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#1 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference! » 2004-03-31 02:41:56

Apparently, NASA says that the [http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/2M1336 … 1.JPG.html]MI images with the dark bloody enamel is just part of the rind of the rock that hasnt been RATed away yet....

Why does the 'dark rind' appear utterly homogeneous? ie no sign of any surface weathering textures as seen on other rocks e.g. Adirondack.

It looks 'waxy' like a very thin layer of ashphalt. From the outer appearance of the rock we could be grinding into a sedimentary exactly at right angles to the bedding planes

[http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/2M1339 … 1.JPG.html]latest microphotos as of this post

#2 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference! » 2004-03-30 03:49:16

Having had experience with microscopic digital imaging, this picture is disturbing.  I hope that someone just forgot to focus correctly but is looks like something is SERIOUSLY FUBARed.  Hopefully, it's just something mechanical stuck the can fix through cycling of the mechanisms.  If it's a problem with the CCD or image amplifier, it's basically toast.

looks like its pointing at the sun... and thats part of the robot arm in shot.  Why?..No idea... maybe just a mistake

#3 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference! » 2004-03-29 16:01:38

It looks more like a solid polish layer to the rock than a liquid (all smooth and shiny, with chips broken off, think [http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/2M1336 … 1.JPG.html]Obsidian).

...or the results of a leak, maybe the RAT drooled as it bit into the New York steak, and the rock flour has mixed to form a polishing paste, polishing the specimen, but also hopelessly gumming up the RAT? (ugh, i shouldnt have thought that... oh now i did it, its all my fault, undesired subliminal telekinesis sucks... sad )

I always thought they would have some type of oil or another wheel to polish the rock surface to get better definition contrast of the grain structure, but they would have surely used it by now, maybe that was too impractical or was made obsolete by the spectrometer abilities?

or.... look near the top of the image, [http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/2M1336 … 1.JPG.html]the little black hole at the top is really an "oil hole" that is leaking now that the RAT has drilled and opened the seal, spilling the Martain "black oil" and releasing deadly martian spores that had lain dormant for eons. proving that this rock is another eroded peice of ancient machinery like Hoagland was ranting about back in January!

Very weird...my take... on the right is the flat ground surface produced by the RAT...on the left the ground surface has flaked away to reveal a totally homogenous 'bedding plane' with gentle ripples, of what looks like a dark smooth waxy substance... who knows...hydrocarbon?

whatever ...very odd looking

#4 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference! » 2004-03-27 05:14:00

METHANE ON MARS, people! Wake up!

ok... im awake..just..

so we've got methanogen micro-organisms of some sort, or Mars isn't totally volcanicly dead - any other options?

whatever it is, it has to be a current and active process - any methane in the atmosphere would be broken down fairly rapidly by the high UV flux.

are there any hotspots in the infrared band seen in the global surveyor imagery? vents where hot gasses containing methane might be escaping?

....and an article in New Scientist this week. In the last 'few weeks' NASA has agreed to provide development funds for a proposal to include a miniaturised Polymerase Chain Reaction machine in the next rover mission, 2009. The 'micro-lab' will look for one of the 500 'universal genes' found in all life on earth, which encodes for a molecule known as '16S ribosomal RNA'. Specifically it will look for a short highly conserved sequence within the gene which is, as far as we know, invariant in all life on Earth.  Full page article, p19, issue of 27th March.

The proposal has been put forward By Gary Ruvkun, at the department of genetics at Massachussets General hospital ( the author of the article) in conjunction with a group of scientists at MIT, and engineers at MJ research - manufacturers of automated lab equipment.

#5 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here » 2004-03-23 13:38:51

Okay, anyone care to guess what *this* is about..?

<< NASA ANNOUNCES MAJOR MARS ROVER FINDING
<snip>
Look at the list of panellists...  a sedimentologist?

Thoughts anyone..?  smile

Hmm...

wild guess...bedding structure = underwater deposition, and not just water percolating thru rocks at some time.

wink

looks like I wasnt imagining crossbedding after all

#6 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here » 2004-03-22 17:40:31

Okay, anyone care to guess what *this* is about..?

<< NASA ANNOUNCES MAJOR MARS ROVER FINDING
<snip>

Look at the list of panellists...  a sedimentologist?

Thoughts anyone..?  smile

Hmm...

wild guess...bedding structure = underwater deposition, and not just water percolating thru rocks at some time.

hope they also have something to say about the 'interesting' soil properties, on which theyve been remarkably quiet

knowing me, you can call me  a fule tomorrow wink

#7 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here » 2004-03-21 19:03:58

It would be a very silly thing to do...

Granted.On the other hand, it has happened before.  IIRC, the lunar ALSEPs were shut down before their use-by date was reached to try to save money. (And didn't the same thing happen to the Viking landers?)
=====
Stephen

having spent hundreds of millions so far, I can't  believe that they won't run them into the ground.

The martian environment is not that well understood. The telemetry data recording exactly how the machinery degrades and fails will provide useful info for the design of equipment for future long term missions. If immobilisation occurs because of a drive motor failure,  the mini-tes could still be sending back useful weather info long after a lander has ground to a halt. Eventually, I suppose, dust storms will cover the solar cells to an extent that the computer does not have enough power to continue operating.

I (hope!) expect they will just progressively whittle down the staff to a skeleton crew

#8 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here » 2004-03-18 04:19:55

Spirit is really showing Opportunity up here! smile

It's not a race.The aim is to do the maximum ammount of science, not cover the greatest distance.


[http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994790]Blueberries = Hematite

and heres what looks like a nice little rock with a hematite layer on its top surface - blue grey and shiny

[http://www.keithlaney.com/OCI/R32.jpg]http://www.keithlaney.com/OCI/R32.jpg

#9 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here » 2004-03-08 18:11:01

past the mid-point mark


more than half way there?

oo er...

Its starting to look steep already. see latest pancam

#10 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here » 2004-03-03 05:02:11

well... the news conference was pretty much a one trick pony, and merely served to confirm what most  people have been thinking for some time (given the huge number of features seen from orbit and neutron emmision data) that Mars in the past had quantities of water..

What I found interesting was what was not discussed -  the nature of the soil and the results from the trench digging - obviously a lot of 'discussion' still going on behind closed doors on that one. I noticed that when one female journalist tried to steer towards present day surface water, all panellists who answered tried to back off from the question... started talking about 'deep down ice'. I think the guys at JPL must still be puzzling over the 'flow structures, 'platiness' and light coloured 'crust' of  [http://www.keithlaney.com/OCI/R9.jpg]this as much as I am... though they have the advantage of the (currently) sekrit spectrometry readings.  :hm:

#11 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here » 2004-03-02 12:39:27

is there a soho in new york? honestly, i did not really know that (european ignoramus that i am!) for me soho=london...

(an to b on the safe side, i didn't use *any* capitals in this sentence!) big_smile

he he ...yes... and theres me thinking you must be a Yank

yup. SoHo = South of Houston, part of lower Manhattan

top left on [http://www.insurance-y2k.com/nycsg/1map.gif]this map

#12 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here » 2004-03-02 11:09:42

Thanks for that link SoHoBoy!

Not SoHoBoy - SohoBoy

London, not New York

wink

#13 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here » 2004-03-02 10:54:40

.
One thiing's for certain: these spheres are 'harder' than the surrounding rocks... And not a little bit, judging from their numbers, they look virtually indestructable... No or very little weathering...

They do weather, just a lot slower than the rock matrix. there are some heavily weathered examples on the floor of the crater - obviously the rock they weathered out of is long gone....

checkout this stereo pair

[http://www.hazyhills.com/mars3d/opportu … 0212b.html]http://www.hazyhills.com/mars3d/opportu … 0212b.html

not an anaglyph, so you need to be able to cross  your eyes and get the image back into focus. lock into the vertical line between the left and center images then cross your eyes. NB this image is panable. controls lurking at bottom of window

also a link to NASAs anaglyph from which this was derived if you can't manage the funny face thang...

nb
dont do this in public or people will think you've gone nuts!

#14 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here » 2004-03-02 10:43:52

any idea why the holes don't fill up with dust?

well the little cavities are in a face which is more vertical than horizontal. I'm sure there is a small drift of dust in there. Just that the small swirls of wind which do penetrate the hole probably lift out as much as they deposit.

#15 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here » 2004-03-02 09:35:43

I hope when the mission is over (as in no more data coming back) that NASA will compile all of the images onto CD or DVD, it'll take me ages to download them all on my internet connection speed!

If you are on a modem and  on a fixed monthly fee, a good ploy is to obtain some software which can download a specified section of a website automatically - you specify the start page, and the limits as to what is to be downloaded - otherwise the software follows all links and attempts to download the entire internet! Effectively the program is a simple spider as used by the web search sites

Set the software going when you go to bed and in the morning the section of the website in which you are interested will be sitting on your HD. On the Mac there is a program called "Web Devil" (shareware) which works fine for me. I'm sure similar exists for the PC.

the limitation is that "Web Devil" only works with straight HTML web pages. It does not interpret javascript, and also falls over with actively served content, so i think it would work with [http://www.lyle.org][http://www.lyle.org]www.lyle.org, but not with NASA

#16 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here » 2004-03-02 07:39:52

I like the last half of Rob Mannings sentence "intense disccusions over the last several days." I think we should have had a poll as to what the announcement was going to be. But its a bit late now :;):

scientists love to talk, and argue over the interpretation of data. That's what scientists do. If they have something big there's no way they could prevent it from leaking. Somebody on the inside would have mentioned something in an email to a friend eventually - "in strictest confidence", of course. Then it would have been all over the internet within a few days

what are thet going to announce? My guess. That the soil is 'moist' under a thin semipermeable/impermeable surface salt crust as seen in [http://www.copperas.com/astro/otrenchtrue.jpg]this colour image of the trench dug by Opportunity. My interpretation of that is that any moisture under the surface rapidly boils off when exposed, leaving behind a layer of nice white fluffy salt crystals, which I thought I saw in one of the microphotos of the trench prior to finding the colour  image. Gil Levin seems to think it's ice. frost on the surface doesnt hang about long once the sun gets up - as per Viking imagery - so I'm a bit dubious about that one. Also the image linked above looks like it was taken in the middle of the Martian day - the whole trench is illuminated and the shadows very short . So temperatures are probably a few degrees C above zero?

Basically I'm not sure. The fine salt crystal theory might also be related to the 'fluffy' appearance of a lot of the small stuff lying on the surface in the crater, seen in the microphotos and which does not look like solid rock.

And/or a preliminary assessment of the probable origins of the rock outcrop and spheres. Also involving water.

And hopefully something about the fine 'black threads' I've been seeing everywhere in the soil microphotos, and which seem to be associated with its 'interesting' physical properties and microstructures - clumps, tubes, troughs, plates, ribbons, spiral and starfish shapes, made of dust particles which appear 'bound' by the threads. Apart from pointing out what is probably a (much larger and light coloured) thread off one of the airbags lying on the surface, to date NASA doesnt seem to have mentioned this topic at all.

OK. you can all call me 'idiot' tomorrow

ok whats for lunch...fusilli and pesto..mmm

Fusilli.jpg

#17 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here » 2004-03-02 05:55:26

[http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/2M1314 … 1.JPG.html]These holes (well seven of them) look recent. It may be my eyes - its early and i've been studying too hard this morning - but the holes don't seem to fit in with the natural depressions that cover the rest of the image.

They're just eroded out vesicles - gas bubbles formed when the rock was liquid. Commonly seen in basalts. You can see one in the microphotos taken of Adirondack rock by Spirit. Extreme vesiculation gives a 'vesicular basalt' as seen by Pathfinder - "Barnacle Bill' rock

[http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgge … ition%3Duk]Basalt

#18 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here » 2004-03-01 16:13:18

Hi-res trucolour composite of Opportunity trench. overhead shot using L2, L3, L4, L5, L6, L7.
Originally posted by jmknapp at mer.rlproject.com

[http://www.copperas.com/astro/otrenchtrue.jpg]Opportunity trench overhead in colour

Heads up for UK marsfreaks - "Significant Findings" to be announced at Press Conference, [http://www.nasa.gov/ntv]on NASA TV  Tuesday 2nd, 7pm UK time

BBC is announcing that its about evidence of 'past water on Mars'. OK NASA tell us something we didn't already know. Doh!

Anyway, bound to be interesting to see the evidence and their reasoning

#20 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here » 2004-03-01 11:21:52

One thing in the article that bothers me... The 'Viking guy' (Disclaimer: I am terribly bad with names, i DO respect him, just forgot his name...)

Gil Levin. The guy who designed the labelled gas release life detection experiment on Viking.

[http://www.keithlaney.com/OCI/R9.jpg]Ice? - hmmm... go figure... I think he might have been looking at a B/W and letting his imagination run away a bit...well I dont know..something's making the tracks in the bottom of the trench look really light. Maybe this is a salt crust? Moisture in the soil vapourising and leaving salts behind. Would this be fairly fast process in 10Mb atmosphere? And how long after the trench was dug was the photo taken ?

#21 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here » 2004-03-01 10:03:52

Don't want to sound all ALIAS here, but is anyone else out there getting the twitchy-itchy feeling that the JPL guys are being so quiet because they're building up to a Big Announcement of some kind?

I don 't know, maybe it's me, but it just feels very trickle-down, drip-feedy science at the moment. The "news" and comments all seems to be about page 3 or 4 little things like the sizes of pebbles, how cool it is the rovers have spotted discarded pieces of themselves, how gorgeous the martian sunset is... Day after day we see page after page of pictures of that BL**DY sundial   and the tiny sun, and no-one seems to be commenting on the fascinating and intriguing details seen in the pictures of the trenches dug by the rovers' wheels... And suddenly, even tho we're now drooling over pics of features out in the World Beyond The Crater there seems to be no rush to get Opportunity out of its crater, even when you can almost hear the rover itself screaming LET ME OUT!!!!!

I can quite understand the desire to make the most of Opportunities interplanetary geological 'hole-in-one' before pushing off for pastures new.

We all hope that the Rovers last for 90+ days, but on Mars theres no haul to the repair shop if anything malfunctions, so the best attitude has to be 'a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush'. Saying that, I'm still puzzled by the fact that no serious investigation of Sushi and Sashimi was attempted. To me both looked prime candidates for a closer look and 'ratting', and were most conveniently placed. The excuse that they were 'too dusty' is obvious nonsense. That Spirit then malfunctioned (fortunately only a file management problem) had me cussing somewhat. If they had not managed to salvage that situation I'm sure others would have been asking "Why no investigation of Sushi and Sashimi when you had the chance?"

Now Opportunity is faced by a long hard (but fortunately rock free) drive to the next area of interest. Many days of same ol' same ol'. Fingers crossed that it makes it  to the big crater. I can understand the desire to wring the current location dry. Fingers crossed for Spirit too, which appears to be facing ever rougher going the further it progresses.

As for "trickle-down drip-feedy" - thats exactly how it feels to me. We get the pretty pictures and the ooh ahh sunset, but wheres the beef? for example the spectrometer readings from inside the trenches? And so far no commentary on any of the 'interesting' features e.g. the nature of the soil, including the 'duracrust' and the soils fascinating microstrusture - including the fine dark threads I'm seeing everywhere, which appear to be involved in forming these micostructures. [http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/1M1312 … 1.JPG.html]Here's one thread - which is easy to spot as its sitting out in the open. from the ratted sphere, track diagonally down and to the left. Its sitting an a shallow light coloured depression which the Rat hasnt quite reached, close to the edge of the ratted area. There are a couple of shorter sections of 'thread' in the same depression....

And what is the rock in Opportunities crater - an ultra fine grain sedimentary? Whats the chemistry? Spectrometer results please. I expect we'll have to make up a new geological category for it - Duststone.

Its obviously not a basalt as it looks [http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery]quite different to [http://www.keithlaney.com/SCI/V4.jpg]Adirondack when ratted.

#22 Re: Not So Free Chat » Appropriate Topics: On War and Politics » 2004-03-01 05:26:56

or all that lead.....

they were exposed to so much in their wine and water systems they effectively sent the ruling classes insane, and as such could not effectively govern their empire.

I wonder what equivalent insidious consumption item (like lead piping) caused other civilization extinctions--and for that matter, will cause ours to go under? I mean, besides not escaping from Earth on time, naturally.

hmm... [http://www.holisticmed.com/aspartame/]Aspartame? and maybe the long term synergystic effects of the low concentration 'soup' of several thousand artificial compounds, that  people in industrialised countries are subject to every day of otheir lives.

A giant long term experiment which may already be producing results in the form on ever increasing cancer rates (relative to the poorer non-industrialised countries), and other maladies such as Attention Deficit Disorder.

Alternatively... Fox News and Ronald McDonald

#23 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads » 2004-03-01 02:57:57

Wowza again... That's *a lot* of white stuff on the rim... Same stuff as in the 'home crater? Same stuff they unearthed while doing the dig?

[http://www.keithlaney.com/OCI/R8.jpg]http://www.keithlaney.com/OCI/R8.jpg

A nice nice colour composite of the large ridge on the horizon from Keith Laney

[http://www.keithlaney.com/opportunity_color_images.htm]Keiths colour composites of the trench dug by Opportunity are also  worth having a look at. Click thumbnails at bottom of page for hires versions

Remcook:

..and what is this then? wink

[http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery....M1.HTML

]http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery....M1.HTML

the retrorocket back section and parachute of the lander. It was in the news a while ago when it was first spotted. There are also a couple of small very bright patches on the ground in the same general direction, which I'm guessing are bits of the airbags outer 'sacrificial' layer. or {more likely as the ground is flat and rock free) other bits of the entire lander assembly which detached en route to the ground.

#24 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads » 2004-02-28 12:15:12

The global dust storms seem capable of 'filling up' bootprinths, IMHO.

go with that... just making a point about erosion rates...the bootprint might fill up with dust, but its not going to dissapear in a hurry, as one on Earth would. My guess is that it would just sit there as a little anomalous dust filled trough for a very long time

#25 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads » 2004-02-28 06:13:28

About the first bootprints... Mars is not the Moon... Maybe the first one on Mars has to do a 'Bootprint' and then cover it with something to preserve it from the elements...

I doubt that the lander sites will look much different a few hundred years. Erosional rates on Mars must be exceedingly slow. No rain, which contributes most to erosion on Earth, and the atmosphere is only 10Mb as opposed to 1000Mb on Earth. - only the very finest dust is lifted into the Martian atmosphere , compared to the sand which blasts rocks in the arid regions on Earth - all the Landers will need a few hundred years down the line  is a bit of dust off - very carefully! as I guess all exposed plastic/resin parts will be extremely brittle from UV flux by then.

[http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/2M1311 … 1.JPG.html]Crust and 'fuzz bunnies'

an excellent view of the salt/dust crust (?) produced by a Mossbauer print. A section of the crust appears to have fortuitously stuck to the Mossbauer, and been lifted out of shot

And we also see a couple very obvious examples of the 'fuzz bunnies' we've been seeing on the surface  - which look like small irregular balls of cotton wool/lint - in the Spirit and and Opportunity soil microphotos.

My favourite 'fuzz bunny' is the one in the [http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA05213]Mystery soil animation which folds in half (with it's right side dissapearing!), when the crust heaves up and then opens up underneath it.

The 'mystery spheres' look to me to be :

a) light & shiny
b) dark and shiny
c) light and fuzzy

according to location

are the fuzz bunnies a fine accumulation of salt crystals/filaments? Surprised nobody has mentioned these so far, or the fine black filaments seen in many of the soil photos which appear to give the soil its interesting 'structure' - tubes, plates, ribbons, troughs and 'starfish' forms - into which the ultra fine dust is bound together by the threads.

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