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#2801 Re: Life on Mars » What if the Event Never Happened? - And Mars is still a blue planet! » 2003-11-14 16:23:40
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For Cobra Commander, exclusively.
"Weltraumschiff 1 startet!"
Enjoy!
[URL=http://www.astronautix.com/articles/theorers.htm]http://www.astronautix.com/articles/theorers.htm[/URL[/quote:post_uid0]
Interesting. It reminds of an article I read several years back on the subject of why most of the pre-shuttle American rockets were painted in that black-and-white checkered pattern. Basicly the Americans did it that way because the captured German engineers painted experimental Nazi rockets that way. [i:post_uid0]They[/i:post_uid0] did so because the ship in the film "[i:post_uid0]Frau Im Monde[/i:post_uid0]" was painted that way and the Germans just felt that rockets [i:post_uid0]should[/i:post_uid0] look like that.[/color:post_uid0]
#2802 Re: Not So Free Chat » What if we lose? - Vietnam II? » 2003-11-13 19:51:28
The following comment is not directed at everyone here, but you know who you are. It occurs to me that if I were a third-world dictator flouting international law I would be truly blessed to have enemies such you. Just hold out for a few months, cause some disturbances and you'll just go away.
For the low price of one kill a day you too can drive a superpower from your lands and re-establish a brutal dictatorship.
I'm not trying to make light of the loss of even one American life nor am I trying to offend the good sensibilities of anyone on this forum. I strongly believe that going into Iraq was right, and I understand that not everyone agrees and can even at times sympathize with some of their objections. But none of that really matters now.
For all the complaining on US policy in Iraq there are very few ideas on how to improve it, particularly from the politicians voicing the loudest objections. Regardless of whether one supported the action or not, we're there now and must finish the job. Pulling out is not an option.
The bitter assaults on the war coupled with the lack of alternative ideas forces one to the conclusion that those leveling the complaints are primarily interested not in saving American lives but in removing George Bush. Yes, that's right, I am saying on the record that some people, primarily on the left, are using the Iraq war as a way to get themselves back in power. When one of the Democrat Party's nine Mondales offers a constructive suggestion on how to improve the situation I will reassess that statement, but I don't anticipate the need. This is not Bush's war and it is not a Republican war. Like it or not, this is America's war and if we falter more Americans will be killed here, and the terrorists will not make a distinction between Bush-backers and anti-war peaceniks. If America succeeds we will all be made safer, if America fails we will all be in greater danger. I know some people will smugly say "I told you so" as another building collapses around us in flames, but I hope we're better than that.
#2803 Re: Life on Mars » What if the Event Never Happened? - And Mars is still a blue planet! » 2003-11-11 19:32:43
The prospect of a whole planet ripe for colonization without all that whining about killing the savages that live there! Oh, how generous the gods can be! And considerate too.
I'd say there's no question this would have radically advanced spaceflight development. Mars by 1900? No, I suppose not. But Mars by 1940 seems reasonable, given that the basics of rocketry needed to get there were known and just in search of funding to develop further.
Perhaps a three-way space race? The United States, Soviet Union and Nazi Germany? There's a certain symmetry to it, three concepts of human society, each irreconcilable with the others, competing to seize a new world and make it in their image. Despite my own American bias, if that were the case I'd have to put my money on Fritz. Not an endorsement, just a realistic assessment given our own history.
So, what kind of world would we live in then?
For starters, people that talked about Nazi Mars bases wouldn't be laughed out of the room, but we'd also probably have a tenser world. Excuse me, worlds. Anyone that thinks Germany would pass on developing all that Martian lebensraum is sorely mistaken. The Russians and Americans would have to develop their own colonies, not that they wouldn't anyway. The initial settlements would probably be uneven, talk of a "Mars Gap" would spur a colonization race. All three powers trying to build bigger and bigger rockets to get more people to the new planet.
Project Orion would suddenly have some traction, and would probably be copied by the other two powers. Within a few decades fleets of atomic spacecraft would be zipping across the void of space to Mars. The fallout would be manageable as long as the launch sites were carefully chosen and nuclear weapons testing was limited. Hardly a major issue, all three sides would have the capacity to destroy the worlds ten times over, the real fight is to out-colonize the rivals.
The frontier quickly closes, all of Mars falling under control of one of the three powers. Travel between the German, American and Russian sectors is tightly controlled. Man lives in the new Eden under the Sword of Damocles, but hopes for a better future.
The more things change...
I'd like to see someone try to goose-step on Mars, could be quite amusing.
#2804 Re: Not So Free Chat » What if we lose? - Vietnam II? » 2003-11-11 18:06:52
Dubya has not prepared the country to accept the considerable sacrifice that lies ahead if we are to win Round #2 of the Battle for Iraq. The more radical neo-cons are already complaining that Bush is making promises he can't/won't fulfill.
We are engaged in war against stateless terrorists. It is a war that will in a very real sense determine whether the past few centuries of the expnsion of freedom will continue or become a historical anomaly. Either we change them or they will most certianly change us in a very negative sense. This war will entail the invasion and occupation of a few more countries if we are to succeed. The sooner the American people come to grips with the task at hand the better. Dubya hasn't fully prepared the country, but we've never been truly prepared for any of the great accomplishments throughout our history. There will be setbacks, but we'll accomplish something worthwhile.
#2805 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Crime and Punishment - Speculation » 2003-11-11 17:26:07
For the foreseeable future, Mars will remain an inhospitable place. to keep a single human alive will require significant amounts energy in many forms, from the food they eat to the power that keeps them from freezing to the effort required to build the habitat in the first place.
Does it make economic sense to keep an entire dome fully supplied simply to house criminals? Depends on the crime I suppose. But then what is the purpose of imprisonment? To keep the offender away from the general population so that they cannot commit another crime. Death does this more effectively and cheaper, too. Of course we can't go around spacing every pickpocket and vandal, so what are we to do?
Why not simply alter the scale of punishment from what is familiar? Punishments more fitting of the crime may be in order, rather than the universal answer of prison. Thiefs must make restitution in excess of what was stolen, for example. Still other "crimes" could simply be ignored. Drug use for example, it can't possibly be more of a drain on society than sending the offender to prison, and as long as they don't cause a distruption where's the harm? Sure, to them but if the actions of every citizen are suddenly my responsibiliy then I'm even more in favor of the death penalty, keeps the taxes low. ???
No prison for lesser crimes, half the problem solved. Now we have murders, rapists and the like. I have no problem with killing these people. Blow 'em out the airlock if you want. Or be creative, I really don't care as long they die and suffer some in the process.
Of course we then must be certain not to convict the innocent. It is likely that every corner of a Martian colony will be under surveillance of some sort. I may not like the idea, but it makes catching criminals easier. Still, we will be setting precedent and a something more will be required, and defining it will take time. If we can reliably determine guilt or innocence, I see no reason not to have the death penalty on Mars or elsewhere. I don't like killing anything, but with the preceding conditions met there is simply no rational objection.
#2806 Re: Not So Free Chat » Lest We Forget - Rememberance Sunday + 11-11-11 1918 » 2003-11-11 16:08:07
To the brave men of all nations who fought with honor in the trenches, I salute you.
To the leaders of Europe: What the hell were thinking?
To Arch Duke Ferdinand's driver: Check the map next time!
Remember the fallen, and the folly.
#2807 Re: Not So Free Chat » Free Speech ZONE? » 2003-11-08 14:37:02
CC: "They are loud, confrontational, disrespectful of any opinion but their own, and utterly unwilling to acknowledge the possibilty that they may be wrong or that the other side has a right to make their case without interruption."
*I'm sure some protesters are this way. Many probably are. But not ALL are, ALL the time, at EVERY occurrence -- ?
Certainly not, but if you see ten leftist loonies scream and rant at a protest, when numberr 11 comes along you're justified in suspecting similar behavior. Actually I think removing this guy with the placard was a safe move, imagine if he'd actually caused a disturbance and had to be forcibly removed. We'd be seeing that tape for weeks.
*Depends on what you'd be shouting about, and what he might have said to provoke that reaction in you. At the very least, wait until he's done, stand up and say you have an objection.
I agree, unfortunately not everyone has the courtesy to wait and respond in a rational and dignified manner.
*Well, becoming physically aggressive, physically combative, violent, and threatening bodily harm to others IS where I'd draw the line. Your right to protest stops when you attempt to deprive me of my right to be heard, to intimidate me or attempt to physically harm me if I don't "back down." But the man in the story wasn't doing this.
Some of these protestors do become combative, which I find amusing from a bunch of people at a peace rally, but no one ever said they weren't hypocrites. If the man in the story wasn't being disruptive, good for him, I can actually respect his opinion. Was removing a non-violent protestor right? Probably not. Is it the first time a politician has done it? No. Can I understand why they'd do it? yes. Does that make a President a threat to the fundamental liberties of the American people? No.
Just for comparison, back in '92 I went to a Clinton/Gore rally. Yes, I confess, I couldn't pass on the invitation. There was a group of anti-abortion protestors there, peacefully holding signs. They were not allowed beyond a certain point. I didn't think it was big deal.
Oh, and great quotes Cindy, both sides need to pay them more heed.
#2808 Re: Civilization and Culture » Let's talk economics - are economic "laws" really immutable? » 2003-11-08 14:03:34
What would you have, though, a whole lot of rich people, or a lot of rich people but a lot of poor people which the rich depend on?
If everyone is rich, then is anyone rich?
While on the simple rhetoric thing 
#2809 Re: Human missions » Howard Dean on manned Mars Effort » 2003-11-08 13:59:38
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First off, welcome [b:post_uid0]jmknapp[/b:post_uid0] to the fray.
The meeting minutes state that Eisenhower was "firmly of the opinion that the rule of reason had to be applied to these Space projects—that we couldn't pour unlimited funds into these costly projects where there was nothing of early value to the Nation's security. . . . [i:post_uid0]n the present situation, the President mused, he would rather have a good Redstone than be able to hit the moon, for we didn't have any enemies on the moon!"
[/quote:post_uid0]This attitude is not without justification, but even being the case military developments have from the beginning paved the way for space exploration. American and Soviet ICBM designs were straight-off the launch vehicles of the first space missions, both nations having relied heavily on German designs. That "good Redstone" made a moon shot conceivable. But if we really want to play the game of tracing this back to its early roots to see who gets the credit for the space program, then thank you Mr. Hitler. Military needs drive the technology which in turn makes exploration possible.
Would a man have ever been sent to the moon with the military running the show? Doubtful![/quote:post_uid0]
I've heard of plans the military had to set up a missile base on the moon, kind of the ultimate deterence. The Russkis can turn all of North America to hot glass and we can [i]still[/i:post_uid0] nuke 'em back! So if that were carried through the military would not only have gone to the moon but stayed, leaving us with alot of infrastructure up there, not to mention familiarity with the idea that people [i:post_uid0]work[/i:post_uid0] up there, on the moon just like anywhere on Earth. Overall a better outcome I'd say. Thank you Mr. Johnson.
What's needed is an effort annpunced where adventure and exploration are the ultimate criteria (as JFK did).
[/quote:post_uid0]JFK may have announced the Apollo pragram as adventure and exploration but it gained support and funding [i:post_uid0]solely[/i:post_uid0] as a way to upsatge the Russians and put America back on top in the space race. I would argue that Apollo was only funding to completion because Kennedy was assassinated, martyring him and giving life to the program that otherwise wouldn't have endured long enough to finish. If Apollo is going to be our model for Mars, then what's the point?
It's axiomatic that there will be no commercial exploitation of Mars for a long time. What possible business model exists even on paper? IMAX films? In lieu of that, it must be a government funded effort as practically all exploration to extreme environments has been in history.[/quote:post_uid0]
Government must fund it initially, but (as with other historical models) if private business can't find a way to make money from the frontier fairly quickly it won't amount to anything.[/color:post_uid0]
#2810 Re: Not So Free Chat » Free Speech ZONE? » 2003-11-08 09:57:41
Spider-Man is essentially correct, these protesters are neither civil nor dignified for the most part. I've been on the ground with them, stirring the pot. They are loud, confrontational, disrespectful of any opinion but their own, and utterly unwilling to acknowledge the possibilty that they may be wrong or that the other side has a right to make their case without interruption.
Censoring protest and keeping protestors at a distance are very different things. For example, if I have an issue with Dr. Zubrin I can state my case. But is there anyone here who would not think me a complete a$$hole if I stood up at the opening plenary of the next Mars Society conference and starting shouting at him in the most disrespectful manner? Would anyone object as the cops dragged me out, kicking and screaming, spewing venom and curses at all who dare to disagree?
Protest is a good thing, but it has its place. Does anyone think the President should degrade himself and the office by responding to every heckler that calls him a oil-sucking tyrant? Next thing they'll be upset they can't have an anti-war rally on the White House lawn.
#2811 Re: Not So Free Chat » What if we lose? - Vietnam II? » 2003-11-08 09:42:47
Just think how peaceful things would be in a world like that...
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
Thomas JeffersonTrue today as it was then. I'll take the constant fight for freedom over boring utopia any day.
Besides Byron, your invincible fighter jet destroying oppressors is essentially what we did in Iraq.
See, childhood dreams really can come true.
#2812 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » An Example of Settlement Governance - The City Council of the City of Euthenia » 2003-11-07 22:29:21
I could have swore I posted a reply to this earlier today... Maybe the demons got it.
The government structure you describe seems like it would work about as well as what is common in local government around the US, functional but not exceptional. The system is less important than the people within it.
I looked over the city layout. It strikes me as too logical. Perhaps something less uniform and orderly would be better, defined more by the landscape and the whims of the colonists than by functional geometric arrangements. It seems like it would be too artificial, like living inside a giant grey office building.
Which reminds me, in the interest of morale, I propose that we NEVER introduce those damn flourescent lights to Mars! That sickly green glow and the endless flickering is one headache the Martians won't need
#2813 Re: Civilization and Culture » Let's talk economics - are economic "laws" really immutable? » 2003-11-07 22:16:40
Gennaro, what you're thinking of is panarchy, I believe. The idea that people can chose any relationship they want. All anarchists are panarchists, but not all panarchists are anarchists (because some panarchists would wish, perhaps Cobra, to impose themselves upon others).
Can freedom be imposed? Can one choose to be a slave? Can anarchy exist if some choose to form hierarchies, thus in a sense inflicting that hierarchy on others, even if indirectly? Would not anarchy require that all live as anarchists, thus imposing it upon others?
It seems so simple until someone wants out. Hell is other people.
#2814 Re: Human missions » Howard Dean on manned Mars Effort » 2003-11-07 22:02:59
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Also, why does everyone associate a lack of Space spending with Democrats. If I remember correctly, whoe was in the White house during Gemini and Apollo? And who was in the white house when Apollo was shut down. Just a reminder.[/quote:post_uid0]
First, the space program started under Eisenhower and continued largely as a competition, a sort of [i:post_uid0]proxy war[/i:post_uid0] with the Soviets. Also worth mentioning is that the Democrats of that period were very different from today's jackasses. Both parties have tended to slide to the left, today's Republicans aren't really all that different from the Democrats of the early Cold War period, while today's Democrats have absorbed and been influenced by the lunatic-left that used to be discounted out of hand.For example, JFK cut taxes, sent American military advisors to prop up foreign forces, called for a massively expensive space program, increased deployment of nuclear weapons in foreign nations despite the tensions it caused, and stared down a foreign aggressor encroaching on our sphere of influence. Who would do that now?[/color:post_uid0]
#2815 Re: Human missions » Howard Dean on manned Mars Effort » 2003-11-07 15:18:45
Hmm, a number of things strike me here. Josh, the self-proclaimed anarchist, supporting a candidate from the party of big government ??? interesting.
Cindy, you mean to say you've already decided to vote for the Democrat even without knowing who the candidate will be? That doesn't sound very reasonable to me. So much could happen before the election, some loon could get the Democratic nomination. Oh, right, redundant
But really, who thinks Dean has a chance of winning the election? If so, who believes he'll actually fight for the Mars mission? We need healthcare, welfare, money for education blah blah blah; not some grandiose program to send a man to Mars, that's the attitude I usually get from Democrat politicians. The space program is usually one of the first things they cut! If, by some fluke, Dean is elected I think you'll be disappointed.
Besides, what's this buzz about Bush maybe announcing a Mars plan for NASA? Maybe this time it will actually happen, without a Democratic Congress to muck with it. Who was it that called for that not so long ago? Ah, yes. Bush 41.
Sorry to go ranting from the Right on you, but it was needed in here
#2816 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » A Flag to Unite Terrans for Mars - Golden Ratio and Human Color Vision » 2003-11-07 14:07:23
To be perfectly honest, I've never liked that flag. Not that I have anything against the symbolism behind it, I just think it's ugly. Bad color combination.
#2817 Re: Civilization and Culture » Let's talk economics - are economic "laws" really immutable? » 2003-11-05 19:04:53
Go away for a few days and look what happens...
Here's an idea I've been kicking around for awhile that has relevance here. A social structure that might just be plausible for a brief, fleeting moment in the history of a technological civilization. Laid out for examiniation and ridicule, the bones...
For a brief period in the early stages of AI capable of completely replacing human labor the equipment will be expensive. Shortly the cost will plummet as the machines take over their own manufacturing, but for a time human labor will be required to build them, keeping costs high.
A suitably visionary and authoritarian government offers incentives to businesses to make the expense of acquiring these new machines. Of course the business owners will know full well that prices will soon plummet, but for the good of the social order we'll bully them a little.
With mechanized labor a reality, these businesses will be off the hook for payroll, medical insurance, social security, workers comp. etc. Well, not so fast. Our benevolent government with only our best interests at heart (I'm being quite serious in this example) levies a tax equal to 75% of the total expenses of having human workers. Unfair perhaps, but a bargain nall the same.
The result is a massive pool of tax money. If a sales tax is in place there is no need to siphon money off this pile, what with all those multi-millionaires spending their new riches on cheap robot-made goods. This could be used to one-up every social program ever conceived. A single and universal Citizen Stipend.
Every adult citizen of our hypothetical nation recieves a payment from the government simply for existing on our soil. It will be a sufficient amount to provide for food, clothing, modest living arrangements and other necessities. If an individual is unable to work for whatever reason, they're taken care of. If someone is just lazy, fine, they need never lift a finger. But there's a catch. You don't let them vote. They have no stake in the society, they don't get a voice. What's more, you don't let them reproduce. If they can't exert themselves for their own benefit what makes anyone think they'll do so for another? Children don't get Citizen Stipend, we're just looking out for them, proactively.
Quite possibly within a generation the lazy bums could be simply removed from society peacefully, crime-free and without angst on the part of liberals searching for something to feel guilty about. We have given everyone the opportunity to better themselves and they did nothing, what more can we do? Sure, there will always be a few who leech off the generosity of this system, but in time their numbers would become so low, whether by shame or filtering of the gene pool, as to be insignificant. those who seek meaning in their lives can find it freely without fear of losing their jobs, and hence their livelihood. Everyone will have a job they enjoy, no one will have to pick up the garbage or mop shit for a living. All is well with the world.
Of course there are problems, but I'll leave you to it. ???
#2818 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Nations or World Government on Mars - Nations or World Government? » 2003-11-01 13:15:52
Yeah, that's why the county that I live in (Broward) is spending millions to dump the electronic voting pads for an optical scanner system, which is much cheaper and leaves a paper trail. Why they didn't think of this in the first place is beyond me...
B
We've had the same optical scanner system in the three Michigan counties I've lived in for the past ten years or so and never had a problem with them. I had actually just assumed that everyone did it that way until the 2000 fiasco.
#2819 Re: Intelligent Alien Life » Extraterrestrials... - The nature of ET » 2003-11-01 10:37:51
Who of any of the present population "knows how to build and program a laptop?" Miniaturization isn't absolutely vital. The principles behind them are obvious, and capable of being expressed even mechanically.
The principles are only obvious if you have a frame of reference. The Assyrians wouldn't. Perhaps we would for alien technologies, perhaps not. We just don't know.
Spacecraft can be copied, and then utilized intelligently in common with "aliens" faced with the same challanges, which is my point.
Alright, here's a scenario. We have an alien spacecraft. We are attempting to copy the propulsion system. We have cataloged all the parts and their design, but not their functions. We know what the engine does but not quite how. We think we can copy it, but some components are composed of an alloy we have no clue how to manufacture. Our steel copies fused in tests. We can attempt to use alternative arrangements but since we don't really know what those parts do we can't come up with alternatives, aside from blind experimenting. This is the type of scenario we are like to have should we ever try to reverse-engineer an alien spacecraft.
Put another way, imagine the finest aircraft engineers of Kaiser Wilhelm's Germany trying to copy a B-2. They'll understand the concept, but where to start? They'll probably even try to copy the shape, despite the fact it it was intended primarily to reduce returns by radar, which doesn't even exist.
Only obvious with the right frame of reference.
#2820 Re: Civilization and Culture » Critical mass - Population » 2003-11-01 10:01:43
As just a hypothetical number, I suggest 500 colonists would be required for the colony to be self-sustaining.
It's as good a guess as any.
#2821 Re: Civilization and Culture » Critical mass - Population » 2003-10-31 16:37:25
I would think it would depend greatly on the level of technology of the colonists. It could conceivably be as few as one.
But there is also the question of what one defines as a colony. I would suggest that a viable breeding pool would be a minimum requirement, but again those numbers are debatable.
The only thing I can say with certainty is that I'd like to keep lawyers off the planet as long as possible.
#2822 Re: Not So Free Chat » Good books you've just read » 2003-10-31 16:21:21
"Project Orion: The True Story of the Atomic Spaceship." by George Dyson (son of Freeman Dyson)
I recommend it to anyone interested in the Orion program.
#2823 Re: Not So Free Chat » What if we lose? - Vietnam II? » 2003-10-30 20:02:24
I firmly believe that history will judge Dubya favorably over Iraq. Despite strong disagreements with some of Bush's policies, in Iraq we have achieved a tremendous victory for human rights and established a foothold for freedom and the rule of law in a part of the world awash in hate and terror. Casualties are unfortunate, but if we've grown so soft we can't stomach them then we've already lost, the American dream is over.
#2824 Re: Life on Mars » If Perceival Lowell Had Been Right - Whether to help dying Mars civilization » 2003-10-30 19:44:36
I would promise i help them, in exchange for their technology and knowledge about Mars. Then i'll nuke them to the skies, and start colonizing Mars.
That would be in keeping with historical precedent. At least nuking them all at once is better than gradually subverting their culture and exterminating their race. "No, we won't colonize beyond this point, we promise. No, we really mean it this time."
But I'd much rather keep them around, just make sure that Terra is the dominant partner. We did save them after all, they owe us
Mars for the Terrans!
Again, a bit of jest here of course.
#2825 Re: Intelligent Alien Life » Extraterrestrials... - The nature of ET » 2003-10-30 18:12:02
[
The Assyrians must have been just as "smart" as we are, because 3,000 plus years isn't much time to advance "smarts."
Ah, but intelligence and knowledge are often confused. If we gave a laptop computer to the Assyrians we may be able to show them how to use it but they would never come close to figuring out how to build one themselves. I believe that was Shaun's point, we can't copy technology until we have a sufficient understanding of the principles of its operation.
Not that I'm going to start speaking for you, Shaun