of Nitrogen.

And infalls of asteroid materials probably contain Carbon.

Very fortunate, perhaps.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-05-20 21:38:01)

Void · 2025-05-21 13:27:57

This video that is a bit old, has several useful bits of information in it: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … 38a92e6a8c Quote:

Surprise Discoveries from Mars: Volcanic Ice, Weird Chemistry, Lava Tubes and More!
YouTube
Anton Petrov
140.1K views

1) Thin frost on many volcanoes, 1/100th of a mm or the thickness of a human hair. I mention this as it might be possible for a robotic system to vacuum up enough water for human settlements.

2) The polar ice does not seem to flow. This is important because if humans and robots were to make vaults in the ice, unlike many Earth glaciers, the ice will not flow, which is probably a good thing.

3) He indicates that lava tubes are probably not a very good possibility on Mars. I don't really understand why, but it is good to know what is real.

4) Impactors will be some level of concern on Mars, so undersurface may be helpful.

It has been claimed in the previous post materials that the surface materials of Ceres do not flow very much as apparently dirty ice tends not to flow as much as clean ice.

Again, from the prior post and post #57:

Post #57: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 92#p231592
Quote:
Here we are then:
The cone vault might reject excess heat into the stone under it, for the case of a sand storm, so that heat would keep flowing into the habitat.
The ice tunnel is slightly pressurized, and hosts a tent that protects a gutter that water can flow though as a liquid.
The ice tunnels can reject heat from themselves either to habitat space, or to some of the surface buildings that will double as radiators. You might use air compression and decompression to do a refrigeration.

I have suggested a robot room temperature of -10 degrees C which can be temporarily compatible with humans having the proper clothing and other needed life support gear. Probably some sort of battery may work at those temperatures, but in the end, if needed you could have a battery heater. It might be that robots may often hibernate in times of power depravation. (Dust Storm, Polar Winter). Of course, if you had some type of nuclear then solar would not matter as much.

I have an idea about a minimum solar powered life cultivation. This could be tied into shedding waste heat in the ice tunnels as necessary or also the same for tunnels in soft rock.

This claim might be partly trustworthy, I think: https://www.newsweek.com/desert-moss-su … nt-1918887 Quote:

A future civilization on Mars could be accompanied by one very special and resilient little plant.
A type of moss found in the desert—named Syntrichia caninervis—may be able to survive and grow in the harsh environment of Mars, according to a new paper in the journal The Innovation.
This moss can grow in freezing temperatures as cold as -320.8 degrees Fahrenheit, and can survive levels of gamma radiation that would kill most other plants and life forms.
The plant can also withstand incredibly dry conditions, as well as a combination of dryness, heavy radiation, and cold weather in a simulation of the conditions on the Red Planet.
"Our study shows that the environmental resilience of S. caninervis is superior to that of some of highly stress-tolerant microorganisms and tardigrades," the researchers wrote in the paper. "S. caninervis is a promising candidate pioneer plant for colonizing extraterrestrial environments, laying the foundation for building biologically sustainable human habitats beyond Earth."

In the drawing above a surface building could be a very low pressurization greenhouse. Offering some improvement on the raw Martian environment. But it would also be important in water recycling. If you wanted to use water evaporation as a coolant to get rid of excess heat in your underground facilities, then you could do that, and if the greenhouse was not too leaky, then at least in nighttime this would heat the greenhouse a bit, and also condense water out as ice and maybe even liquid, if you had a sufficient pressurization in the greenhouse. This would irrigate any plants you were trying to grow. And with pressurization, daytime thawing might yield, liquid water flows.

There may be other plants capable of enduring such a night freeze and day thaw environment.

So, you could recycle the cooling water to some extent. Some leakage would be expected, so you probably would be extending the tunnels in ice all the time to provide "Make-Up" water.

Here is a query that may have value: "Alpine plants that endure daily freezing"

Here is a general response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Alpine+pl … c0&pc=DCTS

Here is one particular response: https://rarest.org/nature/beautiful-alp … h-climates Quote:

Alpine plants that endure daily freezing include12345:
Yellow Saxifrage
Mountain Harebell
Resilient perennials
Hardy shrubs
Evergreens
Flowers with adapted designs to the harsh, cold climates of high altitudes.

So, if we are going to have our industrial robots in under ice/underground industrial factories, heat is going to build up.
To be rid of it, water can absorb the heat though heat pump methods, and the water could be pumped to a surface greenhouse and vented to boil. While the greenhouses will inevitably leak some water vapor, we will probably be able to replace that water by melting more ice tubes, for robots to work in. So with that waste heat, perhaps preferential vented at night, you then cool the undergrounds and buffer the level of deep cold of the Martian nighttime in a greenhouse.

Of course, using liquid water in the cold environment of Mars, then requires that you have methods to keep pipes from freezing and bursting. In the mines, if the flow of slurry shut down, we used to drain the pipes, so that pipe damage would be prevented.

While Alpine plants are not food crops, I suggest that with some forms of selective breeding and even some GMO, these might be modified to grow happily in such "Radiator/Greenhouses".

In making machines, it is important to ask the question, "Does it serve us or do we serve it?"

In choosing to adapt to Mars and meet it "Halfway", we may be more likely to get service from machines rather than to have to baby the machines, and bear such a burden.

There are Ice bodies near the Equator, which may be suitable. We don't know that yet though.

However, at a higher latitude we have this one the size of Texas and California: https://www.space.com/30502-mars-giant- … y-mro.html Quote:

"It extends down to latitudes of 38 degrees. This would be like someone in Kansas digging in their backyard and finding ice as thick as a 13-story building that covers an area the size of Texas and California combined," Bramson said.

For comparison, the latitude of southern Spain is about 38 degrees. So Mars having a similar tilt solar energy would be similar to that except attenuated by distance from the sun, and also the problem of dust storms.

But there could be sunlight in the winter, worth harvesting. But also the ability to hibernate much of the robot community may be a good option to have in times where solar power is blocked.

So, the tricks learned for Mars, might eventually be applied in part to other worlds believed to be icy such as Ceres, and Callisto.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-05-21 14:21:49)

Void · 2025-05-21 19:58:00

Calliban provided useful information here in answer to a discussion with (th) and myself: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 30#p231830
Quote:

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 4,023
Email
tahanson43206 wrote:
For Void re post with images and GIF of asteroid NEAR probe...
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 94#p231794
That is an impressive composition!
Your recent introduction of the idea of using iron as propellant (reaction mass) might inspire one or two readers to wonder about the potential impact such highly accelerated iron atoms might have when they encounter the hull of a space craft. Your post includes mention of building up layers of material for radiation protection, and provision for arrival of the iron atoms used as reaction mass might seem advisable.
(th)
Short answer: none. Heavy ions have a very short range in matter (microns), due to their interaction with electron shells. Look up the Bethe-Bloch equation. Also, ions will tend to be swept away by solar wind.
One area where this could potentially be a problem, is planetary magnetospheres. Whilst interplanetary space is vast, the Earth's radiation belts start about 1000km above its surface. If they are pumped with ions that are accelerated as Earth's magnetic field lines sweep them, it could do damage to exposed components like solar panels.
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

Thank You Calliban!

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-05-21 20:00:42)

Void · 2025-05-21 20:08:06

Two posts back #77, I mentioned growing alpine plants, in what essentially would be a radiator/water condenser on the surface of Mars.

Obviously, Algae and Cyanobacteria might do very well also for that.

And you could grow mushrooms on the organic materials created.

Ending Pending

Void · Yesterday 13:04:55

I have what I consider to be good news on batteries for Mars: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 77#p231877
Quote:

Sodium Batteries may be better for Mars, due to the cold, than Lithium Batteries.
https://www.elevenenergy.co.uk/post/the … mperatures Quote:
Between -20°C and 55°C
Sodium batteries can operate between -20°C and 55°C, far exceeding the range of lithium batteries. They are suitable for extreme weather conditions and perform well in both low and high temperatures12345.

So, with some protection and perhaps on necessity battery heaters, robots might do pretty good on Mars.

It is being proposed to send some Optimus Robots to Mars, some prior to human arrival.

And I think I have something that they could do. Please take a look and consider:

I do provide for some nuclear power so that the robots can charge up again.

We will however hope to exploit solar power as well that is intermittent.

The soil has been removed from part of an ice slab, and a solar dome put over that. We are hoping to promote the evaporation of ice to create an ice cave. At the same time, we intend to suck the moisture out of the air inside of the dome and port it into a condensation bag with enough pressure to allow for the storage of water ice. This could be relatively clean ice, I hope, as it is a sort of distillation process. Of course we do not want to get dust into it.

While sunshine may promote evaporation, we might also use fans, and a radiative heater to influence where the ice melts.

I suppose that you might go so far as to also include a greenhouse to grow some kind of food, but I want to get the parts in current illustration figured out.

With the ice cave we are starting to provide a radiation shelter, and also some protection from thermal extremes of cold.

When the humans arrive, considerable assets might have been set up before them.

This probably offers improved chances of success/survival.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Yesterday 13:30:17)

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#76 2025-05-20 21:14:09

Re: Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other.

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