Testing My Hacienda on Svalbard Islands

Terraformer · 2019-10-04 02:11:37

Aside from a brief one operated by Greenpeace, there haven't been any private bases in Antarctica. I wouldn't consider it to be a goal for Devon Island to have only government run research facilities.

As I've said before, I think the Svalbard Islands are a better target, since there's already a market there and it's open to immigration from around the world. We'd have to find a spot that's not a nature reserve, though...

tahanson43206 · 2019-10-04 05:10:57

For Terraformer re #99

Thank you for your suggestion of the Svalbard Islands! Would you be willing to contact Norway to find out if they would be interested in sponsoring the project?

I am still hoping that a Canadian citizen will contact the appropriate agency regarding Devon Island. They may say no, but we won't know until we ask.

I would feel fairly secure against unbridled human nature if Norway were the sponsor, just as I would with Canada.

Svalbard is a Norwegian archipelago between mainland Norway and the North Pole. One of the world’s northernmost inhabited areas, it's known for its rugged, remote terrain of glaciers and frozen tundra sheltering polar bears, Svalbard reindeer and Arctic foxes. The Northern Lights are visible during winter, and summer brings the “midnight sun”—sunlight 24 hours a day.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2019-10-04 16:59:40

Lets each chip in to build up the knoiwledge base like we did on Devon to see if we can get to the end result of going from initial once figuring out all of the needs to make the first station landing more than a toe hold which seems to be limited if we can not go with nuclear as Louis would want...
That said lets look to whether its anymore plausible for a place to get that to happen...

SpaceNut · 2019-10-04 18:02:23

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svalbard

The islands of the group range from 74° to 81° north latitude, and from 10° to 35° east longitude..

The Svalbard Treaty of 1920 recognizes Norwegian sovereignty, and the 1925 Svalbard Act made Svalbard a full part of the Kingdom of Norway. They also established Svalbard as a free economic zone and a demilitarized zone.

All settlements are located on Spitsbergen, except the meteorological outposts on Bjørnøya and Hopen.

Research on Svalbard centers on Longyearbyen and Ny-Ålesund, the most accessible areas in the high Arctic. Longyearbyen is the largest settlement and the administrative centre of Svalbard, a Norwegian archipelago in the Arctic Ocean. Today, Longyearbyen obtains its electric power and district heating from its coal power plant, the only one in Norway.

This plant produces annual emissions of 40 tonnes of CO2 per inhabitant, four times as much as those per mainland inhabitant, even including those generated by the oil industry.

The treaty grants permission for any nation to conduct research on Svalbard, resulting in the Polish Polar Station and the Chinese Arctic Yellow River Station, plus Russian facilities in Barentsburg.

The Svalbard Global Seed Vault is a seedbank to store seeds from as many of the world's crop varieties and their botanical wild relatives as possible. A cooperation between the government of Norway and the Global Crop Diversity Trust, the vault is cut into rock near Longyearbyen, keeping it at a natural −6 °C (21 °F) and refrigerating the seeds to −18 °C (0 °F)

The climate of Svalbard is dominated by its high latitude, with the average summer temperature at 4 to 6 °C (39 to 43 °F) and January averages at −16 to −12 °C (3 to 10 °F)

https://www.dsa.no/filer/9b02076312.pdf
The Radiological Environment of Svalbard

tahanson43206 · 2019-10-04 20:27:15

For SpaceNut re #4

Thank you for this helpful summary of the potential of the Svalbard islands for the My Hacienda project.

The treaty grants permission for any nation to conduct research on Svalbard, resulting in the Polish Polar Station and the Chinese Arctic Yellow River Station, plus Russian facilities in Barentsburg.

That passage suggests (to me at least) that there may be a more receptive attitude on the part of the host country than appears to be the case with the Devon Island proposal.

We appear to have a competition unfolding, between Terraformer on the one hand, and whoever may step up for the Canadian initiative on the other.

May the best site reveal itself!

(th)

RobertDyck · 2019-10-05 01:57:33

SpaceNut wrote:

I find this quite interesting. I have posted before that Joseph Stalin in 1927 claimed a wedge of the arctic above the Soviet Union. When he did, Canada responded in kind. In recent years some countries have challenged Canada's claim to the arctic. A few years ago Russia re-stated their claim the wedge of the arctic, using the Lomonsov ridge as justification. They claim that ridge is connected to Siberia, so therefor the waters over the ridge is theirs. Actually, the ridge is connected to Siberia at one end, and the Canadian island of Ellesmere at the other. But Russia still only claims a wedge up to the point of the North Pole; effectively the same as Stalin claimed. This map shows a white bit that Russia no longer claims, waters not over the Lomonsov ridge.

The UN has introduced rules regarding territorial claim. Under those rules the waters of the Northwest Passage could be considered international waters. Canada has claimed those waters are an internal waterway. Canada wanted those waters since Canada became a country in 1867. Canada acquired the arctic islands from the UK in 1880. Canada formally declared the waters between the islands and all waters out to 20 nautical miles off the coast in 1895. So this UN resolution is actually a serious challenge to Canadian territory. Rather than have a hissy fit, Canada worked with the rules. Since Russia claimed arctic waters based on the Lomonsov ridge, Canada claimed waters based on the Alpha ridge. Waters between the islands is claimed based on continental shelf. In 1927 Canada responded to Stalin's claim by claiming a wedge from the Alaska/Yukon border to the point of the North Pole, and the other side as a straight line from the water channel between Ellesmere Island and Greenland to the point of the North Pole. If that isn't recognized, then world does recognize the 200 nautical mile limit. And the Alpha ridge covers not most of the water west of the islands, and more. Although some waters in Beaufort Sea would be lost, we would gain more farther north. This map shows how much is gained.

The map shows the US gains territory as well. Waters north of Alaska, over the Chukchi Plateau.

What's really interesting is how much balls Denmark is showing. I read they want to claim the point of the North Pole. Russia claims a wedge up to the North Pole, on the other side Canada claims a wedge, so Canada and Russia's claims to not conflict, they just form a border at the point of the pole. But then there's Denmark. Greenland is a territory of Denmark, they could claim a wedge north of Greenland as well, but they don't stop there. Denmark wants all of the pole. Russia claims waters based on the Lomonsov ridge, but Denmark wants the same waters, also above the Lomonsov ridge. Denmark wants the waters on the Canadian side of the Pole, and the Russian side, and waters north of Greenland. Uh huh. Can you say "greedy"? I knew you could!

Terraformer · 2019-10-05 03:14:35

Economy of Svalbard (Wiki)

The economy of Svalbard is dominated by coal mining, tourism and research.

Like I said in other threads, these are the main ways to make profits in hostile environments. The question is, can we make money in building supporting industries?

A couple of questions that need answering: (1) who owns the land (is it almost all owned by the Norwegian government?), and (2) are there any organisations that would be willing to set up some research facilities for such experimentation (would the Mars society be interested?).

How many groups are there that could be interested? Mars Society, National Space Society etc? Any groups interested in sustainability (if we can make it there we can make it anywhere)?

tahanson43206 · 2019-10-05 07:07:38

For SpaceNut re this topic, and the related Canada branch ...

In order for these initiatives to move forward, someone needs to make contact with the appropriate decision makers. Please begin to think about (and perhaps publish) guidelines for those who will be contacting outside agencies (such as National Governments) on behalf of the NewMars forum of the Mars Society.

I would expect that Dr. Zubrin will be able to provide preferred protocol, since (ultimately) his good name will be reflected in correspondence.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2019-10-05 07:08:07)

SpaceNut · 2019-10-05 09:31:21

The real question I think is where will the startup money's come for moving forward with either sites build up to resemble what needs to happen for mars science, settlements and businesses.

I find the insitu possibilities for Svalbard's seem to a bit better but that is because of the coal and power plants that would allow for better testing of the fuel creation system. What we still lack is the how to make it possible to test prove out the energy levels to sustain what is the reality of mars. which is a mer 430 w per meter of energy as the base to exist on. The boosting of that level means we must do something beyond the ability of a solar panel foot print as to be able to create an earth like level of power for use.

This is the problem for both locations rather than the science or pyscological stuff which we are already getting plenty of.

We know that PV panels with the 30% efficiency while these are great they still lack the levels that we need to capture as much of the source levels that we can. During the summers on each island we will see life in plants of all types which means that what that level of solar intensity is would be the target value for a mars under a glass dome on the surface with raiation protection for man. Its still not enough as the life support of earth is much large. So what is the life support foot print on earth needed to be created if we did enclose it?

Here is a link for the poor mans creation of Solar power generation using Auto parts to make electricity...since most of us can not afford the amount of them on earth. This might be a way even for mars to adapt such a system.

SpaceNut · 2021-12-28 22:05:21

th?id=ABTAACC69211495389C15BB74E223AA2AC9E320C532970511B2CA68D05A1E796664&w=608&h=200&c=2&rs=1&o=6&pid=SANGAM

Kjell Henriksen Observatory
While these domes look like they should be in a movie set depicting a galaxy far, far away, they're actually part of a scientific research station here on planet Earth. Kjell Henriksen Observatory is named for a Norwegian scientist whose research focused on the polar lights. The aurora borealis is frequently seen here, deep within the Arctic Circle in Norway's remote Svalbard territory. And the observatory is specially designed to observe the aurora. Since it opened in 2008, the observatory has become a destination for atmospheric scientists, who can rent one of these 30 glass-topped rooms built to house high-end optical instruments.

http://kho.unis.no/

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-08-08 09:03:27

Norway, it was a place with Soviet Russians or once it was Swedish...it was once had lots of money put into the site, a miner town and the pride of the Soviet Union.

Already testing?

'Bakgrunn: Prøvekjører Mars på Svalbard
Hver sommer tester AMASE utstyr og forskning som skal til Mars på Svalbard. Det hele begynte med et forskningsskip og en merkelig meteoritt. '

https://forskning.no/bakgrunn-partner-r … ard/692312

onsdag 25. juli 2012 Wednesday 25th of July '12

Pyramiden an abandoned Russian mining town on Svalbard.
https://www.unusualtraveler.com/visit-p … -svalbard/

On the top of the world is where Svalbard is located, an archipelago situated between Norway and the North Pole is where Pyramiden is located a place that the world forgot for nearly a decade, a Russian mining town established by Sweden in 1910 but then sold to the Soviet Union in 1927 and then completely abounded in 1998 after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Bears stalk former Soviet Svalbard mining outpost
https://www.thelocal.no/20150805/bears- … g-outpost/
A man in a chapka hat and black coat, rifle slung over a shoulder, idles on the pontoon as a group of tourists sail in to visit Arctic oddity, Pyramiden, a Soviet-era ghost town.

“The Svalbard is Norwegian but had a special status enabling other people to live or work there,” tour guide Kristin Jaeger-Wexsahl tells the group of several dozen who sailed from the Norwegian town of Longyearbyen, some 50 kilometres (30 miles) away.

But as they step off to visit the former coal centre named after a pyramid-shaped mountain in the background, Sasha takes over.

Why is he armed? In case of polar bears, until recently the town's only inhabitants, he tells the group. “We haven't seen one since May but you never know,” says the 33-year-old.

The Soviets bought the then-small coalmine in 1927 from Swedes, says the guardian whose hammer-and-sickle engraved chapka smacks of the now defunct Communist-era USSR.

“The first settlers came in 1936 but were evacuated by British forces at the beginning of the Second World War … so mining really began in earnest in 1956,” in the Cold War years when Nikita Khrushchev ran the Soviet empire, he added.

The rails used by the funicular to ferry miners up to the entrance on the mountain face, and by trailers to haul the coal down, are still visible, while the wharf remains littered with ageing piles of bricks, gravel and rusted metal parts.
Sasha, working his fourth season here hundreds of kilometres north of the Arctic Circle, says the residents thrived in the 70s and 80s before the USSR began to unravel.

Pyramiden, Svalbard: The northernmost ghost town from Soviet Era
https://realcamplife.com/en/pyramiden-svalbard/

The Changing Nature of Russia’s Arctic Presence: A Case Study of Pyramiden
https://www.thearcticinstitute.org/chan … pyramiden/
In recent decades, Norway has started introducing greater environmental regulations and put more than half of the archipelago’s territory under environmental protection, a move that was highly unpopular with the Russians, who interpreted the legislation as a covert attempt to push them out of the region. Around the same time, the global reliance on coal increasingly diminished, causing the mines to run further deficits. This has continued to push both countries to reevaluate their economic activities on Svalbard.

Nonetheless, both country’s interests on the archipelago appear to be motivated by insecurity, and the fear that if one party leaves, they will lose a valuable foothold in a region that may become pertinent in the future. These issues once again point to the precarious arrangement of the Svalbard Treaty, and relations between the Russians and Norwegians on Svalbard. Nearly 100 years since the Treaty’s implementation, the situation on Svalbard is characterized by a time of change and insecurity, mirroring Russia’s Arctic affairs, and the Arctic as a whole. It remains to be seen what will happen to this unique and remarkable arrangement, and how it will change and affect foreign affairs in the region going forward.

Ghost Town
https://darktourists.com/a-tour-to-pyra … -svalbard/

Pyramiden is accessible by boat or snowmobile from Longyearbyen, either as part of a guided tour or independently. There is also the Pyramiden Heliport. There are no restrictions on visiting Pyramiden, but visitors are not allowed to enter any buildings without permission even if they are open. While most buildings are now locked, breaking into the buildings, vandalism and theft of artifacts have become a serious threat to Pyramiden as it contributes to the accelerating deterioration of the buildings

Pyramiden was founded by Sweden in 1910 and sold to the Soviet Union in 1927. It lies at the foot of the Billefjorden on the island of Spitsbergen and is named after the pyramid-shaped mountain with the same name adjacent to the town. The nearest settlements are Svalbard's capital, Longyearbyen, some 50 kilometres (31 mi) to the south, Barentsburg approximately 100 kilometres (62 mi) southwest and the small research community of Ny-Ålesund, 100 kilometres (62 mi) to the west. In Soviet times, the population was mostly Ukrainian, consisting of miners from Donbass and staff from Volyn.

In 1996, a charter flight for Arktikugol crashed on the approach to Svalbard Airport with the loss of 141 lives.
https://www.webcitation.org/67ZQsA3d4?u … tFile-File

Jan Mayen ( is a Norwegian volcanic island in the Arctic Ocean with no permanent population. It is 55 km (34 mi) long (southwest-northeast) and 373 km2 (144 sq mi) in area, partly covered by glaciers (an area of 114.2 km2 (44.1 sq mi) around the Beerenberg volcano). It has two parts: larger northeast Nord-Jan and smaller Sør-Jan, linked by a 2.5 km (1.6 mi) wide isthmus. It lies 600 km (370 mi) northeast of Iceland (495 km [305 mi] NE of Kolbeinsey), 500 km (310 mi) east of central Greenland, and 1,000 km (620 mi) west of the North Cape, Norway. The island is mountainous, the highest summit being the Beerenberg volcano in the north. The isthmus is the location of the two largest lakes of the island, Sørlaguna (South Lagoon) and Nordlaguna (North Lagoon). A third lake is called Ullerenglaguna (Ullereng Lagoon). Jan Mayen was formed by the Jan Mayen hotspot.

A regulation dating from 2010 renders the island a nature reserve under Norwegian jurisdiction.
https://lovdata.no/dokument/SF/forskrif … 11-19-1456
The aim of this regulation is to ensure the preservation of a pristine Arctic island and the marine life nearby, including the ocean floor.

Jan Mayen has a hyperoceanic polar climate with a Köppen classification of ET. The Gulf Stream's powerful influence makes seasonal temperature variations extremely small considering the latitude of the island, with ranges from around 6 °C (43 °F) in August to −4 °C (25 °F) in March, but also makes the island extremely cloudy with little sunshine even during the continuous polar day. The deep snow cover prevents any permafrost from developing. As a result of warming, the 1991-2020 temperature normal shows a mean annual temperature 1.9 °C (3.4 °F) warmer than during 1961-1990, pushing the annual temperature above freezing

https://web.archive.org/web/20210128080 … ema=PORTAL

https://meteostat.net/en/station/01001/climate

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-08-08 09:33:28)

SpaceNut · 2022-08-08 19:48:44

There is so much history in that post and I googled the mountain range that is under water and saw that it divides the globe water circulation pattern.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-09-23 11:24:30

Summer 2022 was warmest on record for Svalbard
https://www.rcinet.ca/eye-on-the-arctic … -svalbard/

USAF CV-22 Osprey Stranded For A Month In Norway After Emergency Landing In Nature Reserve
https://theaviationist.com/2022/09/15/u … e-reserve/

Coal phaseout reaches remote Arctic archipelago
https://www.politico.eu/article/coal-ph … rd-norway/
Longyearbyen's former coal mine

Pyramiden: a Soviet ghost town on a Norwegian island in the Arctic Ocean
https://www.outono.net/elentir/2022/09/ … tic-ocean/

The simulated Mars outpost Haughton-Mars Project (HMP) base camp has come up in forum discussion a few times before.

A month on 'Mars': The Arctic comes alive
https://www.space.com/month-on-mars-arctic-alive

For someone who has pored over images of Mars for years, it was quite easy to believe you were on that planet.

if Mars was warmed a little would imported plant life grow better?

Down in the South Pole

Flourishing plants show warming Antarctica undergoing ‘major change’
https://www.theguardian.com/environment … change-aoe
,
https://www.newscientist.com/article/23 … g-climate/

vegetation on the Antarctic coast throughout the summer, consists of mosses, lichens and the only other plant species, the Antarctic pearlwort, clusters of the Antarctic hair grass

South Pole hair grass 'Deschampsia Antarctica' can tolerate to very cold and dry conditions.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-10-20 05:23:26

Svalbard Islands might be off limits soon?

Norway the largest supplier of natural gas to Europe

'Norwegian Police detains son of close Putin ally for flying drone at Svalbard'

https://thebarentsobserver.com/en/secur … e-svalbard

This is the fourth time in a week that police made an arrest

SpaceNut · 2023-12-20 11:16:39

Seem methane is something we can get here as Sea of methane sealed beneath Arctic permafrost could trigger climate feedback loop if it escapes
Collect it and stop it in its tracks.

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#1 2019-10-04 02:11:37

Testing My Hacienda on Svalbard Islands

#2 2019-10-04 05:10:57

Re: Testing My Hacienda on Svalbard Islands

#3 2019-10-04 16:59:40

Re: Testing My Hacienda on Svalbard Islands

#4 2019-10-04 18:02:23

Re: Testing My Hacienda on Svalbard Islands

#5 2019-10-04 20:27:15

Re: Testing My Hacienda on Svalbard Islands

#6 2019-10-05 01:57:33

Re: Testing My Hacienda on Svalbard Islands

#7 2019-10-05 03:14:35

Re: Testing My Hacienda on Svalbard Islands

#8 2019-10-05 07:07:38

Re: Testing My Hacienda on Svalbard Islands

#9 2019-10-05 09:31:21

Re: Testing My Hacienda on Svalbard Islands

#10 2021-12-28 22:05:21

Re: Testing My Hacienda on Svalbard Islands

#11 2022-08-08 09:03:27

Re: Testing My Hacienda on Svalbard Islands

#12 2022-08-08 19:48:44

Re: Testing My Hacienda on Svalbard Islands

#13 2022-09-23 11:24:30

Re: Testing My Hacienda on Svalbard Islands

#14 2022-10-20 05:23:26

Re: Testing My Hacienda on Svalbard Islands

#15 2023-12-20 11:16:39

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