Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void · 2023-01-15 10:58:57

I am going to use this post to collect materials about Martian climate processes: "Scientists have a new theory explaining liquid water on Mars"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Scientist … a19f5e8ed8

https://www.inverse.com/science/liquid- … ars-theory
Quote:

HOW THEY DID IT — On Earth, low-lying clouds cool the Earth’s surface while high clouds warm the planet. The same is true for Mars — water-ice clouds grace its skies for much of the Martian year. Water-ice clouds are, as the name suggests, not warm, but in the planet’s early history, cloud cover may have been more substantial and could have provided significant greenhouse warming.
Kite and his team made a global climate model of Mars simulating the ancient greenhouse effect clouds would have generated on the planet. The model suggests temperatures would have been warm enough for surface water to exist, but it would have been in discrete areas, like ponds and lakes, rather than in huge seas, like on Earth.
“Our models produced a warm, arid climate, but only if the spatial distribution of surface water is quite patchy,” Kite explains.

https://www.nasa.gov/topics/moonmars/fe … 20solution.
Quote:

Scientists concluded that salty liquid water on Mars may explain the stability of fluids against freezing on the Martian surface at temperatures below 0°C.
"Our goal was to learn how a combination of different processes of evaporation and freezing affect the freezing point of a hypothetical Martian solution.

This article is really good: https://marspedia.org/Hellas_quadrangle (Hellas quadrangle)
Quote:

How climate change caused ice-rich features
Many features on Mars, including ones in Hellas quadrangle, are believed to contain large amounts of ice. The Hellas region displays many strange and beautiful landscapes. Most do not have their counterparts on the Earth. Researchers have struggled to explain these features and others. Mars holds many mysteries. However, after so much coverage by satellites with increasing better cameras, we have made major strides in understanding the mysteries of the Red Planet. Some aspects of the planet are still debated. We do understand much of the nature of Mars, but some details have yet to be worked out.
Most of the strangeness of the Hellas region relates to climate change. Indeed, most of the whole planet’s surface appearance is driven by drastic and frequent climate changes. These changes are due to basic physics. Seasons on the planets, including the Earth, are caused by the tilt of a planet's rotational axis. Because the Earth has a moon of considerable mass, the Earth’s axis does not change much from its usual 23.5 degrees. However, Mars lacks a large moon; consequently its tilt has even been greater than 80 degrees. Note that its tilt at 25 degrees is almost the same as ours. [19] [20] Studies have shown that when the tilt of Mars reaches 45 degrees from its current 25 degrees, ice is no longer stable at the poles. As a result, it will disappear.[21] Furthermore, at this high tilt, stores of solid carbon dioxide (dry ice) sublimate, thereby increasing the atmospheric pressure. This increased pressure allows more dust to be held in the atmosphere. With more dust, more ice will freeze onto the dust. Eventually, moisture in the atmosphere will fall as snow or as ice frozen onto dust grains. Calculations suggest this material will concentrate in the mid-latitudes. And Hellas is in the mid-latitudes of the southern hemisphere.[22] [23]
Using decades of data from orbiting satellites together with general principles about weather and climate, researchers have developed theories or models that explain why Mars looks like it does. They call these models or theories general circulation models. These theories predict accumulations of ice-rich dust (which becomes permafrost, also called 'mantle') in the same areas where ice-rich features are found.[24] When the tilt begins to return to lower values, the ice sublimates (turns directly to a gas) and leaves behind a lag of dust.[25] [26] This lag deposit caps the underlying material so with each cycle of high tilt levels, some ice-rich mantle remains behind.[27] After many, many cycles of mantle accumulation some places, especially the Hellas region, accumulate very thick deposits of mantle, technically called latitude dependent mantle (because its occurrence depends on the latitude). Some parts of the mantle may have changed into solid ice in a manner analogous to how snow turns into ice in our Earth’s glaciers. The following pictures show expressions of this mantle in the Hellas region.

-----

OK, so that is a lot of materials. The first thing I note is that it may not explain Hydrogen signals from parts of the Valles Marinaris, so that may exist for other reasons such as ground water emergence (Maybe).

One thing that I am considering is that it is a good thing that the Martian poles wander, otherwise water might be permanently buried as ice, and might not emerge again. With the wandering of the poles, the ice has a greater distribution than it might otherwise have.

The cautions of Calliban: 1) A thicker atmosphere may impede the use of Mass Drivers on the surface of Mars. 2) Causing running liquid water may pull down the atmospheric pressure over time.

So, if we discover some levers to allow us to tweak the current conditions on Mars, we might also want to consider Caliban's concerns.

The question of precipitation on Mars: https://www.nature.com/articles/ngeo3008
So, it seems that snow is the item possible. At this time snow is not very active, but it probably has been for small periods of time where the CO2 in the caps has been more mobilized into a gas.

The question can be, "How would the human effort be advantaged, if the Martian atmosphere were expanded to an average twice what it is now?".

Query: "Average surface air pressure on Mars?"
https://www.bing.com/search?q=Average+s … 4fdb3f9024
Quote:

6 to 7 millibars

So, from past readings I think there is enough surface CO2 ice to double the pressure to 12 to 14 millibars.

So, this little toy is wonderful:

Vapor Pressure of Water Calculator
http://endmemo.com/chem/vaporpressurewater.php

For 10 degrees C the pressure should be: 12.2118 millibar.

This is a useful reference: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Highest+a … 96adef7dfb
Quote:

30 pascals
The Wikipedia gives two points of reference for the atmospheric pressure on Mars:
Peak of Olympus Mons: 30 pascals (0.3 millibars)
Hellas Planitia: 1,155 pascals (11.5 millibars)
Earth Altitude with Equivalent Pressure to Mars

If we can double the air pressure of Mars, in Hellas, 23 millibars + Compression factor would be possible. (As the atmosphere thickens, I believe that the pressures in the low points will rise more than at the high points. Because there are more molecules present in an air column, and gravity pulls on each molecule.

So, if atmosphere is doubled, (23.2977). at the bottom of Hellas, then the boiling point of water would be 20 degrees C.

I have never been able to calculate it, but I will guess maybe ~~~30 millibars. If it were 29.7457 millibars, then the boiling point would be 24 degrees C

So, 20 C = 68 F and 24 C = 75.2 F, for us knuckle draggers. (This helps with perceptions of relationships for us).

I seem to recall that the Valles Marinaris has a highest pressure of approximately 9 millibars.

So, to double that would be 18 millibars. So, maybe a boiling point of 20 C = 68 F (Just an estimate}.

But boiling points are not enough to prevent evaporation from exposed ice on a small body of water, or of course even open water.

But to get the high greenhouse clouds we want to have some small icy bodies of water or the equivalent. But to have the possibility of that we need the CO2 of the ice caps evaporated. So, these may work together, as feedback to each other. High water vapor clouds allow full inflation of CO2, and full inflation of CO2 allows for high water vapor clouds.

And that then might allow for snowfalls which might melt possibly creating small ice-covered bodies of water which may provide evaporation to create the high clouds.

Does Mars have a deep liquid water aquifer?
General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Does+Mars … 92322d0238

This is a useful article, but an ambiguous answer: https://astrobiology.nasa.gov/news/wate … ry-so-far/
Deep aquifers are suspected but not proven or detected, except for perhaps on the South Pole of Mars.
As for the use of, (Caliban's Concern), Mass Drivers, previous in this post a value of .3 millibars was given for the top of Olympus Mons. So, that probably would not double, if you evaporated all the solid CO2 near the surface. So, maybe .5 millibars? That might still work.
That might also be used with tethers from orbit as well to lift mass.

While we might use orbital mirrors and microwave beams to evaporate exposed ice from the ice caps, and also vaporize CO2 as well, and we might use greenhouse gasses to help vaporize these, to toggle the Martian climate to the warmer version supposed to occur with a high tilt of axis, I also want to find out if we might puncture the permafrost in low places and allow aquifer water to be exposed to the atmosphere. A new member is working on something related to that. PhotonBytes is the new member.

He proposes impactors to dig a deep hole in Hellas, to provide a higher air pressure in the hole. I of course am usually about water, and would hope to punch holes in the permafrost, which would fracture and heat the subsurface, allowing water to flow out of aquifers to be in contact with the Martial atmosphere and climate cycle. The presumed value of this is you get a lake inside of a hole with improved air pressure, and these small bodies of water may boot up a higher pressure version of the Martian climate cycle.

I feel that the development of Mars should be done in a reality where we also build orbital habitats in the solar system, and perhaps around Mars: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 85#p205085

The permafrost puncture method is discussed here in post #16: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 36#p205136

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-15 13:28:05)

Void · 2023-01-15 14:49:32

Looking at the materials of the previous post, i think that the aquifers of Mars must be charged with water to some extent.

If there were a seasonal nature to the tilt of Mars, then you might have a very long spring, summer, fall, winter for the poles of Mars, with the equator areas being sort of a mirror image of that.

https://mars.nasa.gov/resources/3721/ch … mars-axis/
Quote:

Top right is when ice accumulates at the equator. I was confused about that but then the area of ice they indicate is the Tharsis Rise, I believe. Ice by Altitude then and otherwise ice by polar cold.

So, in this model, there are really three poles, North, South, and Tharsis. And if water is emerging from the floor of the Valles Marineras, it may come from aquifers charged by the "Tharsis" pole. Tharsis is like the Earth's Tibet pole. But out axis does not wander so much. There are other factors as just now, the southern hemisphere has a warmer summer and a colder winter, I believe as the orbit of Mars is not so circular. The question of charging aquifers may also depend on how much CO2 is in the atmosphere.

So, the seasons for each of the 3 poles actually would involve Accumulation, Melting, Evaporation. No guarantee that melting can occur.

But during the time of accumulation dust may be included into the ice, so that it may not be necessary for the actual surface temperature to be above 0 degrees C. The dust in the ice may allow melting, and the melt water may flow down, depending on the weight of the ice/dust layer that is melting.

The north pole is in a low area, so I am not thinking it could charge aquifers far away very well, but it is situated to have warmer summers than the other two, I think.

It is possible that the South pole might charge aquifers for Hellas.

So, then if impactors could punch a hole in the permafrost, water may emerge and flow for some time. Without human intervention the lake formed would likely accumulate dust, and the layer of ice would thicken. Over time the heat of the impactor would diminish, and it is possible that the artesian spring would plug again.

Query: Thickness of Permafrost in the Hellas Depression, Mars?

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Thickness … cc=0&ghpl=

https://mars.nasa.gov/resources/7194/pi … -planitia/

Very hard to get numbers for thickness of permafrost on Mars now. I seem to recall 3 to 8.5 km. But that might be wrong.

https://airandspace.si.edu/exhibitions/ … ce/ice.cfm

I want to go do other things. But if an impactor could be used to smash/melt a hole in the permafrost at the bottom of Hellas, the resulting lake could be managed, and covered with protective transparencies, and hopefully accumulate salts, so that it could become a massive solar salt pond, and this might stop the permafrost plug from ever reforming, so that the lake could be made to persist.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-15 15:24:16)

Void · 2023-01-16 09:34:34

Much ado about Mushrooms, I hope.

Videos:
Title: "How to Harvest Million Mushroom with Machine - Modern Mushroom Farm, Mushroom cultivation Technology"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZR0GSUkq8I

Title: "Automated Mushroom Harvesting System"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjHM3wDV6Wg

More:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWx3pe0gQbo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjfpEW5IHp4

Something on Hydrilla: https://www.floridatoday.com/picture-ga … /86358426/
https://www.agriculture.com/family/livi … a-in-ponds

Hydrilla as Food: https://www.backtoyourrootsherbs.com/hy … d%20silica.
Quote:

Hydrilla powder is one of the most abundant food sources of calcium on the planet. It is similarly plentiful in a host of mineral co-factors such as chromium, selenium, iron, magnesium, zinc, and silica. It’s also a potent vegan source of the notoriously rare vitamin B12 and the rest of the B-vitamin family.

Grass Carp like to eat Hydrilla: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grass_carp

Some Edible Algae: https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/nutrit … ar-AAUU9mh

Since it also showed up, Bamboo as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vip1mnC3Nn8

----

The two items that might feed on "Plants" are Mushrooms and Carp. These might be the best livestock to consider.

I am tending to think that Hydrilla might feed both of them in space.

So, I am leaning towards aquiculture as a base for agriculture in space. Bamboo is an outlier, but looks so useful, that it should be kept in mind. Other members have suggested it a long time ago.

Hydrilla is one that could be frozen and/or dried. In the case of a major problem, it might keep people from starving.

I am thinking of both Mars and major space platforms with spin gravity.

And if water is used as part of a pressurization process, then aquatic crops may be the easiest. Domesticating them and learning from those who already use them would be a good way to go.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-16 10:54:25)

Void · 2023-01-16 11:41:21

I think maybe some terminology might be established.

Nested Capsule Farming, would have the versions Nested Water Capsule Farming, and Nested Air Capsule Farming.

These do not have to be of plastic, the evil, evil plastics! But they might be.

I am now interested in the economics of it.

We have several problem lakes and seas, were desert farming has challenged the quality of the body of water.

Aral Sea, Dead Sea, Great Salt Lake are among them.

Their waters are not suitable for growing most things. But if you did capsule farming in them it might be. If it actually paid off, then it might become stupid to waste the fresh water resources on dry desert irrigated farming. If capsule farming were of a profit in nature.

The only capsule farming that is currently being done is Nemo's gardens. Looks like they are still in the game. Under water lights? Interesting: http://www.nemosgarden.com/

You can keep in mind that these diving bell transparent capsules are frost free, insect free, and apparently distill their own water from sea water.

So, underwater capsule farming does exist.

I am interested in bags of water, these closable, to keep the interior water from mixing with sea water and to keep sea creatures out.

For instance, what about a bag of fresh water? Something can grow in there. I would likely need to have soil in its interior bottom so that it can be deployed to the bottom, but near neutral buoyancy, so that a sort of boat could pick it up and move it to a planting/harvesting area.

Lets consider the Salton Sea. If you did that there, it might be helpful. A different kind of farming and you would not need to use nearly as much irrigation water, or pesticides.

The question of plastics? Well we already have plastics. If it is going to kill us then it will.

As for organisms evolving to eat plastics. That is interesting. Perhaps they would eventually make the use of plastics in wet domains impractical as the plastics would be digested.

Anyway, my goal is to get capsule farming expanded here on Earth, as it will likely be useful off from the Earth.

Take the Great Salt Lake. Shallow for the most part. If capsule farming could be done there, then it might be preferred to not dry up the lake, but to stabilize it.

Raise the price of dry land irrigation when the lake is drying up and make the cost of dry land farming cheaper when the lake waters are high.

Again, frost free, likely insect free so, maybe not pesticides for the crops, and perhaps needing far less fresh water.

If the plants need CO2 then get some Carbon Captured CO2. Give the environmentalist an orgasm.

Introducing CO2 would then not require water loss by exchanging air with atmosphere.

Yes, it is an alien concept for farming, and we don't have the needed social structure for it yet, but that is another reason to try it so that such structure can be developed.

We should domesticate underwater crops because water filled capsule farming may be easiest, and again would be useful in space.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-16 12:02:19)

Void · 2023-01-16 12:33:42

It might be desired not to include this animal, but it would clean water. Other filter feeders might as well. Ones that would cause less trouble.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=zebra+mus … A1&PC=U531
Quote:

Zebra mussel
Ecology
Shells of three color varietiesLive, underwater, with shells open, respiring, siphons visible
Zebra mussels and the closely related and ecologically similar quagga mussels are filter-feeding organisms; they remove particles from the water column. Zebra mussels process up to 1 litre (0.26 US gal; 34 US fl oz) of water per day, per mussel.[7] Some particles are consumed as food, and feces are deposited on the lake floor. Nonfood particles are combined with mucus and other matter and deposited on lake floors as pseudofeces. Since the zebra mussel has become established in Lake Erie, water clarity has increased from 6 inches to up to three feet in some areas.[8] This increased water clarity allows sunlight to penetrate deeper, enabling growth of submerged macrophytes. These plants, when decaying, wash up on shorelines, fouling beaches and causing water-quality problems.[9]
Lake floor food supplies are enriched by zebra mussels as they filter pollution out of the water. This biomass becomes available to bottom-feeding species and to the fish that feed on them.[10] The catch of yellow perch increased 5-fold after the invasion of zebra mussels into Lake St. Clair.[11]
Zebra mussels attach to most substrates, including sand, silt, and harder substrates, but usually juveniles prefer harder, rockier substrates on which to attach. Other mussel species frequently represent the most stable objects in silty substrates, and zebra mussels attach to and often kill these mussels. They build colonies on native unionid clams, reducing their ability to move, feed, and breed, eventually leading to their deaths. This has led to the near extinction of the unionid clams in Lake St. Clair and the western basin of Lake Erie.[8] This pattern is being repeated in Ireland, where zebra mussels have eliminated the two freshwater mussels from several waterways, including some lakes along the River Shannon in 1997.
In 2012, the National University of Ireland, Galway, said "the discovery of zebra mussels (Dreissena polymorpha) in Lough Derg and the lower Shannon region in 1997 has led to considerable concern about the potential ecological and economic damage that this highly invasive aquatic nuisance species can cause."[12]

Other ways to induce water clarity, would be to limit nutrients.

Perhaps it would be possible to sort of keep the Zebra Muscles on the edge of starvation, and yet have enough of them or a different organism to clarify the water. Then the farming capsules in the main body of water would get more light.

But it could be different organisms, perhaps clams or something.

Does not seem like they are good to eat: https://preparedcooks.com/can-you-eat-zebra-mussels/

Barnacals might do the job for some types of salty water: https://www.americanoceans.org/blog/can … barnacles/

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-16 12:42:36)

Void · 2023-01-16 19:15:27

I have been very excited once again about these people and what they are doing.
http://www.nemosgarden.com/

Quote:

We activated the artificial lights to repeat the experiments of the 2021 (Noli bay is quite dark during the winter season) .

Quote:

July 19 2021 OFFICIAL PRESS RELEASE OUT
We're excited to announce the beginning of a partnership with Siemens and TekSea - our biggest step, yet, towards scaleability of our alternative agricolture project.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemens

https://teksea.net/ (There is a translate to English option).

The beginning of the use of undersea lights is very important, I feel. We cannot know how useful that could be. Undersea are areas not in use, and where there can be lots of nutrients.

I am also interested in them using sunlight as well.

For Mars and other worlds, we may want both skills.

It will be interesting experiments anyway.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-16 19:33:26)

Void · 2023-01-16 20:10:48

Query: Do plants grow under ice on lakes?

General Reply: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Do+plants … 013ae76b15

Very Interesting: https://seagrant.umn.edu/news-info/dire … lake%20ice.

I have been on ice like this. Once I saw a frog swim below the ice. But be careful the water under the ice I walked on was perhaps 1 foot deep. Subhead-4-1200x483-Child-of-Titus-Seilheimer-skating-clear-ice-Titus-Seilheimer-WISG-PXL_20201212_162021946.jpg

Quote:

In ice, the molecules align themselves in a regular lattice pattern and are more spread out, which results in ice being less dense than water. Because the crystal lattice allows a lot of light to pass through, the under-ice environment is surprisingly bright. Aquatic algae and plants can grow under lake ice.

https://www.livescience.com/57011-life- … lakes.html

This is a bit of weird fun: https://www.in-fisherman.com/editorial/ … ice/154586

So, if we put underwater light in then what?

What about the North Sea, where the windmills are?

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-16 20:20:50)

Void · 2023-01-16 20:34:07

Maybe some people will like this: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ut … &FORM=VIRE

Other stuff: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ut … ORM=HDRSC3

I like watching the vegetation: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ut … M%3DHDRSC3

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-01-16 20:38:07)

Void · 2023-01-17 11:30:54

Well, in reality the first thing I would think could be attempted would be to grow some Algae or Cyanobacteria, that can yield oil or sugars.

So, then canals that resemble 6-10 ponds Then these structures over them.
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 06#p204806

The water will most likely be freshwater, and with temperatures of 32 to 39 degrees F. (0 to 3.88888889 degrees C).
Cooler water means less losses of heat and lower vapor pressures.

Calculator for vapor pressure: http://endmemo.com/chem/vaporpressurewater.php

So, actually 0.1 degrees C gives 6.1007 millibar

3.88888889 degrees C gives 8.0113 millibar

So, not that far from average Martian pressure.

And of course, there may well be a layer of clear ice over the top of the water, and some vapor barrier method as well.

So, we are going to want robots that can assist in the redirection of sunlight by mirrors, and that can clean transparent and reflective surfaces. That of course is more of a problem on Mars than on Earth.

On Earth though, generally the weather can be much more challenging, and also the gravity on Earth is 1 g not the .38 g on Mars.

So, Mars is better in many ways. Of course, the robots will need to be able to handle cold temperature, perhaps on a daily or seasonal basis. Probably a combination of the two, and then Dust Storms as well.

I am guessing that the heliostats will not have to be anchored to the ground, but that robots could reposition them as needed. The motors and power for the heliostats needs to be considered. Could be many things, maybe even wind-up clockwork. In that case the robots that can reposition the heliostats might also wind them up periodically and clean them of dust as well. That might be a challenge with the cold.

Query: "Heliostats for Mars". You never know, there may be some work done on it.

Always a good idea to come up for air from time to time:

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Heliostat … 72f8d10746

An array of ideas, worth a look:

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index … %20minimal.
Quote:

As we intend to gather water both from martian soil and from permafrost, (Much of which appears to possibly be quite briney) it should be possible to build a Sterling Engine based heliostat on Mars using fairly inexpensive materials that can be made light enough that transportation costs should be minimal

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index … ic=35435.0

Well, here are some bad actors! https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7552&p=2

I suppose I might put the wiki here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliostat

So, we typically think of a Heliostat as being entirely of its own internal motors. But I might consider a set of heliostats, and a robot that continuously repositions them. That way the heliostats can be simplified we know that robots can move really fast in an automation line so maybe it is a possibility.

I have already suggested that the robot could pick them up and set them down somewhere else. I suggest that they might swivel each Heliostat repeatedly during the day. We don't expect the heliostats on Mars to be blown over by wind, so they can perhaps just sit on the ground. Maybe each heliostat would do some of its positioning, perhaps the vertical sun following might be on board. But then a clockwork computer would need to be adjusted periodically by the robot, to respond according to time of season.

And probably there would be a limited number of models, so that they could be mass produced.

The Dune materials of Mars contain Chromium, Iron, and Titanium, so maybe a reflective coating?

As for the bodies of the Mirrors themselves and the frame they would be mounted on, that might want to be something with primitive materials and 3D printing of some kind. A wish anyway.

That's enough for now.

Heliostats could also be aimed at solar panels as desired/required.

Perhaps some hot processes might be possible.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-18 10:32:34)

Void · 2023-01-17 12:50:50

I feel a desire to explain more as I become more aware of details.

Just a simple East - West Canal is a "Line Target". Not a "Spot Target. Our objective is to supply nourishing photons to microbes or even plants, and to keep water liquid, but not to melt all the ice layer on top, except occasionally to rebuild its clarity.

In some cases, the microbes can swim, so if they see the light, they may follow it in the canal. So, this is quite different than trying to get above 1000 degrees C with a spot target. We can dumb down our heliostat system. So, one possibility is a robot that several times a day turns the heliostats to better work with the sun's horizontal East/West position.

Internal to the heliostat though it might be good to have a power source so that the heliostat can tilt up/down for the sun's position. So, maybe something like this for the power source: https://electronics.howstuffworks.com/g … 0mechanism.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=fa … RE&first=1

I suppose that we could name the robot that lends assistance the "Tender Robot", and it would be much more sophisticated than the heliostats it tends to. Periodic visits can 1)Move the entire heliostat somewhere else. 2)Twist the Heliostat, to follow the sun horizontally, on a periodic basis. 3)Wind up the clockwork several times a day. 4)Clean the mirrors.

The Heliostats might not even have a method to know what to do on the vertical axis, unless the robot tells them to. It might be sort of a simple up/down clutch mechanism, as the Tending Robot can wind them up several times a day and can look at them and tell them to tilt in a certain fashion in the vertical axis.

The Heliostats then would have a little power generator of some kind so that it can communicate with the tender. That could be solar cells or a generator that works off of the clockwork. You would avoid batteries as the night is cold, and you don't need them. The falling weight is a power supply for periods between wind-ups. The Tender Robots would probably take shelter in a building for the night.

So, we might want to find microbes with behaviors like this one: https://www.yalescientific.org/2016/08/ … in-motion/

So, we are looking for the production of Oxygen and biomass.

As I have said growing photo organisms in a canal, is much more lenient a process than trying to spot point to get very high temperatures.

North/South canals may need some modifications of the notion. I may work on that later.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-17 13:09:08)

Void · 2023-01-18 10:19:03

Gridiron: https://www.bing.com/search?q=define%20 … ORM=DCNMOP
Quote:

grid·i·ron
[ˈɡridˌī(ə)rn]
NOUN
a frame of parallel bars or beams, typically in two sets arranged at right angles.
a frame of parallel metal bars used for grilling meat or fish over an open fire.
a frame of parallel beams for supporting a ship in dock.
a field for football, marked with regularly spaced parallel lines.
another term for grid.

I had previously indicated water loops which were circular. Now of course I am going "Square".

We can see circular loops in this post: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 59#p204659 Post #737:

So, I guess a new drawing is needed.............

So, until a better proposal arrives, we can consider using multiple instances of this to set on top of the Canals:

Water Resources on Mars: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 15#p204715
https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/mars-ice- … e-superior

Quote:

Scientists examined part of Mars' Utopia Planitia region, in the mid-northern latitudes, with the orbiter's ground-penetrating Shallow Radar (SHARAD) instrument. Analyses of data from more than 600 overhead passes with the onboard radar instrument reveal a deposit more extensive in area than the state of New Mexico. The deposit ranges in thickness from about 260 feet (80 meters) to about 560 feet (170 meters), with a composition that's 50 to 85 percent water ice, mixed with dust or larger rocky particles.
At the latitude of this deposit -- about halfway from the equator to the pole -- water ice cannot persist on the surface of Mars today. It sublimes into water vapor in the planet's thin, dry atmosphere. The Utopia deposit is shielded from the atmosphere by a soil covering estimated to be about 3 to 33 feet (1 to 10 meters) thick.

I don't expect all mid-latitude ice deposits to be the same nor to I understand what the deposits in the Valles Marinaris are like. But we can guess on possible canal sizes possible.

To make sure that we have better chances of success, we will presume the outer "Nest of Water" of the canals will be kept relatively close to 32 degrees F / 0 degrees C. But we may "Nest" containers/capsules that have warmer contents inside of the "Outer Nest Water".

In reality we might deviate from freezing water, but I want to make sure that the readers can have faith that the icy permafrost under the canals will hold the water contents from sinking into the soil below. So the canals might be this deep/large:

The deposit ranges in thickness from about 260 feet (80 meters) to about 560 feet (170 meters), with a composition that's 50 to 85 percent water ice, mixed with dust or larger rocky particles.

As for the non water content we will collect it and use it to make berms on the edges of the canal, and also to make packed Earth Habitations in the parts between canals.

A very rough approximation of pressure can be made for fresh water on Mars, as 1 foot = (About 10 millibars). So, if the canals were 260 to 560 feet deep, then pressures of 2600 to 5600 millibars or 2.6 to 5.6 Bars, an extreme approximation. If the canals were dug that deep.
That does look like overkill though. The canals would likely be as wide as they would be deep, at least.

At least at first, perhaps it would be better to not be so ambitious. Shallower canals may do, at first, and eventually the really big ones.

Packed Earth Habitation....... The deposit ranges in thickness from about 260 feet (80 meters) to about 560 feet (170 meters), with a composition that's 50 to 85 percent water ice, mixed with dust or larger rocky particles.

So, makeup water can be gotten by extracting water from holes, and then putting habitations in them and then packing soil into them.

It is one possibility.

Need a pause.

Before I go. The organics to be grown in the canals may provide building materials and Hydrocarbon chemicals like Tar, and solvents and fuels. And of course, Oxygen.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-18 11:11:26)

Void · 2023-01-18 11:51:01

From "Index» Science, Technology, and Astronomy» Working with plastics." Post #1
Quote:

The administrators may do as they please here with this.
This was the video I wanted to pull up, but apparently it is not available anymore: "+utube, Roads of the future are here, Innovative Techs"
General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=%2butube% … &FORM=RCRE
Roads from recycled plastics:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQW6j4Xhrfo
Here is a newer one perhaps: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfzNmonp1uM
I guess the notion of the one I could not fetch was that they are actually fishing plastics out of the oceans and also recycling plastics into roads. I cannot say how good those roads are, but I can get paranoid the control freaks will dispute it if they can. Their goal has never been so much a concern about fixing problems. Rather like lampreys, they want to rasp on problems so they can do a vampire move on the general population they wish to farm.
In any case I intend to bring this to terraforming, as concerns for Earth are not the same as those for Mars.
It does suggest a future where if you can create plastics from CO2 in the air from biology, then those plastics might be OK to include into roads, at least on Mars.
Done.

So, this may help me to get over one of my biggest peeves. Yes, it is paranoid like, but some time ago I suggested building moisture retaining greenhouses in the desert. It might not have been practical in the method I suggested, but it was a try.

What happened next was a worldwide panic about plastics.

Yes, my reaction is paranoid. I cannot actually be about me. But it was very annoying.

In the above quote is some notion of redemption. So, I will pursue it. A newer version.

First of all, we have the actual need to solve problems, but we have another obstacle, in that people who make a living feeding on the population of humans, need political footballs so that they can create bondage of words, and extort money and power by them.

So, that is human nature, and we have had to do battle with them over the generations. They are more often excessively verbal people with either a psychopathic nature or perhaps they are just not aware of what they are doing in many cases.

Resistance of Plastics to Salts: (Surprisingly good actually): https://www.corzan.com/blog/how-well-do … ll%20salts.
Quote:

Plastics Compatibility with Salts Conversely, plastics are inert to salts, which means floating ions pass right over the material without any negative effects. All plastics are inherently resistant to all salts.

So, my recent thinking has been in the direction of salty bodies of water, typically salt lakes. But fresh water may do.

So, The Great Salt Lake, The Aral Sea, The Dead Sea, The Salton Sea, and I am sure there are others, Lake Van in Turkey? It might even be possible to work with the Carson Sink, or with manufactured salt lakes in the deserts.

So, I think it is unlikely that if this idea has merit that it will be stopped by local Ecotopians, as people elsewhere will not necessarily obey. The idea should be worked on by environmentalists who are not false, but I have explained why some political groups do not want problems solved. They want to feed on them.

Alright, here it might be. Place transparent plastic bags in a salt lake. Filled with water. Control the qualities of the water, such as PH, and salinity, nutrients. Grow a favored organism in the bags. (You may have to put sand in the bags to make them sink to the bottom of a shallow lake for instance).

Now, burn organic matter, either produced organic mass or fossil fuels. Push the output into the bags. Get an almost pure Oxygen out, use the high Oxygen content gas to burn organic matter and fossil fuels.

This may not affect the amount of water in the lake if done right.

We will be trying to reduce/eliminate the non-Oxygen gasses from being exhausted to atmosphere, and we are not heating up large quantities of Nitrogen during combustion, so that is an energy savings.

Sensible management of the lake will have variable costs for river water that goes into the lake If the lake surface falls then buyers have to be charged more. If the lake gets too high, preces should be reduced, maybe even people might be paid to consume the water by using it for irrigation in that case.

Putting plastic canopies over lakes to hold moisture, is another issue. It perhaps requires much further analysis. But such might work for the Carson Sink and places like it?

Of course, I can have my limits on burdening nature as well. As I say that needs to be looked into and maybe some small experiments done.

As for Mars having a very high Oxygen output may be an encouragement towards burning things that come out of the canals. Organic matter.

And you also have Perchlorates on Mar and might collect them or you may make them.

I believe we have a Dr. that is very knowledgeable about such things, and we have a Calliban also.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-18 12:22:11)

Void · 2023-01-18 19:25:12

So, if the game is to move regolith around, it might as well have some processing to see if things of value could be extracted.

So, I will chase that around for a bit.

Query: "Extracting clay from soil" I am not certain it can be done on Mars, but I will see if it can be chased a bit.

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Extractin … 8d6b94e0e7

OK, I will listen and read: https://www.judygreenepottery.com/how-t … re%20items

Well, it would not hurt to try.

Query: "Is there clay in Martian soils?"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Is+there+ … 41f59d9a23

http://tomatosphere.letstalkscience.ca/ … -mars.aspx
Quote:

Yes
According to 2 sources
The mineral matter in Martian soil comes from weathered volcanic rock. It has clay and silt-sized particles, but it is overall a sandy soil. There is also a thin surface layer of very small dust particles. The soil has a reddish colour because it contains a lot of iron oxides (rust).
Tomatosphere - Tomatosph…
tomatosphere.letstalkscience.ca
Soil is a type of regolith. Scientists commonly refer to Martian “soil” despite this technical difference. The mineral matter in Martian soil comes from weathered volcanic rock. It has clay and silt-sized particles, but it is overall a sandy soil.
Tomatosphere - Tomatosph…
tomatosphere.letstalkscience.c

I am sure we want to get clay for various things including bricks I would suppose.

As long as we are doing that, what about salts?

Query: "What are the salts in Martian soil"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=What+are+ … 2868287a3f

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 20nitrates.
There is, but I do not see a mention of Perchlorates.

So, anyway the collection of substances like clays and chemicals like salts should be worthwhile.

I have been looking to see if we could use a sort of tar as a mortar for bricks. I have been getting annoyed. I suppose I can say maybe???
https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com … ter-mortar

Mars is not expected to get hot enough to melt the tar we might use. But I am getting annoyed on the conversation which is mostly not helpful.

It is better to take a break than to be broken, I guess.

Done.

Resuming....

I wonder about the iron in the soil, can it be recovered for steel? Or at least Calliban's pig iron.

https://science.nasa.gov/science-news/s … terial.%22
Not entirely happy with this:

March 3, 1999: A metal-making process known to the ancient Romans could be pressed into service to bring Mars into the Iron Age - and start opening the solar system to human habitation.
"If you look at the soil composition of Mars, the one thing that really strikes you is that it's 5 to 14 percent iron oxide," said Dr. Peter Curreri, a materials scientist at NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center. "It's almost ore-grade material."

https://www.instructables.com/A-simple- … xide-magn/

OK, so this looks fairly good: https://patents.google.com/patent/EP055 … 20monoxide.

Another: https://patents.google.com/patent/CN103643032A/en

This really looks good: https://www.911metallurgist.com/magneti … lean-ores/
Quote:

magnetic roasting of lean ores
by

So, if materials are to be moved around to construct canals and underground buildings, it would make sense to get as many useful materials as possible before packing the "Tailings" in to the structure of the Canals, and buildings.

Good enough then.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-18 20:36:12)

Void · 2023-01-19 11:11:20

Where I have had a strong look at solar energy into bodies of water, we really don't know how solar power and interior lighting technologies may progress. So, the question will be answered later, which methods are better. Probably some of each may be done, but whichever path is more productive will be emphasized.

So, I feel I have tried to offer some options, but this is not a binary contest, where I am to have my ego fed by trying to be the "Winer".

Whatever pays off is what I would want, if I were to be there.

Maybe the inhabitants will want some of this: https://www.nasa.gov/feature/langley/a- … red-planet

That's fine. Why not?

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-01-19 11:12:40)

Void · 2023-01-19 12:29:41

So, I will grab this as a reference from post #7 of: "Index» Science, Technology, and Astronomy» Working with plastics."
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 58#p205258

This would possibly involve bags of plastic in canals create on Mars. In general, the expectation is to work with optically manipulated solar light, but I do not want to exclude the possibility of artificial light. Artificial lights may make more sense to produce food and Oxygen than to produce a fuel and Oxidizer for burning.

Where you could use bags as farming capsules in the canals, if you simulate sea water you can have algae that clings to the ice. If you create a fresh water environment simulation in northern winter, you can farm that type of algae.

The point is that for combustion, the algae does not have to be something that can be eaten.

So, the question is could you build a solid rocket booster using a mix of Perchlorate Salts and Algae? I am guessing you can but it might kill you.

Can you do a Wood Gas internal combustion engine using algae instead of wood? Maybe: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ru … &FORM=VIRE

Your Oxidizer could be a cryogenic liquid with high Oxygen content.

But can you heat up Perchlorates in a system to provide the Oxygen? Maybe.

I am wondering what a "Wood Gas" engine might run like with high Oxygen.

Less energy going out as heated Nitrogen, maybe a better combustion process.

If you could do something like a Raptor engine where you have a chamber to partially burn the organic materials to produce the fuel, and then feed some of that into the Perchlorate to produce a hot Oxygen stream.

Maybe.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-19 12:45:17)

Void · 2023-01-19 13:42:46

If we do intend to inhabit Mars, I think Ice Algae is something we will want to understand very well.

Symphagic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sympagic_ecology

Query: '"Symphagic ice algae"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Symphagic … A1&PC=U531

So, it also appears that ice algae can occur in fresh water but is a bit different, maybe preferring a slush under the ice layer.
Lake Baikal, perhaps?

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Lake+Baka … 645da70100

Images: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=la … RE&first=1

https://www.naturepl.com/search/preview … 60364.html Image Quote:

Baikal was once salt water I believe and connected to the sea. So, it is no surprise that sea organism have adapted to fresh water in it over time. It might be a good resource for organisms for Mars.

But if we build canals, those could simulate sea water or fresh water. Probably some of each, and maybe some solar salt ponds as well.

Good to know, I think this is the easiest level of farming that may be possible on Mars.

A few feet of ice may provide sufficient conditions for Algae, and of course that ice has to be protected from evaporation and being covered in dust.

Actually, open water is possible, particularly for cold salt water but then what does the Algae cling to?

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-19 13:59:14)

Void · 2023-01-19 20:17:04

I have had a new notion sort of. Vertical Submarines that bob up and down in a Martian Lake.

It might not be as silly as that. sounds.

I have been considering Lake Bonney and Lake Vanda of Antarctica.

As I recall, the top water under the ice is about 2 times as salty as the sea, and the water further down is even saltier.

So, could we create similar in one of the canals, and just find a way to get rid of the ice?

Now this will need a dome over the canal/lake, to hold moisture and to keep dust out.

So, the top waters have too not be too evaporative. Here is the calculator. http://endmemo.com/chem/vaporpressurewater.php

Polar seawater begins to freeze at -1.9 C, so the needed vapor pressure, if you had seawater simulant at -1.9 degrees C is 5.2646 millibar, which is less than the average surface pressure of Mars at this time.

The estimated limits of Photosynthesis that we study seems to be -20 degrees C, so 1.2230 millibar.
I don't know if two times the saltiness of the sea would be enough to keep that liquid though, so lets just say a temperature between -1.9 and -20 degrees C is what we would use for the surface water.

As a dome will be over the water, probably an inflatable one of plastic, we do not have appreciable wind to mix the water. (A good thing).

Both Lake Bonney and Lake Vanda have temperatures at their bottom of about 20 degrees C, maybe a little more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Bonney_(Antarctica)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Vanda
Quote:

There are three distinct layers of water ranging in temperature from 23 °C (73 °F) on the bottom to the middle layer of 7 °C (45 °F) and the upper layer ranges from 4–6 °C (39–43 °F).[5] It is only one of the many saline lakes in the ice-free valleys of the Transantarctic Mountains.

I believe that the stratification for Lake Vanda is from fresh water flowing in in the short summer river season, and the rejection of brines from the ice in the winter. The brines probably fall to the bottom. The lake appears to be a natural solar collector.

To maintain such a water structure on Mars we would likely use distillation methods to create the salt gradients, and supplemental heating and cooling of water layers as needed.

So, the building would have lots of windows on the top, so that one might look out at the sky though the window and the dome, and perhaps also have some ability to see the surrounding landscape.

It would actually be a air filled diving bell type thing which could project above water at times or submerge deeply if it is needed/desired.

There are many possible variations. Some might allow it to "Land" on an airlock at the bottom of the lake and allow a dry passage of people. But you might also use swimming methods at the bottom where the temperatures are warm.

Reasons to submerge would be to exchange passengers, or if there is a radiation storm from the sun, or if the windows at the top leak.
Leaking windows might actually drop the structure down in the water as the ballast air was blown out. This might save lives.

While the inside of the dome might frost over at night, a defrost function might recover the water of it as distilled and useful, in the mornings.

I thought it would be nice to have such a method to help people feel that they were not cave men/women.

Thats plenty.

Nite.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-01-19 20:59:04)

Void · 2023-01-20 10:47:53

What I just mentioned in the last post was a deviation from my previous paths. Generally, I have been seeking bulk productivity of material goods. But if we achieve that, (We are being us imagining a possible reality), then at some point how can we design premium stuff, while minimizing the dangers of overextending carelessly into a hostile environment.

I have mostly been hiding from UV radiation, and other forms of damage. This typically leads to underground and underwater methods.
So, I am venturing to be a little more amphibious, and giving trust that people like Calliban and others can give us other cards to play, such as inflatable domes anchored to the ground. While I have given an example of a very low-pressure dome, I also look forward to higher pressure domes, but feel they will indeed be more expensive and may need methods to give additional hazard protection methods.

In truth I am more excited at this time for the new spacecraft designs that are perhaps within 5 years of becoming real.

A social problem we will have with the verbal and violent, is that as they see motion, they will try to establish estates of control and extortion and even as they have done before locking our dream children into dungeons to torment and kill.

Really in a certain part it is like a quiet place. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Quiet_Place
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=A+ … &FORM=VIRE

They are a social mistake that we have to deal with. They do not understand but want to control and extract power and wealth.

It can take the form of social sexual manipulations, or now it seems environmentalism. Yes, we need regulations, but we need to be concerned when power and control and extortion become dominant over prudent practice enforcements.

I think we will be OK. We will lose some dreams along the way. That is how the predator/prey relationship works. I don't think that humans are best as top predators. We are best as generalists, but of course specialization, which is for insects, does sometimes lead to profit.

But we need to be shy about taking the devil's candy. I guess I am saying that we cannot afford to allow the Verbal and Violent to have complete victory against the expansion of human capabilities. If they have their way we will end up as meat for them to eat essentially, all of our dream turned into their poo.

But we have great chances of making it, I think.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-20 11:02:33)

Void · 2023-01-20 11:27:47

This is kind of fun, things could be borrowed from it.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=Sustainab … 6d8f8fbcfe

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Su … &FORM=VIRE

Quote:

Sustainable Arctic DOME HOME recycles water & grows food!
YouTube506K views5 months agoby Tiny House Giant Journey

Not exactly suitable for Mars, but actually the concept does a bit resemble what I was recently projecting.

When in hostile climates layering is a possible factor that could be useful.

Most people from less harsh areas, particularly it seems at least in the USA, tend not to think of layering. But it is getting better.

In my case I have just recently thought of a vertical submarine home that floats in a solar pond on Mars, and has a dome over it. It can sink down to mate with structures embedded in the bottom of the pond or canal.

Obviously the richer the Martian economy could become, the better could be afforded such things. It is at least fun to think about.

So, they have done something similar.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-20 11:33:50)

Void · 2023-01-20 12:41:44

This is of course me wasting time when I could be attending to more important things, but it is my behavior:

A vertical sub A-B-C floats in E to penetrate into the air of outer dome D.

If C develops an air leak, automation will assist submergence and docking to F.

The loss of air from the sub A-B-C will also cause submergence. Hopefully not a crash into F.

During a leakage event the people in C may jump into and swim down A, which is to have temperate water, and also breathing methods at levels that allow survival.

Perhaps if we have Navy Sub people here they can advise.

An anchored Calliban inspired dome D, allows for a water environment to exist for the sub to float in.

The surface water heated in the sun may evaporate/boil, but we can make that an asset by compressively condensing that into distilled water that may be useful. That may in fact be valuable.

Certainly not perfection.

The notion is that most canals will be for basic agriculture and to generate Oxygen. But some may have a different purpose, and would be more expensive, but may serve human material and spiritual needs. You should be able to have sunlight, the outer dome may be hard to keep clean. Maybe you could see starlight a bit at night.

The Pool E might have salt gradients, so that the bottom water is warmer than the top. In that case you might swim in the bottom even if the top is of a very low pressure. But as it would be heavy brine, you need weights or you will float up and die from depressurization, unless it is 333 mb and you don't get the bends.

Good Enough.

Done.

Think of the diagram as schematic and not an engineering drawing. It is not proportioned enough to be as real life. It is a side cross section.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-20 12:53:55)

Void · 2023-01-21 17:54:26

I will start this post with this material: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10417

Neither Cycling Spaceships or Ballistic Capture can get any traction with the other membership.

That is their business to do or not. But it does not pay for me to post in isolation where it was, as it will simply be lost and forgotten there.

As it turned out I realized that "Pollution" from ships lifting propellants up to orbit and then dropping the ship down though the atmosphere may have real potential to enhance greenhouse effects for Mars, so for that reason also I move this back to here.

And as it happens the Stokes Spaceship seems to be a bit of a fit for that reason as well.

This was already becoming abandoned, so here it can continue: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 22#p204822

They don't seem to contemplate it for Mars, but I am thinking that it might be a good fit, probably a ship derived from it.

I recall Dr. Robert Zubrin saying that a rocket that breathed air might preform better. At least I recall that, I cannot prove it. It is not so much that the Martian atmosphere would "Burn", but that it would add mass to the rocket plume. So, then this could be an opportunity to create greenhouse gasses during that process, by adding some chemicals. It may be possible that some Nitrous Oxide might form.

At some point the rocket might exhaust Sulfur Dioxide, high in the atmosphere. It is not a greenhouse itself, but can stimulate clouds, and so then perhaps a water vapor greenhouse effect. This might be wanted up high.

This is almost there: https://lunarpedia.org/w/In-Situ_Propel … e%20launch.
Quote:

Sulphur
Another proposed solution is to use sulphur as a propellant, in what is sometimes referred to as a "Brimstone Rocket". Sulfur melts at about 115 °C, which could be easily achieved by preheating the fuel tank before launch. Burning this molten sulphur with liquid oxygen would produce sulphur dioxide as exhaust, with a specific impulse of around 285 seconds. Sulphur is present in the lunar regolith in much higher quantities than both hydrogen and carbon, some mare soils containing as much as .27% by weight.[3]. In addition, unlike hydrogen and carbon, sulphur compounds may be extractable by magnetic benefication rather than heating the regolith, greatly reducing both the complexity and energy requirements of gathering them.

It appears that there is a lot of Sulfur on Mars: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 1918000064

OK, Sulfur Dioxide could lead to the nucleation of clouds. On Earth low clouds cool the planet. High clouds warm it. So, if there were some way to inject the Sulfur Dioxide where it is wanted. Maybe a small solid rocket of Sulfur and Perchlorates, could be set off at altitude to do the job and give some extra push.

Rocket exhaust can be expected to insert moisture into the atmosphere, if it uses Hydrogen or Methane.

Active cooling using water or Methane may also insert water vapor into the atmosphere.

Another way to draw humidity into the upper atmosphere could be microwave beams either from orbit or from the ground or both.

I'm tired, and I have "Saved" the materials that matter so goodnight.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-21 18:26:50)

Void · 2023-01-22 12:24:40

So, a guess the question of how to manipulate the Martian atmosphere would rely on what is in the moons of Mars.

https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/moons/mars … %20Orbiter.
Quote:

They are among the darker objects in the solar system. The moons appear to be made of carbon-rich rock mixed with ice and may be captured asteroids.

So, really how true? How convenient to access?

So, that might be discovered in time.

But if the moons were not there, what can be done?

My intent is to bend the chemical reality of the Martian atmosphere while, using transportation devices. Transportation devices tend to have hot engine parts, and they may travel though the Martian atmosphere, so it is possible to induce various chemical reactions that may assist in the warming of the planet.

Greenhouse gasses are one thing, and high cloud cover is another. https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucedormi … 27f0d371aa
Quote:

High-Altitude Clouds Likely Enabled Early Lakes And Rivers On Mars

As you might know I want things in the orbit of Mars, and I want Semi-Cyclers that use Ballistic Capture to pin themselves to Martian orbit for a period of time.

So, that suggests, also the physical communication of objects between the orbits of Mars and the surface of Mars.
Rockets most likely tethers possibly.

In "The Martian" the vehicle to ascend to orbit was modified to only have a canopy over it, as the Martian atmosphere is quite thin.

So, I am thinking that although a SSTO for Mars would be grand, it would also be nice to put such a vehicle on top of a 1st stage. To "Get On With It!", 1st and 2nd stages each perhaps a bit like flying saucers.

My reason is that each of these alone might be point to point vehicles for Mars, but then when stacked might efficiently get materials to orbit.

A flying saucer avoids topple, and only at the start of the launch would it have to do blunt into the atmosphere.

As for point to point travel, then you get the opportunity to have them ingest Martian atmosphere and add chemicals, a catalyze the production of desired chemicals.

So, I anticipate the desire to travel. In this method of travel to access the upper Martian atmosphere, and so the opportunity to alter it to an advantage.

That's enough. It is Sunday after all.

Rest.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-22 12:53:37)

Void · 2023-01-23 21:09:26

I guess I will run with this now: https://phys.org/news/2023-01-rubble-pi … stroy.html Quote:

JANUARY 23, 2023
'Rubble pile' asteroids nearly impossible to destroy, study suggests
by Curtin University

Quote:

"The huge impact that destroyed Itokawa's monolithic parent asteroid and formed Itokawa happened at least 4.2 billion years ago. Such an astonishingly long survival time for an asteroid the size of Itokawa is attributed to the shock-absorbent nature of rubble pile material.
"In short, we found that Itokawa is like a giant space cushion, and very hard to destroy."

So, I am guessing that Phobos and Deimos may have some similar qualities. But we have lots to learn about them.

But I am going to venture that these moons having some fluid qualities may be tidally influenced by Mars mascon's.

It is very possible that much of the moons are composed of ancient Mars crust, but that may have been not necessarily like the current Mars crust, but perhaps resembling Carbonaceous materials. It may be that I am wrong.
I really don't care. I feel it is likely that it includes more than Martian crust materials.

There is no gain in getting into arguments about it when the right thing to do is to further examine those moons.

They are certain to contain Oxygen, likely will contain Carbon, and just might have some Hydrogen.

And this could make it all the more sensible to have a look at them to see how they might fit into a semi cycler transport and also electric cargo transport method(s).

Now we do have this concept for making habitat from rubble asteroids, and the moons of Mars are similar to them.
https://newatlas.com/space/space-habitat-ring-plan/
Image Quote: ?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnewatlas-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2F0c%2Fe7%2F1bf75795423681c18b5f25c5abfd%2Ffea-asteroid-base.jpg

So, if you made that the shape of a footballs spinning on it's long axis, you could make a radiation shield, and be able to land spacecraft inside it. Eventually perhaps have spinners inside of it, perhaps composed of Starships.

If you needed special materials like Hydrogen, you could get that from Mars. At first perhaps water and CO2 from Mars, but over time begin to process the materials of the moons to assist the refilling of semi cyclers.

I think that Buzz Aldrin may have had the idea of a cycler that could park in Martain orbit for a time.

It is a pretty good plan, and I think it could be made great.

But it is getting late,

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-23 21:29:04)

Void · 2023-01-24 11:30:48

I think of interest is that Semi-Cyclers would use gravitation of a more outer planet to be captured into the momentum of that planet.

And then in the case of Mars<>Earth, the momentum of Earth would be transferred in small part to a gravitational pass device.

I wonder, can there be a benefit of unpinning mass from the Moon, and having that join with an incoming Semi-Cycler, prior to its Oberth maneuver around the earth to swing out to Mars? I don't have anything practical or necessary for it, I just wonder about it.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-24 11:34:19)

Calliban · 2023-01-25 06:01:42

Using a cycler would actually increase the total dV requirements of a mission, given that a classic hohmann trajectory cannot be used. But it could substantially reduce the mass requirements of human transfer between planets and would greatly improve comfort. A small taxi can be used to transfer people from LEO to cycler and then cycler to LMO. Freight would travel seperately on a more standard hohmann trajectory.

One problem with a classic cycler is that many years may pass between suitabe planetary encounters. If you board the cycler close to Earth, it may be 4-6 years before reaching Mars. One way of improving the economic utility of a cycler is to use it to reach multiple targets. If the apogee is greater than Mars semi major axis, then the cycler can also be used to access inner belt asteroids. Its orbit will also cross the orbit of many Near Earth Asteroids. A single cycler can facilitate access to many different end points.

A cycler crossing the orbit of Venus could facilitate manned missions to Mercury. Such a vehicle would seem to be a neccesity for these missions, as astronauts will need protection from solar radiation during transit.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-01-25 06:04:20)

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