Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Calliban · 2022-05-02 08:41:00

Void wrote:

Jeff Bezos has suggested that to colonize Mars try camping for a long period of time on top of Mt. Everest. Sort of valid, but also not.,
The Finns have suggested artificial habitats for Ceres: https://earngurus.com/scientist-propose … ccupation/
Picture Quote: https://img.ibxk.com.br/2021/01/20/2019 … .jpg?w=704
Good stuff.
But a suggest that a "Common Stator" be used to connect most items, so that perhaps you could go to the various centrifuge devices without a spacesuit in most cases. Most of it would have acceptable life support.
Now "Near Mars" is closer to us than Mars, and it contains mass in low g collection. So this could be even better than Ceres.
Where "Far Mars" may be like Mt. Everest and Antarctica to some degree, with this technology and solar concentrating mirrors, "Near Mars" is by far a better place to settle than Ceres, CIS Lunar Space, or "Far Mars". With the exception that CIS Lunar space has the resource of virtual labor from Earth.
That is my current opinion.
Done.

Interesting work from the Finnish guy. In terms of providing living space that meets exact human needs of gravity, sunlight levels and temperature, the space colony work of Gérard O'Neil has been with us for nearly fifty years now.

In terms of benefits of this type of space colonisation, it is technically easy to produce Earth analogue environments in rotating steel pressure cylinders. Within limits, these can be whatever human beings choose to make of them.

The downsides: (1) Every cubic metre of habitat must be created at the expense of building a pressure shell, whose mass scales directly with volume; (2) The fatigue life of such structures is finite. How long will a pressure-shell space colony last? Decades, centuries? (3) The mass of shielding needed is about 3000kg/m2. If you have to ship that from anywhere, it could end up getting dear. So these types of space colonies could be expensive and they may not last very long.

One way of bringing down cost is to make them compact, as cost scales with both volume (shell thickness) and surface area (shielding). But doing that may mean losing the benefits of an open-air type environment. The habitat would start to feel less like a world and more like a building. The fatigue life problem could be partially solved by making tensile members replaceable and redundant, I.e. prestressed cables and tendons. How far we would need to compromise will depend upon how cheap it is to build these things. Having a low gravity asteroid near by, with all the resources needed, would be a good start.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-05-02 08:47:48)

Void · 2022-05-02 09:06:57

I appreciate your participation Calliban. I would begin to reply by pointing out that for any machines we may build fatigue will occur with time, and that more or less in some proportion to stresses on the materials.

So, any base on Mars, or building on Earth, will be liable for fatigue.

The environment of space could be more or less a source of fatigue than the environment on the surface of Mars or below Mars.

I understand that the ISS has fatigue as it cycles quite often into the shadow of Earth. Also materials will degrade with radiation and other factors, with the passage of time. Some methods may be available to avoid some of that, such as protective replaceable coverings or an orbit that does not put the object periodically in shadow???

And also periodic recycling may be possible.

The Finnish notion is very good. It plays to the probability that Ceres has a complete palate of materials and a low gravity field.

However if you consider Mars+Phobos+Deimos+(Materials you could bring in with the solar wind), the palate looks good also. And for Mars, you have an atmosphere, so you can get some of those chemicals such as Nitrogen as a gas from the atmosphere. Argon as well.

And for "Near Mars", you can aero burn to orbit from interplanetary space. You cannot do that for Ceres. For Mars you can also do a "Ballistic Capture". Maybe you can do it for Ceres, but Ceres has a smaller gravity well.

O'Neil was a thought parent. But that does not require us to not build on the materials provided by that parent. I am thinking mostly Toroid structures not cylinders. And Toroid's inside of Toroid's.

As for materials, we have Phobos and Deimos for the bulk. Likely Carbon from them as well as Metals, Oxygen, and Silicates? From Mars then lift Nitrogen. Maybe Hydrogen, if none in the two moons.

As for lifting masses of materials from the Moon, the Moon has materials and energy. With robots, the labor issue is strongly changed. The solar wind can move the created objects to Mars or NEO's as may be useful and desired.

As for the NEO's to Mars? Well, I suspect that less of that would be done. Mostly if the NEO was a threat to Earth, then maybe. But again we don't know the future. It might be that you take 50 years with a plasma bubble to move a NEO to Mars orbit. By that time it may have been transformed into machinery.

In a robotic economy the notions of cost are going to be very different.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-02 09:24:24)

Void · 2022-05-02 12:30:13

Reviewing again from post #195: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-XlWP4Q4Ds

They suggest a ring robot that can build torus enclosures.

I got excited about that as I think it is possible to next rings inside of rings, as my recent posts have spoken about.

In fact I feel that for a mega-civilization it might be possible to have a ring of rings, with nested rings inside.

So, then typically having a much smaller role for space suits and air locks for human presence in space.

The total amount of rings? Well could you have a chain of rings around the sun? Of course why?

Is there a point where enough is enough? Satisfaction?

Or is it "Rings all the way up!" instead of "Turtles all the way down!"

Done.

Void · 2022-05-02 20:07:22

The process of rendering Martian moons to a large degree into habitats should liberate significant amounts of Oxygen, which could be included to the Martian atmosphere. And of course, during that process also a global magnetic field could be put into place. This would be much more rewarding than to do the same with our Moon, but of course it is not a reason not to it to our Moon.

Such a level of orbital infrastructure would not only provide an immense amount of habitat for humans, but also mirrors for terraforming.

So, indeed, Mars as part White (Ice), and Green (Vegetation). The icy parts would also have light put int them for plant growth. It could really be a great world, along with its orbital assets.

I just wondered if it would be possible to manufacture a hollow moon, that from the surface of the planet would resemble ours. It would be habitat inside, and it could not pull tides, but it would possibly help Earth wildlife to adapt to the planet.

Perhaps it would be built of a sphere of Toroid air filled habitats. Just a notion. Not a requirement.

I think that having a mixed microgravity and 1g, .38 g scheme in orbit would be rather beneficial for the future of humans where perhaps over time humans may become more and more adapted to low gravity. The small worlds of the solar system and beyond will mostly have low gravity.

I am wondering about Bamboo in zero g. Bamboo was introduced to me by the members here as an idea some time ago.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-02 20:14:26)

Void · 2022-05-03 10:46:06

The adjustments to my thinking come from learning from the discoveries that other people have published. On occasion, I might try to add some low-level item from myself.

So the view now, is that micro-gravity is going to be likely to be very big in orbital situations for industrial activities.
Also, agriculture of some types is likely to be possible in micro-gravity.

So, the demand for synthetic gravity will mostly center around human health and comfort.

However, it may be that there are some low gravity simulations that will have value also for industry and agriculture.
I think that that is mostly unknown. If so, the Moon itself should be a 1st choice for it's use, if possible.

Thermally induced fatigue is an issue that matters, as Calliban has brought up recently.

So, at this time, my opinion is that space habitats should possibly be made to be sun facing, without being occulted by a planet, if possible, and hosting nested internal centrifuges, and also hosting attached external enclosed centrifuges.

I have been traveling in this direction prior to this, this was made for some other topic:

It is a possible way that a centrifuge to go up to 1 g if needed could be nested inside of a stator frame. In that drawing I mentioned a "Null Frame" that is much the same as a stator, and such a "Null Frame" stator could be like this, which is from a previous post: OK, sort of like this:

This then would be an external centrifuge in it's housing:

In general I have used pink to suggest stator housing, and blue to suggest internal centrifuges, and green to suggest external centrifuges.

While free floating unattached devices would of course be allowed, I generally want to avoid the necessity of space suits and transfer vessels to go between sub part of the total habitations.

So all of this would be intended to reduce thermal fatigue of shells, and also to minimize the amount of "Floor Space" required for high g health needs.

In post #198, I have suggested this, "PEROIDIC GRAVITATION SIMULATION", to hope to cope with micro-gravity diseases.

This might be enough for muscles and bones.

But I also have suggested that the inner ear signaling be intercepted/modified to handle nausea.

I would also suggest that eventually there could be developed some auxiliary blood path system which could be of biological and/or mechanical parts, that would help cope with blood pooling, if Periodic Gravitation Simulation is not enough.

And then likely some day it might be possible to drill deeper and deeper to essentially tell the body to grow and function as is desire in various gravity simulation or real gravity situations. But that seems to me to be very far off in the future.

We will likely always want some gravity situations, in order for sanitation/cleaning to work out OK for our health and happiness.

Done.

OH!

Yeah, I have been thinking that to fly around in a very large air filled Stator torus, rather than arm associated wings, you might have wings more associated with your legs, as they are much stronger, and you want your arms more for manipulating objects. So, maybe more like diving fins but bigger? How to not let that get awkward???

Of course electric motor propellers might be the thing as well.

Flying between Bamboo trees in microgravity. Interesting vision.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-05 07:38:28)

tahanson43206 · 2022-05-03 14:11:52

For Void re #205...

May I invite your creativity to show a "Bamboo Jungle"

It would seem (to me at least) a possibility in the unfolding of your vision.

(th)

Void · 2022-05-03 18:58:08

Well, thanks for the interest. I suppose because I used to read old SciFi, I can visualize things from words. I am guessing it is not the same as the authors. I do not have an artwork for you. However, yes, I suppose that if a society was wealthy enough, they could have a Jungle.
In the case of the Bamboo, I am simply continuing with the directions that other members set out at some point.

I think they named Bamboo as it had useful qualities.

Some people may be very uncomfortable with what I have been suggesting, as they have historically wanted to see a tight focus on Mars itself, as they felt diversions may damage the effort. I don't think reality is like that now.

Elon Musk has mentioned 1,000,000 people in a Martian city. Spare 5000 for the Moon and 5000 for what I call "Near Mars", and we could see how fertile these options might be without too much damaging that 1,000,000 - 10,000 = 990,000, same gene pool, but perhaps expanded abilities.

This again is very optimistic but who knows? Lets find out: https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/moons/mars … 20diameter.

Quote: Like Earth's Moon, Phobos and Deimos always present the same face to their planet. Both are lumpy, heavily-cratered and covered in dust and loose rocks. They are among the darker objects in the solar system. The moons appear to be made of carbon-rich rock mixed with ice and may be captured asteroids.

So, lets say we work towards some greenhouses in orbit of Mars, which could have Bamboo in them. Keep in mind that this could be done in alternate ways, even if the Moons do not have Carbon and Ice in them.

Gerard K. O'Neil is someone who I consider to have given "Parent thoughts", to what I now give myself. But time and discovery, give reasons to consider modifications to planning, and also alternatives as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerard_K._O%27Neill

Others have donated thinking. Robert as I recall had done investigations into work that was done for growing crops at low air pressures. As I recall 70 millibar or so is about the limit. Something like that. It would kill humans without personal protective equipment. So you could get chincy about cost that way. You could also skimp on radiation protection. And the ISS suggests that you could use low g or even microgravity to grow some plants, perhaps Bamboo? Well, we don't know yet.

For my part I would think that you would go ahead with a atmosphere of choice that was convenient to humans, and with gravity simulation choose what works and yet is less costly. For radiation protection, ideally you would have plenty of slag to make into objects to fasten to the shell of the stator. But if you had to skimp, then you might have a good detection and alarm system for solar flairs, and also a vehicle with a water jacket. I would prefer to be able to fly, but then you might want this "Robot" to be close at hand.

In Martian orbit and with the use of concentrating mirrors you could use heat to process the materials of the moons. Further you could use the European device to get Oxygen from regolith. https://www.newsy-today.com/the-europea … surface%29.
Quote:

The European Space Agency plans to produce the first oxygen on the moon
March 28, 2022 by newsy today

Quote:

This technique involves placing a chandelier in a bowl of molten salt and then passing an electric current through it. In addition to liberating oxygen from its chemical bonds, this process extracts useful metal alloys that astronauts can use as building materials.

Calliban just posted about how microgravity is going to all the creation of new very good materials. I have not found that material, but I am guessing that using microgravity will allow for the creation of good materials to build shells from.

So, in the most optimistic situation, CO2, O2, H20, and Metals will be available along with some slag, I suppose. If you could grow Bamboo, and treat it, perhaps it could be used as a building material on Mars, or perhaps even in orbit. From it you might make paper. Stuff like that.

As for the excess O2, the use it as a propellant in orbit, and if you have a global magnetic field chances are it would mostly end up in the Martian atmosphere, so then this would be a terraform experiment.

Being in orbit you should be able to make mirrors, some of those could be used to draw water vapor up to the upper atmosphere to create clouds for Terra formation purposes.

And if the materials of the moons included CO2, and H20, then you could manufacture rocket fuel, and also greenhouse gasses to inject into the Martian atmosphere.

As I have indicated in the previous posts, if you could make multiple torus, then you might have a chain of them in orbit around Mars. Of course you might prefer to do something else, but it is a thing that can be imagined.

For smiles :)
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Ch … HoverTitle
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view … ajaxserp=0
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/57/81/45 … 34410d.jpg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvFH_6DNRCY

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-03 19:38:19)

Void · 2022-05-04 11:02:38

Stumbled into something today: "SpaceX Reveals New Plans to launch $3.2 Billions Space Factory, "Tech SpaceX"

In a query got these:

Interesting but not strongly related:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Sp … &FORM=VIRE

Strongly Related:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09hASEYySys

The Gateway Spaceport again:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-XlWP4Q4Ds

So then VARDA: https://varda.com/

So, this could be real money.

I am looking at what seems to be emerging. I would think that in many cases, Starship and Falcon 9 would be used to "Upload" mass to orbit. But other means might be developed to "Download manufactured goods from orbit". That is certainly Varda's intentions it seems.

In this pattern, it is required to use a rocket to get materials to orbit, and this requires a spaceport, and in the case of Starship, often offshore spaceports, eventually.

But to "Download" materials, capsules may bring product directly to a preferred location should you involve a drone to pick the capsules out of the air. This would reduce the amount of propellants required to land a Starship.

I believe that Rocket Lab caught and then dropped an electron 1st stage: https://www.tweaktown.com/news/85964/fa … %20mission.

So, they are "Getting there". Eventually instead of a Helicopter, maybe an unmanned drone (Unpersoned, Uncrewed).

So, then you have a parachute involved. But perhaps some day that factor can be reduced or eliminated, maybe just catch the "Capsule"?

So, "The Angry Astronaut", had a recent video about "Dream Chaser".
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Th … M%3DHDRSC3

So, supposing you could catch "Capsules" in the air with a very fast AI drone, could you catch a Pseudo Dream Chaser?

Get rid of the landing gear, and maybe grab it in the engine compartment?

Or, some capsule with greater air navigation abilities?

Hard to say, but perhaps it might be able to ditch in water as a glide, if necessary????

Interestding drift, I feel.

Angry said that Dream Chaser can launch on Falcon 9. Or it is thought possible. I know that SpaceX has its plate full, but one wishes for a Falcon 9 1st stage with Raptors, and Methalox. Then Mutant Dream Chasers become the 2nd stage.

I kind of like the notion.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-04 11:22:48)

Void · 2022-05-04 11:26:37

If the just prior post #208 proves somewhat true to the future, I anticipate that a progression that might be in the favor of what we may want, could occur.

Gateway Spaceport makes it's ring robots that fashion panels into toroidal structures.

While the panels for that at first come exclusively from the Earth, then later, Lunar resources may be involved, and also Lunar Oxygen may be included to LEO and other locations in the Earth/Moon subsystem.

If it is possible to eventually make the panels from Moon resources, then it may be possible to adapt that technology to make them in the "Near Mars" locations mostly using resources from Phobos, Deimos, and perhaps Mars itself ("Far Mars").

In that progression it should be possible to have lots of orbital assets in the "Near Mars" locations which may assist in the further inhabitation of everything in the Martian Gravity well.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-04 11:30:42)

Void · 2022-05-05 05:44:49

I guess this post was going to be self criticism, but I would maybe say modifications instead.

I have previously used other words to describe items up to orbit and down from orbit. I guess we could use "Upload to Orbit", and "Download from Orbit".

I am mostly looking at the "Download" process, but this then indirectly affects the "Upload" process.

I would say that I am thinking of "Assistive Devices" for the download process. Some already exist, and some have apparently been around since the 60-70's era's? Might as well list those first.

The newest one is by SpaceX. It is the "Catcher Tower". I guess you would call that process, an "Assistive Lithobraking" process. I am going t suppose it will have some shock absorption method(s) built into it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithobraking

Previously the legs had the shock absorption function, and had to travel with the rocket. Now the arms are assistive to do it and will not travel with the rocket.

But, now what if you put air breathing engines on something like the launch tower, with assistive arms? Could it fly up while breathing air and catch a booster or the Starship itself, in the troposphere, and bring it down? Granted, we are not ready for this yet. You must crawl before you walk, walk before you run.

But, Rocket Lab is working on it more or less: https://www.popsci.com/technology/rocke … ter-catch/

Ultimately it seems unwise to expose a human to such a danger, but you have to crawl first. Good job!

So, what is the advantage? Well, your booster does not have to carry landing propellants, and so is lighter on launch. And for Starship, it does not have to carry landing propellants to orbit which would be a very big deal. Would I try to land humans that way. Certainly not. Not until it it tried and true for an extremely long testing period of time.

Where Rocket Lab is using a parachute, I would like to see it eventually eliminated. Just one less part to carry and one less part to fail.

In the case of a booster, they typically end up downrange, and now have to either land on a barge and be retrieved, or must carry propellants to fly back "Up range". If you have an airbreathing assistant that can be done away with.

The landing of cargo in an orbital ship might also be modified with capsules that you might catch in the Troposphere. This would reduce landing load of the Starship, and would allow a safer transport of product to less remote locations.

I believe that the military has been catching capsules for a long time, with helicopters. Why not air breathing drones?

And there was this: https://www.wired.com/2004/09/catch-a-f … e-capsule/

My reason to think that capsules might be caught in the troposphere without parachute use, is that drones and AI are advancing and should be expected to continue. An AI might think thousands of times faster than a human? Well, maybe.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-05 06:09:06)

Void · 2022-05-05 06:56:56

I don't so much see that air breathing flying and catching methods could work for Mars as it is. However maybe a terraformed Mars.

However, the things said in recent posts can be continued with, the hopes of a substantial atmosphere for Mars, at a relatively quick rate to achieve?

The general can't-do mantra these days is Mars does not have enough materials for it to be terraformed. Of course I am not sure that is true, as you may get Oxygen from water, and all the Oxygen you want from the rocks. But lets think external sources of Oxygen and perhaps a bit of other things like Carbon.

It seems that the Accretion process for the solar system is far slower now than it was when it originated. I will argue that it seems likely to me that objects in the Oort Cloud may still be condensing matter from interstellar space, provided they are beyond the solar wind.

I believe that on occasion our solar system also drifts into an interstellar cloud, that would accelerate that.

Our NEO population mostly consists of mostly "Dry" objects that the other planets/Jupiter, push into the Earth's way for a time.

While these are thought to contain some water, and perhaps some Carbon, they do definitely contain lots of Oxygen.

I have suggested that the existing moons of Mars could be consumed and converted into "Near Mars" structure in orbit, and that the Oxygen and perhaps some Carbon could be injected indirectly into the "Far Mars" atmosphere, by rocket propulsion. (Magnetic field likely required for "Far Mars", it seems possible to me go collect NEO's and create from them new Martian moons.

So, then there should be a renewable source of atmosphere for Mars.

I have suggested using Magnetic Bubbles to clear the NEO's from being a danger to Earth, and to put them into Martian orbit. I don't know what the limits are for Magnetic Bubble size. I guess it is limited by capabilities for the most part.

What is the value of a chunk of rock, that can generate large amounts of orbital structure, and propulsion mass (Oxygen), and atmosphere, (Oxygen) for an atmosphere for Mars?

Lots of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ and then some I think.

Nice future!

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-05 07:09:44)

Void · 2022-05-05 07:39:11

Well, I am full of it today!

Last seen in post #205: I have been traveling in this direction prior to this, this was made for some other topic:

It has also occurred to me that you could have a "Train" or Disk/Torus in a vacuum chamber inside of a pressurized chamber, where you periodically did a spin up and applied vacuum to the chamber at the same time.

That is fairly obvious. I would like to consider a combination of that and the scheme of the drawing I included above.

The purpose would be to attempt to achieve a convenient form of "PEROIDIC GRAVITATION SIMULATION" mentioned in post #198.

I am thinking that you might rely on the seals and a continuous vacuum pumping in mid gravity simulations. You might allow the vacuum chamber to fill to "Ambient" air pressure in low gravity simulations. You then would have formal airlock door also (Not shown), to allow a 1 g simulation by evacuating down to a higher vacuum.

During Airlock doors closed situations then the "Passengers" would have to stay in the Torus. Otherwise in lower gravity simulations, they could come and go through the hub area as their discression.

So, this could be a 4-8-4-8 rhythm in a 24 hour period.

So each 4 hour period would be mostly at 1 g and with the doors sealed. That would leave two 8 hour periods with low gravity simulation, where you could come and go through the hub. Then you would pick and choose when to exercise or just do daily activities in 1 g, and when to sleep and when to go out into the rest of the collections of habitats.

No promises, but this might allow prolonged human health, without continuous 1 g. That would be the hope anyway.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-05 07:48:46)

Void · 2022-05-05 09:00:22

Well this showed up, I think it is very important:
https://phys.org/news/2022-05-nasa-rock … ecret.html
Quote:

NASA rocket to measure Earth's life-supporting secret: A weak electric field
by Miles Hatfield, NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center
Collinson reviews the instrument during rocket reassembly on site in Svalbard. Credit: NASA Wallops/Brian Bonsteel
Why does Earth support life, while Venus and Mars—and for all we know, any other planet in the universe—do not?

"It's one of the most fundamental questions in all of science: Why are we here? And it's what Endurance is after," said Glyn Collinson, a space scientist at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland, and principal investigator for NASA's Endurance mission.
The Endurance mission will attempt to measure Earth's global electric potential, or how much Earth's electric field "tugs" at electrically charged particles in our air. This electric potential is expected to be very weak, making it difficult to measure—and one reason Earth can support life. Endurance's launch window from the small town of Ny-Ålesund in Svalbard, Norway, opens on May 9.
Earth is a watery planet, one of the key reasons it can support life. Yet billions of years ago, you might have said something similar about Venus. Scientists believe Venus was once much wetter than it is today, but for reasons we still don't fully understand, it has since dried out. Figuring out why could pinpoint a key difference from Earth—and reveal a hidden ingredient for a habitable planet.
In 2016, the European Space Agency's Venus Express mission discovered a clue. The spacecraft detected a 10-volt electric potential surrounding the planet, meaning that positively charged particles would be pulled away from its surface. Like a planet-wide vacuum cleaner, this electric potential could siphon away ingredients of water, like the positively charged oxygen that gets split from its hydrogen atoms by intense sunlight. Over time, this electric potential may have played a role in draining Venus' water away to space.
These findings from Venus, however, raised questions about Earth. Venus' electric potential is created by its ionosphere—the electrically charged outer layer of its atmosphere. But Earth has an ionosphere as well. So does Earth have a similar electric potential, and if so, why is our water still around?

The space environment around a planet plays a key role in determining what molecules exist in the atmosphere — and whether the planet is habitable for life. New NASA research shows that the electric fields around Venus helped strip its atmosphere of the components needed to make water. Credit: NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center, Genna Duberstein
"We think one of the reasons Earth may be habitable is because we have this very weak electrical potential," Collinson said. The Endurance team estimates a strength of about 0.3 volts, some 25 times weaker than on Venus and so weak it has foiled all previous attempts at measurement. "It's not even as strong as a watch battery—but it should be there," Collinson added.

With his team and rocket experiment, Collinson is traveling to the northernmost launch range in the world and located in Svalbard, a Norwegian archipelago in the Arctic Ocean. There his team will launch their experiment through Earth's magnetic north pole.
"We had to invent a brand-new technology to do this on Earth, using the technique we pioneered at Venus," Collinson said.
Once airborne, the Endurance mission will measure electrons escaping from Earth's atmosphere—part of a gradual process of atmospheric escape that's been happening for billions of years. These electrons escape Earth at a specific, predictable speed, but they should be slowed ever so slightly by Earth's global electric potential. Collinson's instruments will attempt to measure that subtle slowing effect to find out how strong it is.
If all goes as planned, it will be the first measurements of Earth's global electric potential.
"The reward, if we're successful, is fantastic," Collinson said. "Because we'll measure this fundamental property of the Earth, which is directly related to understanding why we're here."

So, to make Oxygen stick around on Mars, this would be important. Of course also adding an artificial magnetic field, and cooling off the Martian Sky.

I don't know how to alter the electric field of Mars. Perhaps some day we will.

But for now, cooling off the Martian sky would involve not allowing sunlight to reflect off of Mars back to the sky. Also, orbital devices that shade the upper atmosphere might help. That might not cool off the planet if you then also add light to selected places that will not heat up the Martian sky. Martian winter zones would be a possible place.

But the electric field, that is important. It may be related to atmospheric humidity. I believe that for Venus that is considered to be likely.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-05 09:04:31)

Void · 2022-05-05 09:20:09

Well, that's all starting to look rather good to me.

You build orbital habitat. Those then may shade some of the Martian atmospheric "Hot Spots".

You build a leaky global magnetic field. A leaky field would let the solar wind in to a degree but would not let it lift atmosphere out of the exosphere of the planet. This might let Protons, Hydrogen, and Helium into the atmosphere.

You add reflected light to areas of the planet where the upper sky is cooler, and that might be the winter pole and the night side.

It is possible that if the Relative Humidity of the atmosphere were greater, then the electric field would be reduced, which may reduce atmospheric losses. Heating the planet in certain ways would raise the Relative Humidity. It might also promote snowfall at lower latitudes, which you may or may not like.

Once you have a bit of Oxygen, particularly at higher altitudes you might Ozone, and that would greatly enhance the chances for a biosphere to be possible on the surface.

The leaky magnetic field might also be "Lumpy", so that orbital craft may push and pull on the discreet elements to change orbital characteristics.

Another way to cool the upper Martian atmosphere would be to have heliostats on the surface that would focus on orbital spacecraft to give energy density of photons to them. However, this could go wrong for the upper atmosphere, if they are of a wavelength that gets absorbed by the upper atmosphere molecules.

Pretty much, a lot of this might inhibit dust storms. Rising humidity might promote upper atmosphere clouds which would likely warm the poles more than Hellas, and so the trigger for global dust storms might be disarmed. Also the processing of Martian moons might liberate greenhouse gasses to do similar.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-05 09:28:03)

Void · 2022-05-06 07:58:50

I am going to spit-ball some stuff. I have only shadows of understanding of some things, but I am going to speculate.

I tend to stay here in the basement rubber-room, as I do not want to disrupt discussions that are works by very well educated and practiced people.

So, I am looking at the notion of mass "Upload" and "Download" for Earth and of course also Mars.

The SpaceX Falcon 9 with Dragon is a sort of "Dose-All", (Most), device. Of course, it has crewed and cargo versions, so specialization has been considered a value for it.

Starship, not yet even completed in any version has already been anticipated to have a number of versions for various purposes.

So, I am now thinking of Upload/Download specializations for atmospheric transit methods in general.

It is already seen that a space company has a plan to manufacture low masses of high value product in orbit and then retrieve it to the surface with capsules methods.

So, perhaps there will be Upload Methods and Download Methods, and perhaps those will be done by entirely different "Shipping" methods.

Rocket Lab and Capsule Retrieval Methods seem to be tilted towards the "Download" side. I will try to include a Dream chaser like device as well. Dream Chaser has the value that it may "Distribute" product high quality finished product around the world.

Starship (Current Version & 2.0 (Bigger Version)), would be the "Upload" Function. They are of a character that you cannot fly them out of any airport, you have to have special "Spaceports", and in the future those are likely to be sea bases more than land based.

For Earth, "Upload Mass" is going to far exceed "Download Mass". (For Mars that may be inverted???).

So, in this idea you would not favor the use of Starship to "Download Mass". Rather you would seek to lower it's landing loads, in order to reduce launch burdens. I don't think that an air breathing "Catcher" will be built for Starship at any time in the next several decades. The scale would just be too large, and the benefits unknown.

For download and distribution of high quality product from orbit, however it may be useful to launch a pseudo Dream Chaser type device as an empty crate to orbit. Empty as it will not be as efficient at "Punching" though the Troposphere, as Starship(s) will be, but it will be somewhat better at landing to airports distributed around the world. The Starship has less air friction per volume/mass, the Dream Chaser will have more air friction.

Granted capsules, with parachutes are a option in place of Dream Chaser, and catching them in the Troposphere with an air breathing flying device (Drone), are options for the "Crates".

Dream Chaser as it will be will be an interesting device, capable of complete LEO>Airport all on it's own. I don't know if that can be improved, but I am going to try to suggest a variant of it, that may or may not be of value.

OK, the factor that I have my eye on for the Dream Chaser that I think Capsule/Parachute methods don't do is the "Flare" at the end of flight. The Space Shuttle did it anyway: https://wiki.flightgear.org/Flying_the_ … 0touchdown.
Quote:

At an altitude of about 2000 ft, pull the Shuttle gently into pre-flare, i.e. onto a shallower glideslope aiming at the threshold.

Quote:

At this point, airspeed should decay rapidly. If you started preflare with 340 kt, this is fine, but if your airspeed was much lower, you may have to retract speedbrakes to avoid early touchdown.

Quote:

The orbiter creates a powerful ground effect, so you can let that cushion your sinkrate. At touchdown, vertical speed should be 3-6 ft/sec and may not exceed 9 ft/sec without damaging the gear. To avoid tire damage, speed over ground at touchdown may not exceed 230 kt. The pitch angle at touchdown can not exceed 15 degrees without causing a tailscrape.
Don't relax as touchdown is called out, your work is only halfway done. With the nose gear still up, make sure airspeed is below 230 kt and deploy the drag chute ('c'-key). This is deployed in two stages, so hit the key twice for full effect.

Quote:

Wait for airspeed to reduce to 185 kt, then begin derotation to bring the nose wheel onto the ground. Do it gently - the derotation speed may not exceed 2 deg/s without damaging the nose gear.
If you manage to come in too hard, prepare to deal with asymmetric friction caused by blown tires and / or damaged gear struts. Use ailerons to perform load relief for the damaged side.
Once the nose wheel is on the ground, hit the brakes and use nose wheel steering to stay on the runway. The drag chute will be jettisoned once the Shuttle is slower than 40 kt. Wait for a final call of 'Wheels stop!'
Congratulations - you're home.

So, as I have said perhaps Dream Chaser is "As Good As It Gets". But, maybe to catch this thing with an air breathing device before landing would also be useful. I certainly can't validate that assertion.

I am a bit lost, the Shuttle had a "Ground Effect" on landing. I don't know if you can use that somehow. Anyway, my understanding is that you are playing with "Stalling" when you do this, which can make you end up at a low speed and still having an altitude which rapidly becomes a kill situation unless something were to catch you in mid air.

So, then my notion is to throw out the landing gear on the Dream Chaser, to save costs, and also to simplify the heat shield. The other possible advantage to this system is that if you can do vertical landings with the "Drone" then you don't even need a runway, and also you can unload the assembly and fly it back to a launch facility for re-use.

I don't know the practicality of all this, but it was fun to puzzle out.

There are still some issues with this. You don't want to fop the Dream Chaser down on it's belly onto a drone or the ground, as the heat shield would be damaged. So you have to have a "Grab-Method". The Engine compartment is possible. Possibly on the Leward side, you could have "Grab-Handles".

Alternatively, you might flip the Dream Chaser over somewhere in flight so that it lands on it's roof, if it is to land on a drones surface. I guess that is a bit weird and complicated.

Would I suggest this for Crew? NO!!!!

-------

Mars: For Mars, the ratio of Upload to Download is unknown.

Factors that matter are what do the moons of Mars include? Not Nitrogen or Argon I presume, so if you want that in orbit, then it must come from Mars, for the bulk of it. So then next, what about Hydrogen? Don't know. Carbon? Not sure.

But the Moons most likely include Metals, Oxygen, Silicates, and maybe Carbon and Hydrogen.

As for Downloading, I think that methods that are efficient but time consuming would be practiced for Earth/Moon>Mars. Also, it is possible that in time materials manufacture in Martian orbit would also be Downloaded. Maybe manufactured in part from materials of those moons.

So, I recently recall a Rocket Man doing calculations of a Starship Low Martian Orbit<> Martian Surface. So it is possible that you would use just one type for both Upload and Download on Mars, I am not sure. The thick Earth atmosphere, and the distribution of human populations on Earth sort of lead me to suggest that a Dream Chaser/Hover Drone pairing might be effective for "Downloading Mass" from orbit.

That's it

It was fun.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-06 08:45:08)

Void · 2022-05-06 09:06:56

A slight amendment to the just prior post.

The air breathing catcher, should have high speed AI, likely be largely propeller drive, but;

Could have rocket engines, or more likely compressed air thrusters, or might it also be called "Cold Gas Thrusters?".

So then of course you would watch the weather, you could not bring the spaceship down in bad weather. Also, the fast reaction thrusters would make it more probable that the catcher could catch the spaceship, like a bird of prey can catch another bird, or a fish from the surface of water.

Obviously, the thruster compressed air could be fed using internal combustion engines.

Done.

Void · 2022-05-06 20:48:22

The Angry Astronaut provided this today, which is somewhat in the ballpark of materials recently in this post. Not exactly but very connectable.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=th … M%3DHDRSC3
Quote:

Jeff Bezos TALKS about space manufacturing, but UK innovation will actually do it this Summer!
YouTube · 3,000+ views · 9 hr ago · by The Angry Astronaut

I have wondered about doing an automated Starship to orbit. A factory to do similar things, with or without crew.

Of course, I want "Space Forge" to do well. We want all the pioneers we can get.

And I would think that others such as Terran-R, Neutron(Sort of), and Vulcan and so on may also do similar.

I sort of regret that Falcon 9 will go away, but I suppose it will linger until, being outdated.

But of course I also like the idea of space station manufacturing. It should work OK for some products, that might be more of a mass production situation.

Done.

This is kind of nice: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ca … ORM=WRVORC

But not related to the post actually.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-06 21:06:29)

Void · 2022-05-07 15:20:50

Mars_B4_Moon posted this and I see some value in it for this topic: Index» Science, Technology, and Astronomy» Electrostatic Ionized Radiation Protection Shield, post #5:

Quote:

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 1,895
Email
A magnetic bubble could protect astronauts from dangerous space radiation
https://phys.org/news/2022-05-magnetic- … space.html

The article seems to indicate a reduction of weight of the device 300 to 3 per unit as ton? Which is a good thing, especially for ships that are to have their inertia seriously changed in their use.

However, as I have been getting on and on about orbital assets for Mars, Toroidal Shells, and this then could go along with a radiation mitigation strategy, where, some areas where the g forces are large and the occupation time is large for a human could have expensive shielding with materials. And the whole system could have this magnetic method, and weight of the device will not matter nearly as much as for a spacecraft.

Further, if you have a "Pink" zone, (See my previous posts), then magnetic protection might be the first line of defense. But a person traveling through those zones may also have a water jacketed vehicle to move about in the "Pink" zones.

That at least can be a first notion of policy.

The "Pink" zones might be agricultural. I anticipate that they would be microgravity to save costs, and I am thinking that vegetation within would also help with radiation by absorbing it. It might actually be that the inside walls would include bags of water, which would also grow aquatic plants. This then could be very good radiation protection. But I think that the use of these things may be variable.

It should be reasonable to get Hydrogen from Mars to create water with Oxygen from the moons, if those moons do not have accessible water.

I don't know enough about this magnetic field, but perhaps it can also be used for moving orbital assets around to different orbits as well. Perhaps also it might contribute to a eventual protective field for Mars.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-07 15:39:56)

Void · 2022-05-07 20:48:04

Tonight, I thought of this:

Chevron mirrors are from G. O'Neil's vision. They can be radiation protective, and also protect from impactors, and I think also can help hold a pressurized window in place.

I originally thought that the water window could have agriculture in it aquatic in form. Spirulina? "Crops Aquatic"?

So, this might work well for a sun facing wall of a Torus which does not have synthetic gravity.

Done.

Void · 2022-05-08 09:04:42

Working with Chevron Mirrors in various environments:
'A' = Raw Environment
'B' = Enclosure in a pressurizing water column.
'C' = Sunlight path to a green vegetation situation.

The above is schematic or a diagram, for illustration. Not perfect, but then I am not one who chases perfection and throws away possibility.

I did not put all Chevrons in the drawing. I think you can figure it out. This could be useful in orbit as was originally intended but also on Mars and the Moon.

It may work with tensile forces with metal and ceramic members, it may use gravitational or centrifugal induced counterpressure, and also might be involved in compressive strength in some situations.

It may be protective of an enclosure, being a sort of epidermis.

For radiation, it may block hard radiation to a degree, if it is made of substantial "Slabs". It may control to a degree what wavelength of photons can get through, as long as you make the mirrored surfaces of that nature, and keep them clean.

You might think of it as a sort of girdle for a balloon enclosure membrane.

I will see if I can get to Sea Dragons stuff again.

Here we go! "Index» Human missions» Construction technology for Mars?" Post #167
Quote:

SeaDragon
Banned
From: Merry Old England
Registered: 2020-07-25
Posts: 32
Email
louis,
Casey Handmer is amazing but I'd like to add a technical fix to that fluorine access problem for ETFE.
The call for ETFE is based on the impression that UV damage would destroy other types of plastic which is not necessarily true - it's mostly the production of oxygen based free radicals that causes the issue (for quick reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UV_degradation ). If you can stop oxygen from inside diffusing into the plastic then UV degradation is greatly reduced and the inclusion of hindered amine light stabilisers (HALS) as copolymers, even making up as little as 0.25% of the total plastic, this can be greatly reduced yet further.
So:
- With a thin layer of something like poly(ethyl vinyl alcohol), usually written EVOH, the majority of oxygen transmission into a plastic habitat skin can be stopped
- A small amount of HALS copolymers stops initial free radical compounds made just after UV absorption in the plastic from propagating and leads to spectacular decreases in corrosion rates before any oxygen that does get through can make things worse.
With these fixes we can just use PET or a similarly cheap and easily produced plastic with no crazy elements like fluorine needed at all.
If we reinforce with basalt fibre (very nearly as good as Keflar but far far cheaper than Keflar) instead of Keflar or equivalent we'd be able to build this sort of thing at an industrial scale using only the resources we have on hand + a few low mass imported extras like HALS copolymers, accounting for perhaps 400 tonnes of plastic per 1 tonne of HALS or something.
Last edited by SeaDragon (2020-08-01 09:14:35)

So, now in this case you may make a "Chevron Girdle", using Tensile, Compressive, and Counterpressure methods. You may then inflate a balloon of materials suggested by SeaDragon's materials mentioned.

So, you have options. What sort of environment do you want inside the enclosure? How much pressure, what types of fluids?
Fluids are gasses, liquids, and in the case of dust, can be solids. I suppose slurries also apply say a mixture of dust and water kept turbulent so as to function as a flowing fluid. Lava also, I suppose.

But of course air and water are most of what we care.

Should you want to be minimal, then only pressurize it to the point that an ice layer on a pond or lake will tend to be stable.

Or pressurize some of it so that you can walk around in shirt sleeves.

On Mars a metal frame may hold tiles of Urea Brick Tiles that form the mirror surfaces. The weight of the tiles is actually a good thing as it is a compressive force to help retain the balloon. Of course you have to put a mirror coating on them where appropriate.

This is like Playdough for children, there are so many things you could do.

This could be in a orbital situation:

I like this stuff.

Comments? I actually am interested in your playdough thoughts kids.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-08 09:44:14)

Void · 2022-05-08 10:13:32

This is a continuation of post #220. It suggests a "Hole" solar collector/greenhouse for a worlds surface.

I think it is obvious that it would have advantages per retention and collection of heat, and avoidance of harmful radiation.

So, I guess sunlight would actually go "B">"A">"C". For Mars wind is not much of a problem, so you might build A as a tower with mirrors over C, and of course B would be a plurality of mirrors on the horizontal perimeter to add as many photons as might be desired. And for the most part harmful radiation is not transmitted to C.

And yes for night of dust storms you might have a method to cover C to hold in heat. But the surrounding regolith will not only help retain the internal pressure of "C", but also shield from harmful radiation, and also retain useful heat.

I have shown the cylinder buried but you might build it on the surface and just put regolith berms around it. And of course you may want tunnels not shown, to connect it to underground habitations such as Boring Tunnels and Lava Tubes.

And by the way this would fit nicely with gorges, as our absent member "Louis" has dreamed of.

Come back.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-08 10:25:28)

Void · 2022-05-08 10:30:07

So, I suggest that the word people with clubs and sharp sticks, leave us alone. We want our freedom and we will get it. Don't make us have to take you down.

Pardon me for using other peoples work. I do not intend to insinuate that they support my views. I just like their stuff.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ap … a8bf8aa210

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_(instrumental)

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ap … &FORM=VIRE

The human brain has been shrinking for thousands of years.

I think it is because of excessive use of verbalizations with violence promoted by hive mind people, who feed on the actual producers.

You do need language to communicate, but I fear that we have created our own predator that feeds on what the wild world nurtured in us and in their process of doing this they kick useful genes out of the gene pool, just so that they can replicate their kind endlessly.

That could be the end of an intelligent human race. So, we go to a new wilderness, as they will have a harder time feeding on our kinds there.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-08 10:30:51)

Void · 2022-05-08 17:21:29

I also have this:

While it will be very nice to have gardens where humans can be in comfort in shirt sleeves, I can make a note that typically humans do not insist that they need to spend a lot of time in the middle of a farm field in the Midwest, to be happy.

The farming canal could have temperate water in it, but then you would need to fortify the lid to hold down the vapor pressure of the water.

I think that most farming canals could have ice water in them. Then you can put bottles in them to use as planters. They could be water filled or air filled. Various crops could be grown that way. And even though it is ice water, at night there should be no frost on the crops.

So the idea here is to grow the most calories and variety of foods, for the least effort.

I anticipate that a "Hard Suit" should be created that can both protect from Vacuum and cold. On Mars it is not very likely that a high pressure water column will ever be a concern, as in our oil rigs. But such a suit could be a bit like the suits for oil rigs, but the hands could be gloved.

As for the planters, they could be moved to a diving bell for planting and harvesting as needed.

As I have said, if the settlers have a large bounty of resources then they could also likely afford comfortable park areas to sooth their souls.

Could these canals be used for submarine transport? We perhaps, there may be some issues, but maybe you would have underwater roads at the bottoms of the canals, but the movement of a vehicle could cause disruptions. Still maybe it can be figured out.

Granted, if your car leaks, you get wet and cold, but your blood does not boil or eyes pop out while you prepare to explode.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-08 17:27:21)

Void · 2022-05-09 06:36:18

A thought about subsurface ice and working with it turned up in my mind this morning. A post from " Mars_B4_Moon" stimulated it.

This is not the article but something else I looked up: https://phys.org/news/2011-12-mountains … 0on%20Mars.

I will seek the article that was posted.

Did not find it, so I will look at equatorial area stuff: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valles_Ma … 0fractured.

You would think that this query would get me what I want: "Ice in mariner rift valley".

I think that this is the article that was displayed that triggered my thinking this morning: https://www.universetoday.com/83840/vas … to%20exist.

OK, I found an article about the water in the rift valley: https://www.thewestonforum.com/mars-a-s … nd-canyon/
Quote:

Mars: a surprising discovery of the red planet under the “Grand Canyon”
January 2, 2022 Gilbert Cox

Quote:

They discovered huge amounts of water in the “Grand Canyon of Mars”
“Assuming that the hydrogen we see is bound to water molecules, forty percent of the near-surface material in this region appears to be water,” the researcher sums up the discovery on Mars. The area where scientists suspect the water is said to be about the size of the Netherlands and extends into deep valleys in an area called Candor Chaus.

Candor Chaus:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candor_Chasma
https://mars.nasa.gov/resources/26232/candor-chasma/
https://themis.mars.asu.edu/zoom-20050318673664a
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne … 180979267/
Picture Quote: https://th-thumbnailer.cdn-si-edu.com/m … illars.jpg
https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/16/world/ex … index.html
Picture Quote: https://media.cnn.com/api/v1/images/ste … _540,w_960
Picture Quote: https://media.cnn.com/api/v1/images/ste … 960,c_fill

OK, that's plenty of reference materials.

I am thinking of a method for creating water canals, and also extracting water from them as "Make-Up" water.

So, this term may be useful to our site. Dirt is dirt, and if you have to move it......cat_skinner https://www.answers.com/zoology/What_is … inner_mean

So, to process an area, you may have to treat the dry materials above the ice layer, and perhaps thin it down and move it to a canal basin that has previously had it's water removed. Such a process might also provide to burry habitat structures in it as the wet permafrost has been removed and it can be more stable.

So, my intention is that "I-Beam" individual chevrons can be moved to repeatedly form arrays of them for melting ice to satisfy needs. For human needs. Or else the arrays can remain in place for farming needs.

For this cat skinning and also beam moving, I suggest the work of our fellow members here, (With modifications).
"Index» Planetary transportation» Direct Electric Power for Vehicles & Equipment"
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10242
I suggest a "Chain" of energy producing and storage devices, joined by cables, and each part either on a cart or movable with heavy equipment.

I am tempted for "Iron-Air" Batteries, but you have to have the Oxygen process which will not be as easy on Mars as for Earth.

But we might want to think "Sloth-Robots". That is "Just how fast must these machines move?".

Not that fast. So low energy density may be tolerable for this. So, while humans might be bored to tears, waiting for a "Charge-Up", robot systems should not care very much at all.

If the sunlight striking the array is not enough then employ the "BAC" method in post #221 to add photons to it.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-09 07:36:13)

Void · 2022-05-09 11:23:55

At this time I am presuming that if the Rift Valley does indeed have an ice body the size of the Netherlands, we must have a look at it.

How it could be there is important. Is it from some kind of condensation process? If it is, is that an intermittent process? That is was it deposited during a previous climate activity for Mars?

Or, another possibility would be Cry volcanism/Artesian Seeps. We know that it exists on Ceres and Pluto, in some form or another.
I feel that on Mars, protrusions like Ahuna Mons would quickly evaporate/Erode in the dry wind and sunshine, leaving lumps of frozen icy regolith under a blanket of dry regolith.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti … net-ceres/
Ahuna Mons picture Quote

https://static.scientificamerican.com/s … 2C5775366A

So, far I am presuming ice volcanism fed by a fluid aquifer, but what about the possibility of fossil ice, and maybe vertical glaciation?

https://planetarygeomorphology.wordpres … eris-mars/
That notion is probably very out of favor with the dogma people, and that is OK. We do know that what we want to do is determine how the ice is there. We have a probability that it "IS" there, we just want to know how, and what it's structure is.

I will say however that the Fossil ice notion might include clathrates of Nitrogen, CO2, etc. that could have significant value.

For many of the possible situation/origins, the post #224, suggests a mining method using "Controlled Mass Wasting", to extract water and also to modify a icy permafrost to be able to support buildings.

I suspect that scalloped terrain is associated with "Ice Mass Wasting" on Mars: https://mars.nasa.gov/resources/8181/sc … te=insight

So, a device like this could be used to promote a Mass Wasting Pit, by evaporating the ice in the permafrost:

You would not promote a pressurization below the device, rather you would draw a mild Vacuum, and pull the water vapor to a condensing process. During this process, as tailing accumulated you might have a robot to push them to the sides of the pit, to help hold the vapors and vacuum in.

When you were done you would have a "Dry Pit", where you could burry devices that you may want to heat up. As the ice is gone, the heat will not melt icy permafrost.

A similar covering method might be used for Farming Canals, but the installation would be much more permanent, and the effort for effectiveness to be greater.

Photons could be added to the Mushroom House using a "BAC" method of mirrors shown in post #221.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-05-09 12:08:33)

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