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#101 2019-10-01 16:22:57

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Now for others to see these events we need a mars recording and television system, whether this is digital or network streamed....

That also mean minor as well pro-teams of each to make the competing aspects of the sports work. This brings in sports doctors, trainers and so many more jobs to fill mars up with for each of the different sporting activity. Sure rules will adapt and weighting of the people will be needed but it would be interesting still to watch. Fanning out from those when we have many cities we can then launch an Olympics and such events.

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#102 2019-10-01 16:24:35

SpaceNut
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Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Reposting for the other businesses that mars could have:

RobertDyck wrote:

Winnipeg has cultural facilities for hoity-toity people: Royal Winnipeg Ballet, Centennial Concert Hall, Pantages Playhouse Theater (live theater), Royal Manitoba Theatre Centre, Warehouse Theatre, Winnipeg Art Gallery. There's also the Manitoba Museum with attached Planetarium and Science Centre. Guess which I'm interested in

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#103 2019-10-01 16:26:03

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Re: My Hacienda On Mars

The plots for entertainment keeps growing as we think of mars growing in population. All work and no play makes us a very dull people's....

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#104 2019-10-10 09:28:31

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
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Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For SpaceNut re topic in general ...

Edit 2019/10/14 Revising post meeting:

A (now) longer term concept is to prepare a low key poster board style presentation on a rotating small mammal habitat for Low Earth Orbit deployment.

The purpose would be to evaluate the effect of .38 Gravity on reproduction of Earth mammals.

An interest along these lines would lead to launch of a rotating habitat for Low Earth Orbit, to simulate .38 gravity while maintaining all other variables as close to Earth normal as possible.

In particular, this would include daily interaction (via telepresence) of care givers with the animals chosen for the experiment.  Since the animals under consideration are highly social, the psychological needs of the subjects would be part of the experiment protocol.

To make the proposal even more palatable to the intended audience, i would propose to return the subject animals to Earth after a reproductive cycle, so that the newborn can be given the same introduction to people they receive on Earth today.

In any case, what I'll be looking for is feedback (doubt, concerns, encouragement, etc) from the audience.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2019-10-14 06:47:19)

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#105 2019-10-17 08:04:55

SpaceNut
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Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Missing for all of the plots is central space port command structure, satellite launch build for communications, land communications such as in cellphone com ect, rocket factory for import export logistics.

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#106 2019-10-17 08:22:49

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
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Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Tom, ISS was supposed to have a Centrifuge Accommodation Module to do exactly that. The US cancelled it, the Italy paid for it and Japan built it. It was sitting in the staging building at KSC awaiting launch, but never was. Some at NASA wanted one more Shuttle flight to launch it, and there was one more ET. But if anything went wrong they wouldn't be able to send another Shuttle for rescue so Obama wouldn't permit it. There was also a proposal called TransLife which would have done what you're proposing as a standalone satellite. Didn't happen.

I still think we need the Centrifuge module for ISS. It could be launch d on Atlas V and a Cygnus service module could rendezvous with ISS for berthing. Think of a normal Cygnus mission but with a whole station module instead of the pressurized cargo module.

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#107 2019-10-17 12:34:22

tahanson43206
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Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For RobertDyck ...

Thanks for this (to me important) reminder of work already done and potentially still viable.

By any chance, is there a way to find out if the equipment is still stored somewhere?

The way things are going, Elon might be willing to toss it up if a GoFundMe operation comes up with enough to cover it.

Re-reading your post ... the module might not work other than with the ISS ?

(th)

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#108 2019-10-17 17:53:57

RobertDyck
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Re: My Hacienda On Mars

The module was designed to get power from ISS. Falcon 9 could probably launch it if expended. Falcon Heavy could with all 3 core stages recovered.

According to Wikipedia it's currently an outdoor display at Tsukuba Japan.
220px-Centrifuge_%28ISS%29_in_TKSC-01.jpg

Last edited by RobertDyck (2019-10-17 17:54:30)

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#109 2019-10-17 18:55:27

tahanson43206
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Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For RobertDyck re #108 ....

Thanks for finding that module!

The test subjects would have been moving fairly rapidly in that device, to achieve Mars gravity.

if we humans decide to try again, I hope the test rig will have a greater diameter, on the assumption higher level test subjects would appreciate it.

A dumbbell design (as discussed frequently in this forum) might include two modules like the one you showed in #108, spinning at the ends of a cable.

A power module (with solar panels) might sit in the hub of the spinning habitats.

(th)

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#110 2019-10-17 19:11:30

SpaceNut
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Re: My Hacienda On Mars

You will find more in this topic International Space Station (ISS / Alpha)

Gave the artificial gravity topic a bump

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#111 2019-10-18 04:27:49

Terraformer
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Re: My Hacienda On Mars

If being used for exercise, how big does a centrifuge have to be? Could we do a full regimen lying down, allowing us to get away with quite a small radius?


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#112 2019-10-18 04:42:45

tahanson43206
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Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For Terraformer re #111

The "Gold Standard" for rotating habitats is the one worked out many decades ago for the Stanford Torus.

The optimum rate of rotation for humans is 1 RPM, so the size of the wheel you create is a function of the simulated gravity you need.

SpaceNut recently posted a link to a simulated gravity calculator, in another topic.

That said, this topic is intended for discussion of creating a virtual community of 2750 plots in Sagan City (2018).

I am actively recruiting individuals willing to take on the responsibility to develop practical plans for production of goods or delivery of services on Mars, as part of a community intended to collectively support a first world level of civilization.

In your case, I am hoping you will develop your previously posted ideas for growing bamboo and making paper.

Were you to decide to develop your ideas along these lines, the group would have the opportunity to see how it could meet your needs for supplies, as the principles of Specialization and Division of Labor work their magic.

(th)

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#113 2019-10-18 18:36:18

SpaceNut
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Re: My Hacienda On Mars

The fall for the area has lots of carnivals and fairs some small to quite large each having there own flair to what the attracction and flavor for the many to come to. The agricultural exhibit style is popular while others taylor there wares to rides and very animals or curcus acts. Some have crash up derbies from cars to busses and even car pit shows from jumping them throu hoops along with singing and so much more from the food to the trinket booths. Its a fun time to spend, spend spend for what you want to enjoy.

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#114 2019-10-19 08:26:08

tahanson43206
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Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For SpaceNut re #113

Thank you for your addition to the imagery that goes so well with this topic.  It causes me to wonder if the seasons can be replicated on Mars.

The (biological) seasons on Earth are a response to changes resulting from the path of the Earth around the Sun.  In an artificial environment such as seems likely on Mars (or off Earth in general) the biological responses we see on Earth might be stimulated by appropriate management of the environment.  Two changes that I can think of are lighting (intensity and angle in the "sky") and temperature of the air.  With suitable management along these lines, it might be hoped that the phenomena we (northerners) think of as "fall" could be experienced by kids growing up away from Earth.

***
FYI ... I am attempting to recruit people to help to populate the My Hacienda community simulation.  If these efforts are successful, you may get a chance to meet folks who would not ordinarily look for the NewMars forum, or any space advocacy group, for that matter.

My hope is to find people who have the powers of imagination that would allow them to cooperate in simulation of a community of 2750 plots with multiple residents per plot, all working on manufacture of goods and providing services that would be needed to achieve and maintain a first world level of civilization in a location away from Earth.

The NewMars simulation would be carried out without investment of any kind, except for those investments an individual might make to increase knowledge related to the specialization they have chosen.  Examples could include purchase of books or trips to locations where the chosen specialty may be active on Earth.

The "real world" simulation, on the other hand, would require significant investment by funders who are willing to contribute to the goal of demonstration of how a community like the one envisioned here might work on Earth.  In this case, the funders would be expecting NO return other than academic papers and recognition in plaques for their support.

I am deeply skeptical of the "make a buck" economic concept that seems to prevalent in these acquisitive times.  It would be far better (if it can be achieved) for the Mars undertaking to be fully funded without anyone expecting anything in return.

Elon Musk, in particular, does not appear to be working on his Mars venture to make money.  He is instead, making money on Earth to fund the Mars venture.

There will be plenty of contractors who will be happy to accept payment for services if funders are willing to drop coin of the realm in their bank accounts.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2019-10-19 08:36:31)

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#115 2019-10-19 16:02:14

SpaceNut
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Re: My Hacienda On Mars

That said elon still owns the ships that go to mars cargo or crewed and has the invested aspects that goes with his recycling of ships in general for his business model to stay cheap. So cargo ships that go and never return pushes up all costs. Mars is not a one way go and stay proposition for elon as he makes money on each unit that is loaded which returns.
The only way to break the loop and make mars profitable for mars is to build there own return export ships. Its the exports that make mars...

As for other why not to work on the topics construct and if that is not what they would want we could share key aspects elsewhere to allow for those that do not want to join to still work on those parts they feel comfortable with on there site as well.

The talk of solar and Nuclear is clearly a divide to assume will be the same in other websites as well but in the end its safety that must win out for crews once on mars as there is no quick way home. Its risk mitigation that must be part of the planning for all aspects of the journey and stay.

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#116 2019-10-19 16:48:58

SpaceNut
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Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Note worthy content for materials processing plant

knightdepaix wrote:

Re Louis#20

louis wrote:

6. Indigenous Mars-based industry,  agriculture and services (e.g. PV panel manufacture, growing food for settlers/visitors and retail services).

First off using indigenous elements such as silicon, oxygen, carbon and hydrogen,

1. Optical fiber is manufactured for providing internet and communication on the planet.
2. Glass fiber, for insulation and else.
3. Fiberscope
4. Plastics
5. Fiberglass
6. Is inorganic nanotubes made of silicon dioxide possible on Mars
7. organic compounds as part of minerals processing.

IanM wrote:

Now that you mention it, I was thinking about oxidizing the Carbon present in Acetic and Propionic Acid into sugar (coupled with the reduction of the sulfates in regolith into elemental sulfur) that would then be fermented into CO2 as a terraformation method. The reactions, and net overall reaction, with Acetic (EDIT:Propionic) Acid would be:

SO4^2-(s) + 4C2H5COOH(l) -> 2C6H12O6(s) + S(s) (Chemosynthesis courtesy of Sulfate-reducing bacteria)
C6H12O6(s) -> 2CO2(g) + 2C2H5OH(l) (Fermentation, courtesy probably of yeast)
SO4^2-(s) + 4C2H5COOH(l) -> 4CO2(g) + 4C2H5OH(l) + S(s) (Overall reaction)

I did some calculations, and assuming that this solution penetrates the regolith 1 cm deep about 9.105*10^11 m^2 or 351,540 sq mi. (half the size of Alaska but twice the size of California) would be needed to create a pressure value of CO2 comparable to Earth (neglecting the polar ice caps full of CO2). However, it would work only as a supplemental terraformation method, since thus treating the entire planetary surface would produce CO2 much less than the Armstrong limit (Even with the polar ice caps).

(This paper describes Sulfate-reducing bacteria that can oxidize Acetate directly into CO2, but the downside is that it reduces sulfate into Hydrogen Sulfide, a harmful byproduct that is among other things responsible for the smell of rotten eggs.)

Perhaps such a system (or at least the first reaction), with acetic acid (or any acetate) and sulfate in the regolith, could in addition be used for the base of your chemosynthetic food chain. Life is essentially a series of redox reactions. The carbon in glucose has an oxidation state of zero, and plants (and cyanobacteria) get it from reducing the Carbon in CO2 (coupled specifically with the oxidation of water into O2), while the sulfate reducers are essentially doing a bit of the opposite, oxidizing the Carbon from Acetate and Propionate into sugars. The carbon source would have to be imported from Earth, but it is inorganic and can thus be used to kickstart the whole process. The main question is whether anybody's ever done a study on the edibility of such chemosynthesizers (as well as their nutrition for such things as fat and protein), which I think somebody should certainly do. Another drawback is that oxygenic photosynthesis is much more energetically rewarding on Earth (which is why it is the predominant form of autotrophy today), although the limited CO2 in the atmosphere and much lower sunlight could change that.

Instead of sulfate, other minerals with abundant oxygen can be used for making glucose. Propanoic acid itself is made from ethene, water and carbon monoxide. Carbon monoxide can be made from the reversed water-gas shift reaction (RWGS). Ethene can be made from oxidative coupling of methane. The by-product water from RWGS and the coupling is reused or electrolyzed to hydrogen and oxygen.

I might have already posted the following previously, but...

For terraforming Mars, fluorine atoms are needed for making fluorocarbons.
So fluorine or hydrogen fluoride waste from industry are turned into silicon tetrafluoride and shipped into LEO. Even fluorine gas or liquid hydrogen fluoride can be shipped if safety can be ensured.
On LEO, fluorides are made out of NEO, asteroids and even collected space garbage. Fluorides are then shipped to Mars.
On Mars, using the separation method in nuclear industry separates fluorides of individual elements. If possible, the fluoride of an element reacts with carbon dioxide to give the oxide and fluorocarbons. In one way or many other, fluorocarbons, oxygen, oxides and raw elements are made. They all have their uses on Mars.
Last but not least, indigenous Mars-based industry can fix hazardous elements into their fluorides and ship them to LEO.

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#117 2019-10-24 19:07:47

SpaceNut
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Re: My Hacienda On Mars

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#118 2019-10-25 05:09:50

tahanson43206
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Posts: 1,220

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

For SpaceNut re #117

Thanks for bringing those earlier discussions back for review.  It is good to see earlier correspondents in the mix.

As a reminder, this topic, kindly created by RobertDyck, has a very specific focus, which I'd like to try to hold as a compass heading.

The intention is to stimulate imagination and discussion of what each contributor would specify for their personal economic estate on Mars, if they had unlimited funds and the ability to bypass regulations on Earth.

It will be necessary to attract new members to the forum, to achieve the stated objective.

Over the course of the life of the topic, I have refined my understanding of the concept a bit, to encompass a virtual community able to live at a comfort level comparable to life in first tier countries on Earth in 2019.  The plot number is derived from discussion of Louis' Sagan City (2018) concept, and the population is assumed to be well above the 2750 plot number, because each Hacienda will have enough people to carry out whatever mission is chosen.

In another topic, RobertDyck reported that Dr. Zubrin has a preference for PhD level leadership in Mars Society activities, and this forum has a greater proportion of such leadership than exists in the population at large.

If the PhD requirement is added to the My Hacienda concept, we'd have 2750 PhD leaders for the specializations of the plots.  That would certainly seem possible, considering the size of the PhD population on Earth in 2019.

(th)

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#119 2019-11-05 17:45:35

SpaceNut
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Posts: 16,493

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

So is there any hints to what you need written to further the plot 0003 for completion as most of any plan is sort of detail with what can be used to get a small mission there to mars.
How about an outline check list for what would make for a complete plot details.

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#120 2019-11-07 17:15:03

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,493

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Response:

tahanson43206 wrote:

For SpaceNut re #375

Thank you for your encouragement to continue working on the MyHacienda concept.

My suspicion is that the success of the project is dependent upon attracting new people to the forum to take on development of individual plots.

I'll keep thinking about how to increase the probability of finding people who would be interested in working the problem.

As a reminder, the problem to be solved is to build a community of a minimum of 2750 people interested in building a virtual community at 2019 levels of capability in a first tier nation.  The principles of Division of Labor and Specialization are combined with Market interactions in the "real world" on Earth in 2019, and the same will (most likely) hold true in the MyHacienca community in Sagan City (2018).  People interested in growing bamboo and making paper for the local market will concentrate on learning how to do that within the constraints of life on Mars (as we understand it today), and they will discover needs for supplies of various kinds, which would then be filled by entrepreneurs in the community who want to concentrate on learning how to do whatever is needed.

As a reminder, MyHacienda is NOT a first settlement ... it is a fully built out community with (hopefully) every specialty on hand to provide a first tier life for the residents.

The skills and knowledge developed by participants in the virtual ** should ** be 100% applicable to life on Earth in 2019, because they would be the ** same ** skills and knowledge, except the ones in MyHacienda would be constrained by the need to live underground.

(th)

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#121 2019-11-07 18:21:14

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,493

Re: My Hacienda On Mars

Took a read through the early posts and found post 19 table of newly register usernames
I then looked to see just how many new users we had gotten, turning the hands of time backwards 20 pages of 50 members on each page some of which have already been banned and most have not posted since registering.

The topics Recorder PlotMaster post 19 is at 31 business opportunities of which some are based on the topics we have here.

These opportunies as individual plots are self sufficient but are looking to sell excess goods to others from those that setup shop on mars..

What is the level of population on each plot as its an important impactor for the growth and level of setup for each plot to be sustainability for the plot and for the support that each can give during the building up to the mars city level.

While a toehold mission might be as low as 1 reflecting on funding costs for the mission, one could hope that its a dozen so as to get a good start but what is that next mission plot to go for as well as the population level to strive for. Also how many will stay from the first may be just as important the planning.

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