Jupiters Realms

SpaceNut · 2021-11-21 10:20:13

The longer the approach time is inside of the jovian system the higher that REM count will be even in the ship you are getting there in.

Void · 2021-11-21 10:43:01

I am interested.

Caliban,

The GCR is protected for for Europa, and maybe Io? How about Ganymede and Callisto?

Spacenut how about cycling spaceships to escort protected ships through the fields for most of the way?

All of the gas giant plants are behind the solar snow line, even Jupiter.

How about protective "Ice Boxes". That is envelopes built primarily of water ice?

I guess a more proper term is "Frost Line".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frost_lin … physics%29
Quote:

Frost line (astrophysics)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigationJump to search
In astronomy or planetary science, the frost line, also known as the snow line or ice line, is the particular distance in the solar nebula from the central protostar where it is cold enough for volatile compounds such as water, ammonia, methane, carbon dioxide, and carbon monoxide to condense into solid ice grains.
Each volatile substance has its own snow line (e.g. carbon monoxide,[1] nitrogen,[2] and argon[3]), so it is important to always specify which material's snow line is meant. A tracer gas may be used for materials that are difficult to detect; for example diazenylium for carbon monoxide.
The term is borrowed from the notion of "frost line" in soil science.

I had previously been interested in the value of Jupiter's magnetic field for space habitats to be embedded in it. I was thinking of locations like Calisto, or a bit more out from Jupiter. But "Ice Boxes" would grant more protection, so that perhaps Calisto and Ganymede might become accessible.

Sources of raw materials could then be Calisto, Ganymede, the Trojans, and the Asteroids, maybe even the terrestrials, but I think it would
be likely to get most locally.

An "Ice Box" would largely be composed of water ice, but could include fiber in the ice, to make it a bit like Pykrete.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pykrete

There would be no reason why you could not coat the ice with some substance that would render the ice even more stable.

And contrary to what most people might think, I think that solar could be the energy source. Simply use thin solar concentrating mirrors.
That may even be possible at Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto>Kuiper belt. Of course best options are at Jupiter.

One may use Chevron walls, so that heat can escape from the "Box", but impactors are dealt with to some degree, and also radiation is impeded, and sunlight can enter the box.

And so, you could have spacecraft and spinning habitats inside of the "Ice Box".

Then some of these could have orbits that are a multiple of either Calisto, or Ganymede.

Someday, maybe even for Europa and Io. Most likely only mining robots for Io.

Done.

It is so hard to get an image of the Chevron coverings for the windows of an O'Neil Cylinder!

OK, what is bellow with all the arrow pointers. Imagine that what you want to allow to pass or want to block can be strongly controlled
by the structure below. Sunlight, impactors, and radiation passing downward on this page.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Ideally only Sunlight getting through to this sentence.

Of course the geometry of the wall made of chevrons is not actually perfect as per engineering.

It is possible that if you query for "Chevron" something will turn up on this site. I did deal with it previously in some post.

Done.

https://www.encyclopedia.com/science/ne … spacecraft
Quote:

A champion of the cycling spaceship idea is the Apollo 11 astronaut Buzz Aldrin. Aldrin's vision is to have large cycling spaceships swinging permanently between the orbits of Earth and Mars. A cycling spacecraft in an elliptical orbit would transit from Earth to Mars and back again, permanently cycling between the orbits of the two planets. This approach could be used to put in place an interplanetary passenger transport system.

Of course we cannot likely use an "Ice House" cycling space structure sunward of the Frost Line. However it should be OK for many of "Jupiter's Realms".

It could be that huge populations may exist in orbit of Jupiter and the other Gas/Ice Giants.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-11-21 12:45:34)

Void · 2021-11-21 11:26:09

I guess I could amend my just previous post.

You could, perhaps use an "Ice Box", closer to the sun than the "Frost Line", but you would have to include an effective and reliable sun shade method.

So, going forward in time, perhaps there could be huge enclosures cycling from Earth to ?, providing hospitality support to spaceships and habitats enclosed within.

But not for a while I would think.

Mars, Ceres, and Callisto could provide the ice, I guess, maybe Earth>Hydrogen/Moon>Oxygen.

Done.

Terraformer · 2021-11-21 13:13:22

I don't think solar can be ruled out until you reach maybe Saturn. There's nothing that would stop large concentrating structures being build in space, with power beamed down by microwave to surface settlements. As I said elsewhere, Earth is uniquely ill suited to beamed power, because the land is already being used by creatures that we don't want to fry. But Ganymede has plenty of land for building rectenna arrays, and no birds flying over it or ramblers rambling on it to boil under a 10kW/m^2 flux.

But maybe Io has transuranics?

Void · 2021-11-21 16:42:25

Hi Terraformer,

So good to see you here again. Korov was very optimistic about solar energy. Time will tell.

I fear that yes a mirror will suffer attrition from impactors, and have to be rebuilt. Also accuracy of the surface is a problem.

But we will see.

Like you I feel that solar for the Jupiter system, is probably do-able. For Saturn, ?

We can hope that by that time Fusion or some advance fission will be available, or something else?

But with the terrestrials, and the Jupiter Realms, and just possibly Saturn, that's a lot of stuff

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-11-21 16:43:45)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-01-02 10:41:31

Jupiter Clipper mission is scheduled to launch in October 2024 aboard a Falcon Heavy

https://www.teslarati.com/spacex-falcon … n-mission/

https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/07 … ain-price/

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-04-22 06:34:31

NASA's Lucy mission is a 'go' for solar array deployment attempt

https://phys.org/news/2022-04-nasa-lucy … array.html

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-05-02 09:24:00

Potential For Shallow Liquid Water On Jupiter's Moon Europa, Study Suggests

https://www.independent.co.uk/space/jup … 60866.html

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-03-25 06:15:51

In Photos: NASA Spacecraft In Super-Close Flyby Of Jupiter’s Volcanic Moon Io
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamiecarte … c-moon-io/

At Jupiter, JUICE and Clipper Will Work Together in Hunt for Life
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti … -for-life/

JUICE Payload
https://sci.esa.int/web/juice/-/50073-science-payload

JANUS - Camera system ASI, Italy. MAJIS - Moons and Jupiter Imaging Spectrometer, CNES, France. UVS - UV imaging Spectrograph NASA, USA. SWI - Sub-millimeter Wave Instrument DLR, Germany. GALA - GAnymede Laser Altimeter, DLR, Germany. RIME - Radar for Icy Moons Exploration ASI, Italy. J-MAG - A magnetometer instrument for JUICE UKSA, United Kingdom. PEP - Particle Environment Package, SNSB, Sweden. RPWI - Radio & Plasma Wave Investigation, SNSB, Sweden. 3GM - Gravity & Geophysics of Jupiter and Galilean Moons, ASI, Italy. PRIDE - Planetary Radio Interferometer & Doppler Experiment, NWO and NSO, The Netherlands.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-04-08 17:54:33

ESA will intentionally crash Juice into Ganymede to end the mission -- unless it finds signs of life there.
https://www.planetary.org/articles/juic … on-preview

Jupiter missions: Past, present and future
https://www.space.com/jupiter-missions-brief-history

Europa Clipper, like NASA's Juno mission before it, will adopt an elliptical orbit that takes it far out from Jupiter and the planet's intense radiation for most of the time. Clipper will sail in for a close approach to Europa and then back out, over and over again, for nearly 50 flybys of the ocean moon. This will allow the spacecraft to pass over a different part of Europa each time to survey the entire surface.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-04-11 02:55:41

Guiding JUICE to Jupiter
https://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Guid … r_999.html

This phenomenal endeavour, led by the European Space Agency, is powered by Airbus technology. Our engineers have rarely faced a greater challenge than enabling such a journey. The JUICE probe will encounter extreme temperatures, intense radiation and decreasing solar energy during its 5 billion kilometre journey. Being self-sufficient in energy generation and storage is key to the mission's success.
Operating in the outer reaches of the solar system, far from the Sun, JUICE uses large solar arrays around the size of a badminton court - 85 m2 - to generate energy.
Divided into ten panels each measuring 2.5x3.5m, JUICE's solar wings will produce energy during its long journey to Jupiter. The solar energy will enable JUICE to carry out 35 fly-bys of Europa, Ganymede and Callisto and generate the 800 watts of power needed to operate the ten scientific instruments on board.
Airbus manufactured the panel structures and the deployment mechanism. Both have been subjected to robust testing to ensure they are ready to face the extremes of temperature the mission will encounter, from -230C at Jupiter up to +110C during Venus flyby, the hottest surface of the spacecraft reaching +250C.

Jupiter: The fascinating Europa moon, NASA's next challenge
https://www.lemonde.fr/en/science/artic … 22_10.html
With the departure of its Europa Clipper probe

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-04-14 11:08:30

Looks like ESA Jupiter mission 'Juice' is on its way, one of many designs considered Jupiter Planetary Orbiter (JPO), a Jupiter Magnetospheric Orbiter (JMO) and a Jupiter Europa Orbiter (JEO), and may be even an Europa lander once considered including a joint JIMO Nuclear mission, budget cuts ended these missions but they were considered too important to cancel by both NASA and ESA.

Now there is Juice and Clipper.

Europe's Jupiter probe launched
https://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Euro … t_999.html

When the probe finally enters Jupiter's orbit in July 2031, its 10 scientific instruments will analyse the Solar System's largest planet as well as its three icy moons Europa, Ganymede and Callisto.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-04-30 04:46:27

'What are the prospects for life on the icy moons Europa and Enceladus'?

https://www.shiningscience.com/2023/04/ … n-icy.html

NASA JPL continues working on Clipper, ESA interplanetary spacecraft that was launched on 14 April 2023 from Guiana Space Centre in the French Guiana but Work continues to deploy Juice RIME antenna. JUICE will pass through the asteroid belt twice, flyby of the asteroid 223 Rosa has been proposed, Gravity assists include Interplanetary transfer (Earth, Venus, Earth, Earth)

The Europa Imaging System Narrow-Angle Camera has arrived at NASAJPL
for integration onto our spacecraft! It will reveal the surface of Europa like never before, providing resolution as fine as half a meter per pixel – and in color and stereo!
https://twitter.com/EuropaClipper/statu … 0582087681

ESAJuice deployment status update: our 16 m-long ice-penetrating RIME antenna is not yet fully deployed as planned. Work is ongoing to resolve an issue currently preventing it from being released from its mounting bracket.
https://twitter.com/ESA_JUICE/status/16 … 1955772417

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-05-16 07:00:52

Juno’s upcoming encounter with Io

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oMDd7rAeHw

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-08-03 10:24:16

setting up colonies and Terraforming is some time away but for now some more news from NASA and ESA

Two more ESAJuice instruments are working in space and have delivered their first data
https://twitter.com/ESA_JUICE/status/16 … 5094959104

The team is currently working on installing the PIMS instrument, which will help us understand Europa's internal ocean!
https://twitter.com/EuropaClipper/statu … 1937687552

Calliban · 2023-08-10 02:53:37

Amongst other news, large concentrations of hydrogen peroxide have been detected on Ganymede.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hnDBU_8r2_o

There are likely other oxygenated species present as well, such as diatomic oxygen and ozone. If future humans can warm the moon up, the H2O2 will decay into oxygen and the other oxygen species will gas off. The moon will then support a thin oxygen atmosphere that will shield the surface against Jupiter radiation. I think the liklihood is that the atmosphere would be no thicker than that of Mars. But it would still offer substantial protection.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-08-16 07:39:39

NASA’s Europa Probe Gets a Hotline to Earth

https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/nasas-eur … e-to-earth

Void · 2023-08-20 11:56:41

I start with this: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 52#p212752
Quote:

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 6,992
Email
Setting up a supply route with departure Asteroids or from a Mars colony seems like a very logical step. Also perhaps nations or space agency would consider use of the Lagrange points and to set up a solar system wide communication system could be done during a study of Jupiter Trojans. Perhaps a reactor would be parked on an Asteroid or Satellite in Orbit of an Asteroid or maybe as a spot to relay communication, setting up an interconnected e-mail and radio as Jupiter is on the opposite side of the Sun. It is thought you can make plastics at these Asteroids, rich in Tholins or Hydrocarbons as speculated when New Horizons studied another body 'Arrokoth'. The Trojan Asteroids might be more Comet like than Irony Asteroids, they are in orbit at Jupiter's stable Lagrange points: either L4, existing 60° ahead of the planet in its orbit, or L5, 60° behind. I know JWST makes great pretty pictures that show it can to more stunning images than Hubble but perhaps using JWST Spectroscopy to study these Asteroids would be of great help to future colonization of the Solar system, some of the Trojans families were found in the early 1900s from telescope on Earth and somehow JWST even managed to study Jupiter even though it was thought to be 'Too Bright' so the Torjans should be well within the abilities of JWST, the Asteroid 'Hektor' is the largest 225 km or 139.8 miles in Diameter, the Asteroids might contain anhydrous silicates, or possibly compositions with water ice, there is speculation of the presence of organics in these Asteroids, they might be closer to the composition to Comets or they may have magnesium-rich silicates, they are an unknown as of today but the Trojans could help support the Jupiter system.

'Juno' is currently in orbit and soon there will be both a ESA and NASA mission en-route, both dedicated to study of the Moons. We have a number of Jupiter/Galilean-satellite threads on newmars

Spacedaily had an interesting article

The Road to Jupiter: Two decades of trajectory optimization
https://www.spacedaily.com/reports/The_ … n_999.html
The intricate multi-body dynamic environment stemming from Jupiter and its four prominent Galilean moons complicates trajectory design and optimization. Coupled with the formidable radiation surrounding Jupiter and spacecraft's limited fuel, these challenges necessitate advanced and intricate design solutions.
1
Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,032
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I don't want to offend the "Old Guard" by taking over this thread. I kind of am thing Pykrete for places 3 AU or more.
I may discuss that more in Terraforming.
Done.
Last edited by Void (Today 12:51:18)

Last edited by Void (2023-08-20 11:58:22)

Void · 2023-08-20 12:00:35

Well, with extreme efforts, I think Pykrete could be use in the orbits of Mars and on Mars itself.

But it is likely to be easier to sustain in the outer asteroid belt, Trojans, and Jupiter orbits as well.

It could certainly work wherever you have enough cold and water ice and Carbon, Hydrogen, and Oxygen. (Maybe a pinch of Nitrogen).

In the asteroid belt we should find all of those: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e … _asteroids
Image Quote:

The link has a wonderful table. A large assortment of asteroid types of significant size. Many are "C" which likely have lots of water, Carbon, and may also have minerals. Ceres is a "G" but that is very similar.

One might not choose Ceres. Maybe a smaller one.

This one interests me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_Hygiea

It seems possible that this one was smacked by something and then re-assembled. The leads me to hope that it was mixed with some core materials ending up closer to the surface than would be true for Ceres.

Still it may turn out that Ceres is the better choice. But Hygea, would possibly be very good for a space elevator. Even better than Ceres.

Time will tell. But the materials of the Asteroid belt, especially the outer asteroid belt have lots of icy objects, with significant Carbon. So, you could grow a lot of woody plant tissue with those chemicals.

Quote:

Pallas, Vesta and Ceres appear to be the only intact bodies from this early stage of planetary formation to survive within the orbit of Neptune.[21]

Vesta is rocky, but does seem to have some captured Carbonaceous material captured to its surface.

But I might want to have a look at Hygea as it appears to have been stirred and shaken.

We have a tendency to be upset about the dimness of the sunlight from 3 to 6 AU, but I think mirrors can handle that very well.

Calliban has speculated on water/ice balls, I think perhaps 50 kg in size that could have useful pressurization near their center. And that is good.

OK, think of this as more schematic than a picture:

So probably you could armor your Pykrete box with some foil to block light and sublimation, but starting in the asteroid belt and beyond is a massive number of makings for Pykrete structure.

Something to ponder.

An airlock of massive size might permit spaceships to enter the Pykrete Box for service and handling cargo.

It is all speculation and dreams, but a crude measure of possibility, I think.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-20 12:31:52)

Calliban · 2023-08-20 15:57:47

Hygiea is further from the sun than Ceres (semi major axis is 3.1415AU versus 2.77AU). That is good if you are interested in exporting ice for Martian terraforming applications, because it means less dV and more kinetic energy on impact with the atmosphere. Hygiea also has less mass, which implies less cost when lifting mass out of its gravity well. More important than either of these things, Hygiea has an orbital inclination of 3.8°. That compares to 9.65° for Ceres. This makes it easier to export stuff to the remainder of the solar system.

I'm not so sure about the efficacy of icecrete. It will take 1MJ to produce each kg of the stuff. And it isn't very strong in tension.

Void · 2023-08-20 19:30:57

Well, thanks for the additional evaluation Calliban.

My desire is to find a useful thing to do with excess ices and Carbon. Those can be found in several significant sized outer belt asteroids and also Callisto, and likely Ganymede.

Pykrete makes some sense as a protected envelope. Protection from radiation and smaller impactors.

The drawing indicated a cubic structure, but it could be cylindrical or spherical, and it could be wrapped in Tensile Carbon Structure.

I have several notions, I guess the idea would be to make a shell to surround a large number of habitation structures which might likely be made of metals and ceramics.

Around Jupiter, it might make a nice cycling spaceship for going deep into the radiation fields. If Ganymede were protected by an atmosphere and its magnetic field augmented artificially, the spacecraft could ride to a close pass inside of the Pykrete shell, and so then reduce the dose of radiation travel would impose.

But perhaps it is somewhat a thing still looking for more purpose.

You might make a giant slab of it and shoot loads from a mass driver from it for instance.

If you added magnetic effects perhaps you could slow down a load that would pass close to it. (Thats getting pretty SciFi though).

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-08-20 19:40:07)

Void · 2023-08-20 20:11:56

Alright continuing from the last post.............Lets dismantle the solar system!

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Is … &FORM=VIRE

Let's make Corrugated Sheets of Pykrete and other stuff.

Maybe a bit like Corrugated Cardboard: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrugated_fiberboard
Image Quote:

A flat sheet of Corrugated Pykrete, with the sunward side covered in very thin concentrating mirrors.

The rear facing side maybe only has a protective vapor barrier.

Although you have a vast array of concentrating mirrors, they are not 100% efficient, and the surface area of the Corrugated Pykrete may be a sufficient radiator for the energy intercepted.

This structure may be protective from hard radiation and may offer some protection from reasonably sized impactors. Within the cells of the Corrugated Pykrete may be hosted structures in part of metal and ceramics and plastics perhaps.

This is from elsewhere: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 09#p212709

The technique could be similar to this attempt:

Here is another try:
So, what I have in mind is antisolar panels on the outside of the Greenhouse, so that as heat leaks out of the greenhouse electricity will be generated. I do not intend that the greenhouse walls will be insulated. Just a pressure shell with Antisolar panels on its outsides.
The Pykrete needs to be at optimal temperature. I have attempted to provide pathways for infrared radiation coming off of the greenhouse to leak though the Pykrete shell, into the thin metal shell.
Only the greenhouse shell will be significantly pressurized.

The dream is to "Pipe" the sun's light into greenhouses and to use the waste heat from the greenhouses to generate electricity, by rejecting the heat to the universe from the Pykrete some how. Actually the mirrors could double as radiators under some conditions as well.

So, as we go outwards in the solar system we can make use of the H2, O2, C, N2 ect. Make water ice and grow wood for the Pykrete.
And I suppose build from Carbon as well, and of course metals and ceramics.

From what I can see the Asteroid has many giant frozen mud-balls that could be used. And Callisto as well. Then as you go out further, you have to get the ice off from moon cores so that you can mine those moon cores. This way you have a structural use for the ices which are the equivalent of overburden in mining.

What do you think?

Done.

This might be considered a child of this: https://www.sciencealert.com/could-huma … anet-ceres Image Quote:

Finlander Valhalla! Maybe Heaven in the Heavens? Not quite I am sure, but still nice for humans maybe, if they make it nice.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-08-20 20:35:30)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-09-13 10:10:32

A Portrait of Planet and Moon: NASA’s Juno Mission Captures Jupiter and Io Together

https://www.missionjuno.swri.edu/news/a … n-captures

Calliban · 2023-10-02 06:59:11

On the origins of molecular oxygen on Ganymede.
https://arxiv.org/pdf/2205.01659

There is discussion of frozen O2, presumably in polar regions, and clathrates containing O2, CO2 and SO2. There is no discussion of how much oxygen might be present. Could we eventually produce an O2 atmosphere by heating up the surface ices? How thick would such an atmosphere be? Would it be a microbar atmosphere, millibar, or could it even be dense enough to be breathable? To produce a 140mbar O2 atmosphere, which is would be a minimal requirement for breathing, there would need to be some 10 tonnes of O2 present per m2 of surface. That seems unlikely, unless the O2 is trapped in ice to a depth of many km. But even a 1mbar atmosphere would be useful in shielding out Jupiter radiation and shielding against meteor impacts. It would make living there a lot easier.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-10-02 07:02:16)

Void · 2023-10-02 11:45:26

I have been thinking off and on about turning radiation into an asset in the Jupiter system. I am not entirely sure I know what I am doing though.

As far as energy, I anticipate that trough solar concentrators on the ground might work rather well. Low gravity may make sun following practical. If some method of thawing of the subsurface to make bodies of water were possible then indeed gasses might be emitted to make a thicker atmosphere.

Of course energy from orbit might be "Piped" in as well, I suppose.

Ganymede dose have a magnetic field.

If you could get a significant atmosphere, you might want to augment the magnetic field to protect the atmosphere and humans. But you might want to let some of the radiation in somehow to split molecules in the atmosphere.

I think that happens for Mars, where small amounts of CO and O2 exist. I have wanted to turn that into a resource. I would like to know if that is going to work better on Ganymede than Mars. In such a case, the molecules from radiation might become a resource.

I have wondered if shells containing gasses could be placed in deep radiation belts to do similar.

But that is about all I have on it.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-10-02 12:18:10)

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