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#1 2018-10-24 20:08:42

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,537

How Much Water Does Mars Have?

I was searching for something else, but I came on a number to answer that in this link:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti … t-on-mars/
Quote:

Steve Clifford, an expert in Martian hydrology at the Planetary Science Institute in Arizona who was not part of the project, is not ready to count out the role of oceans in forming Mars’s brines. "You need the presence of water to have these brines," he says. Clifford points out that whatever water survives on Mars today—and researchers think there is enough to cover the entire surface with water at least half a kilometer if not a full kilometer deep—requires even more to have existed in earlier times, essentially assuring the Red Planet’s somewhat watery past.

So of course one of my pet projects is to use solar energy in a relatively primitive way to warm up water and inject it into an ice covered pool.  So it would seem that there is enough where you could fill massive basins with ice covered pools.  Likely dust storms would dump dust onto their surfaces and eventually protect them to some extent from evaporation.

I am going to try to be careful not to venture too far into terraforming Mars, and power production as the topic here is "Water on Mars".
However it is indeed a Terraforming and power production and storage technique.  The quantity of water mentions encourages me in every way.  I will go to the Terraforming section with this same material now, and perhaps elsewhere.

Done

Last edited by Void (2018-10-24 20:15:37)


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#2 2018-11-07 13:09:17

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
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Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

https://phys.org/news/2018-11-geoscient … earth.html

The article indicates alternate methods for the Earth to have water, and that they speculate that the Earth has;
Quote:

Adding up the quantities cached in several places, Wu says, "Our planet hides the majority of its hydrogen inside, with roughly two global oceans' worth in the mantle, four to five in the core, and of course, one global ocean at the surface."

And then so I think that this might apply to Mars, and just maybe even the Moon, depending on how the Moon was formed.  Most theories of the Moons formation would say no, but we will need to have better ground truth from the Moon to know for sure.

If during the history of Mars Hydrogen tended to migrate from the lower regions, then it may be that all porosity of the regolith could be icy, except for the vacuum dried surface.

It actually makes sense that underground cryovolcanism would have occurred during and after the real volcanic eruptions became seldom or none.

Done

Last edited by Void (2018-11-07 13:12:20)


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#3 2018-11-07 18:35:53

SpaceNut
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Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

Ship 500 gallons of water to mars and do salinity test for evaporation with each gallon testing for when it freezes when exposed to the mars atmosphere. Tag the water with a dry that can be traced from the orbiting satelites to watch where it goes. Repeat until you have liquid water that does not eveporate away.....

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#4 2018-11-08 01:23:16

M-Albion-3D
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From: Malibu CA
Registered: 2018-05-02
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Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

SpaceNut wrote:

Ship 500 gallons of water to mars and do salinity test for evaporation with each gallon testing for when it freezes when exposed to the mars atmosphere. Tag the water with a dry that can be traced from the orbiting satelites to watch where it goes. Repeat until you have liquid water that does not eveporate away.....

There's already much quantity of water on the surface derived from condensation and collected. Clue, look for the reflections in the pools?

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#5 2018-11-08 19:13:57

SpaceNut
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Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

heat mirage look like water....

137.jpg

1.jpg

Mirage.jpg

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#6 2018-11-09 01:00:54

M-Albion-3D
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From: Malibu CA
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Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

Nice examples of "Earth desert mirages"

No stranger to the western US deserts, I've clocked hundreds of miles, off road in the Mojave desert aboard my trustee two wheeled machines and have seen too many mirages to wave a stick at.

The difference is this. If you see a "inverted" reflection "in" the vision, it's more than likely water.

Still, a mirage requires less dense hot air at the surface both of which are supposedly not present on Mars. The possibility of "inferior" mirages I guess could occur but unlikely.

I have some 3D images showing vast water puddles from the Pathfinder lander but you will need anaglyph glasses. Do you have a pair?

Last edited by M-Albion-3D (2018-11-09 01:54:33)

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#7 2018-12-22 07:41:56

SpaceNut
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Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

reposting

Well a prolonged stay waiting to fill up a carrier will take energy even doing nothing just to keep it possible to be in a useable. Then you need the energy for the equipment to carve it out of the solid ice dirt fields. The equipment to move it into the carrier and those equipment will also need heating to keep it useable.

https://news.yahoo.com/moody-photo-mars … 37923.html

https://www.engadget.com/2018/12/21/mar … ev-crater/

https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/Eafvu … 9d4dfc3c3d

Mars Express satellite captured images of the 50-mile wide Korolev crater filled with ice. Which has remained even in summer.

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#8 2018-12-22 07:44:06

SpaceNut
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Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

louis wrote:

I just checked on Wikipedia and find this crater has 2200 cubic kms of WATER ice! I make that to be about 2.2 trillion tonnes of water!!! No wonder it doesn't all evaporate in summer!


SpaceNut wrote:

https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/Eafvu … 9d4dfc3c3d

Mars Express satellite captured images of the 50-mile wide Korolev crater filled with ice. Which has remained even in summer.


At 73 degrees north, it's not as near the pole as I expected.  It's probably about 2000 kms or so away from some of the best insolation on Mars at around 30 degrees north. I suspect we can find better water sources in terms of location but if worse came to worse you could definitely have a constant chain of water extraction robot rovers travelling to the crater and returning, each laden with a couple of tonnes of water.

We now have a means to go to mars to stay with an estimate of a valueable resource for man.

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#9 2018-12-22 08:49:08

Void
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Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

I consider this to be very important information.  And as history will tell you it may be just what I want.

http://www.astronomy.com/news/photos/20 … -water-ice
Quote:

This remarkable photograph is a combination of five different image strips recombined into one that reveals the 51-mile (82 km) wide crater and its ever-present sheet of ice. Due to the cold trap phenomenon, when the thin air settles over the ice, it cools down and creates a chilly layer that behaves as a shield, keeping Korolev continuously icy.

I wasn't aware of this cold trap phenomenon.

What you have there is a giant heat sink.  Potentially a fabulous one.

All sorts of potentials.  For instance Heliostats around the rim with solar power towers.  Yes the Martian northern winter would be very tiresome and probably could be deadly.  But the Martian year is 686.98 Earth solar days.  So, with hyperloop for instance a migratory method of habitation for most of the population may be merited as efficient.  Technically you are associating the bulk of your population to more available photons for the total of the Martian year.

Lets talk "Land of the Midnight Sun".
https://www.mapsofworld.com/lat_long/sw … -long.html

This "Body of Ice" will be even more northerly than that, so I can expect that out of the days of a Martian year, you could at least host a manor population for perhaps 1/3 of that year, the summer.  That is not to say that some people could not winter over, perhaps for hazard duty pay, to keep an eye on things, maybe keep some of the machinery running spring and fall.  And then I presume that any surface equipment would have to have transformation capabilities so that the CO2 Snow load would not damage it over the winter.

So then lets suppose the bulk of economic activity at this site would occur over 8 months of a summer.  If I understand then that is the biggest slice of the yearly budget of photons for that area.

Of course then I suggest that there be other locations to go to during the Martian northern winter.

You see I have been thinking all this time that we would have to put a covering over the ice of a melted lake.  But here, if we are clever, and balance things out, then the cold trap may be sufficient to protect the ice.  And anyway it might take a very long time to evaporate all of that ice.  (Or to melt it).

Do you like nuclear power?  Heat sink.

And with that much water, you could indeed both melt water under the  ice, and the heat it up and vent it to atmosphere through a turbine, possibly getting the Relative Humidity up, and getting some of the vapors into higher atmosphere, where the U.V. may just cause the emergence of Oxygen and Ozone.  But it is a method to generate an energy consumable first of all.  Remember that during quite a stretch of time, the sun will not set, so the concerns of night condensations to fogs and snows, would be quite reduced.  And anyway if it condensed out, some of it would drop back down to the lake, so what?  You were generating electrical power.



And if you remember the boring company, there should be all kinds of opportunity to make tunnels and caverns in the rock.  Also boring tunnels under the ice at the edges.  As I have speculated on, on many occasions, if you have melted bodies of water under the ice, and if you also have half filled tunnels you have potentials for aquiculture by many various methods.

Last edited by Void (2018-12-22 09:09:26)


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#10 2018-12-22 13:14:17

Void
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Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

This is really looking better and better all the time.

Imagine this.  You build a "Cone" structure out of Boring Company tailings, fibers, and some kind of a binder.
You put solar cells all over the outside of it.
You put heliostats all around it.
You put a solar power tower boiler(s) somewhere on this.  The boiler may or may not have a turbine.

So, lets just call it the "Marctic" summer smile  (We also could have an "Mantarctic" summer).

But here we are looking at Martic-S, or something like that.

Solar cells are likely to be a nice way to get on demand power during the Marctic-S, most of the time, with small night-times towards end of spring and the beginning fall.

So far with our experience with solar panel energy, on Earth, we have needs to store energy for cloudy days, and for nighttime.

Here, I intend to greatly reduce that need, and to also store energy over a seasonal length, and to also cover for global dust storms in part.

In the time of the Midnight sun, you will have a sun low in the sky for the most part.  Also it will dip down towards or underneath the horizon at times, in a typical Martic-S day.

As the sun appears to circle the "Cone" during the Martic-S, naturally the solar cells will pick up energy.  However the ones on the reverse side will be idle without heliostats.

There can be at least 3 energy loads.
1) Direct electric from solar panels.
2) Heating our artificial sea/lake.  (This could involve electricity producing turbines, or may not).
3) Venting water vapor to the atmosphere, to generate electricity with a turbine, or simply to try to do weather/climate modifications.

So, I am thinking that the primary objective to think of at first is to provide a electrical power source which is relatively steady, and requires a minimum of electrical power storage (Batteries?).

So the heliostats, a swarm of robots, carefully add photons to the solar panels as a preference typically to provide electrical power as desired.  Particularly when the sun is low in the sky, or when demand is higher.

But in part and at other times, they can aim at a boiler process which could either melt sea/lake water, or vent water vapor to the high atmosphere (We might hope).  Each of these could involve a turbo-electric process.

……

So what of the CO2 processes you have been working on?  Well, I will let you do yours.  The Sea/Lake is intended to store heat over the winter however I will mention.

You could mine CO2 if you wish.  Robots after all over time that should get better and better.

Salts in the sea/lake would allow room temperature in the bottom layers.  However I am guessing they have to be added to the lake.  Either directly as salts, or by the rusting say of sand dune materials to also produce Hydrogen.

Also you could build a "Cold Cone", which would have tubing attached to it.  Tubing which could retain pressures high enough for liquid CO2.  In that case you may be able to harness the cold of Mars, year around to generate electricity.  It would be a closed loop system.

Getting tired.  Have though of the migration method.

Tubes, I think.  Don't think I prefer hyperloop.  Rather pressurized tubes, busses with a portable potty method, a water supply some food.  Beds.  Self driving.  Going 50 - 150 mph, that should not be so bad.

As they are a migration method, you only need one tube.  The busses then travel back for more passengers by traveling on the surface.  They don't need to be pressurized for that.

Consideration of Murphy's law advised.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-12-22 13:37:17)


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#11 2018-12-22 20:02:10

SpaceNut
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Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

Korolev is a crater in the Mare Boreum quadrangle of Mars, located at 73° north latitude and 195.5° west longitude.

http://www.planetary.brown.edu/planetar … d_etal.pdf
KOROLEV CRATER, MARS: CHARACTERISTICS AND ORIGIN

It sure opens up a Mars of possibilities...

Of course this mars would be much easier for water if its oceans were still around
Ejwa3SI.png

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#12 2020-09-28 09:51:10

tahanson43206
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Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

For Void ... here is an update to your interesting topic ...

https://www.yahoo.com/news/salty-water- … 00888.html

The article at the link above contains a healthy mix of scientific reporting in favor of the proposition (deep radar observations) and equally persuasive scientific argument against the proposition.

The radar data itself would appear to be accepted by all parties.

One detail I found intriguing was a guess that the interior of Mars may contain more heat than is generally thought to be present.

The lack of active volcanoes would seem (to me at least) to be a signal that the heat in the core (that had to have been present when the planet formed) is not being replenished by radioactivity as it is on Earth.

Still, one scientist interviewed for the article at the link above seems to think there might be enough residual heat flowing from the interior to keep water liquid at locations in the crust where it would otherwise be frozen.

It is that sort of healthy debate that ** should ** lead to future discoveries.

(th)

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#13 2020-09-28 17:44:50

SpaceNut
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Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

I did see an article for Mars southern pole showed 2 sea water lakes under the dirty dry ice.

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#14 2020-09-28 19:18:16

Void
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Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

I desparately want to avoid politics, and the judgement of decisions made.  But need to at least say that there as apparently a time follo
wing the 70's in the USA at least where so many of the powers at the wheel had higher priorities, or relegious pseudo relegious reasons to stiffle the manned space program, that they wanted a bone dry Moon and almost waterless cold Mars as the story.  (Don't go out there, there be demons).  And I cannot fault all of them.  Priority #1 was to keep the USA intact, if we were ever to return.  But of course that fossilized and became a relegion with and "Old Testiment".  Now ever so slowly, a "New Testiment" has a chance to be written.  Possibly it is required that time give more people of the fossil type a dirt nap.  Unfortunately that is how it works or at lest is working so far.
------
Enough politics. 
Let's compair Ceres and Mars.  Ceres small but thought to have cryovolcanism, somehow, warmer than it is supposed to be.  But Mars closer to the sun and larger, with evidence of massive volcano's......Cryovolcano's, are you kidding?
If Ceres had had an astmosphere like Mars, the salt deposits seen would probably have been covered over with dust.  And other evidence of cryovolcanism erased.  Particularly Ares Mons with Ceres with such an atmosphere, and if the sunlight were raised to that of Mars, would have evaporated, and either be lost to space, or more likely redeposited, yes under dust.
------
The Moon, Luna, is said to be warmer than it is supposed to be.  How is that explained?  Ceres is said to be warmer than expected.  Why?
For the moons of Jupiter and Saturn, being warmer than expected is explained with tidal heating.  My thinking is there may be other factors.
The solar wind, electric discharges, caused by differential sunlight exposure on a planets surface.  In the case of Mars we think the dust storms have electrical effects.  We also think thta their may be a water table just ~750 meters, or ~2500 feet down below the surface.  Such a water table could serve as a current carrier for ground currents.  Also the atmosphere of Mars with it's current composition and pressure is said to be much more conductive than is our atmophere.
-----
The standard story for volcano's up until now is they are dead, but now modified to probably dead since 20 million years ago.
I don't know for sure how old the big ones like Olympus Mons are, but maybe billions of years.  We have nothing like that on Earth, because of plate tectonics and water and wind erosion I presume.
My best guess is that what may happen is a time constant.  The volcanos get more dense from cooling over millions of years.  The magma pockets that may be rising have no outlet for heat, and become less dense.  So then perhaps like an iceberg calfing off of an ice shelf, one day the crust breaks around the volcano, and, (This is reaching), perhaps the mountain itself shatters to a degree and provides a pathway for the magma to erupt though the cracks.  That leaves one to wonder why it would not erupt from the bottom, so I am rather weak on that.  Perhaps the fractures around the perimiter seal off, as magma heats them and they swell shut with the heat.  Perhaps the mass of the mountain insulates the magma.  A far reaching best guess.
That might mean however that when Mars has a major Marsquake, it is a biggie.  If true, probably millions of years off if ever.
I myself am not satisfied with this thinking but I think it may be somewhat close.
------
Back to Cryovolcanism.  There is some though that the sourthern hemisphere of Mars is higher than that of the North, because of an "Additive Impact", at some point in it's history.  Where some people thought that the North was low because of an impact gouge, some now think that something hit the south hemisphere, and melted into pancake batter sort of and flowed a bit before solidifying.  In some ways this could suggest why the southern debths might be warmer.  The impact added more heat.  The extra rock layer insulated the southern debths.  Maybe the impactor had more radioactive materials.  Obviously I don't know.
------
Back to cryovolcanism on Mars.  We are generally told that the ice slabs were likely from a previous climate situation, where snow was deposited.  That seems reasonable.  Their arguments are in peril though as they keep finding evidence of significant but smaller deposts nearer the equator, maybe even at the equator.  (Maybe, Maybe).
I can be realitivly comfortable with their story.  It may be true or partially true.  We really don't know Mars as much as we should want to.
Risky speculation:  (My papers are in peril! sad  My standing with the scientific papacy may lead to stick and stone, maybe a stake?).
Well obiously I don't care that much.
I have thoughs about cryovolcanism for Mars that suggest that that is what those ice slabs may be in some cases.  Heritic, Heritic!  And then again, maybe I get a pie in the face.  I would like Lemon Marange.
Where I have problems with it is obviously where is the heat to drive it?  But also how does it erupt above the presumed planetary water table, presumed to be ~750 meters or ~2500 feet down?
Freezing water down below has been proposed by some to push water up through fractures.  That requires a thaw and feeze situation.  Daily cycles arn't going to work for that.  Good chance seasonal might not work, except in the summer to thaw the surface fractures enough that pressurized brine might seep out on the slopes of some craters in some locations.
Maybe Axis tilts could pressurize aquifers with a thaw and freeze cycle.
How ever, as a heritic, it is my responsibilty to risk the rack, to suggest freeze thaw cycles induced by electrical flows from global dust storms.
-----
And so, I do not claim that for the said to exist south polar lakes, but it would be the nature of electric flow to follow the path of least resistance, and that will be thorugh the atmosphere at first and similar to lightning into the gound to produce ground currents.  This could possibly thaw an aquifer temporarily, and then as normal sets in it may freeze up, pressurizing.  Then a summer thaw may release a flow to the surface.
A precarious position on my part, I understand.  I might loose my tenure!
This in part could explain the tiny flows on the walls of some craters.
But what if you had a really big water eruption?
Well presumably, a pool of ice covered water.  That would then freeze to the bottom.  High spots above regolith would evaporate off.  Low, flat spots would be covered in air borne dust and perhaps volcanic and impact ejecta.
It appears that the upper portions of these ice slabs are partially eroded by sublimation.  That is to be expected even if it was deposited by snow.
But, that would be insulation as the vacuum filled VOIDS smile would act like thermos bottles to a degree.
If the water eruption model were true, (Somehow), then a subsequent eruption would add to the fill.  The question would be would it flow over the top, or would the old ice float up?
------
Well, I myself am very not so sure about some of the wilder things I have said.  However the snow deposits lasting on the ~equator for so long also is a bit shakey.
------
Oh, is that sticks and stones?  Well as Mark Twain was supposed to have said, "I was happy to say "I don't know"".   
And don't don't bother with the Spanish Inquisition, I am a sissy, I will racant as necessary.
smile
Done.

Oh by the way, I must confess, that I think that it is possible that the solar wind can induce electric currents in objects that it passed by.
Done Dum.
The above may be proven wrong, BS.
However the main point is how would you recognize cryovolcanism on Mars when it might occur else than a polar ice cap.  It would erode as exposed, and leave a dirt covered stump I think.
Mud volcano's would be an exception as they might just freeze up and/or dry out.
Dum Dum.
I seem to be still spewing.  Well if somehow an aqufer of lesser dimensions were melted, and then froze, I suggest that if it froze from all sides, the only pressure relief might be downward into a lower aquifer, of if that were not possible upward to the surface to be an ice volcano.
Dum to the.......Not for sure.

No...."I don't know" smile


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#15 Yesterday 09:04:43

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 3,600

Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

For Void re #14

Your post is dated September 28, so (hopefully) you had not yet seen this report:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/buried-lakes … 15931.html

I'll be interested in your evaluation of the findings.  In particular, I'll be interested in your evaluation of the discussion about persistence of life in the observed brines.

(th)

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