New Mars Forums

Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 5,590

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

So, I went to bed last night thinking about Venus and the contents of the previous post.

I have this query: "Mining the atmosphere of Venus"

It fetched this anyway: https://space.stackexchange.com/questio … atmosphere
Image Quote:
They are thinking of a Cloud City, which is also an option. 

I however am focusing on orbital harvesting of the atmosphere of Venus.

There is a video in the previous post that includes mention of it and also how to include ionized atmospheric gasses into a magnetic field.

Atmosphere Breather:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospher … propulsion

So, I think chances are that the atmosphere of Venus could be minded from orbit.  Perhaps using counterrotating tether methods.

The atmosphere may or may not have enough Nitrogen at that level for similar function as for Earth.

If gasses can be collected, then other methods of propulsion could be shooting CO2 ice out with a Mass Driver system, and perhaps an Oxygen Mass Driver.  Carbon and Nitrogen and Argon might be of particular value.

Probably such a system would work with cloud cities, and it might even be possible to have robots bring regolith up from the surface to the cloud cities and then up to orbit.

And likely this would be in trade with other worlds.

Maybe magnetic Carbon? https://physicsworld.com/a/the-magnetism-of-carbon/
Quote:

The magnetism of carbon
03 Nov 2004
Carbon is about to join the list of ferromagnetic elements, but the origins of its magnetic properties remain a mystery

So, I don't know if it would be suitable for a Mass Driver or not.  It is a Maybe then.

But if Magnetic Carbon were possible, it might be embedded in dry ice loads to eject with a Mass Driver, and so then may be assistive for a method of space propulsion.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-03-16 10:35:10)

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Done.

Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 5,590

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

For Earth LEO, space junk is of course a problem with such platforms, but if you can scoop up atmosphere, it might be worth it to fix that problem by removing the worst problems and by making your platform able to survive the hazards, and to not shed materials much.

That's all.

Done.

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Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 5,590

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Moving to Mars: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 67#p207767

Quote:

Here is a new emerging skill, level of benefit, not yet defined.

MARCH 17, 2023

Carbon dioxide electrolysis as an alternative to coal
by Forschungszentrum Juelich

https://techxplore.com/news/2023-03-car … -coal.html

n the current experimental set-up using modular components which are not optimized for efficiency, the stack achieves an efficiency of 30%. "For this type of process, which already operates below 100°C, it is already a quite promising result," explains Institute Director Prof. Rüdiger-A. Eichel.

"Compared to high-temperature co-electrolysis, for example, plant design is relatively simple and produced pure CO instead of synthesis gas which further simplifies processing for many applications. Thus, a decentral supply of the platform chemical CO can be provided to the industrial companies in the Rhenish region, saving transport cost," says Rüdiger-A. Eichel. The next steps are further developments and improvements in efficiency to bring the cell stack to the final stage of readiness for mass production.

I will consider it odd if the members do not like it.  I have not specified the energy source, solar, wind, nuclear, other?

My feeling is that we might want to look into it for Mars as well.

I would hesitate to include this material as it is not the historical assessment of probability for the moons of Mars, but it comes from NASA.

Mars Moons: (Carbon in the Martian moons)
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/moons/mars … 20diameter.

The moons appear to be made of carbon-rich rock mixed with ice and may be captured asteroids.

I am going to copy this into a terraforming topic and expand on the Mars aspect more.

Done.

The current ships designed to go to Mars often include Methalox as the propulsion method.  This then requires mining ice a large quantities.

But to work on Mars, I wonder if CO & O2 are the better choices?  For instance, you can obtain the chemical CO2 virtually anywhere on Mars, and also it seems likely Carbon and Oxygen from the Martian moons.

For various reasons you would not be likely to do this for Earth, but on Mars, we are more concerned about down-mass than up-mass.

We also need a means of transport of minerals and equipment.  A sub-orbital robotic craft for that might make sense.

You would likely have significant bases where bulk raw materials would exist, but you might want small quantities of something, that it may be practical to transport by such ships.

I see Starship as a potential transport of lots of people, but for bulk machinery and bulk materials, electric rockets might do the job, delivering to Martian orbit, perhaps by Ballistic Capture, and then all you would need is a ship that would go up with little cargo and come down with lots of cargo.

It is not certain that CO2 could be cooked out of the Martian moons, but it is more likely than for accessible water to be in the moons as ice.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-03-18 11:09:28)

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Done.

Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 5,590

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

This post may connect to the just previous post.

The Angry Astronaut gave this video: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheAngryAstron … n_mars_in/

I should have thought of it before, but if using CO & O2 propulsion, you could get your propellants on top of the four high mountains of the Tharsis rise.

My point being that if you had a type of ship like that it could jump to the top of such a mountain and then refill with propellants to then jump to orbit.  If the moons of Mars would provide or if the atmosphere of Mars could be mined from orbit, then you could then refill in low Martian orbit.

These mountains being at a high elevation and near the equator, can give the largest amount of free planetary spin energy to a launch to orbit.

Done.

It is still in my mind that if you could land a Starship with nuclear reactors in it, it could immediately begin cooking up resources from the Atmosphere.  Oxygen and CO, maybe Argon and Nitrogen if those would be of use.

Of course, then there could be a radiation hazard for humans, but then that is a problem to solve.

I am sure there are several solutions.

And I am wondering if a surface hopper could be landed without cargo, using CO and Oxygen.  Then that would be available right away for moving about the surface.  Could it ascend to orbit if refilled?  I don't know.

Seems like it should be able.

Complicated and perhaps to be unloved, could you have a three tank Starship?  Two Tanks for Methane on the way to Mars, and use one tank for Methane and one for CO on the way back from Mars.  We expect to send less people back and also little cargo goes back.

Of course, then you need at least two in space CO engines.  Redundancy.

So, then you have to cook up much less Methane for launch to orbit.  Path to Earth then is CO.  But I am not sure if CO can do the Hohmann Transfer to Earth upon arrival.

Tanks may not be big enough if using CO.  Anyway, something to think about.

If you need massive amounts of water then you cannot likely mine the ice until humans get there.  Then you have a time duration where, things have to work right.  And all that could interfere with science and also set up of the base.

I think consideration of cooking CO and O2 in landed ships with nuclear reactors should be considered.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-03-18 13:11:57)

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Done.

Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 5,590

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I justify some of my posts to terraforming, as valid as you probably have to have the tools to access Mars and for humans and their machines to function on Mars if you hope to terraform it.  (Also, I get left to my devices here more, as there seem to be more permissions).

A shift in my thinking lately is about water and CO propulsions.  We have our pointer on the mid-latitude ice slabs, because water is necessary, and those were thought to be the source of water closest to the equator. 

I will make note however that those ice slabs very likely hide useful mineral resources.  So, now if you make your base on one of those, you have to bring minerals in from far away, unless you can either find the minerals under the ice slabs or move enough water to mineral locations hundreds of miles away.  The poles are too cold to start on and they also likely hide the minerals, and make the inaccessible.

What we should want is enough water, and lots of minerals at hand local, as much as is possible.

It is starting to look like the Rift Valley System may be what we want.  It is warmer.  It is likely that Hydrogen compounds can be had, and minerals are exposed.  And of course solar energy is also available, to some degree with the exception of dust storm periods.

"The Angry Astronaut" has produced Video's about such.

This is one recent one: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheAngryAstron … n_mars_in/
He mentions a possible glacier, and some minerals.

This however does seem possible as well, Hydrogen in Candor Chaos: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne … 180979267/

In any case with the probable existence of advanced robots to be available, and the potential for a hopper spacecraft, I again suggest the use of CO and O2 for hopping about on Mars.  Such could bring in Liquid Hydrogen from a source to a mineral deposit, and could also carry minerals out to a major base where water is available.

Some mineral deposits would need little water for humans as most of the labor would be done with robot/avatars.

That is what I think now.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-03-19 12:00:02)

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Done.

Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 5,590

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

About outer belt asteroids with water and organics: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 09#p207909

The distance ~3.2 AU is likely to allow mirrors to make solar useful at those distances, so power and also a range of materials.

Looks pretty good for spin gravity worlds and such to me.

Done

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