slavery - why does it still exist?

dicktice · 2003-04-09 16:56:29

Cindy:
Re. If everyone of the poor you hypothesize were spacetravel inventors, yes we would be on Mars, because that's where they spent all the money had.
Re. Wealth produces wealth--sure, because the rich have time to finagle and money to hire lawyers to help them avoid paying income, etc. taxes.
Relative little money, and lotsa' inventive love'll get us to Mars soonest ... by "us" I mean the ones who land on Mars, as well as the rest of us, naturally, who watch entranced....

Shaun Barrett · 2003-04-09 19:48:46

Thanks everybody for the well-reasoned and very understandable responses to the 'Herman Kahn' recipe for economic advancement. (Thanks in particular to Cindy for seeing Herman's side of the argument and defending it while I slept! )

I never really expected much support for this idea because (a) it is a broad and simplistic argument, as Clark pointed out, and (b) it flies so starkly in the face of the political persuasion of many of our friends here at New Mars!
This idea is really capitalism taken to extremes by giving it full rein to create wealth. It's total anathema to the followers of International Socialism.

Just by way of clarification, though, I don't think Herman's idea was to eliminate the middle classes. My impression at the time was that the full spectrum of economic levels would be represented between the richest and the poorest. And I assume full social mobility - up and down - would be an accepted corollary of the system since it's based on a free market.
Just before half the people here start jumping up and down yelling about how unscrupulous 'rich folks' (akin to lepers in many minds! ) will be the only ones with any freedom while the rest of us are condemned to wage slavery, I freely admit that such tremendous freedoms in the market would have to be balanced by correspondingly strict and strongly-enforced codes of behaviour.

I know many of you will be thinking that such a system would create opportunities for corruption on a huge scale. I have to agree with you. But there is no political system, past or present, that isn't corrupt to its core - that, unfortunately, is the nature of human affairs.
Control of the worst elements of human nature in Herman Kahn's system will be as imperfect as it is in any system, but the advantages of encouraging wealth creation without limit would include the eventual elimination of the worst elements of grinding poverty - hunger and disease.

I never meant to imply, by the way, that greed is a good thing. But it is one of the demons which humanity has never managed to banish. If we can't get rid of it, why not harness it and get the most out of it?

We know socialism doesn't work. Capitalism does work but has numerous flaws which need to be addressed on a day to day basis to prevent unacceptable excesses. That's O.K. We know nothing's perfect. But controlled capitalism just happens to be our best shot at prosperity.

I don't advocate corruption. Hell!! I'm an Aussie for God's sake - our national motto is "a fair go, mate"!!!
When I finally become dictator of the world, it'll be prosperity, freedom, colonies on Mars, a fair go for everybody ... oh, and free beer for the first week!!

Palomar · 2003-04-09 20:30:34

I don't advocate corruption. Hell!! I'm an Aussie for God's sake - our national motto is "a fair go, mate"!!!
When I finally become dictator of the world, it'll be prosperity, freedom, colonies on Mars, a fair go for everybody ... oh, and free beer for the first week!!

*I don't like beer. Can I have free strawberry daquiri's for a week? :laugh:

--Cindy

Shaun Barrett · 2003-04-09 23:16:36

Cindy writes:-

I don't like beer. Can I have free strawberry daquiris for a week? :laugh:

Yes ma'am ... as many as you like!! And may you drink them in the best of good health!

dicktice · 2003-04-10 08:16:58

Greed Power--yea!

George H · 2003-04-10 15:17:44

Greed Power--yea!

Well, they're like lust, always gonna be around. We just have to deal with, learn how to cope with them. Maybe we should put down lust too, hey yeah! Population control right?

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-05-16 15:20:02

an old topic

Can it be written into law that Slavery is banned on Mars?

Slavery the owning of a person's freedom, the ownership of a person as property. Slavery seems to have happened with every continent and culture on planet Earth it is still widespread in Africa, the issue of 'Forced Labours', Human trafficking happening at borders is sometimes described by news media as a form of slavery. In War the Germans put minority the Jewish to work in factories in brutal conditions, Imperial Japan in WW2 had death marches and Korean women were to give sexual services, White Western soldiers captured put to work in Japanese production centuries before this the Portuguese arrived in Asia, the Asian and Japanese slave women were even sold as concubines, the transatlantic slave trade, segment of the global slave trade that transported between 10 million and 12 million enslaved Africans. The Indian Ocean slave trade a multi culture of Slave Empires it was multi-directional and changed to different trades of different peoples over time. In zones of conflicts sometimes kids have their child hood taken away the Child Soldiers brainwashed and trained to murder, sometimes drugged up, violent and uneducated and used as weapons of war, Forced marriages or what can be described as pedophile crimes or early child 'marriages' are still common.

Will the topic of slavery ever be eliminated, 2003 and 21 years later we still have slavery today. If the Romans were still around today with space tech and eventually went to Mars would a guy like Spartacus revolt, Third Servile War

21 years ago Wars were expanding, the US on more friendly terms with Russia and Ukraine was not under invasion. People seen darkness in some of these years, seemed somewhat hopeful in 2003 it would improve, this period after 911 vs the Taliban in Afghanistan and it was as the US was starting another front with the invasion of Iraq, people expected to be on Mars soon. General Tommy Franks said the objectives of the invasion were, First, end the regime of Saddam Hussein. Second, to identify, isolate and eliminate Iraq's weapons of mass destruction but there were no WMDs it was all confusion, maybe a bluff by Saddam to scare Iran?
Bush junior had yet to announce his vision for Space Exploration, finish the ISS, launch all these science missions, retire the Shuttle and use the Moon as stepping stone to Mars.

unfortunately the world has got more oppressive, wars continue and slavery still exists

its also possible the USA is changing its role in the world, some say it can not be the world's UN or NATO acting as the world's sole 'Police Force' Obama pulled back from the jnr Bush policy but there was intervention in Libya, the rise of ISIS and War against the Islamic State, at times both Biden and Trump seemed somewhat isolationist.
Obama's military success noted was the killing of binLaden who was hiding in Pakistan, Trump was noted for ordering airstikes that may have killed ISIS leader al-Baghdadi, US began coordinating airstrikes with a Kurdish launched offensive in a complex evolving Middle East with lines redrawn across Arabia.

Today

Former Colombian beauty queen and actress found dead in Mexico after being kidnapped nearly a year ago
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl … ombia.html

Afghanistan women's national team exiled in Yorkshire call on FIFA to stop cowering to the Taliban
https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football … a-32745336

an old discussion on another board

open slave markets in Libya
https://rogue-nation3.com/thread-1960.html

and a strange story

Algerian man found alive after 26 years in neighbour’s cellar

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cg6766nzx39o

Mr Bin Omran told his rescuers he had at times seen his family from his prison, but claimed he had been unable to call out for help “because of a spell that his captor had cast on him”

Calliban · 2024-05-16 18:28:34

Slavery ended in the western world when we started using machines powered by coal. At that point, labour became progressively more skilled. Not really compatible with slavery. If slaves are being used for pure muscle power, it is quite an expensive form of power. Slave labour isn't free labour.

Slavery persists today in degenerate countries, mostly Islamic. Not because they need it, but because they like it that way. I think Mars should have a no-Islam policy. I don't see any benefit in importing those violent, abusive, lazy and degenerate people into the new world. Islam has brought nothing but suffering to humanity. It shouldn't be allowed to poison another planet.

clark · 2024-05-17 00:24:38

Calliban is a dip shut. Slavery didn't end with industrialization Slavery exists today because of power imbalance. Slavery persists because there is limited oversight . this thread is a joke.

Void · 2024-05-17 08:44:04

I think that for sure, greater Industrialization amplified the labor of people who might willingly make a contract to work. This surely reduced the power of the slave owner and made slavery relatively less profitable. Many people did not want slavery around, as if slave owners made a profit, they would then seek to take all the good land, and common people would be all the poorer.

A slave owner, regarding their slave as valuable property, might in some cases hire a poor non-slave to do the most dangerous and back breaking work.

Christianity and possibly Judaism in the Middle East resembled Islam in the Middle East for many undesired customs such as mutilation of females, and also the mutilation in a severe degree of male slaves. It to some degree was a thing of the Middle East, and not necessarily of Islam only, in those areas.

An increased disregard of the individuality of those who could be forced to submit.

The verbal skills of the area influencing the literature of the area, and also a very violent and evil nature displayed.

From time to time the sickness leaked into Europe and then into the Americas. There was profit in such nasty behaviors, so then the sickness could grow.

I used to be very down on the Roman Empire, but I now understand that it was to some degree a step up, and some degree a step down. They seem to never have quite gotten to an industrial revolution, but they might have come close.

There is some hint that their better behaviors were influenced by people of the Indo-Iranian types, and that when more people from the middle East appeared in Rome, things went to hell. But that was before Islam for the most part.

The Mediterranean Sea seems to have bred (Persons of degenerate practices, (Starts with "W")) over time, and people from the North would reset the situation to a better more elevated structure from time to time. But don't get me wrong, I do not see the Northern people as superior, rather that in the proper circumstances a linking of the Northern and Southern peoples can produce a preferred result.

This process is repeated in India to some extent.

I believe that the cruelty of the southern people is more continual, and relatively low key. In the north it is periodic, and periodically intense. But there is cruelty available to all if they seek it out, unfortunately.

The south uses verbal continuing feminine cruelty, and the north uses the periodic male cruelty. In my opinion. Some places have been relatively broken away from the methods of the Middle East, to join these. To some extent Europe and India were so. The Atlantic Coast fostered development of a more harmonious joining of these forces. And then some other places have so far been in such a development.

You need not be deceived, China is of the North, not the South as they might want the world to believe. Sub-Saharan Africa is of the south. But do not think of a binary, but rather a Y or a Delta. (Where is my medication?)

In the USA, unfortunately as the location of Washington DC has slipped from being in the Null Zone, into the South zone, the Democrat party has now tried to identify the north people as alien to America, and has tried to resetup a vertical principality of power for itself.

In their craving to set this up for themselves, they have not only sought to perpetuate their elite vertical rulership over their lower minions, but they have also tried to put the north peoples under their minions, and then to so rule without regard to decency.

But no, I am not by heritage a Republican, but I recall a different democrat party, where common people of the north were not harassed for the color of their skin or their gender or attempts to walk on their own hind paws morally.

A Representative Republic(s) is what we are, Democracy is an excuse for a slave patronage system. They have demonstrated it themselves. I did not want to believe it, but it is shown to be true.

Has the Republican Party done what it needs to do? Well, nobody is perfect, certainly not me. Unfortunately, I tend to not be as wise as a serpent, and not nearly as gentile as a dove.

If Calliban is a joke, Clark, then let's have a party! You should be happy.

Done

The same Democrat desire to subordinate the North in the USA, is further lived out by the pathological desire to attack the worlds North which includes Russia, Iran, and China. These people simply want vertical power, and do not respect the lives of individuals. But no, I would not trust my fate to the greater world north either.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-05-17 17:05:13)

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#26 2003-04-09 16:56:29

Re: slavery - why does it still exist?

#27 2003-04-09 19:48:46

Re: slavery - why does it still exist?

#28 2003-04-09 20:30:34

Re: slavery - why does it still exist?

#29 2003-04-09 23:16:36

Re: slavery - why does it still exist?

#30 2003-04-10 08:16:58

Re: slavery - why does it still exist?

#31 2003-04-10 15:17:44

Re: slavery - why does it still exist?

#32 2024-05-16 15:20:02

Re: slavery - why does it still exist?

#33 2024-05-16 18:28:34

Re: slavery - why does it still exist?

#34 2024-05-17 00:24:38

Re: slavery - why does it still exist?

#35 2024-05-17 08:44:04

Re: slavery - why does it still exist?

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