Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

chaosman · 2004-03-02 02:43:45

Question:

Does anybody know if it would be possilbe to find water (actual water/ice) hints by comparing the individula PANCAM filter images ?

Is anything on board of the Rovers (MINITES?) that could detect actual water/ice on/under the surface directly ?

cassioli · 2004-03-02 03:08:18

CRAZY FORUM
I found it again! The "Mars for mads" forum :band:
[http://anomalyhunters.com/cgi-bin/marsb … _config.pl]http://anomalyhunters.com/cgi-bin/marsb … _config.pl

It is hosted into "mars for mads" site:
[http://anomalyhunters.com/]http://anomalyhunters.com/

Please be careful when reading that site/forum: people writing there is completely out of mind!!! :laugh:

Please note:
"Mars for mads" is how I call the site... it's actual name is "Anomaly Hunters": get ready to find on Mars animals, footprints, faces, artifacts and anything you couldn't ever imagine you could find on Mars!!!

Enjoy it!! :laugh: (And then come back here and let's talk seriously about Mars...)

Luca

chaosman · 2004-03-02 04:23:17

"Last Change" obsevation to come up at Opportunity

Interesting name, isn't it ?

[http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/rover-i … age-3.html]http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004....-3.html

atomoid · 2004-03-02 04:35:19

LEFT CAMERA RIGHT CAMERA
7 = 432nm (32nm Short-pass) 1 = 436nm (37nm Short-pass)
So it makes sense that an L4 image would look quite different than a R4 one.

i guess that makes a lot of sense, so that every image taken with each of the pancams gives unique spectral data, wouldnt want to waste banwidth on any duplicate data so they spread the whole spectrum across the image passes in hope of highest contrast (resolution) per spectral sample...

unfortunately, the L0, R0, and L1 images of this sequence were not released (or even aquired?)... wonder why?

the L7,R1 pair that have that 5 nm disparity in the "short-pass"... (?)

The #2 filters should be a good stereo pair too?
L2 = 753nm (20nm bandpass) R2 = 754nm (20nm bandpass)

Shaun Barrett · 2004-03-02 05:49:55

Hi Graeme!
Thanks for the picture of the holes.

I see your point; some of the holes do look 'fresher' than others and one of them looks like it was drilled today!
I've been wracking what's left of my brain for weeks to come up with an explanation for those little spherules. The only terrestrial analogue I can come up with (and no I don't read a whole lot into this and neither should anyone else) is those little balls of wet sand you find near crab burrows on the beach.
So maybe we're looking at fossilised sand balls expelled by extinct martian crabs from their underground burrows long ago, when Meridiani was the floor of a shallow ocean.
Yeah, yeah ... I know! You're right. Maybe I should get out more, meet some people and get back in touch with reality!
:laugh:

Then again, Graeme, it looks like you just discovered the crab burrows ... !!!

SohoBoy · 2004-03-02 05:55:26

[http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/2M1314 … 1.JPG.html]These holes (well seven of them) look recent. It may be my eyes - its early and i've been studying too hard this morning - but the holes don't seem to fit in with the natural depressions that cover the rest of the image.

They're just eroded out vesicles - gas bubbles formed when the rock was liquid. Commonly seen in basalts. You can see one in the microphotos taken of Adirondack rock by Spirit. Extreme vesiculation gives a 'vesicular basalt' as seen by Pathfinder - "Barnacle Bill' rock

[http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgge … ition%3Duk]Basalt

GraemeSkinner · 2004-03-02 06:15:48

They're just eroded out vesicles - gas bubbles formed when the rock was liquid. Commonly seen in basalts. You can see one in the microphotos taken of Adirondack rock by Spirit. Extreme vesiculation gives a 'vesicular basalt' as seen by Pathfinder - "Barnacle Bill' rock
[http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgge … ition%3Duk]Basalt

Its a while since I studied geology (and that was not in any depth - field trips looking at rain soaked rocks through bleary eyes, and lab sessions that resulted in me having more fun with the equipment than looking at the samples), any idea why the holes don't fill up with dust?

GraemeSkinner · 2004-03-02 07:11:41

Rob Manning, a mission manager, said a week ago that he couldn't comment on the science team's speculation about the findings but that there was "probably as much enthusiasm as we've ever had by the science team and a lot of intense discussions over these last several days."

I like the last half of Rob Mannings sentence "intense disccusions over the last several days." I think we should have had a poll as to what the announcement was going to be. But its a bit late now :;):
Have been looking at newspaper websites from around the world on and off this morning and they all have virtually the same report - NASA are certainly keeping a lid on it, was the announcement brought forward to today from next week, if so is it to stop any leaks before they can do the 'big announcement'?

SohoBoy · 2004-03-02 07:39:52

I like the last half of Rob Mannings sentence "intense disccusions over the last several days." I think we should have had a poll as to what the announcement was going to be. But its a bit late now :;):

scientists love to talk, and argue over the interpretation of data. That's what scientists do. If they have something big there's no way they could prevent it from leaking. Somebody on the inside would have mentioned something in an email to a friend eventually - "in strictest confidence", of course. Then it would have been all over the internet within a few days

what are thet going to announce? My guess. That the soil is 'moist' under a thin semipermeable/impermeable surface salt crust as seen in [http://www.copperas.com/astro/otrenchtrue.jpg]this colour image of the trench dug by Opportunity. My interpretation of that is that any moisture under the surface rapidly boils off when exposed, leaving behind a layer of nice white fluffy salt crystals, which I thought I saw in one of the microphotos of the trench prior to finding the colour image. Gil Levin seems to think it's ice. frost on the surface doesnt hang about long once the sun gets up - as per Viking imagery - so I'm a bit dubious about that one. Also the image linked above looks like it was taken in the middle of the Martian day - the whole trench is illuminated and the shadows very short . So temperatures are probably a few degrees C above zero?

Basically I'm not sure. The fine salt crystal theory might also be related to the 'fluffy' appearance of a lot of the small stuff lying on the surface in the crater, seen in the microphotos and which does not look like solid rock.

And/or a preliminary assessment of the probable origins of the rock outcrop and spheres. Also involving water.

And hopefully something about the fine 'black threads' I've been seeing everywhere in the soil microphotos, and which seem to be associated with its 'interesting' physical properties and microstructures - clumps, tubes, troughs, plates, ribbons, spiral and starfish shapes, made of dust particles which appear 'bound' by the threads. Apart from pointing out what is probably a (much larger and light coloured) thread off one of the airbags lying on the surface, to date NASA doesnt seem to have mentioned this topic at all.

OK. you can all call me 'idiot' tomorrow

ok whats for lunch...fusilli and pesto..mmm

GraemeSkinner · 2004-03-02 08:38:38

what are thet going to announce? My guess. That the soil is 'moist' under a thin semipermeable/impermeable surface salt crust as seen in [http://www.copperas.com/astro/otrenchtrue.jpg]this colour image of the trench dug by Opportunity. My interpretation of that is that any moisture under the surface rapidly boils off when exposed, leaving behind a layer of nice white fluffy salt crystals, which I thought I saw in one of the microphotos of the trench prior to finding the colour image. Gil Levin seems to think it's ice. frost on the surface doesnt hang about long once the sun gets up - as per Viking imagery - so I'm a bit dubious about that one. Basically I'm not sure. The fine salt crystal theory might also be related to the 'fluffy' appearance of a lot of the small stuff lying on the surface in the crater, seen in the microphotos and which does not look like solid rock.

I hope the pasta was good
The image of the trench dug by Opportunity has me almost agreeing with you on this, its probably wishful thinking on my part but the right hand side of the trench in this image, on the 'dug' side has almost a water trickle shadow effect on it. I know there will be a hundred and one explanations for these shadows, but just for a while I'll believe its water marks (not water itself).
When I say almost agreeing, thats only because I need to look at them again, and again, and again.....

I hope when the mission is over (as in no more data coming back) that NASA will compile all of the images onto CD or DVD, it'll take me ages to download them all on my internet connection speed!

Lars_J · 2004-03-02 09:29:14

Don't get your hopes up about any annoucement today - Anything truly significant (like liquid water or life) would have leaked out by now...

SohoBoy · 2004-03-02 09:35:43

I hope when the mission is over (as in no more data coming back) that NASA will compile all of the images onto CD or DVD, it'll take me ages to download them all on my internet connection speed!

If you are on a modem and on a fixed monthly fee, a good ploy is to obtain some software which can download a specified section of a website automatically - you specify the start page, and the limits as to what is to be downloaded - otherwise the software follows all links and attempts to download the entire internet! Effectively the program is a simple spider as used by the web search sites

Set the software going when you go to bed and in the morning the section of the website in which you are interested will be sitting on your HD. On the Mac there is a program called "Web Devil" (shareware) which works fine for me. I'm sure similar exists for the PC.

the limitation is that "Web Devil" only works with straight HTML web pages. It does not interpret javascript, and also falls over with actively served content, so i think it would work with [http://www.lyle.org][http://www.lyle.org]www.lyle.org, but not with NASA

chaosman · 2004-03-02 10:01:29

Look at new Opportunity Pancam image:

[http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … 36L6M1.JPG]http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery....6M1.JPG

Middle-Left you can see:

A Martian Marble sitting on a "Stem".
It's VERY clear by the shadow the thing is casting.

WOW !

Rxke · 2004-03-02 10:42:20

neat! it really *is* sitting on a 'stalk'
Not that this makes it organic per se, but still a great find...
One thiing's for certain: these spheres are 'harder' than the surrounding rocks... And not a little bit, judging from their numbers, they look virtually indestructable... No or very little weathering...

SohoBoy · 2004-03-02 10:43:52

any idea why the holes don't fill up with dust?

well the little cavities are in a face which is more vertical than horizontal. I'm sure there is a small drift of dust in there. Just that the small swirls of wind which do penetrate the hole probably lift out as much as they deposit.

GraemeSkinner · 2004-03-02 10:45:50

Look at new Opportunity Pancam image:
[http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … 36L6M1.JPG]http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery....6M1.JPG
Middle-Left you can see:
A Martian Marble sitting on a "Stem".
It's VERY clear by the shadow the thing is casting.
WOW !

The image could have a second ball and stem if you look at the outcrop of rock above the obvious ball/stem two balls look like they are eroding from the rock, on 'appears' to be on a shorter stem - though it could just be the shadow effect on that one.

SohoBoy · 2004-03-02 10:54:40

.
One thiing's for certain: these spheres are 'harder' than the surrounding rocks... And not a little bit, judging from their numbers, they look virtually indestructable... No or very little weathering...

They do weather, just a lot slower than the rock matrix. there are some heavily weathered examples on the floor of the crater - obviously the rock they weathered out of is long gone....

checkout this stereo pair

[http://www.hazyhills.com/mars3d/opportu … 0212b.html]http://www.hazyhills.com/mars3d/opportu … 0212b.html

not an anaglyph, so you need to be able to cross your eyes and get the image back into focus. lock into the vertical line between the left and center images then cross your eyes. NB this image is panable. controls lurking at bottom of window

also a link to NASAs anaglyph from which this was derived if you can't manage the funny face thang...

nb
dont do this in public or people will think you've gone nuts!

Rxke · 2004-03-02 11:00:43

Thanks for that link SoHoBoy! You can't imagine how grateful i am...

Those are the best pics i've seen so far... by far!

SohoBoy · 2004-03-02 11:09:42

Thanks for that link SoHoBoy!

Not SoHoBoy - SohoBoy

London, not New York

chaosman · 2004-03-02 11:13:23

They do weather, just a lot slower than the rock matrix. there are some heavily weathered examples on the floor of the crater - obviously the rock they weathered out of is long gone....

Well O.K. But why didn't the stems weather as fast as the outcrop, too, if they are made up by the same outcrop material as the stones ? Expecially in this case (It's a really long stem)

Stu · 2004-03-02 11:13:48

For a killer 3D pic of one of the trenches - a nice warm-up act for tonight's announcement (whatever it is!) - treat yourselves to a click here...

[http://www.marsunearthed.com/Opportunit … y29_3D.htm]http://www.marsunearthed.com/Opportu...._3D.htm

You'll think you're standing over it, honestly The level of detail visible in the material which has crumbled away from the sides is absolutely stunning...

Rxke · 2004-03-02 11:21:33

is there a soho in new york? honestly, i did not really know that (european ignoramus that i am!) for me soho=london...

(an to b on the safe side, i didn't use *any* capitals in this sentence!)

SohoBoy · 2004-03-02 12:39:27

is there a soho in new york? honestly, i did not really know that (european ignoramus that i am!) for me soho=london...
(an to b on the safe side, i didn't use *any* capitals in this sentence!)

he he ...yes... and theres me thinking you must be a Yank

yup. SoHo = South of Houston, part of lower Manhattan

top left on [http://www.insurance-y2k.com/nycsg/1map.gif]this map

remcook · 2004-03-02 12:50:06

any minute now...

GraemeSkinner · 2004-03-02 13:02:23

Liquid water that once drenched the surface sounds good to me.

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