Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void · 2023-03-16 10:18:38

So, I went to bed last night thinking about Venus and the contents of the previous post.

I have this query: "Mining the atmosphere of Venus"

It fetched this anyway: https://space.stackexchange.com/questio … atmosphere
Image Quote:
They are thinking of a Cloud City, which is also an option.

I however am focusing on orbital harvesting of the atmosphere of Venus.

There is a video in the previous post that includes mention of it and also how to include ionized atmospheric gasses into a magnetic field.

Atmosphere Breather:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospher … propulsion

So, I think chances are that the atmosphere of Venus could be minded from orbit. Perhaps using counterrotating tether methods.

The atmosphere may or may not have enough Nitrogen at that level for similar function as for Earth.

If gasses can be collected, then other methods of propulsion could be shooting CO2 ice out with a Mass Driver system, and perhaps an Oxygen Mass Driver. Carbon and Nitrogen and Argon might be of particular value.

Probably such a system would work with cloud cities, and it might even be possible to have robots bring regolith up from the surface to the cloud cities and then up to orbit.

And likely this would be in trade with other worlds.

Maybe magnetic Carbon? https://physicsworld.com/a/the-magnetism-of-carbon/
Quote:

The magnetism of carbon
03 Nov 2004
Carbon is about to join the list of ferromagnetic elements, but the origins of its magnetic properties remain a mystery

So, I don't know if it would be suitable for a Mass Driver or not. It is a Maybe then.

But if Magnetic Carbon were possible, it might be embedded in dry ice loads to eject with a Mass Driver, and so then may be assistive for a method of space propulsion.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-03-16 10:35:10)

Void · 2023-03-16 16:33:35

For Earth LEO, space junk is of course a problem with such platforms, but if you can scoop up atmosphere, it might be worth it to fix that problem by removing the worst problems and by making your platform able to survive the hazards, and to not shed materials much.

That's all.

Done.

Void · 2023-03-18 11:00:13

Moving to Mars: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 67#p207767

Quote:

Here is a new emerging skill, level of benefit, not yet defined.
MARCH 17, 2023
Carbon dioxide electrolysis as an alternative to coal
by Forschungszentrum Juelich
https://techxplore.com/news/2023-03-car … -coal.html
n the current experimental set-up using modular components which are not optimized for efficiency, the stack achieves an efficiency of 30%. "For this type of process, which already operates below 100°C, it is already a quite promising result," explains Institute Director Prof. Rüdiger-A. Eichel.
"Compared to high-temperature co-electrolysis, for example, plant design is relatively simple and produced pure CO instead of synthesis gas which further simplifies processing for many applications. Thus, a decentral supply of the platform chemical CO can be provided to the industrial companies in the Rhenish region, saving transport cost," says Rüdiger-A. Eichel. The next steps are further developments and improvements in efficiency to bring the cell stack to the final stage of readiness for mass production.
I will consider it odd if the members do not like it. I have not specified the energy source, solar, wind, nuclear, other?
My feeling is that we might want to look into it for Mars as well.
I would hesitate to include this material as it is not the historical assessment of probability for the moons of Mars, but it comes from NASA.
Mars Moons: (Carbon in the Martian moons)
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/moons/mars … 20diameter.
The moons appear to be made of carbon-rich rock mixed with ice and may be captured asteroids.
I am going to copy this into a terraforming topic and expand on the Mars aspect more.
Done.

The current ships designed to go to Mars often include Methalox as the propulsion method. This then requires mining ice a large quantities.

But to work on Mars, I wonder if CO & O2 are the better choices? For instance, you can obtain the chemical CO2 virtually anywhere on Mars, and also it seems likely Carbon and Oxygen from the Martian moons.

For various reasons you would not be likely to do this for Earth, but on Mars, we are more concerned about down-mass than up-mass.

We also need a means of transport of minerals and equipment. A sub-orbital robotic craft for that might make sense.

You would likely have significant bases where bulk raw materials would exist, but you might want small quantities of something, that it may be practical to transport by such ships.

I see Starship as a potential transport of lots of people, but for bulk machinery and bulk materials, electric rockets might do the job, delivering to Martian orbit, perhaps by Ballistic Capture, and then all you would need is a ship that would go up with little cargo and come down with lots of cargo.

It is not certain that CO2 could be cooked out of the Martian moons, but it is more likely than for accessible water to be in the moons as ice.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-03-18 11:09:28)

Void · 2023-03-18 12:38:25

This post may connect to the just previous post.

The Angry Astronaut gave this video: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheAngryAstron … n_mars_in/

I should have thought of it before, but if using CO & O2 propulsion, you could get your propellants on top of the four high mountains of the Tharsis rise.

My point being that if you had a type of ship like that it could jump to the top of such a mountain and then refill with propellants to then jump to orbit. If the moons of Mars would provide or if the atmosphere of Mars could be mined from orbit, then you could then refill in low Martian orbit.

These mountains being at a high elevation and near the equator, can give the largest amount of free planetary spin energy to a launch to orbit.

Done.

It is still in my mind that if you could land a Starship with nuclear reactors in it, it could immediately begin cooking up resources from the Atmosphere. Oxygen and CO, maybe Argon and Nitrogen if those would be of use.

Of course, then there could be a radiation hazard for humans, but then that is a problem to solve.

I am sure there are several solutions.

And I am wondering if a surface hopper could be landed without cargo, using CO and Oxygen. Then that would be available right away for moving about the surface. Could it ascend to orbit if refilled? I don't know.

Seems like it should be able.

Complicated and perhaps to be unloved, could you have a three tank Starship? Two Tanks for Methane on the way to Mars, and use one tank for Methane and one for CO on the way back from Mars. We expect to send less people back and also little cargo goes back.

Of course, then you need at least two in space CO engines. Redundancy.

So, then you have to cook up much less Methane for launch to orbit. Path to Earth then is CO. But I am not sure if CO can do the Hohmann Transfer to Earth upon arrival.

Tanks may not be big enough if using CO. Anyway, something to think about.

If you need massive amounts of water then you cannot likely mine the ice until humans get there. Then you have a time duration where, things have to work right. And all that could interfere with science and also set up of the base.

I think consideration of cooking CO and O2 in landed ships with nuclear reactors should be considered.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-03-18 13:11:57)

Void · 2023-03-19 11:47:03

I justify some of my posts to terraforming, as valid as you probably have to have the tools to access Mars and for humans and their machines to function on Mars if you hope to terraform it. (Also, I get left to my devices here more, as there seem to be more permissions).

A shift in my thinking lately is about water and CO propulsions. We have our pointer on the mid-latitude ice slabs, because water is necessary, and those were thought to be the source of water closest to the equator.

I will make note however that those ice slabs very likely hide useful mineral resources. So, now if you make your base on one of those, you have to bring minerals in from far away, unless you can either find the minerals under the ice slabs or move enough water to mineral locations hundreds of miles away. The poles are too cold to start on and they also likely hide the minerals, and make the inaccessible.

What we should want is enough water, and lots of minerals at hand local, as much as is possible.

It is starting to look like the Rift Valley System may be what we want. It is warmer. It is likely that Hydrogen compounds can be had, and minerals are exposed. And of course solar energy is also available, to some degree with the exception of dust storm periods.

"The Angry Astronaut" has produced Video's about such.

This is one recent one: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheAngryAstron … n_mars_in/
He mentions a possible glacier, and some minerals.

This however does seem possible as well, Hydrogen in Candor Chaos: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne … 180979267/

In any case with the probable existence of advanced robots to be available, and the potential for a hopper spacecraft, I again suggest the use of CO and O2 for hopping about on Mars. Such could bring in Liquid Hydrogen from a source to a mineral deposit, and could also carry minerals out to a major base where water is available.

Some mineral deposits would need little water for humans as most of the labor would be done with robot/avatars.

That is what I think now.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-03-19 12:00:02)

Void · 2023-03-20 19:52:08

About outer belt asteroids with water and organics: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 09#p207909

The distance ~3.2 AU is likely to allow mirrors to make solar useful at those distances, so power and also a range of materials.

Looks pretty good for spin gravity worlds and such to me.

Done

Void · 2023-03-27 20:29:11

Well, I am going to do a transplant from another topic, as I want to leave room for Calliban to take that topic where he wants to in the future. I feel I have a direction to take it to here.

Callibans topic: "Index» Terraformation» Colonizing / terraforming small asteroids"
Post# 258: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 73#p207873
Including following posts up to;
Post# 275: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 02#p208002
For the last post we have this quote, which I think is very important:

Well, maybe it is ok to put this here:
"Building Bricks on the Moon from Potatoes, Fraser Cain"
https://www.bing.com/search?q=Building+ … A0&PC=U531
Quote:
Building Bricks on the Moon from Potatoes
4.5K views · 9 hours ago
YouTubeFraser Cain
I presume this could probably apply to asteroid regolith.
Done.

The ability to cement regolith together with organic glues could well apply to materials from asteroids. Granted such a concrete substitute, will have much better compressive strength than tensile strength, but enclosures of it could be encased in a web of tensile materials on its outside.

Then on the inside, air and moisture holding methods could be applied, such as a layer of plastic or foil film.

Historically the notion for asteroids is to get water and precious metals from them to bring to ar near Earth.
Then also possibly it might make sense to build something from metals like iron, but at the locations of the asteroids.

But what is now likely is that almost all or all of the materials of asteroids can be used on site, with the possibility of perhaps transferring small amounts of metals and maybe water to other locations.

To some extent the activity would be protective to Earth and perhaps also to other planets.

Mass Driver propulsions may be possible and may at times be a good choice, but we have the possibility of Photons to push the habitations built from NEO's. This could be sails in the natural sunlight, but we also may begin to develop laser systems to push such objects and perhaps ship between such objects and the worlds of the solar system.

Methods to sail on the solar wind may also be useful, and again lasers may assist, as you could increase the power density using lasers, so that you would need less mass in the energy generation system used.

This is not a deviation from Mars, as Lasers may come from the Earth/Moon or Mars/Phobos/Deimos, or from power stations built from asteroids.

We can keep in mind that some asteroids are Earth crossing, and some NEO's extend from near Earth to beyond Mars, and into the asteroid belt proper, and then to the Hilda asteroids, and then the Jupiter Trojans.

And eventually Callisto can be an object of some promise as well.

If we can have closable enclosures to put small asteroids into, then we more or less "Bag" them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clam
Image Quote:

And Calliban and others have considered "Wrapping" an asteroid" before so this is related to that.

As I see it, if we have a "Coin-Purse", "Clam-Like" bag to put the asteroid in, we can put a small gravitation on the pile of dirt and spin a habitat object from it for greater spin gravity if that has utility. I will make a picture.

Ok, I have technical problems for pictures just now.

Just imagine a sock full of dirt, with a cable extending from it's top rim, and where a object like a starship or other ship might be anchored to. Now the dirt pile in the sock has a collective up and down that allows you to burrow into the rubble and put habitats and facilities into, pushing the regolith up the sock's ankle.

As for radiation protection, you have the regolith and may also use a magnetic bubble. The magnetic bubble can also be used to push the package outwards in orbits, and hopefully to eventually cross paths at a gentile relative speed with yet another asteroid.

Your small larger g force module/starship/ship, at the end of the tether, might be pulled in periodically like an elevator, or maybe you would have an elevator method to transfer things between the sock bag, and the higher g module.

Radiation protection for the high g module might involve masses of water extracted from the regolith or imported from elsewhere. The propulsive magnetic field will also help with radiation protection.

So, this is an attempt to give a complete life support method with a minimal start, but something that can be expanded as more and more asteroid materials are connected to, and utilized.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-03-27 21:09:56)

Void · 2023-03-28 18:47:01

I have been looking into "Water on Stony Asteroids". I am very surprised to find that "S" asteroids (Stony), may have considerable water.

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/wat … 20Advances.
Quote:

Water has been found in the dust of an asteroid thought to be bone-dry.
By Lisa Grossman
MAY 1, 2019 AT 2:00 PM
For the first time, evidence of water has been found in a stony type of asteroid once thought to be bone-dry.
Grains of dust from the asteroid Itokawa actually contain a surprising amount of water, two cosmochemists from Arizona State University in Tempe report May 1 in Science Advances.

Image Quote:
Quote:

PEANUT IN THE SKY Asteroid Itokawa (shown in this image from Japan’s Hayabusa spacecraft) was thought to be devoid of water. But scientists studying grains of dust returned by the craft in 2010 found trace amounts of the substance.
JPL-NASA

A big follow-up question may be what is in the interior of these asteroids? Hydrogen embrittles metals, so we might suppose that these rubble piles being very porous, perhaps Hydrogen is embedded in the interior rocks and dust as well.

Even for some if cool enough perhaps a buildup of frost or even ice.

These objects only being in the gravity well of the sun and the galaxy, and not of a planet, if they have the right materials, they may be quite an asset. At this point I am beginning to think that the "M" asteroids may be the least valuable

There are at least two processes which may process stony asteroid materials.

The European machine that may work for Lunar regolith, and the new process from Blue Origin which may make solar panels from Lunar regolith.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-03-28 19:02:50)

Void · 2023-03-29 10:32:05

So, so far we cannot think of stony asteroids as wet, but at least they may bring some water to the party.

And depending on their collision history, they may have a minority content of Carbonaceous materials.

Eventually it may be possible to move lots volatile materials from the outer belt to more inner solar system places.

But for now it may be that a mixture of asteroid types, and the conservation of water and Carbon and Nitrogen may be important.

I have considerable respect for the creativity that arrived at this: https://newatlas.com/space/space-habitat-ring-plan/
Image Quote: ?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnewatlas-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2F0c%2Fe7%2F1bf75795423681c18b5f25c5abfd%2Ffea-asteroid-base.jpg

It is not wrong and it might be done in some cases, but I am after something that looks more like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_air_balloon
Image Quote:

Now that is only a shape, we are familiar with. Modify it so that asteroid materials are in the balloon, and the gondola swings around the balloon. The barycenter may be in the balloon itself as the mass of the gondola is to be much less than the mass of the balloon and it's asteroid contents.

Getting a spinning asteroid inside the balloon will be tricky, so for a little bit I will not dwell on that problem.

So, I am hoping that the gondola can start small and then be built up.

The bag of rubble is to only be subjected to a small amount of synthetic gravity, so that the bag does not have to be super strong.

But the containment of the bag and the small amount of gravity for the contents of the bag may make it more possible to sort out and access the materials in the bag for processing.

I don't want to overprocess this set of notions yet. It may well be that there are other directions to take.

To incorporate more asteroids, would you make a bundle?
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=bu … RE&first=1

So, that could be tricky as each asteroid has it's own spin. But not impossible.

So, if you start with a bag of rocks, perhaps you convert it into built materials inside the bag, and also some to go into upgrading the gondola. So, each bag eventually contains a sort of factory? Or a bag of parts.

So, some problems to solar other than how to transition into an asteroid in a bag with a gondola, is what is the power supply? Also, where do ships dock. Where are the farms?

Stuff like that. I am going to have some coffee and then get on with my day. Come back later, perhaps.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-03-29 11:15:39)

Void · 2023-03-29 19:00:23

So, I suppose I am working with asymmetric synthetic gravity devices.

Sort of a Earth and Moon simulation but with tensile structure to hold them together against the force of the spin.

Here is a version of the idea:

Other synthetic gravity machines that I am aware of seem to me to have been symmetrical.

Depending on what we learn about gravitation, maybe the gondola will start rather small with a solar storm shelter.

Also, I anticipate the use of magnetic bubble propulsion both to give some radiation protection and also to move the structure over time, to a different orbit(s).

If it is healthy then people may only need to be in the gondola some of the time to work out.

But that is a thing to be learned about.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-03-30 19:58:33)

Void · 2023-03-30 09:06:51

Just thinking about asteroids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteroid
Image quote:

I was not aware of the Hilda's Triangle. I thought Hildas were adjacent to the Trojans and Greeks, but apparently there is a third "Point" of them opposite of Jupiter in the Sun's gravitational field.

As for Mars, the diagram above seems to indicate that Mars should have had much more of impacts than Earth, perhaps especially relative to Earth. If Mars has not had much of the recycling of crust with tectonic plates, then I expect that heavy materials from asteroids may be of a larger accumulation to the upper portions of Mars, it's crust perhaps, than for Earth. I believe that there is a lot of Iron. Perhaps this could explain some loss of atmosphere, as more of it would be splashed off of Mars, and also if atmosphere and water substances join chemically with deposited asteroid cores, then that might suck astrosphere away into chemical solids as well.

Even Dr. Zubrin has suggested that asteroids could be next after Mars as an objective for humans.

As Phobos and Deimos resemble asteroids, I suggest that attaining Mars and the asteroids should be considered as a effort to group together.

"Asymmetric synthetic gravity devices", which I mention in the previous post, are not exactly new. I believe that centrifuges resembling it have been done by NASA on the ground for a long time to test humans for space flight.

People have at times suggested space elevators from Ceres for instance which to a degree is similar.

I believe that some recent Science Fiction has it that asteroids can be spun up to produce artificial gravity. But of course they would be likely to fly apart.

For asteroids, and particularly for rubble pile asteroids, if you put a "Shell" around them and then attach a space tether, then you may have a gondola with significant synthetic gravity. You may or may not add spin, if the shell can hold the rubble contents in place. For the shell, I anticipate you only want a useful level of synthetic gravity, to make working with the "Ore" more practical. It may be that you do not have to add spin at all. The "Ore" may or may not stick to the inside of the shell depending on the balance between actually gravitation of the asteroid, and the amount of spin and the distance from the main body of materials you may try to make stick to the shell/bag.

I have been thinking about microwaving the materials to deposit them to the Bag/Shell as a condensate. This could relate to technology for geothermal wells that is proposed.

Example: https://www.ornl.gov/news/using-fusion- … gy%20group. Quote:

Gyrotrons produce high-powered microwaves to heat up fusion plasmas. “If we are successful, this technology will allow power plants across the United States in any geographic area to produce electricity using geothermal steam, a carbon-free clean energy resource,” said Tim Bigelow, a scientist in ORNL’s Fusion Technology group.

As I recall, the rock vapors are supposed to be exhausted as dust blown out of the well, but some of it is to make a glassy condensate on the well walls.

I have been wondering how to deal with large chunks of rock. Busting them up would be hard. Melting them in a vat would also be troublesome but vaporizing them may work out. In the process it may also be possible to separate out certain materials. If some of the materials could be deposited on the original "Bag", without destroying it, then perhaps you could build up a "Shell" to keep the asteroid encased in. That could have utility, but of course I am not sure you would want to use it for high atmospheric pressures as it may not be very strong in tensile strength. You could wrap the outside with some tensile substances and put a stretchy film of some kind on the inside to improve it.

Anyway, some newer notions so half-baked. That is not a criticism. In order to bake something, you have to half-bake it first.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-03-30 10:15:55)

Void · 2023-03-30 19:55:42

So, I am thinking that you could start with a "Packman bag", and then as you built up the gondola, you would simultaneously fortify the bag, as greater and greater gravitational force simulation would be imposed on it and its contents.

Perhaps some method to do a vacuum deposition on the outside of the bag: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_de … structures. Quote:

Vacuum deposition is a group of processes used to deposit layers of material atom-by-atom or molecule-by-molecule on a solid surface. These processes operate at pressures well below atmospheric pressure (i.e., vacuum). The deposited layers can range from a thickness of one atom up to millimeters, forming freestanding structures.

So, then this shape could be initiated but also fortified as you consumed the regolith originally confined to the bag.

So, at first you would likely start with a small rubble pile of primarily Carbonaceous materials that may be 1% or more water, which is the estimate for Bennu and Ryugu.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteroidal_water

https://www.theguardian.com/science/202 … e-on-earth

Then having a lot of Carbon and some water, perhaps to intercept a stony asteroid, and process it. Such Stony asteroids may have more water than was previously expected.

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/wat … 20Advances. Quote:

For the first time, evidence of water has been found in a stony type of asteroid once thought to be bone-dry.
Grains of dust from the asteroid Itokawa actually contain a surprising amount of water, two cosmochemists from Arizona State University in Tempe report May 1 in Science Advances.

I have read that these asteroids may have more gold and such than the Earth's crust. But that would not be my goal.

Anyway if you made a facility from a rubble pile smaller than Bennu, and during its processing to maturity flew it to a stony asteroid, then you could move up to a larger scale.

I would anticipate the inclusion of humanoid robots along the line like Tesla Bot. This would allow more labor to be produced for the amount of life support available. So to get work done perhaps you would need only 10% of the water you might otherwise expect. Maybe 1%, who knows.

So, the idea might be to develop a method to convert dangerous asteroids into spaceships, essentially, and fly them away from being a threat to Earth, and at the same time develop processes that can work with asteroids in general.

Eventually getting to the outer belt where water will be a huge resource.

It may not be silly to think of moving water and other desired substances into the inner solar system in a massive amount.

Mass Drivers that shoot Oxygen or Magnetic Dust might be used. Developing methods to beam power to such ships with lasers may also be worth seeking, and so then make the possibility of sending such power beams into the asteroid belt from the more inner worlds, enabling the ships to power their Mass Drivers, without having giant and heavy solar panels.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-03-30 20:29:07)

Void · 2023-03-31 09:57:59

I am moving along in my thinking. I was considering a cone spinning end over end. You might keep building it larger at the flare end, but you need a way to get raw materials into it, if it is to grow. The entrance/containment/exit would likely be at the Barycenter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barycenter

I suppose I have inappropriately appropriated the concept of Barycenter as that apparently is two bodies bound by gravity and orbiting a common center. But it is similar, and will make a bit more sense as I go on. We could also call it the "Hub Null Point".

But if we keep extending the "Base" of the cone by building more onto it, then the barycenter moves which as well is inconvenient.

I came to think that two cones with bases joined by cables, might present a "entrance/containment/exit" between them and that could also be
the "Hub Null Point". This model is not perfect, as if you want to expand the cones, you have the problem of increasing the space between the two "Jaws". Spinning down periodically could do it, or some really powerful jacking method might work. It is not perfect. (Yet).

An alternative is to have two cylinders with a set of jaws between them. You could then build extensions on the cylinder ends but that is where the g forces are the most, and also you do not then make the Mouth bigger.

In the case of two cones, you are converting two asymmetrical spinners into a more or less somewhat symmetrical arrangement.

A way around the problem of mouth size is that the original set of cones can "Eat" a certain sized asteroid object, and then contribute to the building of another cone set, that is larger and so then has a larger mouth.

I think that the idea of cone structures is supported in nature by Limpets.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limpet
Image Quote:
Image Quote:

So, we might call each cone a "Limpet". But we may join two together somewhat like a clam, but standoffs between them will form a Mouth. It is not to be a two jaws chew situation, however amusing that could be to imagine. But the interior of the mouth will have the two base surfaces which can have a small amount of spin gravity. We do not want a lot, just a little. The "Ore" is drawn into this space and enclosing panel are deployed to close the "Mouth".

The object is coaxed to drop to one of the two floors. It may be that one jaw will be of one nature and the other of another nature for specialized purposes. We may also "Land" spaceships into this mouth.

So, as per "Ore" we now have a pile of rubble on one jaw surface, or perhaps a large boulder.

Another sort of drawing:

A is new Ore on a floor with very low gravity.
B is previous ore sorted and brought into a lower floor through a door.
C and D are factory spaces.
Light blue is human living space.
Dark Blue may be a water reservoir or whatever.

E is maximum spin gravity simulation.

Small stuff should be easy, but big chunks have to be broken up by conventional means, or perhaps in some cases with microwave beams as in drilling for geothermal.

That is some progress, I think.

Where are the greenhouses and cities? Not here, this is a mineral processing facility, and probably most labor is done with robots, with a few humans present. But you could have some farming of some sort.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-03-31 10:35:31)

Void · 2023-03-31 18:57:02

I will consider the previous post to have "Half Baked" the idea of dual Limpet "Robots" working together to have a collective mouth of some kind, to "Eat" very small asteroids. So, I will let it rest for a bit. I will be very happy for any improvements any person or intelligence can suggest.

But I am not done with Limpets, and I think that a robotic version would be just great for asteroids or small moons.

I have Phobos and Ceres in mind. And of course intermediate sized objects.

Itokawa comes to mind from this post: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 36#p208236
It has water in its surface materials, just some.

1036 Ganymed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1036_Ganymed
Image quote:
Quote:

Orbit of Ganymed (blue), with the inner planets and Jupiter (outermost).

It may be somewhat easy to reach from the Earth/Moon, and it appears to cross into the asteroid belt proper, which suggests to me that it may have collected some materials from "C" and "M" asteroids. Like Itokawa, it may have water from the solar wind as well. Maybe Hydrogen and Helium in its porous interior, if it has considerable rubble materials.
Image Quote: 001036-asteroid_shape_model_%281036%29_Ganymed.png
Quote:

Shape model of Ganymed from its lightcurve

Quote:

1036 Ganymed, provisional designation 1924 TD, is a stony asteroid on a highly eccentric orbit, classified as a near-Earth object of the Amor group. It was discovered by German astronomer Walter Baade at the Bergedorf Observatory in Hamburg on 23 October 1924, and named after Ganymede from Greek mythology.[1][2] With a diameter of approximately 35 kilometers (22 miles), Ganymed is the largest of all near-Earth objects but does not cross Earth's orbit. The S-type asteroid has a rotation period of 10.3 hours. In October 2024, it is predicted to approach Earth at a distance of 56,000,000 km; 35,000,000 mi (0.374097 AU).[15]

Amor Asteroids apparently do not cross the Earth's orbit but do dwell about the orbit of Mars: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amor_asteroid

433 Eros is another: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/433_Eros
Quote:
I either missed this or forgot it:

NEAR Shoemaker survey and landing
The NEAR Shoemaker probe visited Eros twice, first with a brief flyby in 1998, and then by orbiting it in 2000, when it extensively photographed its surface. On 12 February 2001, at the end of its mission, it landed on the asteroid's surface using its maneuvering jets.
This was the first time a Near Earth asteroid was closely visited by a spacecraft.[19]

The mission that visited 433 Eros: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEAR_Shoemaker
Image Quote:
Quote:

Eros from approximately 250 meters altitude (area in image is roughly 12 meters across). This image was taken during NEAR's descent to the surface of the asteroid.[11]

When thinking of stony asteroids typically they are dismissed as they do not have a lot of water or concentrated metals. But I am interested in them as the materials are likely as good as the average Moon materials.

And I feel that there "May Be" two processes that could make them more useful.
1) Adsorption of the solar wind into their regolith, and also water created by reactions with the solar wind.
2) Carbonaceous deposition of dust onto the asteroids.

This article supports #1: https://www.space.com/earth-water-solar-wind-asteroids
Quote:

"That strongly suggests that fine-grained dust, buffeted by the solar wind and drawn into the forming Earth billions of years ago, could be the source of the missing reservoir of the planet's water," Bland said.
But the research isn't just about Earth. The findings also suggest that water might be locked in the surface rocks of many space bodies, including the moon and asteroids, the researchers said in the statement. If so, this could be good news for future human exploration in deep space, as necessary supplies might be easier to find than scientists fear.

These articles support #2: https://www.zmescience.com/space/vesta- … %20surface.
https://www.universetoday.com/146528/sp … for-earth/
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1208/1208.2833.pdf

Vesta is thought to be volcanic and to have boiled off its water, but apparently the surface has collected useful stuff like water and Carbon.

So, I am going to argue that these worlds are objects of value in them selves.

The Europeans settled the America's, sometimes hoping for gold, but in the end even if gold was gotten, the long term importance was the settlements created. At least I can argue that. The gold changed things for a while. But now does not so much matter.

Asteroid mining is supposed to get water for propellants, and metals desired. This may happen. I am not opposed to it.

But now I have a stage to introduce a Limpet robot to.

I have indicated wheels (Black Color), but legs would be just fine for many situations. Arms both inside and outside to manipulate the environment.

A double walled shell into which regolith is put for weight and for thermal and radiation purposes as well.

I anticipate that most labor in these robots would be done with smaller robots perhaps humanoid and perhaps like Optimus.

Maybe a few humans on board.

Done.

Optimus is making good progress: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Op … M%3DHDRSC4

I might wonder if we may want Limpet Robots for the Moon. The gravity is rather large, but it is near by. Much less time latency.

Done.

Zodanga! https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=zo … &FORM=VIRE

Done

Based on very old SciFi, but they did have a robot city called Zodanga, (The bad guys though).

The gravity for Mars and the Moon is probably too high, but maybe Vesta and smaller worlds might work out. We could try the Moon, but I am not so sure about it.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-03-31 20:18:00)

Void · 2023-04-01 11:11:00

Well, eventually this video or ones like it will be available on search engines like Bing: "Dr. Know-it-all, It's ALL IN THE HIPS : Why Tesla's Optimus Has Such a big Butt! With Scott Walter"

It is pretty nerdy stuff, which I can digest to a point.

Anyway, "Limpet" structures could be heavy or light. Tent would be too light for worlds with winds, but might suit the Moon.

For Phobos, it is hard to say, but perhaps if you have the "Muscle" of a average human, then you might need 1000 to 2000 pounds for every unit of that sort of force. Sorry, but that is just reckoning in place of future supposed better evaluations.

(453.59237 kg to 907.184739 kg).

Query: "How much would I weigh on Phobos?"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos_(m … %20Travels.
Quote:

About 40 gram-force (2 ounces)
A person who weighs 68 kilogram-force (150 pounds) on Earth would weigh about 40 gram-force (2 ounces) standing on the surface of Phobos. Geological features on Phobos are named after astronomers who studied Phobos and people and places from Jonathan Swift 's Gulliver's Travels.
Average orbital speed: 2.138 km/s
Satellite of: Mars
Surface area: 1548.3 km², (3.03545 µEarths)
Surface gravity: 0.0057 m/s², (581.4 µg)

For the Moon we might do more than a tent, maybe some thermal insulation. The factory elements that would be sheltered within, might have their own mobility and follow along inside or outside the structure.

For Phobos, you would likely have a very thick "Shell, filled with regolith or regolith brick. You would usually tie as much factory equipment to the frame of the structure to weight it down as would be practical to do.

It is possible that humanoid robots might be involved with each situation or some derivative of that that may be sensible for the environments.

The Phobos version being very heavy would likely have the best radiation and thermal protections from solar storms, and thermal variations.

The Lunar version would have to provide those on a need only basis to survive the rigors, and to protect the equipment and perhaps humans.

For each situation there is this possibility or the alternative of placing a factory somewhere as rooted to the ground or underground, and then the raw materials must be brought to it.

We know that the solar wind plunges into Phobos, we do not know if Helium, Hydrogen, and water are adsorbed into the surface or the interior, but it could be suspected. For the Moon, we know that water travels about not only in the shadowed craters but even daily and at lower latitudes. Incorporating a harvest method for theses might be facilitated by the ability of the whole structure to move. For instance after a Lunar night, you might move to a new patch of ground which may have moisture in it. As the ground was heated during the Lunar day, a method may be available to collect evaporating molecules of these materials. I can think of ways to try but so can other people, and so someone will likely come up with something.

I have not specified power supplies. I do not object to the safe use of anything available.

https://www.space.com/water-on-the-moon … nce%202009.
Quote:

Water molecules are hopping around the moon as the lunar surface warms and cools throughout the day, new research suggests. That research is based on observations gathered by NASA's Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter, which has been studying our planet's close companion since 2009.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-04-01 12:07:51)

Void · 2023-04-01 12:08:43

So, perhaps you have these things building a line of solar panels with power transmission lines, maybe even some parts of a Mass Driver.

Mostly robotic and in communication with Earth, perhaps very few humans on the Moon for this process.

Blue Origin solar panels.

https://www.space.com/blue-origin-solar … %20surface.
Quote:

Blue Origin, Jeff Bezos' private spaceflight company, claims it has made major progress in developing a way to make solar panels using materials from the lunar surface.

So, now once the thing has laid down enough solar panels and power lines, it may not need much for on-board power. It should be power rich at that point, at least during part of the day. Probably nighttime would be a hibernation behavior.

But I suppose eventually stationary, power storage might allow it to run 24/7. So, over time a "Power Line" could enable a mobile device(s), to work around the clock, building power facilities and power lines and even mass driver tracks.

If you do build the tracks, then they should also be able to allow slow traffic, and not only launches of mass.

Water and Carbon may only be needed for a limited amount of processes such as human life support. So, the collection of a little water may go a long way. Recycling being very important I am sure.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-04-01 12:16:40)

Void · 2023-04-01 12:46:03

A Horseshoe Crab is an ancient model of life which we might emulate to a degree with robotics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_crab
It could house other smaller robots and perhaps humans.

A machine to build lines of things on a worlds surface.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_crab
Image Quote:

The underside looks a bit creepy, but you could see how robotic legs might move a tent like shell around on the surface of a world:
Image Quote:

Actually, if the creature can rest on the perimeter of it's shell while the legs are withdrawn, and then if it has enough power to lift the shell up and forward with the legs, maybe it could work for Mars. Probably the Moon and other smaller worlds.

Done.

So, maybe even for Mars such robots could lay lines of track and solar panels, just using the raw materials at hand as it moves along, drawing power from the tracks.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-04-01 12:52:49)

Void · 2023-04-01 13:59:24

So, basically a "Self-Building Railroad System". And in some cases you might try to add Mass Drivers. Maybe these Mass Drivers would eventually be long enough that you would not have to do high g forces as much. Of course, at first and also later you could have the high g versions.

Once you create a collection of robots that can build these "Lines" then you likely could do it on many worlds. The Moon, Asteroids.

What about Phobos and Deimos? Could you have a rail that goes around the circumference, to launch loads? Granted you have to be able to do it without blowing the moon apart. Maybe Deimos would be easier to do it as it is smaller.

As for artificial gravity, you certainly could have habitats a bit away from these moons.

Done.

A "Self-Building Railroad System" only has to work once and then you know how to do it many places.

Well, after all, "I've been working on the railroad".

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-04-01 14:04:29)

Void · 2023-04-01 18:59:04

Perhaps some will be repelled about robots instead of humans. I don't agree at all. I feel that robotics are likely to cause more openings for humans in space.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-04-02 09:16:39)

Void · 2023-04-02 09:21:40

I am rethinking it a bit. Maybe upgraded tesla vehicles adapted for the Moon, with periodic charging stations and heated garages to overnight in. Power cables connecting them though. Perhaps microwaved roads. Then on occasion actually a mass driver.

Such a road system north and south could dip into the shadowed craters to get more water but could also spread south in general to amp up the power.

So, then lots of tesla products, robots and vehicles, garages with power storage of some kind, probably thermal storage as well as that would be simple. So, I realized that rails would be expensive and also suffer from the thermal changes.

Maybe Mass driver rails would not have to suffer that much as really it is the magnetism that matters. Maybe they are even in the shadowed craters, if the materials can tolerate the conditions.

Done.

So, you would then still have a "Builder" robot system, which would take "Point" at the end of the power cables, and make yet another "Survival Pad" with a charging station and protective facilities.

Done.

Maybe trolly cars?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tram

So, less dependence on batteries, and making the power lines do double duty. Maybe no rails though and maybe the "Cars" do have some small amount of battery to allow them to be a little more autonomous.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-04-02 09:35:24)

Void · 2023-04-03 08:49:38

Currently I am back wondering about underground atmospheres.

Even "Airless" worlds such as the Moon are not airless. So, what goes on inside the rubble? I read that originally the near surface materials may have been 20% porous, but now is perhaps 10% porous. This is different than the Earth in most places of course.

There are ways that gas molecules may cling to rubble materials. So, not condensation, but more like Adsorption. I presume that this is the whole reason that it is though that Helium3 may be mined from the Moon.

Seems like good materials:
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio … 20regolith.
Quote:

The adsorptive capacity of lunar soil to adsorb water molecules increases with increasing the adsorption barrier coefficient. For soil layers with a lower temperature, adsorption plays a more important role than collision in hindering the migration of H_2 O molecules in the regolith.

I find that the above material is useful.

Last edited by Void (2023-04-03 09:09:47)

Calliban · 2023-04-03 09:06:05

Void, what you are describing sounds like a labyrinth seal.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labyrinth_seal

Fluids experience friction as they pass over solids, resulting in a viscous boundary layer that impedes flow. If the gaps are small and the path is tortuous, then a solid does not neccesarily need to be air tight to impede flow. An underground base on Mars could have a ceiling made from rubble blocks and covered with sand. The pore spaces between the particles would not be air tight, but the rubble would only leak air slowly because of the labyrinth effect. This is definitely something we will use to our advantage.

We can reduce leakage by plastering the ceiling with paste made from fine regolith mixed with water. I think the first Mars bases could be built from bricks, cemented into nubian vaults using wet regolith under a tarp. We could build robots that allow this sort of work to be done without EVA. And the water can be mostly recycled.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-04-03 09:12:30)

Void · 2023-04-03 09:11:44

I am sure that is related. I am however working towards methods to understand natural activities in porous regolith with very low air pressures. Maybe including Mars, but more towards the Moon, Phobos, and asteroids.

I also have attention on this body of discovery, which is similar to some other data available previously from other entities, but still significantly perhaps an advance in understanding: https://tech.hindustantimes.com/tech/ne … %20thought.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/27/world/wa … index.html
Quote: f_webp

In the above they are investigating the flow of Hydrogen/Water into and out of the Lunar regolith. I am also interested in the possible flow of molecules horizontally through the regolith, possibly influenced by electrical charge and current flow.

We are gradually modifying our views from the religiously imposed doctrine, post Apollo, to the notion that Bone Dry Moon > Ice at the poles > Methods where water still flows to the Moon > Water cycle on the Moon.

As seems to be the case, our only hope of escaping from a slave culture being imposed by the Archaic West, is to have contact with the true East. Or, at least it helps. Atlantic and Pacific entities still have some powers to overcome the excessive verbal peoples, but China and other related cultures can help. They can help, sometimes, as in this case.

We are in a fight for our freedom to escape the prisons of slavery constructed of words of containing poisonous falsehoods.

So, discovery gives hope.

I will point to my "Just at the moment" objective.
-Mobile molecules adsorb into the regolith.
-Extract to usefulness.

What seems to be the case is that until the beads are heated to over 100 degrees, C, I presume, the water is released.
Quote:

In fact, it could be how more than 270 trillion kilograms (600 trillion pounds) of water is stored across the moon.

If this is true and to what magnitude this may be true, then the sun is already sufficiently up in the Lunar sky before the release of water. So, then solar energy may be deployed to cause a more controlled release. Some have suggested digging the regolith to release the materials, I rather would seek to heat it in a controlled and non-destructive manner, to cause a release of molecules of various sorts adsorbed to the regolith. For shallow heating, then concentrating mirrors, for deeper heating perhaps microwaves.

Then of course you need a capture method. I will leave that open to invention, as if I give my notions, if may replace what might emerge in other peoples minds, and so those possible concepts may be lost.

I am not only interested in this for the Moon, but also for Asteroids, and it just might relate to Mars in some way as well.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-04-03 09:40:48)

Void · 2023-04-03 11:24:51

I intend to ponder Itokawa, Mars and its moons.

https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/asteroids- … /in-depth/

Carbon and water discussed:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-84517-x
Quote:

Abstract
Understanding the true nature of extra-terrestrial water and organic matter that were present at the birth of our solar system, and their subsequent evolution, necessitates the study of pristine astromaterials. In this study, we have studied both the water and organic contents from a dust particle recovered from the surface of near-Earth asteroid 25143 Itokawa by the Hayabusa mission, which was the first mission that brought pristine asteroidal materials to Earth’s astromaterial collection. The organic matter is presented as both nanocrystalline graphite and disordered polyaromatic carbon with high D/H and 15N/14N ratios (δD = + 4868 ± 2288‰; δ15N = + 344 ± 20‰) signifying an explicit extra-terrestrial origin. The contrasting organic feature (graphitic and disordered) substantiates the rubble-pile asteroid model of Itokawa, and offers support for material mixing in the asteroid belt that occurred in scales from small dust infall to catastrophic impacts of large asteroidal parent bodies. Our analysis of Itokawa water indicates that the asteroid has incorporated D-poor water ice at the abundance on par with inner solar system bodies. The asteroid was metamorphosed and dehydrated on the formerly large asteroid, and was subsequently evolved via late-stage hydration, modified by D-enriched exogenous organics and water derived from a carbonaceous parent body.

So, these rather cold objects have various methods to incorporate volatile materials over time. And I would suppose that both adsorption of the solar wind and glass beads may also apply. So, stony asteroid may not be entirely true, there may be a more minor nature that is organic. And I suppose even possibly some metal asteroid fragments as well.

About the temperature of Phobos: https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/moons/mars … /in-depth/
Quote:

High temperatures for Phobos were measured at 25 degrees Fahrenheit (-4 degrees Celsius) and lows at -170 degrees Fahrenheit (-112 degrees Celsius). This intense heat loss is likely a result of the fine dust on Phobos' surface, which is unable to retain heat. Phobos has no atmosphere. See more

So, without an atmosphere, it is not so surprising that Phobos is colder than Mars. Well, at least I expect it to be colder.

The main point, I guess is that the temperature does not get up to 100 C unless some energy other than sunlight can apply.

If adsorption into the regolith and also the glass bead thing work there then we do not seem to have a method to release water other than impactors, and, (I think), electric discharges.

Query: [img]The solar wind is absorbed into Phobos[/img]
General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=The+solar … A0&PC=U531
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/ … ght%20side.
Quote:

Phobos, however, absorbs the solar wind on its dayside, leaving a void over its night side.
Because the electrons are lighter than the ions, they rush in to fill the void.
This creates a field of negative electric potential over Phobos and statically charges its night side.

So, with solar wind ions (+) being inside the pore space of the regolith, and an electron cloud (-) on the leeward side of Phobos, I see the possibility of electrical discharges. This could create water ice out of the adsorbed materials, and the materials of the regolith as well.

I have presented this many times before: https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/moons/mars-moons/in-depth/
Quote:

The moons appear to be made of carbon-rich rock mixed with ice and may be captured asteroids.

The pore space could not be completely filled with ice, or the (+) solar wind would not pass into the moon. So, maybe some ice, and probably, in my opinion, some adsorbed volatiles.

I wonder about the temperature of Itokawa? I don't seem to be able to get it. They go on and on about ancient thermal events.

OK, so I got it for Eros instead: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/433_Eros# … 123%20K%29.
Quote:

Eros's surface gravity varies greatly because Eros is not a sphere but an elongated peanut-shaped object. The daytime temperature on Eros can reach about 100 °C (373 K) at perihelion. Nighttime measurements fall near −150 °C (123 K). Eros's density is 2.67 g/cm3, about the same as the density of Earth's crust. It rotates once every 5.27 hours.

So, it just barely gets warm enough at the maximum to release water from glass beads, at the very surface. However Eros may not be a rubble pile, but must have rubble on it's surface at least.

That is enough for now.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-04-03 12:18:24)

Void · 2023-04-05 12:00:51

Fluffy Lithobraking, Rings, and Mass Drivers.

A lot of speculation. In do not intend to deliver a finished product, but rather things partially baked, as something to consider, and hope to improve on. I can expect failure for some of it for sure, at least at first.

My own recent dabbling in fluffy lithobraking would be to has a special ship that might drop ping-pong balls into a shadowed crater from a distance up. The ship would not have landing legs, to save on consumption of propellants to counter inertia and gravitational hover. It was hoped that the rocket exhaust impinging on the dust of the regolith would create a temporary fluidization to help the dropped objects survive in a useful state the impact with the Moon. The ping-pong balls dropping would also provide s certain fluidization as well, for sibling objects being dropped.

I would say that I think that this method might work to drop rubble from an asteroid like Bennu.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/101955_Bennu
So this could be a shortcut to drop something like Carbon Dust from asteroids as well. Carbon has a very high vapor pressure. Obviously Carbon could have value on the Moon for several reasons. If local sources which can be mined are not found, then this might be a practice that could have value. I have a Tripple Point for Carbon of 4600 K, very hot indeed to form a vapor.

Because I want to consider making a ring for the Moon and for Mars, I am interested in this: https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/ … adus-ring/
Quote:

The Enceladus Ring

So, Enceladus is spewing material into space that forms a ring. I think it would be good to find out how it works.

We have this body of thinking involving creation of a magnetic field for Mar, using Phobos dust: https://www.inverse.com/science/mars-mo … med%20Mars. Quote:

The team proposes using Phobos by ionizing particles from its surface, then accelerating them so they create a plasma torus along the orbit of Phobos. This would create a magnetic field strong enough to protect a terraformed Mars.

So, I wonder if we could make a ring(s) system like for Saturn, and if it could project a magnetic field?

They plan to use ionized dust, I am wondering also about magnetic properties for the dust. Magnetism may cause the dust to clump, but ionization will cause it to repulse from each grain of dust. Any ring should likely have to be away from Phobos itself or that moon may collect the dust back. Well, maybe that is OK if you keep shooting it back out?

I have wondered if a spacecraft could propel up and down a ring(s). Magnetically, in this case I would suggest. You might magnetize the dust to a preferred amount. This would involve using the dust with the desired iron content, and then baking it and letting it cool in an intense magnetic field, perhaps.

For the Moon, could we eject magnetic dust with Mass Drivers to create a ring. The dust would hopefully lithobrake in a fluffy manner, interacting with the existing dust ring.

Many orbits of the Moon are unstable, but I wonder if a ring which attracts to it's own magnetic field, and does a standoff of particles by electrostatic force, could be maintained stable enough?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_driver
Quote:

One possible drawback of the mass driver is that it has the potential to send solid reaction mass travelling at dangerously high relative speeds into useful orbits and traffic lanes. To overcome this problem, most schemes plan to throw finely-divided dust. Alternatively, liquid oxygen could be used as reaction mass, which upon release would boil down to its molecular state. Propelling the reaction mass to solar escape velocity is another way to ensure that it will not remain a hazard.

But even magnetic dust of a small size might be a impactor problem? Or make it not possible to navigate a ship around the Moon.

I don't know these things.

If you tried to do it you would have a ring of mass drivers around the equator, perhaps and make sure that a fluid flow from each links up to a whole ring of magnetic/electrostatic dust.

I don't know if this could hold off the solar wind or not. Of if it is desired to do so. I am just thinking about these things.

But if you could do fluffy lithobraking of magnetic dust into a ring, then you may also collect a portion of the dust and use it as mined materials. Granted there are plans to send stuff to a L5 or L4 location, and I am not knocking that, I just want to consider this option as well.

We might also consider a ring for Venus to make a magnetic field. This may allow Oxygen to be kept. If Oxygen is kept, then Ozone may form. If Ozone may form then UV that may form the Sulfuric Acid, may be reduced, and the amount of Sulfuric Acid may be reduced. Maybe.

Time for lunch!

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-04-05 12:35:12)

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