New Mars Forums

Official discussion forum of The Mars Society and MarsNews.com

You are not logged in.

Announcement

Announcement: We've recently made changes to our user database and have removed inactive and spam users. If you can not login, please re-register.

#1 2018-10-24 20:08:42

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,992

How Much Water Does Mars Have?

I was searching for something else, but I came on a number to answer that in this link:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti … t-on-mars/
Quote:

Steve Clifford, an expert in Martian hydrology at the Planetary Science Institute in Arizona who was not part of the project, is not ready to count out the role of oceans in forming Mars’s brines. "You need the presence of water to have these brines," he says. Clifford points out that whatever water survives on Mars today—and researchers think there is enough to cover the entire surface with water at least half a kilometer if not a full kilometer deep—requires even more to have existed in earlier times, essentially assuring the Red Planet’s somewhat watery past.

So of course one of my pet projects is to use solar energy in a relatively primitive way to warm up water and inject it into an ice covered pool.  So it would seem that there is enough where you could fill massive basins with ice covered pools.  Likely dust storms would dump dust onto their surfaces and eventually protect them to some extent from evaporation.

I am going to try to be careful not to venture too far into terraforming Mars, and power production as the topic here is "Water on Mars".
However it is indeed a Terraforming and power production and storage technique.  The quantity of water mentions encourages me in every way.  I will go to the Terraforming section with this same material now, and perhaps elsewhere.

Done

Last edited by Void (2018-10-24 20:15:37)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

Offline

#2 2018-11-07 13:09:17

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,992

Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

https://phys.org/news/2018-11-geoscient … earth.html

The article indicates alternate methods for the Earth to have water, and that they speculate that the Earth has;
Quote:

Adding up the quantities cached in several places, Wu says, "Our planet hides the majority of its hydrogen inside, with roughly two global oceans' worth in the mantle, four to five in the core, and of course, one global ocean at the surface."

And then so I think that this might apply to Mars, and just maybe even the Moon, depending on how the Moon was formed.  Most theories of the Moons formation would say no, but we will need to have better ground truth from the Moon to know for sure.

If during the history of Mars Hydrogen tended to migrate from the lower regions, then it may be that all porosity of the regolith could be icy, except for the vacuum dried surface.

It actually makes sense that underground cryovolcanism would have occurred during and after the real volcanic eruptions became seldom or none.

Done

Last edited by Void (2018-11-07 13:12:20)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

Offline

#3 2018-11-07 18:35:53

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,319

Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

Ship 500 gallons of water to mars and do salinity test for evaporation with each gallon testing for when it freezes when exposed to the mars atmosphere. Tag the water with a dry that can be traced from the orbiting satelites to watch where it goes. Repeat until you have liquid water that does not eveporate away.....

Offline

#4 2018-11-08 01:23:16

M-Albion-3D
Member
From: Malibu CA
Registered: 2018-05-02
Posts: 62

Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

SpaceNut wrote:

Ship 500 gallons of water to mars and do salinity test for evaporation with each gallon testing for when it freezes when exposed to the mars atmosphere. Tag the water with a dry that can be traced from the orbiting satelites to watch where it goes. Repeat until you have liquid water that does not eveporate away.....

There's already much quantity of water on the surface derived from condensation and collected. Clue, look for the reflections in the pools?

Offline

#5 2018-11-08 19:13:57

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,319

Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

heat mirage look like water....

137.jpg

1.jpg

Mirage.jpg

Offline

#6 2018-11-09 01:00:54

M-Albion-3D
Member
From: Malibu CA
Registered: 2018-05-02
Posts: 62

Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

Nice examples of "Earth desert mirages"

No stranger to the western US deserts, I've clocked hundreds of miles, off road in the Mojave desert aboard my trustee two wheeled machines and have seen too many mirages to wave a stick at.

The difference is this. If you see a "inverted" reflection "in" the vision, it's more than likely water.

Still, a mirage requires less dense hot air at the surface both of which are supposedly not present on Mars. The possibility of "inferior" mirages I guess could occur but unlikely.

I have some 3D images showing vast water puddles from the Pathfinder lander but you will need anaglyph glasses. Do you have a pair?

Last edited by M-Albion-3D (2018-11-09 01:54:33)

Offline

#7 2018-12-22 07:41:56

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,319

Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

reposting

Well a prolonged stay waiting to fill up a carrier will take energy even doing nothing just to keep it possible to be in a useable. Then you need the energy for the equipment to carve it out of the solid ice dirt fields. The equipment to move it into the carrier and those equipment will also need heating to keep it useable.

https://news.yahoo.com/moody-photo-mars … 37923.html

https://www.engadget.com/2018/12/21/mar … ev-crater/

https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/Eafvu … 9d4dfc3c3d

Mars Express satellite captured images of the 50-mile wide Korolev crater filled with ice. Which has remained even in summer.

Offline

#8 2018-12-22 07:44:06

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,319

Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

louis wrote:

I just checked on Wikipedia and find this crater has 2200 cubic kms of WATER ice! I make that to be about 2.2 trillion tonnes of water!!! No wonder it doesn't all evaporate in summer!


SpaceNut wrote:

https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/Eafvu … 9d4dfc3c3d

Mars Express satellite captured images of the 50-mile wide Korolev crater filled with ice. Which has remained even in summer.


At 73 degrees north, it's not as near the pole as I expected.  It's probably about 2000 kms or so away from some of the best insolation on Mars at around 30 degrees north. I suspect we can find better water sources in terms of location but if worse came to worse you could definitely have a constant chain of water extraction robot rovers travelling to the crater and returning, each laden with a couple of tonnes of water.

We now have a means to go to mars to stay with an estimate of a valueable resource for man.

Offline

#9 2018-12-22 08:49:08

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,992

Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

I consider this to be very important information.  And as history will tell you it may be just what I want.

http://www.astronomy.com/news/photos/20 … -water-ice
Quote:

This remarkable photograph is a combination of five different image strips recombined into one that reveals the 51-mile (82 km) wide crater and its ever-present sheet of ice. Due to the cold trap phenomenon, when the thin air settles over the ice, it cools down and creates a chilly layer that behaves as a shield, keeping Korolev continuously icy.

I wasn't aware of this cold trap phenomenon.

What you have there is a giant heat sink.  Potentially a fabulous one.

All sorts of potentials.  For instance Heliostats around the rim with solar power towers.  Yes the Martian northern winter would be very tiresome and probably could be deadly.  But the Martian year is 686.98 Earth solar days.  So, with hyperloop for instance a migratory method of habitation for most of the population may be merited as efficient.  Technically you are associating the bulk of your population to more available photons for the total of the Martian year.

Lets talk "Land of the Midnight Sun".
https://www.mapsofworld.com/lat_long/sw … -long.html

This "Body of Ice" will be even more northerly than that, so I can expect that out of the days of a Martian year, you could at least host a manor population for perhaps 1/3 of that year, the summer.  That is not to say that some people could not winter over, perhaps for hazard duty pay, to keep an eye on things, maybe keep some of the machinery running spring and fall.  And then I presume that any surface equipment would have to have transformation capabilities so that the CO2 Snow load would not damage it over the winter.

So then lets suppose the bulk of economic activity at this site would occur over 8 months of a summer.  If I understand then that is the biggest slice of the yearly budget of photons for that area.

Of course then I suggest that there be other locations to go to during the Martian northern winter.

You see I have been thinking all this time that we would have to put a covering over the ice of a melted lake.  But here, if we are clever, and balance things out, then the cold trap may be sufficient to protect the ice.  And anyway it might take a very long time to evaporate all of that ice.  (Or to melt it).

Do you like nuclear power?  Heat sink.

And with that much water, you could indeed both melt water under the  ice, and the heat it up and vent it to atmosphere through a turbine, possibly getting the Relative Humidity up, and getting some of the vapors into higher atmosphere, where the U.V. may just cause the emergence of Oxygen and Ozone.  But it is a method to generate an energy consumable first of all.  Remember that during quite a stretch of time, the sun will not set, so the concerns of night condensations to fogs and snows, would be quite reduced.  And anyway if it condensed out, some of it would drop back down to the lake, so what?  You were generating electrical power.



And if you remember the boring company, there should be all kinds of opportunity to make tunnels and caverns in the rock.  Also boring tunnels under the ice at the edges.  As I have speculated on, on many occasions, if you have melted bodies of water under the ice, and if you also have half filled tunnels you have potentials for aquiculture by many various methods.

Last edited by Void (2018-12-22 09:09:26)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

Offline

#10 2018-12-22 13:14:17

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,992

Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

This is really looking better and better all the time.

Imagine this.  You build a "Cone" structure out of Boring Company tailings, fibers, and some kind of a binder.
You put solar cells all over the outside of it.
You put heliostats all around it.
You put a solar power tower boiler(s) somewhere on this.  The boiler may or may not have a turbine.

So, lets just call it the "Marctic" summer smile  (We also could have an "Mantarctic" summer).

But here we are looking at Martic-S, or something like that.

Solar cells are likely to be a nice way to get on demand power during the Marctic-S, most of the time, with small night-times towards end of spring and the beginning fall.

So far with our experience with solar panel energy, on Earth, we have needs to store energy for cloudy days, and for nighttime.

Here, I intend to greatly reduce that need, and to also store energy over a seasonal length, and to also cover for global dust storms in part.

In the time of the Midnight sun, you will have a sun low in the sky for the most part.  Also it will dip down towards or underneath the horizon at times, in a typical Martic-S day.

As the sun appears to circle the "Cone" during the Martic-S, naturally the solar cells will pick up energy.  However the ones on the reverse side will be idle without heliostats.

There can be at least 3 energy loads.
1) Direct electric from solar panels.
2) Heating our artificial sea/lake.  (This could involve electricity producing turbines, or may not).
3) Venting water vapor to the atmosphere, to generate electricity with a turbine, or simply to try to do weather/climate modifications.

So, I am thinking that the primary objective to think of at first is to provide a electrical power source which is relatively steady, and requires a minimum of electrical power storage (Batteries?).

So the heliostats, a swarm of robots, carefully add photons to the solar panels as a preference typically to provide electrical power as desired.  Particularly when the sun is low in the sky, or when demand is higher.

But in part and at other times, they can aim at a boiler process which could either melt sea/lake water, or vent water vapor to the high atmosphere (We might hope).  Each of these could involve a turbo-electric process.

……

So what of the CO2 processes you have been working on?  Well, I will let you do yours.  The Sea/Lake is intended to store heat over the winter however I will mention.

You could mine CO2 if you wish.  Robots after all over time that should get better and better.

Salts in the sea/lake would allow room temperature in the bottom layers.  However I am guessing they have to be added to the lake.  Either directly as salts, or by the rusting say of sand dune materials to also produce Hydrogen.

Also you could build a "Cold Cone", which would have tubing attached to it.  Tubing which could retain pressures high enough for liquid CO2.  In that case you may be able to harness the cold of Mars, year around to generate electricity.  It would be a closed loop system.

Getting tired.  Have though of the migration method.

Tubes, I think.  Don't think I prefer hyperloop.  Rather pressurized tubes, busses with a portable potty method, a water supply some food.  Beds.  Self driving.  Going 50 - 150 mph, that should not be so bad.

As they are a migration method, you only need one tube.  The busses then travel back for more passengers by traveling on the surface.  They don't need to be pressurized for that.

Consideration of Murphy's law advised.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-12-22 13:37:17)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

Offline

#11 2018-12-22 20:02:10

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,319

Re: How Much Water Does Mars Have?

Korolev is a crater in the Mare Boreum quadrangle of Mars, located at 73° north latitude and 195.5° west longitude.

http://www.planetary.brown.edu/planetar … d_etal.pdf
KOROLEV CRATER, MARS: CHARACTERISTICS AND ORIGIN

It sure opens up a Mars of possibilities...

Of course this mars would be much easier for water if its oceans were still around
Ejwa3SI.png

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB