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Void

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Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,821

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

This is actually the video which I did not have for the last post: https://isaacarthur.net/video/comet-mining/
Quote:

Comet Mining
Aug 17, 2023

I am thinking about his ideas primarily but supposing to add features in similar to rubble pile asteroid processing, and also growing building materials from living things.

And this might apply to ice moon materials also.

So, solids that might be used as building materials are minerals, Plastics, Wood and other plant matter, ices, Carbon structures and I would imagine other things.

The snow line is supposed to be at 3 AU to 5 AU from the sun.  So, about the Asteroid Belt to Jupiter.  These locations are close enough for solar concentrating mirrors.

Calliban has previously offered calculations for ice covered water balls, and that is still interesting, but here I am sort of thinking of building protective shells from materials similar to a Comet, or Ceres, or Callisto, and so on.

So, reflective foils and mirrors might protect shells made of Pykrete.  Pykrete: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pykrete
Quote:

Pykrete

A slab of pykrete

Pykrete is made of 14% sawdust and 86% water by mass.
Pykrete is a frozen ice composite,[1] originally made of approximately 14% sawdust or some other form of wood pulp (such as paper) and 86% ice by weight (6 to 1 by weight).

During World War II, Geoffrey Pyke proposed it as a candidate material for a supersized aircraft carrier for the British Royal Navy. Pykrete features unusual properties, including a relatively slow melting rate due to its low thermal conductivity, as well as a vastly improved strength and toughness compared to ordinary ice. These physical properties can make the material comparable to concrete, as long as the material is kept frozen.

Pykrete is slightly more difficult to form than concrete, as it expands during the freezing process. However, it can be repaired and maintained using seawater as a raw material. The mixture can be moulded into any shape and frozen, and it will be tough and durable, as long as it is kept at or below freezing temperature. Resistance to gradual creep or sagging is improved by lowering the temperature further, to −15 °C (5 °F).

So, if you have a shell made of metals, ceramics, plastics and so on that can protect a Pykrete shell, you could keep the Pykrete components near to ideal temperatures.  And the Carbon Bags that are considered for working with rubble pile asteroids, those and cables can also be used.

So, essentially you are segregating types of materials, using the less volatile materials to shade the increasingly volatile materials.

In thinking about this, it occurs to me that these things might be very large so it may be possible to cast such a large shadow that you could facilitate superconductors at very low temperatures, and so then could host a very large magnetic bubble which would possibly surround the very large built device.

I am no expert on this, but I leave the possibility open: https://www.osti.gov/biblio/5486791#:~: … conductors.  Quote:

Abstract
Applications for superconducting magnets in space include particle astrophysics detectors, semiconductor crystal growth, magnetic refrigerators to reach temperatures of a few millikelvin and magnetic energy storage. Superconducting magnets are well suited for use in space because they consume very little power, and superconductors can operate at current densities which are much higher than conventional conductors. This paper presents the general requirements for superconducting magnets in space. The paper discusses the selection of a cryogenic working fluid and the selection of superconductor for space magnets. A 260 mm warm bore 3 T solenoid and the ASTROMAG particle astrophysics experiment solenoid for the space station are presented as examples of superconducting magnetic technology for use in space. 15 refs., 5 figs., 2 tabs.

So, I am imagining a very large toroidal shell with protective metal mirror, and magnetic field(s).  To a large extent made of Pykrete, rotating just a little so that a small amount of artificial gravity would be inside of it.

And a huge cold shadow behind it.   I am not having strong thoughts of pressurizing it's interior much, but do not prohibit thinking on that in the future.

The magnetic field might be used to modify the solar orbit of the object.  Possibly to cause it to not orbit so far out into the solar system.  Using the solar wind more or less.

A first attempt:

So, a cross section of a Pykrete Torus Shell, with a bit of spin, mirror pointed at sun.  Having considerable protection from radiation and impactors.

This might host synthetic gravity machines both inside and outside the Pykrete Shell.

Magnetism might be used to further protect from radiation, and also it might modify the orbit.

I am presuming that woody type plant tissues would be grown in greenhouses to provide the "Sawdust" for the Pykrete Shell.

Oh well, it does not look that bad.

Keeping in mind that you might build this from materials of Ceres or Callisto, and other such worlds.

Done.

Robots could work in a temperature of -15 C, in a substantial vacuum inside the Pykrete Shell.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-18 05:11:20)

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tahanson43206

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Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,413

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

For Void re #1251

It's good to see Pykrete back in the "news" .... thanks for including a bit of history for new readers, who might not have learned about that difficult time on Earth.

Your concept of a hot region on the Sun side, and a super-cold shaded region on the outside for highly productive use is a combination I don't recall seeing before.

May I offer you a bit of a challenge?  Please enhance your design with the elements that will safely endure tension to hold your habitat together.  They may well be there in your mind, but I'm hoping you will add them in a future post.

In addition, perhaps others in the forum can help by looking for objects that might have the needed characteristics (atom types) that you would need to bring together to creating a working structure.

Also ... if humans can carry out construction on this scale, then surely aliens could do as well.  Development of these ideas might stimulate interesting science fiction. 

(th)

Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,821

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Thanks for the encouragement (th).   Isaac Arthur has inspired it.  But yes, the Pykrete, in some parts of orbital space that may become quite a thing.

I know that Voyager Space Station is contemplating an ice radiation shield, but Pykrete is a material that if kept in its happy space may be very valuable.

I am moving slow on it as I do not want to rush it and miss some possible useful notions.

I think many places will support it, but we might want to have an eye on Exceptional Asteroids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e … _asteroids
Image Quote:
There is quite a table in the link above.

Many of these are in the outermore asteroid belt and many have lots of Carbon and Water.  They should have some Nitrogen as well in at least some cases.

Here is another try:

So, what I have in mind is antisolar panels on the outside of the Greenhouse, so that as heat leaks out of the greenhouse electricity will be generated.  I do not intend that the greenhouse walls will be insulated.  Just a pressure shell with Antisolar panels on its outsides.

The Pykrete needs to be at optimal temperature.  I have attempted to provide pathways for infrared radiation coming off of the greenhouse to leak though the Pykrete shell, into the thin metal shell.

Only the greenhouse shell will be significantly pressurized.

The thin metal shell may hold some air possibly below the viscous flow pressure.

But it needs work, I fear heat buildup, so I have to consider that.  This is not an engineering diagram or sized well, it is just a communication device.  (The picture).

In actuality, I anticipate many of these hooked together, and in some cases the greenhouse might be replaced by a human habitat.

Ceres is said to be about 20% Carbon on its surface, and has lots of water, so we might anticipate growing a lot of "Woody" plant materials.

But as I have said previously the notion of Pykrete in orbit suggests a lot of potential to me at this point.

Probably much cheaper than trying build everything out of metal and glass.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-08-18 07:34:59)

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tahanson43206

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Posts: 19,413

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

For Void re recent inventions ... If you are inspired by Isaac Arthur, the inspiration seems to be working!

A community that far out in the Solar System needs to be self-sufficient.  I would like to remind you of My Hacienda, which is intended to collect all the specializations to support a first tier civilization in a location away from Earth, where literally billions of people support the economic flows that make first tier civilization possible.

The community in one of your gigantic structures will need to be able to make everything they need and most of what they want.

RobertDyck has made the first tentative steps to resume work on Large Ship.  Many if not most of whatever he puts together for Large Ship is going to be needed and desired for your remote community.

I understand and appreciate that you are working at the conceptual design level, but an occasional focus on the needs of the population will fit nicely into your ongoing series.

(th)

Void

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Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,821

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Well, once again thanks for your attention to my posting and that of others.

I just took a covid test and it is negative.  I think that what I have had is a bacterial infection.  The reason being that I know who I might have gotten it from and she required medication for it.

Thankfully my lungs are coming back, I was concerned about pneumonia, but it is now attacking my upper and lower portions, sinus and

So, I am not up to much that might be exceptional for me.  Just bored as I have to limit human contact.  Head works somewhat for output, but reading stuff is rather loss of focus.  But I will do what I can here.  I don't want to get into excessive heated discussions as I am irritable and lacking some of what mind I should normally hope to have.

Yes, the Asteroid belt is out there, but with refilling at Mars/Phobos/Deimos, it could likely be reached.  And the rewards for that could be very large.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-08-18 10:23:24)

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Void

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Registered: 2011-12-29

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I guess that at some point an investigation into the potential of Pykrete as a pressure vessel for a greenhouse could be done.  Seems like I have started such.

I think that if it were connected to a proper fluid involved heat engine, and if a rigid Carbon Nanotube fabric web could bound it maybe it could be trusted.

This, I suppose could be a good radiation barrier.

I don't trust Pykrete itself, as I might fear that it would creep and deform over time.  But as already mentioned perhaps a corset of Carbon Nanotube fabric and some such cable restraints might keep it from deforming excessivly.

You would be working with a permafrost farm, which does happen in Alaska and I presume other places.  You can thaw the soil for long enough to allow crops to grow during a short summer, as long as you don't melt the underlying permafrost.

Permafrost farming:
https://modernfarmer.com/2014/01/permaf … -possible/

https://www.bestcoolseeds.com/pages/pre … permafrost

Anyway, it can be done more or less.

In our case however we are going to want to keep the deep soil cold with the boiler of a heat engine.

So, you use a fluid in pipes to draw heat out with the intent to generate power.  So, then you need a space radiator to go even colder than that to be the condenser.

(I have cabin Feaver, which is why I am doing this)

So, your working gas may be Nitrogen or Ammonia or some Hydrocarbon.

You heat path is Pykrete Garden Cylinder>Solar Heater>Space Condenser.  And that we hope turns a turbine or other heat engine mechanism.

Then the Condensate from the Space Condenser>Pykrete Garden Cylinder>Solar Heater.

I think that makes a loop.  (Head is fuzzy).

So, a number of inches on top of the permafrost of the Pykrete Garden is thawed, but below that is permafrost with embedded pipes as a primary boiler.

Probably no spin on the garden cylinder???  I guess it could be done.

But I need a rest.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-18 11:27:44)

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Void

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Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,821

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Me being goofy again.

At what temperature does water ice become stable in space?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswith … 14e0b5f919
Quote:

About 210 K
Once you get below about 210 K, you’re going to enter the solid phase for water — ice — no matter what your pressure is.

(-63.15 C) (-81.67 F)

So what about Phobos?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos_(moon)
quote:

Phobos is one of the least reflective bodies in the Solar System, with an albedo of 0.071. Surface temperatures range from about −4 °C (25 °F) on the sunlit side to −112 °C (−170 °F) on the shadowed side.

(253.15 K to 193.15 K)  The average then is (223.15 K), so just a bit high.

But there are a couple of other things to consider in my opinion.

The high temperature I think is one point on the sunlit side and the rest of the sunlit side would be cooler, I think.

The other matter is the albedo of Phobos.  Phobos is rather dark. one of the darkest in the solar system the quote above indicates, I believe.

From this I get the idea that encapsulated Pykrete in the orbit of Mars could be a stable solid.

I might have been discouraged as to the possibility of water ice in the Martian moons, but the above calculations suggest that they are on the border of being able to keep ice.  But if not, I was going to suggest bringing Hydrogen up from Mars.

The early sun was about 70% of what it is now, so, maybe there was ice, and maybe hydration inside still exists.  But the moons likely are not that old.

Anyway, if desired, I think that encapsulated Pykrete might be used in Martian orbit.  The rubble and the Oxygen would come from the moons.  If the Hydrogen is not available, taking it from Mars, it may be likely to be a very small percentage of the mass of the Pykrete.

I will stop now for a while.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-18 13:57:06)

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Void

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Posts: 7,821

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Once I did the previous post, I began to consider Sintering as a build method, especially for Phobos/Deimos.  Pykrete is interesting for Mars orbits, but for now, seems somewhat bothersome, and I wonder about sintering objects from Phobos/Deimos/Mars materials in orbit.

Sintering launch pads on the Moon: https://interestingengineering.com/scie … g-the-moon
Quote:

How to build a lunar landing pad
The study, carried out by the defense and space manufacturing company Cislune along with researchers from the University of Florida (UCF) and Arizona State University, concluded that the easiest and most economical way of building the lunar landing pads may be by utilizing sintering - a method that uses microwaves to melt the soil, while also engaging beneficiation, or sorting, technology.

So, for now I am thinking that if you started with a centrifugal Carbon Net Bag with regolith in it then with the artificial gravity inside the cylinder formed, you might be able to sinter components for a orbital shelter inside of that.  There would likely be a preference for an ideal synthetic gravity inside the bag, specifically to facilitate the manipulation of regolith into sintered shapes that could be joined together with metal pieces, also possibly using other materials for "Joiners".

So, I think the process could be:
-Get regolith into the spinning bag by some method that needs study and perfection.
-Process the regolith.
     -Using Hydrogen and/or Carbon, maybe hot Methane, reduce the regolith of Oxygen, and create water and/or CO2.
     -Using a combination of centrifugal force and magnetics separate the reduced materials into grades of magnetics.
     -Possibly process some of the magnetic grades for actual metals.
     -Sinter some of the "Tailings" of various magnetic properties into parts/objects.
     -Construct orbital objects composed of sintered parts/objects.
     -Join them into larger composite objects with metal parts and other parts.

Anyway, that sort of suggests to me that large well protected stations of sintered parts with metal and other materials.  Byproducts could be water and CO2.  Those can be further used and/or processed to satisfy needs.

While I like the Pykrete idea as something to review again, it may be that sintered parts for space stations could be sensible a virtually any small world.  Even for Ceres.

For the Moon we might try this sort of thing:

It sort of is build by similar methods to this:
From this post: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 19#p212619

So, can you sinter "Moon-Blocks" for this?  Yes, it seems: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 20m%20deep.  Quote:

In contrast to the above methods, producing sintered or melted regolith (SoMR) requires only lunar regolith and energy. Options for the production of SoMR include radiant furnace sintering; microwave sintering; regolith glass; cast regolith; regolith fibres; direct sintering; and some types of additive manufacturing.

Query again: "sintered bricks on the moon"  (Have a look at things for yourself)
General Response:  https://www.bing.com/search?q=sintered+ … ORM=HDRSC1

If we have a sintered brick Roman Arch, weighted down with berm(s), then we could put balloons in the North and South branches of the diagram above.  You could import "Balloons" from Earth for this purpose, but eventually I think you might want a "Metal Balloon" creation on the Moon itself.

Perhaps Aluminum foil of a very heavy gauge could be used inside of the Roman Arches.

Then to make pressurized space this foil of a metal needs to be having a "Welding" process to join pieces of foil into big balloons inside Roman Arches and requires the ability to join airlocks to and end of the balloons.  Surfaces to walk on inside of the Balloon may need some protective tiles that somehow will not cut the Aluminum foil when you walk on them.

To get the foil, Lunar Regolith might be processed similar to for Phobos/Deimos: (From earlier in the post):

-Process the regolith.
     -Using Hydrogen and/or Carbon, maybe hot Methane, reduce the regolith of Oxygen, and create water and/or CO2.
     -Using a combination of centrifugal force and magnetics separate the reduced materials into grades of magnetics.
     -Possibly process some of the magnetic grades for actual metals.
     -Sinter some of the "Tailings" of various magnetic properties into parts/objects.
     -Construct orbital objects composed of sintered parts/objects.
     -Join them into larger composite objects with metal parts and other parts.

Obviously, you could make toroid Roman Arches in a manner similar to this.  Possibly creating a bicycle track for exercising?

But, although I think that there could be a need for a small number of humans on the Moon, robots will by far be using these shelters, and likely they would not require pressurization.

That is quite a bit for this morning.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-31 13:45:00)

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Void

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Posts: 7,821

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

So, what I posted last made me think about some materials that kdb512 posted elsewhere.  That was for Mars, but could also apply to some degree to the Moon and other worlds I expect.

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 94#p212394

kbd512
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Closed-loop heat engines are the only practical way of supplying long-term power at the 100kW+ output level.  In the case of nuclear thermal, heat from fission drives the working fluid (Helium, Neon, Argon, molten salt, molten metal, water) through the turbo in its turbo-electric generator(s).  In the case of solar thermal, external power from the Sun drives the working fluid through the turbo, but the heat is collected and stored in a large mass of insulated material first.  Mars supplies a near-vacuum (best insulator there is) at Mars Sea Level to prevent the hot sink from rapidly losing stored thermal power to the surrounding environment, but since this power generation system will be ground mounted, the surrounding volcanic regolith or rock must form the walls of the heat storage tank.  One of the stainless steel tanks from an expendable Starship could hold many tons of molten Sulfur.  If it has a double tank wall, to act as a vacuum-insulated stainless thermos, even better.  The LOX and LCH4 header tanks have a combined volume of about 34m^3 and weigh about 630kg to 650kg, each.

As an example of how we could do this, Mars has plenty of places where the ground right below a thin layer of regolith dust covering appears to be pure Sulfur.  Sulfur melts at 112.8C and boils at 444.6C, so the usable temperature range is 331.8C if the hot sink design mandates that the Sulfur remains liquid at all times.  Sulfur has a specific heat capacity of 732 Joules per 1kg of Sulfur per 1°C, so 331°C * 732J/kg°C = 242,292 Joules of heat energy can be stored in 1kg of Sulfur by heating the Sulfur from 113C to 444C.  1 Watt-hour = 3,600 Joules, so 242,292J = 67.3Wh of heat energy.  This would imply 100% efficiency, but no heat engine is 100% efficient at converting heat to electricity.  Perhaps we can realistically obtain about 30Wh of electric energy from 1kg of Sulfur heated to just below its boiling point.  To store 3MWh of energy, we would require 100,000kg / 100t of Sulfur.  Liquid Sulfur is about 1,800kg/m^3, so 56^3 of storage volume should be sufficient.  The Sulfur would be collected from the surface of Mars and does not require much further processing to store energy.

Let's assert that a 18.67m^3 Starship LOX header tanks weighs 633kg, or 900kg with a double-wall and support stand to keep it off the ground.  3 tanks gives us 3MWh of storage using Sulfur collected from the surface.  A complete 10MW geared sCO2 turbine skid weighs about 20t, with no optimization for weight.  A 10MW generator weighs another 20t.  Every 2,700t worth of Starship LOX header tanks is enough equipment to store an additional 3MWh of energy.  A 100kWh / 600kg Tesla Lithium-ion battery with 100% of its capacity drained provides 166.67Wh/kg, so a 3MWh battery weighs 18,000kg.  We have to eat the mass of the 20t 10MW sCO2 turbine and generator, 40t in total, but storing another 3MWh only involves 2,700kg of stainless steel, plus the mass of the mylar to reflect heat into the pipes.  The problem is not how to store a paltry 3MWh of energy, it's how to continue expanding the available storage capacity without adding an enormous amount of additional weight.  If the Sun is blocked for 3 months by dust storms, or that silly little phenomenon known as "seasonality" happens, then you need power storage for 3 months.  The mass of the batteries will rapidly outstrip the mass of additional thermal power generation and storage equipment, and the equipment (photovoltaics or reactors) to charge the batteries will be just as heavy because it's electrical.

To store 18MWh of electricity, you need a bare minimum of 108t of batteries, exclusive of all other required equipment.  To store 18MWh of electricity using stainless tanks and Sulfur, you need 16.2t of stainless LOX header tanks.  108t of steel can store enough heat to provide 120MWh of electricity.

If you brought a single 10kWe KiloPower reactor with you, then you have 30kWt of waste heat that it generates at full output.  That waste heat can be pumped into the Sulfur tanks.  It would take 224 hours and 20 minutes, or about 9.5 days of full power output to store 3MWh of power in the Sulfur tanks.  The current plan is to reject the 30kWt of waste heat into space using giant radiator panels.  I think loading that waste heat into molten Sulfur for future use, is a much better plan.

Eventually, you can collect enough surplus waste heat energy from a single reactor to undertake high power consumption activities such as drilling a geothermal well to tap into the planet's heat reservoir, and then you have permanent heat input without additional reactors or batteries flown in from Earth.  You can use some combination of solar and nuclear thermal power to act as a "spark plug" to light off the industrialization process, but shortly thereafter you must start producing and storing your own thermal power using locally sourced materials and heat sources.  It will take a lot of time and effort to construct GW-class reactors using Martian steel / Uranium / Thorium, but a permanent thermal power source needs to be created as soon as possible.  After you have access to a permanent supply of heat / electricity / thermal energy storage, then you can begin colonization.  Dumping 3/4ths of your reactor's total power output into space is not a very good plan, though.  It needs to be stored, even if you only get half of that input back as electricity or mechanical work output.

Speaking of mechanical work, Mars needs CO2 powered air tools for construction, and those turbines can help fill CO2 tanks to feed the power tools.  Large shops use air powered tools to fix cars and other heavy machinery, not batteries.

Thanks for the materials kdb512

I have been spouting about Anti-Solar Cells, but truthfully I don't know how realistic they are to use at this time or ever.

Heat Engines using fluids are probably more realistic, and understood, and understandable at this time.

Where I am going with this might also borrow from another work that kdb512 is involve with:  http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 99#p209999  The topic is "Index» Science, Technology, and Astronomy» Limestone-based Thermal Battery"

But I am not looking at it for cars.  From my previous post #1258, Quote:

Perhaps Aluminum foil of a very heavy gauge could be used inside of the Roman Arches.

  Probably needs to be thicker metal for a hot or cold liquid tank.

So, then for something like this:

Making the North arm as a hot side and the south arm as a cold side.

I am of course thinking of the month long Lunar day/night cycle. 

And then at the "Hub" you would have a heat engine.  I guess your fluid might be CO2.

Ideas are welcome.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-19 14:29:30)

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Void

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

OK, I stumbled across this just now:

Eddy Current Brake to Orbit

The phrase is from this article: https://lunarpedia.org/w/Eddy_Current_Brake_to_Orbit

That version being specific to the Moon.

As it happens it is not too far off from concepts I have been drifting towards.

They suggest an orbit of 10 km.

They suggest a differential speed of 188 meters per second.  But the last 18 meters per second they intend to bleed off with actual friction.

So, I converted it to units that I could better understand and yes that is a lot of speed.  I want to catch dust particles.  Not likely to work out.

But if you had a rotavator, maybe.

I have been here before.  I might like to drop stuff like Carbon and wood down to the Moon, and catch up to the rotovator dust, magnetic, and if possible, dust not magnetic.

So, I have some hope that with the use of a rotovator, lower speeds would make it allowable.  So, I would be trying to catch dust, at least magnetic dust, into a "Bucket", using magnetism and perhaps some sort of friction method, and with centrifugal force hoping to retain the dust into the "Bucket".  We could also consider how a rubble pile might be able to act like a catcher's mitt to catch a piece of rubble.

"Bucket" not necessarily looking like a wash bucket.  I am not sure what it would be like yet.

Here is a video from Isaac Arthur about tethers including rotavators: https://isaacarthur.net/video/upward-bound-skyhooks/

Sources of dust could be from a mass driver, or I think from a Neumann Driver converted to project dust as an exhaust from the surface of the Moon.

So, to consider a "magnetic rubble pile sponge".  A wiki, thanks! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_filings
Image Quote:   Quote:

Iron filings on a magnet.

So, some quality of our "Bucket" could be as a shock absorber, which should continually reform itself if it is in a sufficiently strong magnetic field.  The inertia of fine particles in the magnetic sponge and also the possible magnetism of the particles to receive may allow collection of dust shot up from the surface of the Moon.

I don't know at this time if the receiver will be overtaking the dust at the intersection of the two.  Maybe the dust will be overtaking the receiver.

This could be masses of dust from a mass driver, or a plume of dust from a Neumann Drive.

To some degree you might even want it to hit a wall, and then drop into a bucket by centrifugal force.

I anticipate that the magnetic field will be very strong, or I might like it to be.

So, I am supposing some device somewhat similar to these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_sail

I am not sure I am on good footing, but I also suggest using electrostatic forces to assist in the collection method.

I have the vision of shooting an electron beam out of the rotavator so that the collection bucket was (+).  I am aware that the electrons will circle back, but am thinking that maybe somehow the dust projected from the surface of the Moon could be impacted by the electrons (-).  That that may make the dust spread out, so I am not certain at all about good results.

So, then I want to try to find a way to get materials other than Iron and Nickle into the dust plume/pulses and yet use the magnetism and electric charges also collect those.

If the dust were being shot out of a mass driver, you could have a magnetic grain of dust attached to a non-magnetic grain.
Some metals like Aluminum may inductively react to the magnetic field.

If it is from a Neumann Drive, you might shoot a plume of Iron Exhaust into a plume of some other exhaust maybe Silicon or again Aluminum.  If you need to send Oxygen you might be able to partially Oxidize an iron plume by exposing the plume to an output of Oxygen.

Of course, this may sound like making dirty orbits for the Moon, but they mostly should be low orbits, I think.  Also, most materials sent if they are not received should crash back down to the Moon, but I suppose there will be exceptions.

Many of the orbits of the Moon are supposed to be unstable, and so then objects in them will decay over time and then collide with the Moon that way.  I might hope.

Neumann Space again: https://neumannspace.com/

I think that their method is only small scale at this point, but I am hoping that it could be scaled up.

The materials that the Neumann Drive can work with: https://neumannspace.com/metal-propella … technetium.

It can work with many of these Iron, Aluminum, and Silicon, I believe.
Image Quote:

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-19 22:32:41)

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Void

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Posts: 7,821

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Alright I have been working here as of yesterday: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 04#p212804
"Index» Terraformation» Jupiters Realms" Post #47.

I think that there could be a sweet spot for use of Pykrete and utilizing solar energy.  Probably near the mud ball worlds that are frozen.  For now, to me that indicates many large asteroids and also Callisto.

But then you could go further out, say to Saturn/Titan/Other moons.  I think the sunlight is considerably less rewarding there, and obtaining metals and ceramics is probably harder.

If you jump out to Pluto/Charon, you have lots of materials for Pykrete and Plastics, but not so much for metals and ceramics.  So, the main materials are likely to be woody plant products, ice, and plastics.

But of course energy is a major issue.  You may be able to buy fuel for Fission, and perhaps Fusion could become real.  At least, you might set Hydrogen bombs off under the crust of Charon and run on the produced heat?

But then Lasers from the inner system.  And those might power ships that move between the inner system and Pluton/Charon.

I think that the combination of Asteroid Belt and "Jupiter's Realms", is more appealing.

Then back to Saturn, what about Titan?  The question of wood on Titan.  About 1.2% of the light that Earth gets.  Really large mirrors for that, but not impossible.  So, with the chemicals at hand and concentrating mirrors, I suppose orbital greenhouses could convert those chemicals to wood, and the wood be exported to Titan.  But the place almost certainly would be better with some types of Nuclear included.

So, I guess it stands that the "Mudball Worlds" are perhaps a sweet spot in the solar system.  (Large Asteroids and Callisto).

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-21 08:55:34)

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Void

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

So, I want to fall back now in scope back towards the Earth/Moon/NEO reach.  I did this post elsewhere yesterday: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 91#p212891 

I think that it is fair to say that nobody really knows.

But that there is some water.

I think one thing to consider is that post Apollo, it was presumed that lifting water from the Earth would be about ~$10,000 per pound or some other ridiculous amount.  And for whatever political reason it was decided to say that the Moon had no water.

$2,720/kg for Falcon 9 is better, but not at all cheap.

This looks pretty good: https://www.visualcapitalist.com/the-co … ce-flight/
Image Quote:

Well anyway the case for lifting Hydrogen to LEO does get considerably better.  And that may reduce the need to obtain water on the Moon.

So, the relative values of Earth, Moon, and Mars for materials to space may need reevaluation as to things that have by now become and obstructive dogma, left over from a previous era.

We may find more water on the Moon, but will it be cheaper to bring in Hydrogen from Earth or Mars?

For Starship, could depots bring Methane to Moon orbit, and Oxygen from the surface of the Moon more easily maintain shipping needed?

And with robotics and AI advancing, shouldn't we be looking at that arm of a Lunar effort to carry more of the Load?

That probably indicates less water needed for activity for the Moon.

In addition, if Depots were to move Hydrogen or Methane to Lunar orbit maybe they should be some type of electric for efficiency.

The LEO Space Station action is where it is going to be at as far as I can see, and that needs far less orbital refilling.

But on occasion when research merits it perhaps there could be a crewed mission to the Moon.

Now, back to "We really don't know", a few things to think about.

Recently a notion of the formation of the Moon had it forming with part of the Earth's atmosphere taken with it.

There is a lot of thinking that the Earth formed early on with water dissolved in its magma ocean.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … omposition.  Quote:

Measurements of hydroxyl or water in lunar materials are being used to suggest that melting source regions within the Moon contained tens to hundreds of ppm water. The compositions of magmatic source regions in the Moon can be calculated using magma ocean fractional solidification models, given an initial bulk composition.

Where this could matter would be if you could find veins of concentrated water, similar to how you might find such for Iron.  But we don't know yet.

It is now thought by some that the Moon and Earth may have been protected from the solar wind and excess sunshine, by the accretion disk itself.  So, the water may not have been baked out of all the materials that formed the Earth and then the Moon.

Artemus is what we have, so better than nothing at all, but I really think we should lean in the direction of robotics as that unfolds.

Done.

A video from Isaac Arthur, that I recently watched gave some rough numbers of Total Rocket Mast to Payload for Earth and for the Moon.  I believe it was about:
20/1 for the Earth,
2/1 for the Moon.

The numbers may be questionable as I may have misinterpreted them.

But I give a relative gain notion anyway.

So, what I am about to project requires that the Neumann Drive does work as advertised, and that it will be possible to scale it up to large vehicles.

I think we may be close to a level of development where we could set up robots on the Moon to build things, and very little mass would be transferred between Earth<>Moon, other than information.

The ability to sinter bricks would provide for Roman Arches, and the ability to move regolith could allow the piling of regolith on top of those arches.

If you also introduce Blue Alchemist, then you could build electrical power systems: https://www.blueorigin.com/news/blue-al … nar-future
Quote:

Using regolith simulants, our reactor produces iron, silicon, and aluminum through molten regolith electrolysis, in which an electrical current separates those elements from the oxygen to which they are bound. Oxygen for propulsion and life support is a byproduct.

At this point then if such can be done primarily with robots, you have Oxygen as a waste product, and it may be you have some "Leftover" substances after making the solar panels that you would apply to other needs.

Electrical wire?  I think Aluminum and Calcium may apply for that.

Would there be some substances left over that may apply to propellant for a Neumann Drive?

If so, then I would hope to set up an Earth<>Moon materials trade system.

I would start without the use of Aerobraking and then add Aerobraking in.

1) Without Aerobraking:
-Pallets of Neuman Drive Materials would be lifted to Lunar orbit with a Chemical Driven Ship.  Maybe Starship.
-The Chemical Ship will refill Methane in Lunar orbit.  It will refill Oxygen on the Lunar Surface.
-The Pallets of Neumann Drive Materials would be handed off to an electrical drive ship.  Perhaps with Neumann Drive.
-That ship will move the materials down to LEO, then bring a depot back to Lunar Orbit filled with Methane.
-It is possible that some maintenance for Lunar Starship could be done in orbit or on the Moon.

2) Adding in Aerobraking, then use the Neumann Drive Materials to make heat shields.

Here I am recalling the path that Apollo could take, returning from the Moon, after leaving the Moons gravity in the appropriate manner.  So, I am presuming that the electric propulsion system would do much of its work moving up in the Lunar Gravity well, and then leave that gravity well with Lunar Momentum in opposition to Earth Momentum.  That is how I visualize it.  Then the electric propulsion would refine the trajectory back to graze the Earth's atmosphere.  If someone wants to give me guidance on what is right and wrong about my thinking that would be welcome.

The Heat Shield would be designed to navigate the upper atmosphere, and not go too deep into the atmosphere.  From GW, I recall "Heat Sinking" and Ablation as two of the tricks at least that can be used.

I will add increasing the "Footprint" and pass through heat as two other possible tricks.

Starship increases the footprint with flaps.  I think that Virgin Galactic also has some tricks like that.  To my understanding, I don't think Appollo, or Dragon, or the Space Shuttle had expanded heat shield footprint.  They have "Full Body" heat shields.

As for "Pass Though Method", I see that as using a thin metal shell as shining heat though itself and radiating some of it out of its leeward side.  Sort of a thermal parachute, or thermal sail.

So, then you may have used aerobraking to assist in bringing the heat shield and Neumann Drive to LEO.  The heat shield then becomes propellant for the Neumann Drive Methods.

So, then the Neumann Drive picks up another Methane Propellant Depot and brings it to the Moons orbits.

That leaves those things piling up around the Moon, so we will want to figure out what to do with the empty ones.

It's possible that this plan may have merit.

I will mention the ideas for getting some materials from Non-Earth/Moon worlds, and also that some type of lithbraking might be included.  But those might be added on to discussion later.

I would not mind feedback.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-23 10:29:13)

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Void

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I think that a fair claim to make is that for Earth Up-Mass, a maturing process is evident.

I think it was said that Falcon 9 may have dropped the Up-Mass cost to 1/5th, and it is said at this point that Starship could drop it to $200, $20, or even $10 per kg.  To be conservative, I will go with the $200.  So just approximately, the cost of Up-Mass Hydrogen to LEO, is speculated to be at 50 times less costly than it was during the Apollo Era.  At least by way of weight.  Of course, it takes up space so a cargo hold of it would likely be lighter than one of Methane or Oxygen.

Hydrogen has also had a boil off problem, but now, I think we may be getting closer to better methods in space for it.

So, I feel again that a calculation of what the Moon is good for needs updating.

There are apparently plans of sorts for a Starship 2.0, which would be much bigger than the current system under development.  So, I guess there will be a certain scale of a rocket that will be the most cost effective.  I don't know if that will be it.  Actually, I don't know if it will ever happen.  Probably, eventually, I suppose, if there is to be a true benefit from it.

Several deeper space methods may be wild cards in this as well.  The Neumann Drive, Robotics, AI, Solar Sailing of some type.

But I think that the major point is that water from the Moon is considerably less important that I think it was considered to be, when the post Shuttle program was initiated.  But we seem to be sleepwalking with old perceptions, and not updating our thinking.

Water on the Moon will still be important but not nearly as important.

I do have some additional interest in Carbon.  It is a solid that could be lifted to Earth orbit and may be relatively easy to store.

It can be used as a rocket fuel or to make a rocket fuel.  It can be used in a Neumann Drive apparently.   Structure can be built from it.
It might be "Hard Landed" on the Moon and still have useful qualities.  It also may have some value as radiation shielding.

Carbon is available in significant amounts on most worlds.  The Moon of course is not overflowing with it.

Like water the amount of Carbon on the Moon seems to be being upgraded over time.

There is some hope of finding usable Carbon on the Moon: https://www.popsci.com/science/moon-car … old-traps/
Image Quote:

I am starting to wonder about the possibility of adsorption of Hydrogen and Carbon compounds into cold Lunar regolith.  That may not need an ice phase to exist.  Well to far above my pay grade and intellect.  I looks like some consideration of adsorption has been done, but maybe not as much as I would like.

But with the emergence of things like Starship, I wonder about the relative ease of getting materials from special locations on the Moon, vs. just shipping things in like Carbon.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-24 09:00:42)

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Void

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Making Bricks:

Mars_B4_Moon sometimes posts very useful materials, and here is one: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 68#p212968

Here is the link that I like from that: https://interestingengineering.com/inno … d-the-moon

I have made this:

For windows, I imagine Alum as it is high temp tolerant.

I imagine it as for the Moon, but it might be OK for Mars as well.

The white space might be pressurized, but mostly I imagine it as not pressurized.  The windows are to hold in infrared heat.  The walls of the white space might have Anti-solar cells mounted on perpendicular fins.

Solar panels might be on the front and anti-solar cells on the rear of those fins.

This might explain it more:

But that would not be the only way to do it.

Done.

Yes, maybe for Earth as well?

But Mars and the Moon have very cold nights.  You could open the windows more in the night if you want the Anti-Solar Cells to produce more electricity.

I am guessing this is not too far off.

Done.

And this could be a robot shelter as well for when the robots need additional protection.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-25 11:01:20)

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I won't do much about it just now.  I am thinking about getting Iron and Aluminum, etc. from space objects to Earth.

I see this as being some time off.  But if you could drop such down a rotavator, then you could use the energy put onto the rotavator to allow lifting things from Earth Atmosphere to Orbit.

The thing is if you are using space energy from the Moon or sun orbits, you can get these metals without disrupting the Earth's environment so much.

I am loyal to the mining places I used to be around, but maybe in 100 years or so?

Done.

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I will want to do a sort of continuation of post #1265, but here is a measure of what some current views of Mars are like:

Terraforming Mars: Inside the Insane (True) Plans to Make Mars Habitable

Megaprojects

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaVNX0rBbxk

Without the intention of criticism, I would note that the idea of Mars before Moon, also was sort of created along with Mars before LEO.  Granted, Starship or other needing to go to Mars does have to pass through LEO and also reconfigure in LEO.

But what about thinking about a different concept, "Pyramid to extensions"?

The Mars, Mars and only Mars attitude developed in an environment of poverty of ability.  So, the logic was Mars is the best "Other" place in the solar system, and there is only a little space ability available.  For those conditions, that attitude was reasonable.  But we are moving into moving towards an environment of enriched abilities.

For these emerging conditions, we still might send some Starships, and maybe Terran-R's to Mars, but most of the action is likely to be based in LEO, with the possibility of that base supporting extensions to the Moon, and Asteroids and not just Mars.

I have recently gone a bit crazy about the Neumann Drive and presumed a possibility that it's abilities can be expanded to large things.  But for now it is being put forward as a method to deorbit space junk, and also to consume space junk to do such deorbit activities.  So, for now that is the more realistic expectation.

Here is a decent article about that: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-06-13/ … /102469160  Quote:

Space junk is causing clutter around the Earth, but a small cube could help cut back on trash
By Bethanie Alderson
Posted Mon 12 Jun 2023 at 6:30pm

Image Quote:
Quote:

A capsule-shaped piece of recycled metal space junk.(ABC News: David Frearson)

Somehow that picture makes it seem more real.

Since they seem to intend to recycle space junk, then I can presume that some space junk could be recycled, reused, or repurposed in LEO for other purposes.

So, that would seem to suggest that sending "Naked" 2nd stages to orbit have an enhanced value in LEO, by many measures.

Many companies could send "Naked" ships to LEO.  Space X, Relativity Space, Rocket Labs, Blue Origins.  And of course there also international booster systems that could do so as well.

I was able to get this, a rateher recent update on Starship lifting capacity: https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2023/05/i … pacex.html  Quote:

Improved SpaceX Starship Should Lift 300 Tons Expendable and 180 Tons Reusable #spacex

So, I am probably looking at partially expendable, as I would not want to expend the Super Heavy but land it for reuse.  Thinking that way, I will do this (180 + 300)/2 = ?

So, I am going to guess that 240 Metric Tons is a best estimate of what a partial reuse can get to orbit as a payload.  I would not mind at all if someone might voice a different opinion.  And then in addition to 240 Metric Tons of cargo in LEO, you would have the dry mass of the "Not really expended" Starship.  If it is a 6 engine or stretched 9 engine ship, the values likely will be different.

I could be quite far off, but I am going to suppose that the "Not really expended" Starship dry mass might be about 100 Metric Tons.  I think 80 to 150 Tons may be the range of dry mass likely.  So, I will say 100 Metric Tons.

So, the Ship could be taken apart to provide for Repurpose, Recycle, and Reuse.  Engines might be reused by bringing them back down to Earth as "Down mass" in any spacecraft that can do that service.  Large Tanks might be repurposed to space stations, and propellant depots.  Other scrap materials might be converted to propellant for Neumann Drives.

So, doing the "Not really expended" mode, you would get 340 Metric Tons of mass to orbit, minus what is sent back down to the surface.  (Engines and things).

Terran-R and Neutron, 2nd stage could also be used this way, and also Jarvis from Blue Origin.

With space stations in LEO, some with spin gravity, astronauts might spend years in LEO, so this would reduce the amount of lifting of humans to orbit.  So, less of that would be needed.  Of course Starship is intended to lift people to orbit, but I think if you are not sending lots of people to Mars (Yet), the Dream Chaser might be very good for transporting humans up and down Earth<>LEO.  Of course it would need to be a crewed version.  I believe North American and European spaceports would likely host it, and I presume Japan and others would as well.

So, now I wonder about getting the Moon into the action.  Electric propulsions of some types will show up eventually to make the freight aspect of that more efficient, but for now, I am going to presume chemical propulsions.

Isaac Arthur might have sort of said that Oxygen Moon>LEO is likely 1/6 the cost of Oxygen Earth>LEO.  So, I presume that that is a sort of crude notion of how Metals Moon>LEO may fit in.

I suppose you might lift pallets of Metal, but if you consider "Blue Alchemist", and Relativity Spaces 3D print capabilities you might have tanks as cargo.

Landers for the Moon might have legs made of Plastics or Carbon, as those could be useful on the Moon.  The landers then would have made objects hooked to them and would leave the legs behind.

The legs might be used to make fuel, but more likely to make other things on the Moon.

A fuel depot in orbit would allow a lander to make multiple trips up and down from Low Lunar Orbit<>Moon.  On the Moon, the landers would receive more Oxygen.  Expended Methane Depot tanks in Lunar orbit might be towed back to LEO, or used to make a Lunar Orbital Space Station.

I have said that tanks might be built on the Moon, but perhaps they would be more like aerobraking devices.

So, when lifted to Lunar Orbit then to unhook from the Moons gravity and to do high altitude air braking in Earth's atmosphere, perhaps to end up in LEO.

For instance suppose you made a tank in the shape of a very large Apollo Capsule.  No cargo inside, just a shell, and a method to make sure the device ends in LEO.

If you made it the same size and mass of the Apollo capsule then without a heat shield it would burn up.  But if you increased the surface area to mass ratio to 100 to 1, then it might not need a heat shield, I am speculating.  In reality you could put an ablative heat shield on it on the Moon if you had to.

So, without using Mass Drivers, Tethers, and other exotic over the horizon technologies, it may be that mining the Moon for mass to LEO could be practical.

At some point Electric Rockets may be involved, I would prefer that it be the Neumann Drive, but I don't know if it can be sized up.  But you would have a large source of propellant for it that you might extract from the Moon.

That along with Robotics may allow for long duration missions to various places in the solar system, to put people places such as Mars, and also to retrieve things like Hydrogen and Carbon.

Having lots of Mass and Synthetic gravity will allow for ships to have good life support including radiation protections.

But this doe not stop early visits to Mars, and even setting up bases on Mars.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-27 08:27:42)

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Void

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I have this attempt.  It is certainly not a finished product:

I am hoping that it could skip off of the Earth's atmosphere like an Apollo capsule could have, (But did not want to).

The drawing is a bit misleading.  The shell is also payload, but since it is normal to think of the payload being inside of a container, I labeled it as such.

The item labeled as "Payload" should be likely to include a solar panel, a flywheel energy storage device, and thrusters of some sort, perhaps Neumann Drive will be sufficient.

The Payload will also need actuators that can move it within the Capsule Shell, to steer during an atmospheric skipping event.

I anticipate that this device might be flung from Lunar orbit by using a tether and an even bigger thruster system, perhaps even bigger arrays of Neumann Drives and Solar Pannels.

I think this would be a modest way to start using tethers.  When the joined objects release each other the item in the drawing will start falling though the Earh's gravity well to intercept the Earth's atmosphere, and the Parent object will be flung deeper into the Moons gravity well.

Any assistance to make this more sensible would be welcome.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-27 11:27:28)

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Void

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I picked up a few readings this morning which may relate to the previous post:

https://www.space.com/moon-metal-myster … aters.html
Quote:

There's more metal on the moon than we thought
By Elizabeth Howell published July 06, 2020

This does suggest that materials deeper down may be different than the "Churn" of the broken regolith.  Just maybe even more water.  I am not counting on that just suggesting that at certain locations it could be true.

Further heat shield notions:

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio … c_Re-entry
Quote:

A Deployable Aerobraking System for Atmospheric Re-entry
April 2020
DOI:10.13140/RG.2.2.34074.36801
Thesis for: PhD in Industrial EngineeringAdvisor: Raffaele Savino

I recall the membership working towards something like this, I think: https://www.nasa.gov/pdf/744615main_201 … Report.pdf  Quote:

B. Architecture II – Lunar Heat Shield Fabrication Facility for Moon-Earth Returns and
Moon-Mars Missions ................................................................................................1

I think that it might also work for Venus.

A tough read for me at least: https://arc.aiaa.org/doi/abs/10.2514/8.7604
Quote:

The Prospects for Magneto-Aerodynamics
E. L. RESLER JR. and W. R. SEARS
Published Online:30 Aug 2012https://doi.org/10.2514/8.7604

European Magnetic Heat Shields Here: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … C05E4A47EA

------------------------

I will say that I think that we are going to have to resist "False Realities", projected by elements of the Verbal Hive Mind.

An example is I watched a video where the comment was said "All of the water on Mars is locked up in the poles".

We do not believe that that true.  We do not know if this action was done from ignorance or malice.  There is probably some of each.

There exists in our population a subset that uses words to craft reality stories, which may be falsified, in order to enslave the population.

A supposed historical representation of this is plantation owners telling the slaves that if they run away the "Natives" will kill them.

I believe that these same people are trying to keep industrial/technological people inside of false realities, in order to exploit them.

And this can be done against us by any authority entity.  Don't fall for the left/right projection.

But with a little care, I think we can render their efforts less fruitful, and in the case of my country, more American.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-29 10:30:36)

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Void

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

So, we can try to brave the "Mars Roach Motel", "They check in but they don't check out".

At some point it made the most sense but reality has changed around that.

You have to understand that there is a subset of people who only want to milk the space program for inventions to take, and taxpayer money to divert.  (Into to pockets of the ordained).

They know that we do not like captivity, so they know we will try.  But like the mule with a carrot dangled in front of it we pull the load but never are allowed to get the carrot.  So, the danger as it has been for decades is that they will disrupt the flow, so that a whole new try can occur again.  But they have no intention of letting our people go.  So, you might expect that at some point while you were reaching for Mars they would push the ladder over, once again.  As the name of the game is to siphon energy from efforts into their pockets.

But now as it happens it may become true that there is money to make with space stations, both microgravity and synthetic gravity.
And so, we would suppose that the "Makers" who may profit from LEO may oppose the "Takers" looting activities.

And should this work out, it may be that it will be found how to involve the Moon in LEO economic activities.  And from there to Mars and the asteroids.

I am not suggesting waiting for Mars.  Rather that since it will be so important to service the economic activity of LEO, it will not be economically viable for the "Takers" to repeatedly disrupt technological developments.  So, many of the machines for LEO and the Moon will be suitable for contact with Mars and the asteroids.

It looks rather good, I feel.

Done

And those people who keep saying that we have too many problems to fix down here should go fix some of them, rather than trying to loot the dreams of the human race.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-29 10:42:14)

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I am not strongly invested in settling on Mercury, but I hope the membership may find this an entertaining set of notions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYkRVTdDswg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1FcjFm6Psw

Of course, my argument is that SpaceX and others and Vast Space will eventually make these options.

And the planets main disadvantage is the energy needed to get to it.

But it is believed to have lots of ice, and Carbon, and solar energy and minerals.

As I said, I feel that some people may be amused by these articles.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-29 13:31:08)

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I guess at this point I want to express the opinion that if the next generation of rockets make it to maturity, I don't think we will be looking at a choice between the Moon and Mars, but rather the emergence of a partial Solar system wide expansion.

And that is a good thing.

Done

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Mars Cycler: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxSbYk2epmw

All kinds of things are bubbling up in my head.  Hopefully not toxic gas from a sewage treatment plant!

But I, for the moment am rather excited as I think I see a few very nice things.

For a beginning the year or Mercury is quite close to 1/4 an Earth year.  Let me confirm.

https://coolcosmos.ipac.caltech.edu/ask … on-Mercury-
Quote:

about 88 Earth days
A year on Mercury is about 88 Earth days long1. Mercury has the shortest year of any planet in the Solar System1. It takes Mercury 87.969 days, or the equivalent of 0.24 Earth years, to complete a single orbit of the Sun2. Thus, it can be said that a year on Mercury lasts almost as long as 3 months here on Earth2.

Cycle me that!  Could we have a 4 to 1, or 2 to 1 cycler?

Now I am going to get weird.  Can we solar brake to Mercury?  We cannot aerobrake, as Mercury does not have the atmosphere for it.

Solar or Magnetic Plasma Sails travel from a condition of more energy to less energy at Mars.  But to sail from Earth to Mercury, then it is solar conditions near Earth and increasing all the way to Mercury.  Now I don't mean to stop the cycler at Mercury, rather a ship dumped out of the cycler at an appropriate point would have intense energy to work with to modify its orbit to that of Mercury.  It need work.

The Mercury Cycler could also at times Ballistically Capture itself to the Earth/Moon or maybe even Venus.

If something like the Neumann Drive can be scaled up, the robotic ships could bring supplies to the cycler very often from various places.

So, I don't claim it is a certainty, but I am seeing potential, I think.

And it could be that our first part of a Dyson Sphere would be Cyclers, many of them that join Earth/Moon and Mercury.
These would become full-fledged worlds of their own perhaps.

I would not mind comments at all.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-29 21:57:40)

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Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Quite a talk about ion engines, Argon version, and a Nuclear Argon dual mode propulsion system.

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … 045D295AF6  Quote:

SpaceX New Argon Based Ion Propulsion Technology!

I guess very little or no Terraforming will happen without space propulsion, so, I will consider that this can be here.

The idea the pose of a Nuclear Fission rocket that using Argon in both Nuclear Thermal and Nuclear Ion propulsion on a mission to Mars is new to me.  It does look very interesting.

The Earth an Mars are good for the Argon.  Other worlds may have it, but it is not clear if it can be produced as a propulsion mass from those worlds.

So, I guess this looks good for Earth/Luna<>Mars/Phobos/Deimos.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-30 07:54:10)

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Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,821

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I think I want to express the obvious.  The Moon and Mercury do not have significant atmospheric weather due to a lack of atmosphere that would support it.  So, it's solar energy will be "Clockwork".  The same can be said for many other moons and the asteroids.

Mercury is equivalent to Mars in materials inventory, except for Nitrogen, although it might have some.

So, when space efforts expand outward from LEO, there could be many worlds of interest.

But now I am very interested in LEO.  It is suggested that significant economic value will come from it, and that will be "Wired" to the surface economy of Earth, just like satellites already are.

Raw materials for this of course may come from Earth itself, but I don't think it would be that hard to bring more from our Moon and perhaps some of the asteroids.

If the Neumann Drive and other methods work out, it should be possible to avoid a Kessler Syndrome.

So, Space stations will seem to be likely to be a big thing.

Over time stations in other locations may occur, especially if shielding materials can be had from the Moon and perhaps asteroids.

I am betting that landings on Mars will happen prior and during the expansion of space stations in the solar system, but to make an interplanetary economy space stations could be very important.

It seems that Mercury could be the internal bound of such an economy, and I think that the Asteroid belt will be the outer bound for some time.  Since Callisto materials will be very similar to what is thought to be in the asteroid belt, I think that Jupiter will be the likely outer bound of such an economy, with its Trojans perhaps being included in that economy and Callisto and other moons left out.

Within these boundaries are worlds with weather and those that do not have atmospheric weather.  Pretty much Venus, Earth, and Mars are worlds where weather interferes with solar.  All other worlds have "Clockwork Solar Energy".

Even in the Trojan asteroids, have dim solar energy, concentrating mirrors are possible to correct for that.

Of course this table is easier to read inside the article the link leads to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunlight
Quote:

Intensity in the Solar System

Sunlight on Mars is dimmer than on Earth. This photo of a Martian sunset was imaged by Mars Pathfinder.
Different bodies of the Solar System receive light of an intensity inversely proportional to the square of their distance from Sun.

A table comparing the amount of solar radiation received by each planet in the Solar System at the top of its atmosphere:[26]

Planet or dwarf planet    distance (AU)    Solar radiation (W/m2)
Perihelion    Aphelion    maximum    minimum
Mercury    0.3075    0.4667    14,446    6,272
Venus    0.7184    0.7282    2,647    2,576
Earth    0.9833    1.017    1,413    1,321
Mars    1.382    1.666    715    492
Jupiter    4.950    5.458    55.8    45.9
Saturn    9.048    10.12    16.7    13.4
Uranus    18.38    20.08    4.04    3.39
Neptune    29.77    30.44    1.54    1.47
Pluto    29.66    48.87    1.55    0.57

The values for Jupiter are likely to work for Trojans.

One reason for going to Mars is, it is thought that a million people on Mars may be able to continue on even if the Earth ceases to be functional in space.  I feel that a distribution of a million people in such a trading realm, may be able to maintain contact with each other, and may actually increase the chances.  But of course, there would be no reason to limit this to 1 million people.

So, such an emergence may be of greater value than just Mars.  But of course, I think Mars is likely to be a very big item.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-30 11:38:16)

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Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,821

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I have had thoughts about Mercury and Cyclers.

The difficulty of getting to and from Mercury could be assisted by cyclers.

If a space station were placed into the "L2" for Mercury, if that is stable, then that station could communicate materially with cyclers which are associated with other planets such as Earth.

The Station, and the Cyclers should be intended to be very hardened from the harsh environment and having very powerful life support systems.

To get these Stations and Cyclers in place gravity assists will be valuable.  And of course, solar energy may be helpful.

In order to move a spaceship(s), Earth/Moon<>Cyclers<>Mercury(L2), I would expect the use of nuclear propulsion and that craft to have as little dry mass as is practical.

I presume that Nuclear would involve Hydrogen or Argon.  Argon might be available from Mercury, but it is thought that Hydrogen would be.  I suppose it might be possible to use CO2, (I am ignorant of success of that thing), If you screwed the transit up, then you likely would die.

If you think about it though, if an airplane takes off, and has an unrecoverable mechanical mishap, then also the people on that can die as well.  (And they do).

Once the Mercury(L2) station was in place, I presume an effort would be made to be able to supply it materials from Mercury.

Over time, even the cyclers may switch from materials of Earth/Moon to Mercury.  And materials from Mercury could certainly use solar power to move materials from Mercury to the cyclers.

Of course, it may still be desired to get materials from Earth/Moon/asteroids.  It may be that Nitrogen can come from Venus.

Well anyway that is as far as I got with this.

But I will point out that to get the cyclers in place, you have the gravity of Earth/Moon, Venus, and Mercury as engines.  The opportunities for such boosts are much more often than for cyclers for Earth/Moon<>Mars.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-30 12:41:49)

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