Interworld Para Terraforming

Void · 2024-11-21 23:27:46

As I would like to try to get some more sleep, I will do this item to get it out of my head:

The collection is intended to be a stick rotor in the line of thinking of Dr. Johnsons creativity.

But the rotor could be stopped and one end pointed at the sun during fears of a solar storm.

This is a sort of thinking of safety in numbers. You could have four Lunar Starship cabins each facing the sun, and each grabbing some primary radiation, or you could line a bunch of them up, and allow the crew/passengers to redistribute according to the radiation situation.

Granted, it would take resources to downspin the stick for a radiation storm and then to upspin it when the all clear occurs. But I actually am hoping for matching counter rotating sticks so that you could mostly do that by motors and brakes. Even then, I expect that their will be some gyroscopic effects in the change event as the two sticks will not be on the same center of rotation, so you would have to have some thruster activity to compensate for that.

During a nospin situation, I am hoping that plumbing rooms can have a very mild amount of spin gravity to deal with body functions that are not desirable as a group activity.

I anticipate that the whole set of structure will be propelled by something like Magdrive or Neumann Drive, and that an appropriate power supply will power everything.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-11-21 23:34:53)

Void · 2024-11-22 12:52:46

OK, so I have tried to suggest a way(s) to work with tiny worlds like Phobos to perhaps gain economical technical methods for benefit to the interests of Humans.

The space industry is seeking to find ways to make delivery to LEO more economical.

I want to cast an eye onto the Moon again now. I am not going to be sure that I can come up with a worthy amount of improvement for access to the Moon, but I will at least try.

My mother had the nickname "Oppizika", as in conversations she might argue a different line of thinking than what was being presented. Perhaps I have inherited a bit of that.

To a degree, I am going to advocate for access to the lower latitudes of the Moon rather than the poles. I think that the poles should be accessed as well, but I am attracted to the idea that the equator is more accessible, and it may be a bit easier to lift resources from the Equator than the poles, if propulsion methods are similar.

I also want to try to find more advantage for the use of Metha-Lox engines in accessing the Moon.

I am imagining a future where the propulsion of a Starship from LEO to Moon orbit, will primarily be done with metal propellants, to conserve liquid propellants, and in hopes of efficiency.

Aluminum and Iron are among the more desired materials. Having Carbon some Iron products would be possible.

What I am hoping for is the manufacture of solid rockets from Metals, and to be mostly filled with a paste of LOX and Aluminum powder. But I might think these would preform better if small amounts of organic materials such as plastics perhaps could be included. This would provide Hydrogen and Carbon compounds that I think would improve the performance.

The greater desire may be to transport as little Methane and Oxygen from LEO to the Moon orbits as is practical.

I am currently aiming at Plastics and Pyrolysis. It is my understanding that plastics subjected to Pyrolysis can produce Methane. Here is one article about it: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 7021004071
Quote:

Applied Pyrolysis
Volume 161, January 2022, 105421
Journal of Analytical and Applied Pyrolysis
From plastics to methane and carbon spheres: The evolution of pyrolysis products during pyrolysis under autogenic atmosphere
Author links open overlay panel
Xiao-Li Zhou a b
, Pin-Jing He a c,
Wei Peng a c
,
Fan Lü a c
,
Li-Ming Shao a c
, Hua Zhang a c

So, I have already suggested that Moon ships could have one time landing legs made of Plastics, maybe wood.

I have also previously suggested dropping cargo from a ship prior to the landing. Of course, if it is an organic material, it cannot gain so much speed and momentum as to completely vaporize. However, melting might be acceptable, as if it were in the Lunar night it should cool to a solid rapidly.

I am going to suggest something that at least has a bit of humor in it, at least for me. I like Styrofoam beads packed big plastic bags. And I like an inclined impact for them. These could be attached to the outside of a Moonship and released over an inclined crater rim. If the materials melt, then some volatiles will be lost to the vacuum of the Moon.

I don't know what to inflate the beads with. If it is Lunar Oxygen, then perhaps they will ignite. I don't want that. Maybe CO2 would be good. I anticipate these beads being created in a space station, so that a Starship could lift Polystyrene to orbit in a condensed form.

And so, then working with Lunar Starship, Methane created from dropped Styrofoam, might refuel the ship. But Oxygen could also be extracted from the Moons regolith to also fill the Starship.

I have to wonder if you mixed Polystyrene with fine regolith and subjected it to Pyrolysis, perhaps from sunlight, if you could extract the Oxygen from the regolith indirectly by creating CO2 and H20, and reduced regolith?

The organics then could be treated by various potential means to create Methane and Oxygen. The means could involve algae or be more like that intended for Mars.

This may do a shortcut, where you do not have to engage as much electrolysis to extract Oxygen from regolith. There will inevitably be losses, but actually if you kept growing Algae, you could keep subjecting it to regolith pyrolysis. And then grow Algae, in a loop.

If you grow Algae, you might grow mushrooms, so then a food. Some algae might be consumable as well.

Pause.........Coffee..............

The use of Metalysis on the reduced regolith, might reduce the amount of energy needed to extract substances desired. I am not sure. These rockets then could be attached to a Moonship like the Starship, and would hopefully lift their own weight, and it could be hoped they would do better than that.

Depending on needs the Moonship would only be provided just a bit more than needs to low orbit, to assist the assembly to such a low orbit. The solids would not be ejected. An orbital tug would come and get the assembly and bring it to an orbital factory. The burned out solids would be treated as a resource to provide metal propellants for the tug and other spacecraft. They might run on Magdrive or Neumann Drive.

As the orbital factory would also be delivered Polystyrene, it could use Pyrolysis to manufacture Methane for the Starship to return to the Moon, without the solids and with bags of Styrofoam to drop.

An interesting cargo, that Starship could also bring up to the orbital factory might be Iron Oxide. This then can provide Oxygen and Iron. Perhaps other Oxides as well could be carried to orbit by the Moonships.

So, I am hoping that this process could be a path to getting Oxygen and Metals from the Moon, at a competive cost.

Ending Pending

The solids would have power but not be able to steer and also might not be able to circularize their orbits. But the Moonship would be able to do that for them.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-11-22 13:49:54)

Void · 2024-11-22 15:54:12

So, a modified Starship might become a Moonship. If it is to be filled both at the orbital station and on the surface of the Moon, then its tanks can be downsized quite a bit, I anticipate. And I think the engines could be downscaled as well.

So, less dry mass. I suppose to get these to orbit, you might pancake 2 or 3 of these, where the propellants would have routing to feed the raptors on the bottom one. Then when in LEO, you would unstack them, and change out the engines.
I am betting you don't need so many raptors, and also you might buy smaller engines from a different rocket vendor.

These are probably going to land on a landing pad, so you could use the tail engines to land.

Pause...............

I think this could be better than a mass driver system, at least at the beginning.

I think that a mass driver could be further in the future, if need for great masses of materials become apparent.

In reality with the ship system, you could simply make more ships to bring the mass flow up.

So, a Moonship might have tanks 1/2 to 1/3 the size of the current Lunar Starship. So, it would not be as tippy.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-11-22 16:13:52)

Void · 2024-11-22 20:53:32

Of course there are several video's here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRMkYy … feDtrQgcTA
Quote:

AnthroFuturism
@Anthrofuturism
•
20.2K subscribers
•
37 videos
Lunar Development & Futurism
...more
patreon.com/LunarDevelopment
and 2 more links
Subscribe
Join

But this one deals with power cables on the Moon, a power grid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eV4jk9cIHbo Quote:

Electric Power Transmission Cables On The Moon
AnthroFuturism
20.2K subscribers

It is good to know what has been figured out?

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-11-22 20:56:53)

Void · 2024-11-23 13:22:44

This is a return to the idea of impacting a foamy solid Hydrocarbon onto the surface of the Moon at a rather high impact speed. I have previously said Styrofoam, but that is only one such possible material.

And I don't know the utility of this possible activity at this time.

The notion of value for such an activity, is that a landing ship, will not have to bear the weight of the delivered materials in its landing frame, and there is also some potential to conserve propellants while landing. And alternate delivery method would have a ship that does not land at all and so does not need landing legs.

As the Moon is currently without a atmosphere to encounter as significant, terminal velocity is the initial drop velocity, and an accumulation of additional velocity change due to attitude and so then drop time. The faster the load drops, the less time it has to accumulate more velocity before impacting a surface.

I believe that that is different than for the Earth, where your velocity will accumulate, until you cannot accelerate more than the wind resistance is slowing you down.

Imagining packing beads, relatively cool at first, they may not outgas volatiles too fast, I am speculating. In this guess, I am imagining them in some kind of protective chamber or bag anyway.

The impact speed will influence the amount of heating from impact.

Slower speeds would maintain a mostly solid structure is maintained, but some outgassing might be promoted.

Medium speeds, may cause a conversion to a liquid, and so then outgassing would be promoted. But if the surface of the Moon is cold as in the nighttime, or in a shadowed crater, contact with a cold surface may transition it back to a more solid state, and so then minimize the outgassing.

I an impact happened at a high speed, then strong melting and vaporization are likely, and if extremely high then chemical alterations of the material are likely.

But I am wondering if in the high-speed impact if instead of an explosion, we might see a forced condensation process from inertia? While the heating from impact will cause expansion of the materials, the original inertia may have a compressive feature to it. If the materials it is impacting into are cold this would assist the condensation process. The materials being impacted into, would matter as well. Fine dust, Gravel, P-Rock, bigger rocks? Also the precooling of the materials might be altered by the porosity of it. I expect that porous materials may cool faster, and deeper.

Also, if we can fluff the impact site with good timing this may assist a mixing of the impactor materials and the regolith used.

Fluffing might be attempted with a flow of a gas through the regolith, probably Oxygen. This of course might deteriorate the hydrocarbons with Oxidation, but I think the event would be very short lived.

We might instead, use an explosive underneath the regolith to fluff the prepared regolith. This would allow the impacting materials to "Splash Down" in a fluidized material.

Inclined impacts will also be different than blunt impacts.

Anyway, this may be a path to something useful some day. I think particularly If Hydrocarbon materials may come from the outer asteroids in bulk.

But maybe early on as well, if there are minerals to mine in a location and the Hydrogen and Carbon are needed to process them.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-11-23 13:44:18)

Void · 2024-11-23 21:24:30

I know that many people would have trouble believing that large quantities of plastics or organic matter could be exported from the asteroid belt to our Moon, but that is perhaps only true for our current circumstances.

Given perches in the large asteroids at the ~3.0 AU locations, and virtually infinite energy from mirrors and solar, and nearly infinite labor available, then I say that it may become possible to send large amounts of materials from the asteroid belt to our Moon.

I have a notion of a mining ring to put around small worlds. I have speculated about a ring for our Moon, where it might be possible to beam matter to it using Magdrive or Neumann Drive.

Don't get confused though, I am not talking about a ring world with an atmosphere and walls to hold it in.

Even for the major asteroids this approaches unbelief, but I will have a look at it anyway.

This ring would only spin just a little faster than its orbit mandates, a circular orbit, around a Major Asteroid.

10 Hygea might be considered: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_Hygiea
Image Quote: Quote:

10 Hygiea is a major asteroid located in the main asteroid belt. With a mean diameter of between 425 and 440 km and a mass estimated to be 3% of the total mass of the belt,[11] it is the fourth-largest asteroid in the Solar System by both volume and mass, and is the largest of the C-type asteroids (dark asteroids with a carbonaceous surface) in classifications that use G type for 1 Ceres. It is very close to spherical, apparently because it had re-accreted after the disruptive impact that produced the large Hygiean family of asteroids.

So, the inside of the ring would experience just a tiny bit of synthetic gravity.

I would like to see a set of methods to launch materials from the asteroid to the inside of the ring.

Magdrive and/or Neumann Drive might do this for many elements.

But a Mass Driver that would shoot icy bullets with Magnetite embedded in them could transfer ices and Magnetite to the ring. If the level of force is correct, then upon impact the bullets may melt just a bit and so stick to the ice already on the ring. The small amount of synthetic gravity will help.

Mass Drivers of another kind might drive the ring, by pushing cargo launches inward into the solar system, perhaps towards the Moon. If necessary, it may be that some use of photon sailing, or magnetic sailing could also be incorporated into the ring. While the ring would not itself be a habitat, it may have habitats for humans and robots attached to it. Solar power plants in orbit of 10 Hygea may beam power to the ring as well.

You might be able to impose a magnetic field around 10 Hygea, and use 10 Hygea as a "Stator" of a motor, and then make the ring as the "Rotor" of the motor.

I have suggested mass drivers to give a "Kick" to a cargo launch, but you also could make lots of chemical propellants to give the kick instead.

Preferred materials to deliver to the Moon might be Carbon, Hydrogen, and Nitrogen. But to further propel these loads after the "Kick" whatever kind you used, you might use Magdrive and/or Neumann Drive to get into the Earth/Moon Hill Sphere.

So, in reality, if you have a distribution of resources suitable for it with a very large magnitude of size, then this sort of thing could be possible in the future.

I would like to see a trade loop, Earth/Moon>Mars/Phobos/Deimos>~3.0 AU asteroids>Terrestrials + Luna + crossing asteroids>Venus>Outward Again with Nitrogen and Carbon.

This could be a goal, but eventually it would become Solar System wide.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-11-23 21:45:46)

Void · 2024-11-24 13:30:04

In thinking about synthetic gravity habitats, I think I have something a bit better to offer now.

We have cylinders, torus, baton, and capsule-baton.

Previously, I have tried to get a unified device which could support both microgravity industry, and heath methods for humans. Those could work but this thing might be better.

I plan to include cylinder and capsule-baton method to produce that situation.

Here we are:

A cylinder with capsule batons depending from it. The grey area is a de-spin platform inside the cylinder, that may provide some level of microgravity.

So, to get the parts for the cylinder and the capsules you might cut up a starship of the Lunar version.

In order to expand the "Capsules-Baton" we may connect more capsules in serial fashion such as this:

But I intend these things to be embedded in a solar power station perhaps that can power both the device, and might export power to somewhere else.

Humans in the device could travel rather freely between microgravity manufacture on the de-spin platform and the synthetic gravity offered elsewhere.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-11-24 13:52:57)

Void · 2024-11-24 17:39:48

For the habitats, it is curious that all the types can be blended together by using gradual deviations.

We have cylinders, torus, baton, and capsule-baton.

For the typical Von Braun space station: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotating_ … ce_station
Image Quote:

The hub is the cylinder. The spokes are the batons. And if you used capsules to expand the spokes/batons, then you could join them with a ring.

But the shapes of the ships that come up from the Earth, do not favor the ring. But as I said you could do capsules together and in Mutiple, and side by side, and join their bottoms with strait pieces of tube. And so make a ring or rings of capsules.

Current thinking seems to be that money to be made in space could include 1) Microgravity Factories 2) Energy Export to Earth 3) Tourism and Research Money. And then as those may involve people then 4) Farming in space will be important.

So, generally people have seem to think that functions 1, 2, and 3 may be separated structures, I think that it could be useful to join all of them together.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-11-24 17:51:19)

Void · 2024-11-25 10:10:09

From post #58:

Here we are:
A cylinder with capsule batons depending from it. The grey area is a de-spin platform inside the cylinder, that may provide some level of microgravity.

So, for now Starship is 9 meters in diameter. There is some talk about a larger version of 18 meters in diameter.

So, to have microgravity in the Axis-Cylinder, you need a shelter inside that has motors that counter spin that shelter to get down to microgravity.

My objective is to have a means of humans and perhaps robots moving from the spin cylinder to the counter spin platform without injury or death, and likely not using an airlock. The spin platform could do a Spin/Stop modes for human or robot transfer, but a steady spin transfer might be preferred.

Obviously if you eliminated the desire for spin gravity then you would not do this combination method. But I want to attach Batons of Capsules, where synthetic gravity would be available in various magnitudes.

In order to have the Axis cylinder spin at a tolerable slow rate, then you either have to reduce the amount of synthetic gravity that you want in the Batons of Capsules, or you have to extend the length of the Batons of Capsules.

A spin-lock might allow more permissions for differential speed between the Axis-Cylinder, and the Microgravity-Shelter(s).

Pause for a drawing...................

So, the Spin-Lock would alternately match the spin of the pressurization cylinder of the hub of the device, the Axis-Cylinder. Special method will be needed to avoid pinching passengers traveling in an out of the spin lock.

But the Spin-Lock is intended to allow travel between the microgravity platforms, and the Batons of Capsules.

Actually the differential speed of spin may not be that large between the hub shell (Axis-Cylinder) and the Microgravity platforms. But the microgravity platforms may be cylinders of a smaller size anyway to avoid strong air flows.

I intend that the Axis Bearings will be attached to a large platform such as a solar power platform.

That and the use of the Pseudo-Disk provide by the Baton of Capsules will, I hope handle gyroscopic flipping problems.

There could be more than one of these on a platform, and (th) has mentioned the idea that these might also be used as gyroscopes for aiming the platform.

I have not shown how people and materials may pass out of and into this device. I think various ways could be possible at the hub, and if necessary the whole device could be "De-Spined".

But I hope then that platforms could host: " 1) Microgravity Factories 2) Energy Export to Earth 3) Tourism and Research Money. And then as those may involve people then 4) Farming in space will be important."

And the hope would be that these would be productive and profitable.

Ending Pending

Eventually it may be possible to build structures from processed materials in orbit, but for now, I think that building rockets that can be converted, building them on the surface of Earth may be best.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-11-25 10:49:48)

Void · 2024-11-25 11:13:05

I have nothing against inflatables. They would be able to make a major contribution on a solar platform.

You might be able to attach them to the hubs of the assembly, or even the batons.

If you used magnetic bearings, then you could attach them to the ends of the hub cylinder. You might also want a backup of wheels as bearings with a fail safe braking system if your magnetic bearings should drop power.

The magnetic bearings might be like the methods used on Lev Trains.

Ending Pending

Void · 2024-11-26 14:59:07

Calliban initiated a topic which I am interested in expanding on here: "Index» Science, Technology, and Astronomy» Artificial Starch Production" https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10946

Quote:

1Post reply
#1Yesterday 11:14:11
Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,796
Email
This youtube video discusses recent Chinese research on the production of artificial starch using hydrogen and carbon dioxide.
https://youtu.be/e2SsheLN1t8?si=Csf-khyGAqfMP668
Chinese researchers calculated a realistic efficiency of producing starch in this way. They assume:
Hydrogen electrolysis: 85%
Hydrogen to methanol: 85%
Methanol to starch: 61%
Additionally, the heat and pressure needed for the reaction steps consume energy, which amount to another 32% energy loss (68% efficiency).
Multiplying all of the efficiencies together, we end up with a 30% conversion efficiency of electricity into starch. Starch is the main ingredient in bread and pasta, which are staples of western diet. The average person needs 2200 Calories to maintain a stable weight. That equates to 2.56kWh. If electricity is converted into starch at 30% efficiency, then 8.53kWh would produce enough starch to feed one person for 1 day. That is equivalent to a constant power of 355W to feed 1 person. At an electricity cost of $0.1/kWh, this would cost $0.85/day. Or to put it another way, a single 1200MWe nuclear reactor with a 90% capacity factor, could feed over 3 million people.
In reality, no one would obtain all of their calories needs from pure starch, because aside from its calorie content it is nutritionally empty. But as an additive to processed food like bread or pasta, this could meet a sizable portion of human calorie needs. This process, assuming it can be scaled to industrial levels of production, has special significance for Mars colonisation. On Mars, it will be impractical to feed colonists with plants grown in acres of pressurised and heated greenhouses. Artificial lighting in vertical farms is also impractical, as it would consume enormous power. This is due to the combination of inefficiency in the light source and low efficiency of photosynthesis.
To produce food affordably, we must side step natural photosynthesis and find methods of efficiently converting primary energy into food. Artificial starch production allows a substantial ingredient of human food to be produced in a compact facility using solar or nuclear energy. We have previously discussed artificial photosynthesis, by growing plants, yeast and fungi in acetic acid salt solutions. By combining both processes, we will ultimately be able to convert electricity into food with high efficiency in compact volumes.
In previous discussions, the power requirements of a Martian colony were found to be extreme: 10s - 100s kW/capita. This was largely driven by the need to grow food using a combination of natural and artificial light under natural photosynthesis. Thermal losses from growing areas also required substantial heating. If artificial photosynthesis and starch production are instead used, then the food, heat and domestic electricity needed by Musk's proposed 1 million person colony could be comfortably powered by a single 1200MWe nuclear reactor or 4 SMRs with a power output of 300MWe each. The BWRX-300 should be operational by 2030. Something like this would be ideal to support Musk's proposed city.
https://www.gevernova.com/nuclear/carbo … ar-reactor
Some 20 tonnes of 5% enriched uranium are needed to produce 1GW-year of electricity. So a single 24 tonne annual shipment of low enriched uranium could replace the need to ship 100,000 tonnes of food from Earth every year.
Last edited by Calliban (Yesterday 11:22:38)
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

While I agree that that pathway starting with nuclear energy is very interesting.

But I am very interested in using extreme Cyanobacteria, and Pyrolysis to create chemicals like Methane, and Oxygen, and then creating the Methanol from that, and then to do the rest of the chain.

A while back, there was research on growing cyanobacteria, in a beneficiated Martian environment:
https://phys.org/news/2021-02-biotech-r … ipeline%20 Quote:

February 16, 2021
Biotech fit for the Red Planet: New method for growing cyanobacteria under Mars-like conditions
by Frontiers

https://www.sciencealert.com/cyanobacte … fe-support Quote:

Blue-Green Algae Could Help Keep Humans Alive on Mars, Experiment Suggests
Space
16 February 2021
ByMichelle Starr

The existing Martian environment can be in some ways said to be 1/200th as good as Earth to support life, which is not very good.

In their first experiments they made a simulation with 1/10th the pressure of Earth, and with enhanced content of Nitrogen. And Cyanobacteria grew well.

I seem to recall that they were or were going to do an experiment at 1/20th Earth pressure.

So, I am more interested in doing this in orbits, such as Earth/Moon, Mars/Phobos/Deimos, and ~3.0 AU major asteroids.

This could be a situation where a "Bioforming" process could be implemented: https://terraforming.fandom.com/wiki/Bioforming
Quote:

Bioforming
Sign in to edit
Bioforming is a concept related to terraforming. Bioforming aims to transform life to improve its capability to survive, including on another celestial body (planet or moon), or other places. Life has evolved to be very well adapted. With genetic engineering and synthetic biology technologies continuing to push the boundaries of what is possible, bioforming also stems from the idea that it is likely to be easier to change life with such technologies. The intermediary concept between terraforming and bioforming is terrabioforming.

Contents
1 Microbial Life
1.1 Extremophiles
1.2 Microbes in Space
1.3 Synthetic Biology and Genetic Engineering
1.3.1 Future Capabilities
2 Humans
2.1 Current
2.2 Future
2.3 Limits
3 Plants
3.1 Adaptations of current plants
3.2 Future
3.3 Limitations
4 Conclusion

The thing is in LEO space stations, they could start making small farms of the stuff, and give it a minimum productive environment. MPE Not to minimize productivity, but to find the minimum needs satisfaction for the Cyanobacteria to produce abundance.

Rather than to directly genetically engineer these cyanobacteria lines, they would be exposed to such an environment, including some harsh conditions like radiation, to hope they will evolve adaptations. This may work because of the very short life cycle of the microbes.

So then, you would attempt to move them closer and closer to a Mars like condition, until productivity would fall off, and then back up to recover the productivity.

I have already speculated that you could use pyrolysis to produce Methane from the cyanobacteria "Crops". But of course as mention in the articles other pathways are possible.

One thing you might also do is grow mushrooms on the detritus of a processing of cyanobacteria. And I think I read that Mushrooms could be 1/3 of a diet.

Actually I think that in an orbital habitat where you simulated the Arctic ocean, you could have growth at current Martian pressures of ~5.5 mbar. This would be because you had salt in the water and the water would be at -2 degC.

Actually photosynthesis might be possible down to -20 degC.

But being reasonable, I don't think such an extreme is needed.

https://endmemo.com/chem/vaporpressurewater.php
So, -2 degC then 5.2256 mbar
So, -20 degC then 1.2230 mbar (Lots of salt)

I don't think it needs to be pushed that far, any enclosure on Mars or in orbit could likely hold necessary pressure, and also hold in water vapor.

The idea though is to minimize the resources needed to grow lots of the stuff.

And tolerance to radiation would be a plus to also minimize protections required, and to accelerate induced evolution.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-11-26 15:49:35)

Void · 2024-11-27 11:33:05

I have a range of things on my mind.

Can we create a mechanical mega bacteria like robot in space?

Can we turn the radiation belts of some planets into power supplies?

OK, I don't want to over define this:

I feel that the scale of this is such that you could have spin gravity habitats within its "Cell Walls" or the main Vacuole.

It may visit Ceres and pick up some organics, or might drift around the asteroid belt(s), and "Eat" very small asteroids for conversion to a resource.

The other thing I am thinking about is the use of radiation belts for Mercury, Earth, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune as power supplies.

I suppose we could start with a device like the Mega Mechanical Pseudo Bacteriuria, (Escaped from a Star Trek episode).

Suppose we put it into an elliptical orbit that in perihelion dips deep into a radiation belt, and at aphelion, rises to locations where the radiation may allow transit of spacecraft into and out of the machine.

This could power an ecosystem, I feel, and may also involve transmutation of substances. I am not so sure I want to deal with the transmutation, but it will likely be present. If I understand the situation, the main activity of the radiation belts would be the impact of Protons which would cause secondary radiation and perhaps the production of Neutrons and weaker Protons.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-21218-z
Quote:

Article
Open access
Published: 26 February 2021
The contribution of water radiolysis to marine sedimentary life
Justine F. Sauvage, Ashton Flinders, Arthur J. Spivack, Robert Pockalny, Ann G. Dunlea, Chloe H. Anderson, David C. Smith, Richard W. Murray & Steven D’Hondt
Nature Communications volume 12, Article number: 1297 (2021) Cite this article
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https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-21218-z
Quote:

Article
Open access
Published: 26 February 2021
The contribution of water radiolysis to marine sedimentary life
Justine F. Sauvage, Ashton Flinders, Arthur J. Spivack, Robert Pockalny, Ann G. Dunlea, Chloe H. Anderson, David C. Smith, Richard W. Murray & Steven D’Hondt
Nature Communications volume 12, Article number: 1297 (2021) Cite this article
9939 Accesses
26 Citations
222 Altmetric
Metrics

So, transmutation is more likely near the surface of the device, and radiolysis chemistry may even then occur further in as well.

Could we make a honeycomb "Skin" containing liquids of bonded Deuterium, perhaps heavy water? So, would this create fusion products like Tritium and Helium 3? I don't expect a proper fusion reaction producing energy, but maybe transmutation.

So, then if we handle the primary radiation with this layer, then can we create a simulation of ocean sediments to handle and use the secondary radiation, to produce organic radiolysis?

We might be talking mostly about robots inhabiting these devices, per the radiation risk, but maybe humans could be deep inside.

Can we use radiation to run a biological system?

Anyway if the radiation concept is not so good, then still I like the Mecha Pseudo Bacteria in the asteroid belt.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-11-29 07:47:46)

Void · 2024-11-27 19:08:55

OK, maybe Lithium would be better than heavy water as the primary shield, as I believe that it can produce Tritium, and then that decays into Helium3 over time.

Ending Pending

Void · 2024-11-29 07:22:37

Keep in mind that I don't have much confidence I understand much about things nuclear.

My understanding is that in the early solar system Aluminum-26 was accumulated, and then accreted into objects like Vesta. Ceres formed later it is supposed and did not get so much Aluminum-26.

The Aluminum-26 decayed to Magnesium-26 in a few million years, but melted the interior of Vesta, likely driving off a lot of water and other volatiles.

The above is what I have read.

How Aluminum-26 formed was originally said to be Nova activities.
'
Later I read that infalling materials in an accretion disk could reach high enough speeds to generate it. (Not sure that is true).

The latest I have read is that cosmic rays bombarding Silicon can convert it to Aluminum-26.

Here is an article about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium-26

I don't know if the magnetic fields of some planets have a radiation characteristic capable to transmute Silicon into Aluminum-26. But the Aluminum-26 path might give indication of some other path that might work.

So, this could be a sort of one-time use battery that can be charged by the intense sections of a radiation belt. I have the Earth's Van Allen Belts, and the planet Jupiter most in mind, but maybe if there is a planet out beyond Neptune it will have a significant magnetic field. If it is beyond the solar wind, then it may have a continual infall of Aluminum-26.

It seems that it may be possible that Mars has been charged with Alumium-26 in our time and most of it's history.

This leads me to wonder if a nuclear reactor, could be created that could support a biological ecosystem. It would need a Transmutation skin, and inside of that a layer of simulation of wet ocean sediments, where Radiolysis could occur. But I think it would be desired to avoid transmutation of the sediments. We would not want Tritium to be formed in such an artificial biosphere.

If the radiation belts of Jupiter could make Aluminum-26, perhaps there is a way that it can get into the ocean of Europa, if there is one.

Here is a claim that Supernova export radioactive substances to the Earth even now: https://phys.org/news/2023-02-radioacti … rnova.html Quote:

Home
Astronomy & Space
Planetary Sciences
February 20, 2023
Editors' notes
Radioactive isotopes reach Earth by surfing supernova blast waves, scientists discover
by University of Hertfordshire

I think it could be possible that microbes have utilized this energy source and may have migrated to Earth on a produced "Mudball".

I think that it is possible that small icy worlds that are beyond the Heliopause, may have a continuing influx of Radioactive Isotopes if they had oceans and a convection of ice, it may be possible that some may indeed maintain a condition suitable for life. Perhaps some Rogue Planets do.

For our radiation belt reactor then we want a biological reactor that runs on secondary radiation from a outer shell that is actively transmutative.

Perhaps having a form like this:

See prior posts #62 and #63.

Last edited by Void (2024-11-29 07:49:32)

Void · 2024-11-29 08:00:31

OK, moving on from the last post about radiation supported biospheres:

I think it would be possible to surround tiny worlds with a spherical envelope. For major planets though, it would not be practical due to gravity.

So, I have another notion which might be tried first on objects of proper size in the Asteroid Belt. I am thinking perhaps of the larger objects at approximately the 3.0 AU location, which could include Ceres and 10 Hygea.

So, imagine making a toroid structure that "Orbits" and occults a small world.

You might put all or parts of that world into a permanent deep freeze, while collecting much more sunlight than would have impinged on that world.

If you then surrounded that with a properly leaky magnetic field, and injected Oxygen into that magnetic field, you might hope to see the Oxygen bond into OH and H20 in that magnetic field. At the poles of this magnet could be the small world that has been deep chilled. It may be possible that OH and H20 may condense on that world.

We might have space elevators involved, but I also favor, magnetite dust embedded in ice bullets where you could shoot them from the little world to the inner rim of the toroid, and so then collect that material into the device. You could include other non-magnetic dust materials.

You could have a slot in the inside of the toroid that the bullets could shoot into. You could attempt to hold the materials at the target by melt freeze stickiness, centrifugal force, and perhaps magnetism.

OK, then a target slot all around the inner surface of the Toroid:

Some small worlds may be of proper size to do this some may not be.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-11-29 08:31:21)

Void · 2024-11-29 13:38:58

So, I am copying this post to here as I think that recent work here could fit in with the production of wood.

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 71#p228171
Quote:

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,839
Email
Would you use wood?
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … 72d9&ei=14
Quote:
Researchers launch world's first solid-wood spacecraft — here's how it could solve a major issue with space travel
Story by Kristen Lawrence • 3h • 3 min read
The people who thought of this were not short cut mind and dogma loving, I expect.
Ending Pending smile
Last edited by Void (Today 09:15:11)
End smile

I think that for use in space wood might be given special treatments, such as impregnated with some substance, or given a coating of some kind. Perhaps sheathed in metal, as examples.

Obviously just now wood has to come from the Earth, and generally be grown in trees. Substitutes are possible, using weeds glued together for instance.

It is possible that wood may be grown in a lab, I suppose.

Various places may allow the growing of wood, if the location has the chemicals, and sufficient sunlight or perhaps artificial lights.

Vernus, Mars, and maybe even the Moon have those options.

But I am looking at the asteroid belt now.

Post #65 has structures similar to what I want. From that post this:

But we can replace the little dwarf world inside with a flat metal plating.

Here is a side view attempt at such a superstructure:
This would not be pressurized to any large degree.

The Superstructure does not need to rotate so can be "Tidal Locked" to the sun.

Giant concentrating mirrors could be attached to the sunward side, and various things such as habitats could be attached inside and outside to it.

The magnetic field does not have to run all the time, but when it did, it may help the radiation environment. However I mostly want to try to trap the solar wind. If Oxygen were injected to the magnetic field then it is possible that OH and H20 would be developed and conveyed to the cold surfaces inside the toroid shape, to condense.

There are various things that could be tried with the Cold Metal Plate(s).

Capacitive films may build up from molecules trapped by the magnetic field, and may stick to the outside of the plates.

Some pumping process with very small pumps may extract that. Eductor devices or Piezoelectric pumps, might work.

Alternately you might spread a part magnetic dust on them and include Carbon to the dust to hope to Adsorb the molecules. In that case you would have to process the dust from time to time to get the molecules out.

Eductor: https://shipfever.com/what-is-an-eductor/

You can make a Piezoelectric Device resonate if you apply electric energy. This could act as a motor for a very tiny pump.

My hope is to get Hydrogen from the solar wind, as OH or H20, I also want to collect Helium. But also, I want to collect volatiles which may escape from the Superstructure and attached devices.

So, this could orbit a world, like Mars, 10 Hygea, or Ceres, or it could be in a Solar Orbit, perhaps in the Asteroid Belt.

It could consume small asteroids, and also either visit icy asteroids or Carbonaceous Asteroids, or be supplied from them.

So, as all of our space structures will leak air and other things, I hope to recover most of those, and even get Hydrogen and Helium from the solar wind.

The Superstructure may host greenhouses where trees could be grown, to provide wood to the solar system.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-11-29 14:18:04)

Void · 2024-12-01 07:50:30

Well I rarely get feedback, so if I have errors, they may not be being addressed.

So, I will just have to go ahead with what I think I know, and may suppose based on those things that I think I know.

Small worlds way out there may have oceans, it seems: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmzFvZ31ih4
Quote:

Nobody Expected JWST To Find Signs of Ongoing Eruptions on Makemake
Anton Petrov
1.37M subscribers

It is hard to understand what the energy source could be to maintain such oceans. I will suggest that perhaps the universe, continually or intermittently salts this world with new radioactive isotopes that might be created by Supernova, and perhaps cosmic dust being irradiated by Cosmic Rays.

If the Heliosphere's solar wind flows would not block this as much "Out There", then this process may be greater than for the Earth.

If the world had convection in its ice, then the materials may fall to the bottom of an ocean and create the heat, with the ice shell insulating the ocean.

I am getting a bit peeved, just now as I am trying to recall an article(s) that indicated that our solar system may have a Lagrange point with some part of the galaxy. As I query, I am getting old dogma.

Oh well, anyway this article suggests that our solar system may be almost 2 lightyears in radius, I think, I suppose in places yes and no: https://www.wonderopolis.org/wonder/how … lar-system
Quote:

Using the Oort Cloud as an approximate boundary would mean that the size of our solar system approaches nearly 2 light years! That's equivalent to almost 12 trillion miles. Try to wrap your mind around that. And once you have wrapped your mind around that, remember that's just the size of our tiny solar system, which is just a speck in terms of the whole universe!

So, it is my current impression that most of a solar system may be "Wet", (Icy), and subject to cosmic rays, and receiving input from exploding stars which may include radioactive substances.

Going off track then we might suppose that Proxima Centauri may have a smaller version of that structure.

If it is possible that a dwarf world could support oceans under ice, due to radioactive materials from the Universe, then Proxima Centauri, and other Red Dwarf (M) Stars may have Dwarf worlds with oceans, if they are far enough outside of the explosive magnetic processes of the star.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-12-01 09:11:54)

Void · 2024-12-01 20:02:20

One thing that I feel I have stumbled into are magnetic ice bullets, and a related possible type of Oxygen ice/paste bullets. Perhaps both could be expelled from a ship hosted mass driver, or to deliver materials to a target from a world.

In effect these could be mini comets. My hope is that they would disintegrate from the vacuum of space and the heat of the sun, if shot out into the orbits of worlds.

The ice bullets could tolerate many included materials. You would want some magnetic dust for the mass driver to work with. But you could use simple regolith dust as ballast, and only use a small amount of water. This would be useful what abundant water ice is available in the asteroid belt perhaps at the ~3 AU distance from the sun. But it might be bad to do this too far away from the sun as the bullets would not disintegrate by evaporation.

If you could create an Oxygen paste you might use that further out in the solar system, or around the Moon. In this case I presume you would not use combustible substances but dust of Oxides, such as Magnetite, and plain old regolith dust as filler.

The hope would be that these bullets would evaporate explosively and not leave behind clumps of dust. This is desired to avoid polluting the space lanes with collision hazards.

Looking at icy asteroids, I am hopeful to efficient accumulation of materials to orbit.

An orbiting target, such as a cup or slotted ring might be a target that ice bullets could be shot into from the surface of a major asteroid. I have discussed some things like this in post #65.

Pause......

A spinning magnetic cup could collect these. Having the characteristic of magnetism to attract the shattered ice bullets, and also centrifugal force to hold them to the sides of the cup. There is also a possibility of the bullets being sticky if melting just the right amount upon impact.

The lower the gravity of the donor object the slower the bullets can be accelerated to travel to such a cup.

Such a mass driver matter projector might work for worlds like Ceres and 10 Hygea, and I suppose maybe some moons on the outer solar system.

It may also be possible to use magdrive and/or Neumann Drive to project metal matters to such a cup. However I do not know how focused their output can be. If the dust is magnetic and very fine then it might hit into the cup at such a speed as to maintain it's orbit. If it orbits a small world and projectors are positioned all around the surface then this is a possible way to get bulk materials, into useful positions over such small worlds.

I have suggested an iron filings shock absorber: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=ir … RE&first=1
Image Quote: red-blue-horseshoe-magnet-iron-filings-white-background-closeup-red-blue-horseshoe-magnet-iron-filings-159633939.jpg
So, if we have a spinning cup in space, can we have a iron filings beard-like shock absorber inside of the cup?

So, the shock absorber will keep reforming itself with each impact, I believe. There could be some sort of electrical kick back in the magnetic electric circuit though. I do not know if that could be trouble.

While we might hope to be able to do this for our Moon, using Oxygen as the "Paste" for the bullets, the speeds will be very much higher. I think the chances for success could be better for worlds like 10 Hygea or Ceres.

Here is one possible notion of it:

A larger device of similar purpose would be a sort of ring that would encircle an entire world. The smaller the world, the more realistic that could be.

We might consider that eventually there could be collector cups or rings around Callisto. Those could perhaps host human habitats as the bulk of the device would to some degree also be radiation protection.

But I don't know if the method could work for worlds as large as our Moon or Callisto.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-12-01 20:50:16)

Void · 2024-12-03 04:48:45

I have been thinking about "Wet" or "Icy" throw mass.

In the case of "Wet" we might have a paste of Oxygen and regolith dust. We could add a magnetic form of Iron as well, but Oxygen as a Liquid is paramagnetic as well. I have read that you could make a paste of fine Aluminum and LOX into a paste and burn it as rocket propulsion. But if you use waste materials and LOX, and perhaps a bit of Magnetic Iron, the objects would not be likely to burn, except some types of Iron. (I might want Magnetite for that reason as it is Oxidized).

These objects then would be expelled from a Mass Driver to propel a spacecraft.

I believe that some similar form of this could use frozen Oxygen but of course requiring more cooling.

Where water is abundant, we might use an ice of water to bind, a bunch of waste dust with some Magnetic Iron in the mix.

In all cases we might want to hope to use these where we would expect the objects to decay like comets, and to disperse a dust that the solar wind would carry away. We would not want to create a huge collision Hazzard problem.

While it is true that we could make propulsion with a mix of Aluminum, and LOX, I am thinking that you might want to keep some of the Aluminum some of the time, to build things with.

And in processing Aluminum and Iron for those products you would have a lot of waste Oxygen you could use in Mass Driver projectiles, and a lot of waste materials as well other than that. But you could also just scoop up dust accumulations, to use for bulk in the projectiles as well.

As this appears to me the Outer Asteroids are likely to have some water, and virtually all asteroids will have a lot of Oxygen to spare.

We might also want to use "Wet" or "Icy" Mass Driver projectiles, as we may want to conserve the metals to be propellants in Magdrive and Neumann Drive methods as well.

The main concern about these projectiles is that they do not linger in any important space ways. The projectiles might end up burning up in an atmosphere, if being used to lift a payload to a higher orbit of a planet. Same for worlds without atmospheres, impact with the surface may be preferred.

Other methods are to eject them away from the orbital plains that spacecraft will use, or if possible eject them from the solar system entirely.

So, as any asteroid will provide multiple types of propellants, I think we should upgrade our opinions of asteroids both in the main belts and terrestrial crossers.

While many may only want to think of nuclear to power these things, I think solar has chances as well, as you might put power stations out in the ~3.0 AU locations and beam power to a spacecraft that is traveling not too far away. It could be quite a concentrated amount of power, I think.

Ending Pending

This showed up of course, but it is a weapon, but of course that is not what I want it for: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE Quote:

The Deadly Coilgun/Railgun Hybrid You've Never Heard Of (Helical Railguns)
YouTube
Spacedock
451.2K views
6 months ago

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-12-03 05:21:17)

Void · 2024-12-03 13:59:49

"Can't we all just get along?"

To comply with a reasonable request from (th), I have moved this material here. It was in response to a post by Calliban here: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 86#p228286 (Calliban's post #4.)

Well what I was looking for, after all: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE Quote:
Model Suggests Unusual Gravitational Point 3.81 Light Years From Earth
YouTube
Anton Petrov
168.7K views
4 months ago
Yes, of course, this is yet another "Maybe". There are a lot of them.
But if the solar system were so large, then I wonder how many dwarf planet sized objects might be in it, if this "Maybe" turned out to be real.
Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-12-03 14:08:01)

Void · 2024-12-06 08:51:04

So, if we can adapt to Ceres and Sub-Dwarf-Objects in the Asteroid Belt, we might do similar to Centaurs, and Dwarf Planets like Pluto/Charon. We might struggle to find stony materials on those objects, but also solar sails might be released from the inner system to cruse to Pluto/Charon, and impact. While yes they may vaporize, even still the debris may be of sufficient value to justify the maneuver.

In post #70 it is shown that it is thought possible by some that our solar system may extend as far as 3.81 light years out in places, and there is a notion that there could be dwarf planets and smaller objects down to large comets.

We already know that Eris is out there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eris_(dwarf_planet)
Image Quote:

While I am quite far out on a limb, suggesting that dwarf planets that can be further out than 100 AU at times, might receive more radioactive cosmic dust than the Earth, still I think that they do. So, it may be possible that they have plate tectonics over an ocean of water, which may allow the cycling of radioactive materials into that ocean from the surface. This may be true for some object, but maybe not others, or of course may not be true at all for any. But we might think that Europa may have something like Plate Tectonics in its ice. The radiation belts of Jupiter may supply Europa with renewed radioactive substances into its ocean.

I will try to process notions of how to work with Eris. Of course, Isaac Arthur has suggested giant chambers where you could set off nuclear bombs repeatedly for power. Maybe Hydrogen Bombs. These would have to be very large and strong chambers. But the explosions may be relatively gas free, so as not to create a pressure shock in a gas volume.
The explosions might then radiate heat to the walls of the chamber. Maybe even melt a metal to store the heat.

But perhaps more sensible fusion and fission reactors may be available a that time.

Also power could be beamed to Eris. It is a rather large object, and perhaps that would be practical some day.

There may be ways to get rid of much of the Ice Shell of Eris. You might evaporate it off, and then condense it onto the moon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysnomia_(moon)

In order not to waste the materials, perhaps a magnetic field could be imposed to keep the solar wind out during this process. Obviously if you could beam that much power, say from the planet Mercury, then you might hope to use some of that power to bring volatiles into the inner solar system from Eris. This is getting towards "Clark" Teck though.

But once you have conditioned the ice shell and presumed ocean of Eris to the amounts you wanted, then you have a Dwarf Planet core with some ocean and ice shell over it. You may then use that core as a source of heat, as it's radioactive process might continue over time. You might also be able to collect cosmic dust and inject it into the ocean of that world. If the ocean is shallow enough, then submarine robots might access the materials on the sea floor.

While the core as a source of heat may be low quality, you might insulate the top of the ice shell with some very good insulation to help keep the ocean melted and of a heat that you might want.

So, then if these were possible for Eris, maybe some other objects much further out of a similar nature, if they exist.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-12-06 09:18:32)

Void · 2024-12-07 09:24:10

I have a partial acceptance of the materials of this video. It suggests a deviation from the standard idea of how Mars was in early days. If we understand that better, I expect that we may understand how to return it to some state more compatible with human desires.

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=WRVORC

Quote:

That one time Mars's atmosphere collapsed
YouTube
Kyplanet
66 views
23 minutes ago

I agree that the warmer geothermal state of the planets in the first billion years of the solar system or so, can matter quite a bit as to how the planets evolved, Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars.

I am wondering about a more Hycean nature of such planets, and how Ammonia may have worked in those days.

Pause.............

OK, I think we just still do not have enough information about the nature of Mars though very deep history.

I will make the argument that if you had a method for ground heat to melt deep thick deposits of ice, then in the case of the southern hemisphere, water flowing down hill forms it's own heat. The flows can become translated to molecular vibrations I expect. If you had build up of thick ice over rivers this would insulate the flowing water, and so then it could be possible for water flowing downhill to move from the South polar areas to lower elevations and even lower latitudes.

For the North Pole, it seems more likely that a buildup of a body of water that was salty might mimic Antarctic dry valley lakes, such as Lake Vanda, and also warm bottomed lakes. This could include the example of Lake Vida.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMurdo_Dry_Valleys

I am not saying that there could never be open water lakes on Mars, but that they may be exceptional in the history of Mars.

We also have the possibility of transparent/translucent CO2 ice over water ice creating a local greenhouse effect, and also the possibility that ice clouds in parts of the Martian history might have warmed things quite a bit.

Beyond that however we need more information from Mars, I expect.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-12-07 13:07:10)

Void · 2024-12-12 13:30:30

I am interested in a sort of extreme farming method. In this case, at minimal air pressures, and probably with Microbes. Microbes can likely be Bio formed by simply subjecting them to an appropriate environment which will stimulate mutation and so then a sort of evolution.

But also, there are claims that this Moss has tested as being tolerant of a Mars environment.
https://earthsky.org/space/desert-moss- … stronauts/
Quote:

This desert moss could grow on Mars, no greenhouse needed
Posted by
Paul Scott Anderson
July 16, 2024

My bet is that although it is rugged, it will need some protection on Mars.

For such farming methods I want to skimp on life support for the "Crops" but rather try to find a sweet spot where the "Crops" are productive, with a minimum expenditure of resources.

A resource I want to conserve, is volatiles that would form a simulated atmosphere. On Mars this may not be too much of a problem, but in orbit, I expect all such farms to leak gasses, no matter how well made that they may be.

So, the lower the pressure, the slower gasses will leak out of the farms.

I recall Robert Dyck saying that Vascular Plants can go down to as low as 100 mbar. But I don't intend to focus on vascular plants. Microbes are more likely to adapt to an environment provided for them in a shorter amount of time.

Some reference materials about photosynthesis at low temperatures:
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.10 … -0711-6_12
Suggest as I have read before that about -20 Degrees C is the know limits.

https://www.sciencing.com/effect-temper … sis-19595/
The just above article suggests that temperatures low will reduce productivity, but I think the article is about garden crops, not extreme microbes or other organisms.

A vapor pressure calculator is wanted. That and some other resources about protecting from UV light might be found here: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 13#p190313
https://endmemo.com/chem/vaporpressurewater.php
For -20 Degrees C we might think of: "1.2230 mbar".

That verges on insanity, I think that over time it would be discovered that higher temperatures and higher pressures can be fostered with minimal costs, and that the productivity then would improve.

Anyway, what I have in mind is a Corset-Shell structure of rigid materials which could host a transparent bladder of a "Plastic Film" that could resist salts.

If the interior goes to higher temperatures and pressures, then the salt can be disposed of as a needed factor.

I will now seek to create a drawing to help illustrate what my thinking is:

The grey colored fluid filled containment might have a gas like CO2 in it with a fan to circulate the gas to even the interior temperatures.
Or it may be a part of some kind of thermal device such as a radiator.

The gap between the inner wall of the grey containment and the blue plastic bladder, would be filled with dry Oxygen. This is so that if air leaks out though the outer windows, it will not carry H20 and CO2 or other valuable gasses with it. Oxygen is practically a waste gas, if you have a proper running space industrial economy.

So, then the bladder needs to be largely impermeable to H20 and CO2 and other gasses you want to retain due to their value.

I visualize the bladder not being filled with water so much as having a film of wetness across its inner surface, where Algae or Cyanobacteria could grow.

There would be a robot(s) inside the bladder to manage the "Crop". Harvesting and fertilizing it. A spray bottle might work to fertilize it.

And then you would need means to transport the "Harvest" to a more pressurized space, and also a means to extract Oxygen to a use and to deposit CO2 and water into the bladder.

So, I visualize this as a sort of "Space Lung/Farm", with minimal costs, I would hope.

I would want to avoid too much radiation protection for it due to costs and the fact that I want the microbe cultures to evolve through mutations to be in harmony with the environment provided to them.

These being light weight might work for space missions, and not just space stations.

And I think an adaptation of this could work for Mars.

The Organic materials grown could support the culturing of Mushrooms, or the microbes might be edible themselves.

And it might be possible to extract materials such as to assist plants to grow in low light situations. Acetate perhaps.

And Pyrolysis might yield things like Methane or Hydrogen.

So, along with growing Oxygen you could also grow to produce rocket fuels organically, and with some pyrolysis.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-12-12 16:14:00)

Void · 2024-12-12 16:17:21

So, from my point of view we might want to grow bulk biomass in extreme environments like indicated in the just previous post. But it would be nice to have decorative gardens at full human safe air pressure. Those might still grow useful foods, but I would hope that the vast amount of growth from such plants could be from Acetate. And then the lighting could be just enough for humans to see, so not that much. Such lighting could be artificial, or through windows. If windows then not that much light, to save on costs.

Ending Pending

Void · 2024-12-14 11:33:33

Objectives chosen in space are based on human interest and also the actual ability to achieve in the direction of such Objectives.

Objectives dealing with larger material needs are LEO, Moon, Mars/Phobos/Deimos, and Asteroids, I think, at this time.

Of all of these, LEO is more or less at the foundations of all the others.

I regard binary evaluations to be more than silly most of the time. Tribal primitive group think, is not so useful, in my opinion.

So, I support anything that may pave a path to expand human activities outward as an expansion away from Earth.

This video show interest in the Moon: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=WRVORC Quote:

Objections for Colonizing the Moon (and why they're wrong)
YouTube
Kyplanet
188 views
2 hours ago

I give such notions some weight in my thinking. However, I have been looking at getting propulsive mass to LEO as a mechanism to archive the Moon, Mars/Phobos/Deimos, Asteroids, and other things.

Pause................

Something that has become to greater awareness in my mind, is that the 2nd stage options to put on a Metha Lox booster can be variable in nature. SpaceX already has the idea of several versions of Starship. I value all of those, but it occurs to me that you could also put a Hydro Lox 2nd stage on top of Super Heavy, and that that option would be for yet another purpose.

In this other topic: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 83#p228483
Posts #487, #488, #489, and #490 address a version of this idea.

SpaceX is currently in a fluid state as per development of it's Metalox rocket series called Super Heavy and Starship.
So, now might be a good time to give consideration as to what sort of variation of Super Heavy might support a 2nd stage devoted to moving solid propellants, (Usually Metals), to LEO in an effective way. I have suggested upsizing the NOVA 2nd stage from Stoke Space, to be a variant 2nd stage for some form of Super Heavy.

In doing this SpaceX gets a freebie, as Stoke Space will do most of the work to prove their current small version, and later in a partnership SpaceX and Stoke Space might develop a much larger version of the 2nd Stage of NOVA to stack on top of a Version of Super Heavy.

I do not at all intend this to replace Starship, rather the two solutions to achive space flight can be supportive of each other.

And of course there are other companies that are developing Metha Lox 1st Stages, Blue Origin New Glen, Rocket Labs Neutron, and Relativity Space Terran-R. Also there may be options overseas.

In my idea of an upsized NOVA 2nd Stage riding on top of a SpaceX Super Heavy, I have focused on a hoped-for reduction in cost of lifting solid propellants, (Usually Metals), to LEO. This is intended to both support space construction and also to provide propellants to ships that may use either Neumann Drive or Magdrive. But those are both still in diapers, as far as development goes, so some faith has to be put into the objectives.

Pause................

So, then I suggest leveraging a presumed ability to have metal propelled robot spacecraft that can move liquid propellants and other supplies to convenient locations for refilling Starship.

In the beginning, the propellants to be lifted to orbit can be Methane and Oxygen. But down the road it may also be convenient to lift H20 and CO2 to orbit and to cook the propellants at a refilling location convenient to Starship.

If the refilling stations may have an association with the Moon, then we might hope to get metal Oxides from the Moon to support the refilling effort. But I do not want that objective to interfere with pressing on to Mars/Phobos/Deimos. If it can be made helpful to get stuff from the Moon, then fine. In that case robot spacecraft run on metal drives might move Methane only to those locations for Starship refilling.

Liquid propellants may well be a very good option for moving people about in space, because people are rather perishable.

But we do not need superfast robot ships that use metal as propellant and might use solar or nuclear for power. Super-efficient might be the way we want those.

So, then for Metal Propulsions the moons of Mars can be helpful, and then in that process Oxygen might be obtained as a liquid propellant to use in interplanetary travels.

Pause...............

Presuming that you could effectively lift metal propellants to LEO, then there could be at least two paths to the utilization of them.

I have described the method to use "Cups" of such propellants draped over a upsized version of NOVA. Upon deliver to LEO, they could be cut up to make "Rods" or "Bullets" for the Neumann Drive or Magdrive. In this case before cutting them up I suggest using a "Chevron" of these cups to handle some smaller types of Space Junk.

Maybe this could work for some types of space junk:

The desire is to make the problem improve and not to make it worse though. Anyway multiple cups to impact into might work for some types of space junk.

After having served that purpose, then perhaps the chevron of cups could be cut up to make propellants.

But a metal cup also might ride as a whole object with a robot spacecraft, and then some type of metal cutting method might feed the propulsion engine. So maybe just a bit like a can opener, to cut a spiral of metal to feed into the metal consuming propulsion system.

Well, I think that that is quite a bit!

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-12-14 12:52:48)

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