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#1 2019-10-04 02:11:37

Terraformer
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From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,210
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Testing My Hacienda on Svalbard Islands

Aside from a brief one operated by Greenpeace, there haven't been any private bases in Antarctica. I wouldn't consider it to be a goal for Devon Island to have only government run research facilities.

As I've said before, I think the Svalbard Islands are a better target, since there's already a market there and it's open to immigration from around the world. We'd have to find a spot that's not a nature reserve, though...


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#2 2019-10-04 05:10:57

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 1,907

Re: Testing My Hacienda on Svalbard Islands

For Terraformer re #99

Thank you for your suggestion of the Svalbard Islands! Would you be willing to contact Norway to find out if they would be interested in sponsoring the project?

I am still hoping that a Canadian citizen will contact the appropriate agency regarding Devon Island.  They may say no, but we won't know until we ask.

I would feel fairly secure against unbridled human nature if Norway were the sponsor, just as I would with Canada.

Svalbard is a Norwegian archipelago between mainland Norway and the North Pole. One of the world’s northernmost inhabited areas, it's known for its rugged, remote terrain of glaciers and frozen tundra sheltering polar bears, Svalbard reindeer and Arctic foxes. The Northern Lights are visible during winter, and summer brings the “midnight sun”—sunlight 24 hours a day.

(th)

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#3 2019-10-04 16:59:40

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,890

Re: Testing My Hacienda on Svalbard Islands

Lets each chip in to build up the knoiwledge base like we did on Devon to see if we can get to the end result of going from initial once figuring out all of the needs to make the first station landing more than a toe hold which seems to be limited if we can not go with nuclear as Louis would want...
That said lets look to whether its anymore plausible for a place to get that to happen...

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#4 2019-10-04 18:02:23

SpaceNut
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Re: Testing My Hacienda on Svalbard Islands

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svalbard

The islands of the group range from 74° to 81° north latitude, and from 10° to 35° east longitude..

The Svalbard Treaty of 1920 recognizes Norwegian sovereignty, and the 1925 Svalbard Act made Svalbard a full part of the Kingdom of Norway. They also established Svalbard as a free economic zone and a demilitarized zone.

All settlements are located on Spitsbergen, except the meteorological outposts on Bjørnøya and Hopen.

Research on Svalbard centers on Longyearbyen and Ny-Ålesund, the most accessible areas in the high Arctic. Longyearbyen is the largest settlement and the administrative centre of Svalbard, a Norwegian archipelago in the Arctic Ocean. Today, Longyearbyen obtains its electric power and district heating from its coal power plant, the only one in Norway.

This plant produces annual emissions of 40 tonnes of CO2 per inhabitant, four times as much as those per mainland inhabitant, even including those generated by the oil industry.

The treaty grants permission for any nation to conduct research on Svalbard, resulting in the Polish Polar Station and the Chinese Arctic Yellow River Station, plus Russian facilities in Barentsburg.

The Svalbard Global Seed Vault is a seedbank to store seeds from as many of the world's crop varieties and their botanical wild relatives as possible. A cooperation between the government of Norway and the Global Crop Diversity Trust, the vault is cut into rock near Longyearbyen, keeping it at a natural −6 °C (21 °F) and refrigerating the seeds to −18 °C (0 °F)

The climate of Svalbard is dominated by its high latitude, with the average summer temperature at 4 to 6 °C (39 to 43 °F) and January averages at −16 to −12 °C (3 to 10 °F)

181104-D-BD104-029.JPG

https://www.dsa.no/filer/9b02076312.pdf
The Radiological Environment of Svalbard

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#5 2019-10-04 20:27:15

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 1,907

Re: Testing My Hacienda on Svalbard Islands

For SpaceNut re #4

Thank you for this helpful summary of the potential of the Svalbard islands for the My Hacienda project.

The treaty grants permission for any nation to conduct research on Svalbard, resulting in the Polish Polar Station and the Chinese Arctic Yellow River Station, plus Russian facilities in Barentsburg.

That passage suggests (to me at least) that there may be a more receptive attitude on the part of the host country than appears to be the case with the Devon Island proposal.

We appear to have a competition unfolding, between Terraformer on the one hand, and whoever may step up for the Canadian initiative on the other.

May the best site reveal itself!

(th)

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#6 2019-10-05 01:57:33

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
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Re: Testing My Hacienda on Svalbard Islands

SpaceNut wrote:

181104-D-BD104-029.JPG

I find this quite interesting. I have posted before that Joseph Stalin in 1927 claimed a wedge of the arctic above the Soviet Union. When he did, Canada responded in kind. In recent years some countries have challenged Canada's claim to the arctic. A few years ago Russia re-stated their claim the wedge of the arctic, using the Lomonsov ridge as justification. They claim that ridge is connected to Siberia, so therefor the waters over the ridge is theirs. Actually, the ridge is connected to Siberia at one end, and the Canadian island of Ellesmere at the other. But Russia still only claims a wedge up to the point of the North Pole; effectively the same as Stalin claimed. This map shows a white bit that Russia no longer claims, waters not over the Lomonsov ridge.

The UN has introduced rules regarding territorial claim. Under those rules the waters of the Northwest Passage could be considered international waters. Canada has claimed those waters are an internal waterway. Canada wanted those waters since Canada became a country in 1867. Canada acquired the arctic islands from the UK in 1880. Canada formally declared the waters between the islands and all waters out to 20 nautical miles off the coast in 1895. So this UN resolution is actually a serious challenge to Canadian territory. Rather than have a hissy fit, Canada worked with the rules. Since Russia claimed arctic waters based on the Lomonsov ridge, Canada claimed waters based on the Alpha ridge. Waters between the islands is claimed based on continental shelf. In 1927 Canada responded to Stalin's claim by claiming a wedge from the Alaska/Yukon border to the point of the North Pole, and the other side as a straight line from the water channel between Ellesmere Island and Greenland to the point of the North Pole. If that isn't recognized, then world does recognize the 200 nautical mile limit. And the Alpha ridge covers not most of the water west of the islands, and more. Although some waters in Beaufort Sea would be lost, we would gain more farther north. This map shows how much is gained.

The map shows the US gains territory as well. Waters north of Alaska, over the Chukchi Plateau.

What's really interesting is how much balls Denmark is showing. I read they want to claim the point of the North Pole. Russia claims a wedge up to the North Pole, on the other side Canada claims a wedge, so Canada and Russia's claims to not conflict, they just form a border at the point of the pole. But then there's Denmark. Greenland is a territory of Denmark, they could claim a wedge north of Greenland as well, but they don't stop there. Denmark wants all of the pole. Russia claims waters based on the Lomonsov ridge, but Denmark wants the same waters, also above the Lomonsov ridge. Denmark wants the waters on the Canadian side of the Pole, and the Russian side, and waters north of Greenland. Uh huh. Can you say "greedy"? I knew you could!

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#7 2019-10-05 03:14:35

Terraformer
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From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,210
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Re: Testing My Hacienda on Svalbard Islands

Economy of Svalbard (Wiki)

The economy of Svalbard is dominated by coal mining, tourism and research.

Like I said in other threads, these are the main ways to make profits in hostile environments. The question is, can we make money in building supporting industries?

A couple of questions that need answering: (1) who owns the land (is it almost all owned by the Norwegian government?), and (2) are there any organisations that would be willing to set up some research facilities for such experimentation (would the Mars society be interested?).

How many groups are there that could be interested? Mars Society, National Space Society etc? Any groups interested in sustainability (if we can make it there we can make it anywhere)?


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#8 2019-10-05 07:07:38

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 1,907

Re: Testing My Hacienda on Svalbard Islands

For SpaceNut re this topic, and the related Canada branch ...

In order for these initiatives to move forward, someone needs to make contact with the appropriate decision makers.  Please begin to think about (and perhaps publish) guidelines for those who will be contacting outside agencies (such as National Governments) on behalf of the NewMars forum of the Mars Society.

I would expect that Dr. Zubrin will be able to provide preferred protocol, since (ultimately) his good name will be reflected in correspondence.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2019-10-05 07:08:07)

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#9 2019-10-05 09:31:21

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,890

Re: Testing My Hacienda on Svalbard Islands

The real question I think is where will the startup money's come for moving forward with either sites build up to resemble what needs to happen for mars science, settlements and businesses.

I find the insitu possibilities for Svalbard's seem to a bit better but that is because of the coal and power plants that would allow for better testing of the fuel creation system. What we still lack is the how to make it possible to test prove out the energy levels to sustain what is the reality of mars. which is a mer 430 w per meter of energy as the base to exist on. The boosting of that level means we must do something beyond the ability of a solar panel foot print as to be able to create an earth like level of power for use.

This is the problem for both locations rather than the science or pyscological stuff which we are already getting plenty of.

We know that PV panels with the 30% efficiency while these are great they still lack the levels that we need to capture as much of the source levels that we can. During the summers on each island we will see life in plants of all types which means that what that level of solar intensity is would be the target value for a mars under a glass dome on the surface with raiation protection for man. Its still not enough as the life support of earth is much large. So what is the life support foot print on earth needed to be created if we did enclose it?

Here is a link for the poor mans creation of Solar power generation using Auto parts to make electricity...since most of us can not afford the amount of them on earth. This might be a way even for mars to adapt such a system.

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