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#1 2018-10-24 20:08:42

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
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How Much Water Does Mars Have?

I was searching for something else, but I came on a number to answer that in this link:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti … t-on-mars/
Quote:

Steve Clifford, an expert in Martian hydrology at the Planetary Science Institute in Arizona who was not part of the project, is not ready to count out the role of oceans in forming Mars’s brines. "You need the presence of water to have these brines," he says. Clifford points out that whatever water survives on Mars today—and researchers think there is enough to cover the entire surface with water at least half a kilometer if not a full kilometer deep—requires even more to have existed in earlier times, essentially assuring the Red Planet’s somewhat watery past.

So of course one of my pet projects is to use solar energy in a relatively primitive way to warm up water and inject it into an ice covered pool.  So it would seem that there is enough where you could fill massive basins with ice covered pools.  Likely dust storms would dump dust onto their surfaces and eventually protect them to some extent from evaporation.

I am going to try to be careful not to venture too far into terraforming Mars, and power production as the topic here is "Water on Mars".
However it is indeed a Terraforming and power production and storage technique.  The quantity of water mentions encourages me in every way.  I will go to the Terraforming section with this same material now, and perhaps elsewhere.

Done

Last edited by Void (2018-10-24 20:15:37)


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#2 2018-11-07 13:09:17

Void
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Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

https://phys.org/news/2018-11-geoscient … earth.html

The article indicates alternate methods for the Earth to have water, and that they speculate that the Earth has;
Quote:

Adding up the quantities cached in several places, Wu says, "Our planet hides the majority of its hydrogen inside, with roughly two global oceans' worth in the mantle, four to five in the core, and of course, one global ocean at the surface."

And then so I think that this might apply to Mars, and just maybe even the Moon, depending on how the Moon was formed.  Most theories of the Moons formation would say no, but we will need to have better ground truth from the Moon to know for sure.

If during the history of Mars Hydrogen tended to migrate from the lower regions, then it may be that all porosity of the regolith could be icy, except for the vacuum dried surface.

It actually makes sense that underground cryovolcanism would have occurred during and after the real volcanic eruptions became seldom or none.

Done

Last edited by Void (2018-11-07 13:12:20)


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#3 2018-11-07 18:35:53

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Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

Ship 500 gallons of water to mars and do salinity test for evaporation with each gallon testing for when it freezes when exposed to the mars atmosphere. Tag the water with a dry that can be traced from the orbiting satelites to watch where it goes. Repeat until you have liquid water that does not eveporate away.....

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#4 2018-11-08 01:23:16

M-Albion-3D
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From: Malibu CA
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Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

SpaceNut wrote:

Ship 500 gallons of water to mars and do salinity test for evaporation with each gallon testing for when it freezes when exposed to the mars atmosphere. Tag the water with a dry that can be traced from the orbiting satelites to watch where it goes. Repeat until you have liquid water that does not eveporate away.....

There's already much quantity of water on the surface derived from condensation and collected. Clue, look for the reflections in the pools?

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#5 2018-11-08 19:13:57

SpaceNut
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Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

heat mirage look like water....

137.jpg

1.jpg

Mirage.jpg

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#6 2018-11-09 01:00:54

M-Albion-3D
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Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

Nice examples of "Earth desert mirages"

No stranger to the western US deserts, I've clocked hundreds of miles, off road in the Mojave desert aboard my trustee two wheeled machines and have seen too many mirages to wave a stick at.

The difference is this. If you see a "inverted" reflection "in" the vision, it's more than likely water.

Still, a mirage requires less dense hot air at the surface both of which are supposedly not present on Mars. The possibility of "inferior" mirages I guess could occur but unlikely.

I have some 3D images showing vast water puddles from the Pathfinder lander but you will need anaglyph glasses. Do you have a pair?

Last edited by M-Albion-3D (2018-11-09 01:54:33)

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#7 2018-12-22 07:41:56

SpaceNut
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Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

reposting

Well a prolonged stay waiting to fill up a carrier will take energy even doing nothing just to keep it possible to be in a useable. Then you need the energy for the equipment to carve it out of the solid ice dirt fields. The equipment to move it into the carrier and those equipment will also need heating to keep it useable.

https://news.yahoo.com/moody-photo-mars … 37923.html

https://www.engadget.com/2018/12/21/mar … ev-crater/

https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/Eafvu … 9d4dfc3c3d

Mars Express satellite captured images of the 50-mile wide Korolev crater filled with ice. Which has remained even in summer.

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#8 2018-12-22 07:44:06

SpaceNut
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Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

louis wrote:

I just checked on Wikipedia and find this crater has 2200 cubic kms of WATER ice! I make that to be about 2.2 trillion tonnes of water!!! No wonder it doesn't all evaporate in summer!


SpaceNut wrote:

https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/Eafvu … 9d4dfc3c3d

Mars Express satellite captured images of the 50-mile wide Korolev crater filled with ice. Which has remained even in summer.


At 73 degrees north, it's not as near the pole as I expected.  It's probably about 2000 kms or so away from some of the best insolation on Mars at around 30 degrees north. I suspect we can find better water sources in terms of location but if worse came to worse you could definitely have a constant chain of water extraction robot rovers travelling to the crater and returning, each laden with a couple of tonnes of water.

We now have a means to go to mars to stay with an estimate of a valueable resource for man.

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#9 2018-12-22 08:49:08

Void
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Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

I consider this to be very important information.  And as history will tell you it may be just what I want.

http://www.astronomy.com/news/photos/20 … -water-ice
Quote:

This remarkable photograph is a combination of five different image strips recombined into one that reveals the 51-mile (82 km) wide crater and its ever-present sheet of ice. Due to the cold trap phenomenon, when the thin air settles over the ice, it cools down and creates a chilly layer that behaves as a shield, keeping Korolev continuously icy.

I wasn't aware of this cold trap phenomenon.

What you have there is a giant heat sink.  Potentially a fabulous one.

All sorts of potentials.  For instance Heliostats around the rim with solar power towers.  Yes the Martian northern winter would be very tiresome and probably could be deadly.  But the Martian year is 686.98 Earth solar days.  So, with hyperloop for instance a migratory method of habitation for most of the population may be merited as efficient.  Technically you are associating the bulk of your population to more available photons for the total of the Martian year.

Lets talk "Land of the Midnight Sun".
https://www.mapsofworld.com/lat_long/sw … -long.html

This "Body of Ice" will be even more northerly than that, so I can expect that out of the days of a Martian year, you could at least host a manor population for perhaps 1/3 of that year, the summer.  That is not to say that some people could not winter over, perhaps for hazard duty pay, to keep an eye on things, maybe keep some of the machinery running spring and fall.  And then I presume that any surface equipment would have to have transformation capabilities so that the CO2 Snow load would not damage it over the winter.

So then lets suppose the bulk of economic activity at this site would occur over 8 months of a summer.  If I understand then that is the biggest slice of the yearly budget of photons for that area.

Of course then I suggest that there be other locations to go to during the Martian northern winter.

You see I have been thinking all this time that we would have to put a covering over the ice of a melted lake.  But here, if we are clever, and balance things out, then the cold trap may be sufficient to protect the ice.  And anyway it might take a very long time to evaporate all of that ice.  (Or to melt it).

Do you like nuclear power?  Heat sink.

And with that much water, you could indeed both melt water under the  ice, and the heat it up and vent it to atmosphere through a turbine, possibly getting the Relative Humidity up, and getting some of the vapors into higher atmosphere, where the U.V. may just cause the emergence of Oxygen and Ozone.  But it is a method to generate an energy consumable first of all.  Remember that during quite a stretch of time, the sun will not set, so the concerns of night condensations to fogs and snows, would be quite reduced.  And anyway if it condensed out, some of it would drop back down to the lake, so what?  You were generating electrical power.



And if you remember the boring company, there should be all kinds of opportunity to make tunnels and caverns in the rock.  Also boring tunnels under the ice at the edges.  As I have speculated on, on many occasions, if you have melted bodies of water under the ice, and if you also have half filled tunnels you have potentials for aquiculture by many various methods.

Last edited by Void (2018-12-22 09:09:26)


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#10 2018-12-22 13:14:17

Void
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Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

This is really looking better and better all the time.

Imagine this.  You build a "Cone" structure out of Boring Company tailings, fibers, and some kind of a binder.
You put solar cells all over the outside of it.
You put heliostats all around it.
You put a solar power tower boiler(s) somewhere on this.  The boiler may or may not have a turbine.

So, lets just call it the "Marctic" summer smile  (We also could have an "Mantarctic" summer).

But here we are looking at Martic-S, or something like that.

Solar cells are likely to be a nice way to get on demand power during the Marctic-S, most of the time, with small night-times towards end of spring and the beginning fall.

So far with our experience with solar panel energy, on Earth, we have needs to store energy for cloudy days, and for nighttime.

Here, I intend to greatly reduce that need, and to also store energy over a seasonal length, and to also cover for global dust storms in part.

In the time of the Midnight sun, you will have a sun low in the sky for the most part.  Also it will dip down towards or underneath the horizon at times, in a typical Martic-S day.

As the sun appears to circle the "Cone" during the Martic-S, naturally the solar cells will pick up energy.  However the ones on the reverse side will be idle without heliostats.

There can be at least 3 energy loads.
1) Direct electric from solar panels.
2) Heating our artificial sea/lake.  (This could involve electricity producing turbines, or may not).
3) Venting water vapor to the atmosphere, to generate electricity with a turbine, or simply to try to do weather/climate modifications.

So, I am thinking that the primary objective to think of at first is to provide a electrical power source which is relatively steady, and requires a minimum of electrical power storage (Batteries?).

So the heliostats, a swarm of robots, carefully add photons to the solar panels as a preference typically to provide electrical power as desired.  Particularly when the sun is low in the sky, or when demand is higher.

But in part and at other times, they can aim at a boiler process which could either melt sea/lake water, or vent water vapor to the high atmosphere (We might hope).  Each of these could involve a turbo-electric process.

……

So what of the CO2 processes you have been working on?  Well, I will let you do yours.  The Sea/Lake is intended to store heat over the winter however I will mention.

You could mine CO2 if you wish.  Robots after all over time that should get better and better.

Salts in the sea/lake would allow room temperature in the bottom layers.  However I am guessing they have to be added to the lake.  Either directly as salts, or by the rusting say of sand dune materials to also produce Hydrogen.

Also you could build a "Cold Cone", which would have tubing attached to it.  Tubing which could retain pressures high enough for liquid CO2.  In that case you may be able to harness the cold of Mars, year around to generate electricity.  It would be a closed loop system.

Getting tired.  Have though of the migration method.

Tubes, I think.  Don't think I prefer hyperloop.  Rather pressurized tubes, busses with a portable potty method, a water supply some food.  Beds.  Self driving.  Going 50 - 150 mph, that should not be so bad.

As they are a migration method, you only need one tube.  The busses then travel back for more passengers by traveling on the surface.  They don't need to be pressurized for that.

Consideration of Murphy's law advised.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-12-22 13:37:17)


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#11 2018-12-22 20:02:10

SpaceNut
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Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

Korolev is a crater in the Mare Boreum quadrangle of Mars, located at 73° north latitude and 195.5° west longitude.

http://www.planetary.brown.edu/planetar … d_etal.pdf
KOROLEV CRATER, MARS: CHARACTERISTICS AND ORIGIN

It sure opens up a Mars of possibilities...

Of course this mars would be much easier for water if its oceans were still around
Ejwa3SI.png

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#12 2020-09-28 09:51:10

tahanson43206
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Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

For Void ... here is an update to your interesting topic ...

https://www.yahoo.com/news/salty-water- … 00888.html

The article at the link above contains a healthy mix of scientific reporting in favor of the proposition (deep radar observations) and equally persuasive scientific argument against the proposition.

The radar data itself would appear to be accepted by all parties.

One detail I found intriguing was a guess that the interior of Mars may contain more heat than is generally thought to be present.

The lack of active volcanoes would seem (to me at least) to be a signal that the heat in the core (that had to have been present when the planet formed) is not being replenished by radioactivity as it is on Earth.

Still, one scientist interviewed for the article at the link above seems to think there might be enough residual heat flowing from the interior to keep water liquid at locations in the crust where it would otherwise be frozen.

It is that sort of healthy debate that ** should ** lead to future discoveries.

(th)

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#13 2020-09-28 17:44:50

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Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

I did see an article for Mars southern pole showed 2 sea water lakes under the dirty dry ice.

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#14 2020-09-28 19:18:16

Void
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Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

I desparately want to avoid politics, and the judgement of decisions made.  But need to at least say that there as apparently a time follo
wing the 70's in the USA at least where so many of the powers at the wheel had higher priorities, or relegious pseudo relegious reasons to stiffle the manned space program, that they wanted a bone dry Moon and almost waterless cold Mars as the story.  (Don't go out there, there be demons).  And I cannot fault all of them.  Priority #1 was to keep the USA intact, if we were ever to return.  But of course that fossilized and became a relegion with and "Old Testiment".  Now ever so slowly, a "New Testiment" has a chance to be written.  Possibly it is required that time give more people of the fossil type a dirt nap.  Unfortunately that is how it works or at lest is working so far.
------
Enough politics. 
Let's compair Ceres and Mars.  Ceres small but thought to have cryovolcanism, somehow, warmer than it is supposed to be.  But Mars closer to the sun and larger, with evidence of massive volcano's......Cryovolcano's, are you kidding?
If Ceres had had an astmosphere like Mars, the salt deposits seen would probably have been covered over with dust.  And other evidence of cryovolcanism erased.  Particularly Ares Mons with Ceres with such an atmosphere, and if the sunlight were raised to that of Mars, would have evaporated, and either be lost to space, or more likely redeposited, yes under dust.
------
The Moon, Luna, is said to be warmer than it is supposed to be.  How is that explained?  Ceres is said to be warmer than expected.  Why?
For the moons of Jupiter and Saturn, being warmer than expected is explained with tidal heating.  My thinking is there may be other factors.
The solar wind, electric discharges, caused by differential sunlight exposure on a planets surface.  In the case of Mars we think the dust storms have electrical effects.  We also think thta their may be a water table just ~750 meters, or ~2500 feet down below the surface.  Such a water table could serve as a current carrier for ground currents.  Also the atmosphere of Mars with it's current composition and pressure is said to be much more conductive than is our atmophere.
-----
The standard story for volcano's up until now is they are dead, but now modified to probably dead since 20 million years ago.
I don't know for sure how old the big ones like Olympus Mons are, but maybe billions of years.  We have nothing like that on Earth, because of plate tectonics and water and wind erosion I presume.
My best guess is that what may happen is a time constant.  The volcanos get more dense from cooling over millions of years.  The magma pockets that may be rising have no outlet for heat, and become less dense.  So then perhaps like an iceberg calfing off of an ice shelf, one day the crust breaks around the volcano, and, (This is reaching), perhaps the mountain itself shatters to a degree and provides a pathway for the magma to erupt though the cracks.  That leaves one to wonder why it would not erupt from the bottom, so I am rather weak on that.  Perhaps the fractures around the perimiter seal off, as magma heats them and they swell shut with the heat.  Perhaps the mass of the mountain insulates the magma.  A far reaching best guess.
That might mean however that when Mars has a major Marsquake, it is a biggie.  If true, probably millions of years off if ever.
I myself am not satisfied with this thinking but I think it may be somewhat close.
------
Back to Cryovolcanism.  There is some though that the sourthern hemisphere of Mars is higher than that of the North, because of an "Additive Impact", at some point in it's history.  Where some people thought that the North was low because of an impact gouge, some now think that something hit the south hemisphere, and melted into pancake batter sort of and flowed a bit before solidifying.  In some ways this could suggest why the southern debths might be warmer.  The impact added more heat.  The extra rock layer insulated the southern debths.  Maybe the impactor had more radioactive materials.  Obviously I don't know.
------
Back to cryovolcanism on Mars.  We are generally told that the ice slabs were likely from a previous climate situation, where snow was deposited.  That seems reasonable.  Their arguments are in peril though as they keep finding evidence of significant but smaller deposts nearer the equator, maybe even at the equator.  (Maybe, Maybe).
I can be realitivly comfortable with their story.  It may be true or partially true.  We really don't know Mars as much as we should want to.
Risky speculation:  (My papers are in peril! sad  My standing with the scientific papacy may lead to stick and stone, maybe a stake?).
Well obiously I don't care that much.
I have thoughs about cryovolcanism for Mars that suggest that that is what those ice slabs may be in some cases.  Heritic, Heritic!  And then again, maybe I get a pie in the face.  I would like Lemon Marange.
Where I have problems with it is obviously where is the heat to drive it?  But also how does it erupt above the presumed planetary water table, presumed to be ~750 meters or ~2500 feet down?
Freezing water down below has been proposed by some to push water up through fractures.  That requires a thaw and feeze situation.  Daily cycles arn't going to work for that.  Good chance seasonal might not work, except in the summer to thaw the surface fractures enough that pressurized brine might seep out on the slopes of some craters in some locations.
Maybe Axis tilts could pressurize aquifers with a thaw and freeze cycle.
How ever, as a heritic, it is my responsibilty to risk the rack, to suggest freeze thaw cycles induced by electrical flows from global dust storms.
-----
And so, I do not claim that for the said to exist south polar lakes, but it would be the nature of electric flow to follow the path of least resistance, and that will be thorugh the atmosphere at first and similar to lightning into the gound to produce ground currents.  This could possibly thaw an aquifer temporarily, and then as normal sets in it may freeze up, pressurizing.  Then a summer thaw may release a flow to the surface.
A precarious position on my part, I understand.  I might loose my tenure!
This in part could explain the tiny flows on the walls of some craters.
But what if you had a really big water eruption?
Well presumably, a pool of ice covered water.  That would then freeze to the bottom.  High spots above regolith would evaporate off.  Low, flat spots would be covered in air borne dust and perhaps volcanic and impact ejecta.
It appears that the upper portions of these ice slabs are partially eroded by sublimation.  That is to be expected even if it was deposited by snow.
But, that would be insulation as the vacuum filled VOIDS smile would act like thermos bottles to a degree.
If the water eruption model were true, (Somehow), then a subsequent eruption would add to the fill.  The question would be would it flow over the top, or would the old ice float up?
------
Well, I myself am very not so sure about some of the wilder things I have said.  However the snow deposits lasting on the ~equator for so long also is a bit shakey.
------
Oh, is that sticks and stones?  Well as Mark Twain was supposed to have said, "I was happy to say "I don't know"".   
And don't don't bother with the Spanish Inquisition, I am a sissy, I will racant as necessary.
smile
Done.

Oh by the way, I must confess, that I think that it is possible that the solar wind can induce electric currents in objects that it passed by.
Done Dum.
The above may be proven wrong, BS.
However the main point is how would you recognize cryovolcanism on Mars when it might occur else than a polar ice cap.  It would erode as exposed, and leave a dirt covered stump I think.
Mud volcano's would be an exception as they might just freeze up and/or dry out.
Dum Dum.
I seem to be still spewing.  Well if somehow an aqufer of lesser dimensions were melted, and then froze, I suggest that if it froze from all sides, the only pressure relief might be downward into a lower aquifer, of if that were not possible upward to the surface to be an ice volcano.
Dum to the.......Not for sure.

No...."I don't know" smile


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#15 2020-09-30 09:04:43

tahanson43206
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Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

For Void re #14

Your post is dated September 28, so (hopefully) you had not yet seen this report:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/buried-lakes … 15931.html

I'll be interested in your evaluation of the findings.  In particular, I'll be interested in your evaluation of the discussion about persistence of life in the observed brines.

(th)

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#16 2020-10-05 03:24:33

Forrest White
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Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

The water on Mars is quite salty, and, despite the fact, scientists think there could be living in it, even on the Earth in salty water nothing can live.

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#17 2020-10-05 19:42:59

SpaceNut
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Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

Salty water on Mars would hold life as its going to be warmer than the depths seen under earth's ice cap but the question is did life survive when it was colder at the surface as the ice formed and the water got Saltier....

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#18 2020-10-06 14:22:48

Void
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Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

I have been thinking about it, and have noted 3 last posts by three members.
If the lakes exist, then a question is, do they connect eventually to a larger aquifer system?
It seems reasonable, as if there is such an aquifer system, how does it remain hydrated?
The notion of life in the question of such lakes, also involves locatons elsewhere, if there is a larger aquafer.
------
There is only very partial information.   So, a lack of precision of concepts will have to be excused for inaccuracy of estimates or possibility.  At this point best guesses will have to do, and later be excused if necessary.
-----
I am out of my depth here.  Even so, I will make an attempt.
I actually cannot know for sure what the higher minds have themselves detemined as plausable, let alone their reasons.  Sometimes I feel that they may be too "Earth Centric", where they observe how things work on Earth, and where those fail to emerge on Mars, form a negitive notion for things, and yet, maybe do not as much, in some cases consider how how Mars is different, there may be different favors offered than what is offered on Earth.  Not always, but perhaps sometimes.
-----
With extremely limited information, I will seek to speculate on how the Martian aquifer(s) could be recharged, perhaps. 
-----
Some, probably from the American relm, have more said they doulbted the lakes, or that geothermal is required for them to exist.  The Europeans have apparently said salts in an extreme condtion of concentration with very cold temperatures.
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It appears that there is, or must have been a water cycle on Mars to keep a global aquifer active, (If there is one).
It is not out of the question that in some place(s) in a global aquifer, there could be moderations of severity for life.
We also can be interested in what could be done per the nature of Mars to adapt to it for Humans. 
------
I have been looking at something about Mars, which is not significant for Earth but which may be and asset to the existance of a aquifer(s), life, and habitability as per humans and Earth life.
Mars appears to have two major climatic zones:
1)  Polar/Temperate, and                                       2) Equitorial/Temperate.
The distinction is set by the presence or absence of significant CO2 solids deposits.
For #2, some experiments have been conducted, to see if Earth life can adapt to an aproximate simulation.  Lichens and Cyanobacteria in cracks in rocks.  The results in the simulations have been rather positive, which is not to say that in the true nature of situation #2, life could endure, but it might.  I don't think they accounted for dust that could be toxic, and I don't believe that they included the tiny amounts of Oxygen and Carbon Monoxide in the atmosphere, which I speculate some life could use to help them along.
Moisture was adiquate, due to the thermal cycle of day/night.
For #1, we could split it into several parts:
a: South Polar ice cap with a permanent layer in places of perhaps ~8 Meters of CO2 ice, over primarily water ice, it seems.
b: North Polar with a seasonal ice cap of perhaps ~1 Meter of CO2 ice, over primarily water ice.
c: Temperate Seasonal where ~1 Meter of CO2 ice is over icy regolith.
d: Temperate Seasonal where ~1 of CO2 ice is over dry regolith.
It is not at all an idea originated by me that CO2 ice could act like a solar collector/greenhouse.  You can look up "Spiders" on Mars. 
Also, I do recall articles suggesting that a CO2 Ice layer could shelter a layer including water ice enough to keep the internal pressure and temperature sufficient to melt water ice and foster life.  The idea was that by the time the CO2 ice ruptured, a period of time allowing for water based life could have occured.
If we add salts to the mix we could have a seasonal melt that might recharge aquifers in cases a, b, and c.   CO2 vaporizes at about ~56 degrees centigrade, so with an air gap, perhaps icy soil with salts could melt below it.  Not necessarily to a temperature allowing lifes motabolism, but sufficient to create brine.
Earth life seems to need a minimum temperature of -20 degrees centigrade to have significant motabolism, but can survive long term at much lower persistant temperatures, and revive temporarily on favorable occasions.  It even can grow at an extremly slow rate at unfavorable temperatures.
The Phoenix lander apparently demonstrated melting in the sunshine, without a CO2 ice blanket.
An intersting thing might be certain types of rocks that microbes could inhabit, which might heat up even more, with a briny liquid in them.  Small "Air" pockets might not always rupture at all, or might have a significant time period where they were enclosed in a CO2, or CO2 + water ice casing.
------
Putting aside life for now, I am rather interested in a, b, and c.
Starting with the South Polar ice cap propper, with an ~8 meter slab of what may be transparent ice, this then provides sufficient pressure to avoid sublimation of water ice.  It also sheilds water ice from evaporation from winds, I would think.  The question is, is there enough energy to melt water ice, even in small pockets in the water ice?
Informatio about Mars in these regaurds are sketchy.  However, others have speculated on ice melts in the ice caps by solar power.  We do have some favorable factors.  Being elevated the solar flux is perhaps at its highest for latitude on Mars.  We also have spring/summer/fall periods that are aproximately twice as long as for our polar areas.
CO2 ice slabs are said to be tranparent at least in some cases.  Water ice can also demonstrate some transparency.
And then if you had favorable conditions within the water ice, such as some dirt, and salts it becomes even more plausable to have water melts.  So, if you could have "Dirty" water melts of -20 Degrees C, then I see that it would be possible to have an ecosystem of some kind in the South Polar ice cap.
For other areas these are variances of the above down to temporary CO2 ice and water ice.
It is just possible that we might have a brine water table in some locations, and perhaps this can seep into aquifers.  I certainly don't know.
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Because of the above, I have misgivings about the temperatures that are quoted for any situation under the ice caps.  Are they factoring in the solar collection aspects, or only calculating from surface temperature numbers?
So, that needs more information.
The lakes found however, apparently are under icy regolith, that would be seasonally covered with CO2 ice, probably with a dash of water ice and perhaps salts.  However if the more solar collecting portions of the ice caps did generate a salty water table, then it would not be impossable for liquid brine to migrate from that ares to where the lakes are.
I do wonder again if the subsurface temperatures above the lakes take into account the solar collecting capacity of these environments, or if they have calculated from surface numbers?
The CO2 ice would also insulate during the winter, even if they then subsequently evaporated in sunshine.
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Beyond that we have other possibilities.....
-Are the ice caps fluffy with more voids than is assumed?  In that case they are more insulating than Earth ice caps.  In general Mars is said to be less dense than the Earth with more voids.
-The Martian Regolith is more beat up than that of Earth, from impacts.  It is presumed to go down deaper.  Is it possible to have "Warm" springs of brine, that reach so deep that there can be a contribution to temperature under the ice cap?
-Although I have gotten little support from anyone, I would ask you to look at Antarctica and the seas surrounding it.  Also the rivers and lakes that are said to be under it.  Can ground currents connect portions of the oceans around it into an electrical circuit?  Can that not only genrate heat, but a source of electrical energy for microbes in brine?
Looking at the ice caps I would normally excpect them to as a whole be electrically insulating, but thin "Channels" of CO2 gas, salts, and even brine, might create electrical pathways through them.  It is quite likely that the effect exists, there is only the question of it's magnitude being of significance.   It would not only be that electric currents might flow from one side to another, but also perhaps a differential can exist at times from the top and bottom.  Evaporation, winds, sunlight variations, and dust storms could all possibly create differential voltages.  Pathways could allow for current discharges.
Another energy source for lakes could be iron in brines.  It is speculated that Lake Bonney in Antarctica, has a microbial population about 1/10 as dense as normal water.  However it is at ~-13 degC, and is about 6 times as salty as sea water.  You can read about it.  various gasses present, and probably Hydrogen generated by the rusting of iron, perhaps.  For the lakes in the sourthern ice cap of Mars, we could speculate on an iron bearing meteror(s) impacting the ice cap at that location in the past, the crater(s) having been erased by now.  The initial impact could have melted water, and perhaps the chemical energy keeping it melted.
No proof that it would be warm enenough for life, but if it was warmed by chemical combination, microbes would accelerate that, like a wet hay stack which can actually get hot enough to catch on fire.
And then we know that pressure can lower the melting point of fresh water.  I don't know how that can apply to various kinds of brine.
Also, CO2 disolved in water can lower the melting point a bit.
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Moving a bit off topic, if the solar effects are true for the ice caps "Propper", and humans have a good energy source such as Nuclear of some kind, and Orbital Solar, maybe we should have a look at inhabiting the debths of those ice caps.  It could be that there would be seasonal lighting.  You would also have the pressure of the ices, and the insulation of them, and of course water.   If you wanted your fancy NASA encouraged surface habitats you could also have them.  You could use normal brick buildings inside of pressurized and perhaps insulated ice caves.  I would not care for the long winters, so, I would suggest seasonal population migration as a desired option.   And of course you would have excellent radiation protection available.
And unlike the rest of Mars, you may not need to mechanically protect the ice surfaces that the sun might shine through.
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And then we have the possibilty of "Extreme Adaptations" for life, and what it's penalties could be.  We don't know if Mars has had liquid undergrounds for most of it's existance, but it is a possibility.  We assume that Mars could not have very low temperature and/or high saltyness life, because our organisms tested don't have it.  If Mars was more kind for the first 500 Million years, I have to presume that it swapped spit with other potentially life bearing objects such as Planets, Moons, and Asteroids.  So, it seems likely that they would take hold.
I myself think that for the most part Mars was almost always glacial, which did allow for cold water flows and impoundments.  It was not until about 1 billion years in it's history that it got the dust as much from Medusae Fossae.  That event would have changed the climate to have factors that it still has now.  Up to 1 Billion years ago, Mars had periodic gushing rivers.
An example of extreme adaptation and it's problems was demonstrated in the Atacama desert recently.  Life so adapted to "Dry", encountered an unusual rain, and much of it died from it.  I am sure it will recover, but this is a demonstration of how you can go wrong if you are extremly adapted to what we conder "Harsh" conditions.
In a like manner, I would like to present an example of how an extremly adapted creature can pay a penalty for it, as per being preyed on by a less adapted species, if the environment changes and allows the less adapted organism in.
It is fish vs. brine shrimp.  Brine Shrimp that we have here are not adapted for Mars.  However they are extremely adapted to salty dry environments on Earth as long as there is sufficient water and light and temperatures they are suited for.
The fish I know of cannot breed successfully at salt levels greater than 2 times that of sea water.   The Great Salt Lake in general blocks fish, and allows brine shrimp.   However fresh water rivers may allow fish some access to the lake historically, but less so now as much of that it turned to irrigation.
I believe brine shrimp will do better in sea water or less salty water than very salty water, as they don't have to use as much of their metabolic resources to compensate for the excessive salt.  But if fish can live there, they are pretty much going to be eaten.  So, they are better off where fish cannot find them and survive.  They have to pay the penalty of excessive salt, but still can live.  Birds prey on them, so they apparently or speculatively have die offs periodically to reduce the chances of birds adapting to permanent residency.  The price they pay by being eaten by birds who migrate, might be compensated to a degree, if the birds spread the brine shrimp to other salty pools by eggs or cysts.  And that is just incidental to help complete the picture.
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For Mars, suppose we might have had an ocean or seas of extremely cold briny water, near the surface we might have had two or three instances of mercy to life.
This would be brine channels in the ice pack as per our Arctic Ocean.  Also, if as I think there could have been solar salt ponds that accumulate solar energy below ice and a cold less briny layer, there could also be a form of mercy.  And then as Mars probably was more gethermally active in it's youth than now, we could expect some kind of life community around that.
But what of extremly briny cold water that never the less would get light though the ice?  We don't have that here or Earth, but it may be because such extremeliy adapted life would be preyed on by less adapted creatures, when the climate took an excursion to greater, what we would consider "Mercy".  So, it is like a earnest clever person who made a living in a place which you might not expect someone to make it in.  While they are to be admired, a transient rif-raft type, just passing through could do all kinds of damage to such a type, who has devoted all resources to adaptation to where they are.
You see the problem as it relates to human communities.  What we might think of as clever and so amazing, maybe not what we want.  Survival of the fittest, especially where an environment wobbles between two or more extremes, can allow the river boat gambler to kill and rape the little house on the prarie community.
So, be wise.  I recall a Fin on television, where he was ice fishing.  It looked brutal, out on the ice, but he had wisdom.  He said, as I recall, "We could fix things up so they are nicer, but then someone will come and take them from us".
This is, in my opionion, a problem we face with the excessively verbal.  While they can master words, and sticks and stones, and we are burdened with making technology produce, they may be only intersted in taking what they can, and as they are people of words, they will tell stories to try to justify themselves.  Don't let them, or just say "Nice Wolf" until you can find a bigger stick.   Also be careful not to pave the road to hell for yourselves.
I love dogs by the way.
Done.

A little edit today, 10/7/2020  Not all spell checking though smile

Last edited by Void (2020-10-07 19:53:33)


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#19 2020-10-08 08:51:49

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,582

Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

I guess I was not finished.
I mentioned the Great Salt Lake and it's rivers.  But it actually, as I recall gets a great deal of it's moisture from the winter atmosphere.  At certain humidity and temperature levels moisture disolves directly from the atmophere into the brine.
In speculating on a Martian global water table/aquifer, I have to wonder about some variant of that applying in some places at some time.  So, hydration may not require brine melts on or near the surface, but I do not dismiss the possibility of brine melts.
The water table is speculated as being at ~750 Meters/ ~2500 feet down.  So, a bit more atmospheric pressure down there.  The "typical" pressure on Mars at the surface is said to be ~5.5 mBar.  Here I am presuming that the water table, if it exists may, in part try to maintain the pressure near ~5.5 mBar, in this particular climatic phase.  I don't know what it might do as the axis changes.
As I have observed before, that pressure is suspiciously close to the tripple point of fresh water.   But maybe we should suspect "Cap Ice" which may be slightly salty, so as to alter the tripple point of such an icy brine.
However I think that "Down there" we could have clathrates of various things, and indeed ice that is less briny as a more briny liquid can get squeezed out of freezing brine.  Such heavier brine should tend to sink below the remnant that can freeze.  Others have speculated on "Auto-Fracking", where liquids could be sqeezed up through cracks by the freezing of a body of liquid lower down.
So, of course we are dealing with an alien world, and do not understand it enough yet, as far as I am concerned.
Anyway, such a water table might get hydrated as speculated in the previous post, or there may be a contribution directly in and out of the atmosphere of some liquid table mixture about 750 Meters down / 2500 Feet down.
And of coures a measure of "I do not know" belongs in this mix, along with "I would like to know better". smile
Done.


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#20 2020-10-08 11:28:35

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 4,155

Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

For Void re #19

Your mention of the Great Salt Lake caught my eye ... I had the opportunity to drive across a part of it some years ago, on a planned visit to Salt Lake City.

Your discussion of interaction of brine and water in the air inspires a question I am hoping you will find interesting.

Do you suppose it might be possible/practical to capture water in the moments after it is liberated from the liquid of the open ocean, and before it rises to make clouds?

In Nature, on Earth, water is liberated from the ocean (and other bodies of water) by Solar energy, whereupon it is whisked away for a long journey around the planet until it encounters conditions that cause it to form droplets, and then to fall to Earth.

What I'm speculating about (and inviting your consideration) is the possibility that humans might be able to "harvest" water vapor and deliver it to the places on Earth where it is needed.

Whatever technology might be developed for Earth could (presumably) be applied on Mars, where evaporation of any water brought to the surface would be much more swift.

Edit #1:

I asked Google for information about dehumidification.  Dehumidification is the process Nature uses when it dumps water from the atmosphere onto the surface of the Earth below.  While Nature's process is effective, it is not efficient.  It persists in dumping water wherever it wants, instead of where humans need it (a) or (b) ** don't ** want it.

About 708,000 results (0.57 seconds)

Warehouse Dehumidifier - Reduce Humidity Problemsminators · Coolers And Humidifiers
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Featured snippet from the web

Working on the same principle as a refrigerator, moisture-filled air is drawn into the dehumidifier and passed over a cold, 'refrigerated' coil. The damp air condenses on the cold coil into water droplets which are collected in the water tank.

How does a dehumidifier work // Mitsubishi Electricwww.mitsubishi-electric.co.nz › dehumidifier › how
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About Featured Snippets
Web results

Dehumidifier - Wikipediaen.wikipedia.org › wiki › Dehumidifier
A dehumidifier is an electrical appliance which reduces and maintains the level of humidity in the air, usually for health or comfort reasons, or to eliminate musty ...
Thermal condensation ... · Ionic membrane ... · Condensate · Applications

What is needed is a way to capture water molecules after they have been liberated from the ocean by sunlight, and before they escape to the upper atmosphere where they are whisked away by winds.

Whatever solution is found needs to use solar energy, because that is the mechanism used by Nature, and it delivers megatons of water over the surface of the Earth in a continuous delivery mode.

Edit#2: SearchTerm:VirtualDehumidifier  SearchTerm:Dehumidifier Virtual


(th)

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#21 2020-10-09 07:07:46

Calliban
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From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 603

Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

Any liquid water on Mars within a kilometre of its surface would be brine, as its temperature would be well beneath freezing point for pure water.  The surface of Mars is a very salty environment.  At temperatures less than zero centigrade, the vapour pressure of water is <6mbar.

https://www.omnicalculator.com/chemistr … e-of-water

So liquid brine could exist very close to the surface of Mars, provided that a layer of icy regolith prevented evapouration.  It is entirely possible for Martian regolith to be wet with cold salty water, with a thin crust of ice over the top.  Photosynthetic algae might even live in such brine if only they could stand the salt and the extreme cold.  There aren't many living things that can survive in brine at temperatures colder than -20C.  But in principle, saturated brine could exist very near the surface of Mars as a liquid.


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#22 2020-10-09 16:43:32

SpaceNut
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#23 2020-10-11 09:39:44

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,582

Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

(th) That is a question of importance.  I have previously answered it, if you search, it was in the last few months.  Look into windmills, and OTEC.  If needed, I will try to find it later. 
But for the moment, I will review a bit of it.  I think direct solar would not be the greatest on the Oceans and Seas.  However Windmills may be.  For your purpose, extract cold air from the Ocean.  You could directly circulate air through a submirged heat exchanger, or store pressurized air in a reservoir under the water, releasing it as desired.  You would squirt the air through redesigned windmill blades.  The blades then would be a heat exchanger.  Any condensate will respond both to centrifugal force and gravity.
You might try to suction the condensate out of a little cup on the ends of the blade.  That would be easier on the up-stroke of the blade, due to gravity.  Or you might just catch the splash-off from the swinging blades.
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A thing that I also like is to blow warm air through the windmill blades.  Here in reverse, you might store hot water that was generated by a heat pump in a subsurface reservoir.  Then of course you would have a heat exchanger that would heat air that you could blow through the blades.  This would be useful in locations where icing on the blades reduces the viability of wind power.  Prehaps the Baltics?
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Caliban,
Thanks for taking an interest, and also providing some better definition of what might be possible as real for Mars.   We could think that arteasian springs would be possible for Mars, but the cold icy regolith would both make it plausable but being so cold would tend to inhibit it most places. 
Also the evaporation process would tend to deposite evaporites, which would plug such springs.   And dust in the wind would also likely help to plug them up.
Places where I might be thinking they may be more possible would be the North rim of Hellas, and also major canyon sides and bottoms.  But I think if they ever esist, they pug up easily, or if they can persist for a while and form a pool, that tends to freeze to the bottom and dry up from the top, and also get covered with dirt.  So, probably hard to identify, just another sub-surface ice deposit.
For arteasian wells, there could be a possibility in some locations.  You might have to drive an electrical current through a set of such wells, to keep them from freezing shut.
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Spacenut, I think your concern about extensive shaft mining is valid.  I think it would be wise to look at other methods to obtain materials before resorting to serious shaft mining, in unsuitable rock.
Done.


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