Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

cassioli · 2004-03-23 12:52:06

Ok, let's start. I think the conference is going on right now. Waiting for the Evening News on TV... (Not web TV, just TV )

Luca

GraemeSkinner · 2004-03-23 13:09:12

From the NASA web site

Earth might not be the only planet in our solar system to have hosted salty seas. NASA's Opportunity has uncovered evidence that the rocks near its landing site on Mars not only were once wet, but likely formed at the bottom of a body of gently flowing saltwater

It does get better and better each time.

Palomar · 2004-03-23 13:14:43

[http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/o … 40323.html]space.com -- salty sea!

*Damn, it took a while to download this article.

--Cindy

GraemeSkinner · 2004-03-23 13:21:28

[http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/o … 40323.html]space.com -- salty sea!
*Damn, it took a while to download this article.

Good report though, so it was worth the wait. On my high speed connection (hmmm) it took a good while to download, but thats the price we had to pay for living in the middle of nowhere - slow internet.
[http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s … ars_rovers]Yahoo news had a somewhat shorter version that downloaded a bit quicker.

Stu · 2004-03-23 13:23:08

Summary: Meridiani was once a "shallow, salty sea"...

Quote from Steve Squyres:

"This area has the potential for the preservation of evidence (of life)".

He also just said that in Endurance crater they may be able to see and study "many metres of bedrock"...

Anyone else wondering if the team are now quietly hopeful of finding micro or larger fossils in Endurance..?

RobS · 2004-03-23 13:27:26

Maybe microfossils could be seen; the microscopic camera is pretty good. Macroscopic fossils on Earth didn't exist for a billion or more years, and by then Mars was in the drier Hesperian period. I doubt Martian life got to the stromatlite stage, though maybe it reached the algal mat stage.

-- RobS

Stu · 2004-03-23 13:29:25

doubt Martian life got to the stromatlite stage, though maybe it reached the algal mat stage.
-- RobS

Hey, I'll take a pic of part of an algal mat, no problem!

Rxke · 2004-03-23 13:30:12

Or signs of water seepage *wild grin*

A Warm Wet Past! Yeehaa!

Stu · 2004-03-23 13:35:05

Fantastic news, but can't help wondering what Beagle's instruments might have detected under the surface at Isidis...

Soon tho, soon, I can feel it...

Rxke · 2004-03-23 13:37:59

Boyboyboyboy... Slowly coming to the realisation... Standing surface water, been there long enough to to some serious sedimentation, erosion...

Can you see it? Close your eyes, try to imagine it...

Open water on Mars!

Or an ice-sea? No matter which one, it must've been a good deal hotter back then...

Just try to conjure up that picture in your mind's eye...

clark · 2004-03-23 13:40:08

I hope they don't find life. I hope they never find life via robotic probes. I hope all they find are hints that the environment might have been suitable for life, and may perhaps be suitable for some kind of life form still.

A discovery of life on Mars, exsisting now, or prior, puts the timetable for a manned mission to Mars back considerably.

If all we ever get is hints, then the allure of sending humans to actually find out will grow.

marsnik · 2004-03-23 13:44:01

Maybe microfossils could be seen; the microscopic camera is pretty good.

This is a good point. Does anyone know whether the tools on board are powerful enough to detect microfossils? I know we've seen some very fine-grained soil particles, but could we detect unicellular fossils, if they're there? I can certainly imagine that, before the mission was launched, it would have seemed wildly optimistic to create a camera with the microscopic capabilities for this sort of work... but now...

Can't you just picture NASA exobiologists hopping up and down in agonising curiosity?

--Bev

Stu · 2004-03-23 13:44:53

If all we ever get is hints, then the allure of sending humans to actually find out will grow.

Then again, paper-pushers and micro-managers might just think "Well, it's so risky sending people that maybe we should wait until all these hints of life become genuine proof..." and use it as an excuse to delay a manned mission endlessly...

???

clark · 2004-03-23 13:47:30

Ugh. To quote myself... sorry

If all we ever get is hints, then the allure of sending humans to actually find out will grow.

It got us this far.

But enough, I don't wish to derail the thread.

Looks like I'll be packing my swim trunks after all!

~Eternal~ · 2004-03-23 13:51:40

Aww... I was kinda hoping for petrified fungi ,
I guess this is good too.

Rxke · 2004-03-23 13:57:40

The microscope is not good enough, resolution something like 1MM/pixel... IIRC

It's more a "geologist's magnifying lens" than a real microscope...

Lars_J · 2004-03-23 14:02:15

Am I the only one who thinks that Dr. Garvin (sitting far right) is incredibly annoying?

marsnik · 2004-03-23 14:02:41

The microscope is not good enough, resolution something like 1MM/pixel... IIRC
It's more a "geologist's magnifying lens" than a real microscope...

About what I thought, thanks Rxke, which must be as frustrating for the the scientists, as for us. Still, this shortcoming could have the effect of making the sample-return mission more urgent. (Yes, I'm all for sending humans - today, tomorrow... yesterday, in fact! - but let's be pragmatic.)

cassioli · 2004-03-23 14:02:42

Boyboyboyboy... Slowly coming to the realisation... Standing surface water, been there long enough to to some serious sedimentation, erosion...
Can you see it? Close your eyes, try to imagine it...
Open water on Mars!
Or an ice-sea? No matter which one, it must've been a good deal hotter back then...
Just try to conjure up that picture in your mind's eye...

Why "mind's eye"? Use your REAL eyes:

This is only an example of synthetic images you can find at
[http://home-1.worldonline.nl/~veenen/]Kee's Terragen pages

You can also view how Gusev Crater could appear in the past:
[http://www.space4case.com/mars/mars7/mars_7.html]http://www.space4case.com/mars/mars7/mars_7.html

No Opportunity's site images, unfortunately. Maybe he'll create it now, after these news!

Luca

RobS · 2004-03-23 14:04:19

If we spend enough time and search enough outcrops, we should be able to find evidence whether the sea was ice covered or not. Ice does several things: (1) wnd blows it against the shoreline, bulldozing sediment in recognizable ways; (2) it can raft boulders out into quiet water and drop them there when the ice melts, leaving mysterious rocks in fine-grained sediment (crater ejecta will do this, also, but may be distinguishable if it was quenched by the water).

I think no one will argue that Opportunity has to be shut down when the money runs out!

As for Isidis: Considering how hard it is to see bedrock on Mars, Beagle might not have helped very much.

-- RobS

cassioli · 2004-03-23 14:07:53

Maybe microfossils could be seen; the microscopic camera is pretty good.
This is a good point. Does anyone know whether the tools on board are powerful enough to detect microfossils?

The "microscope" camera gives 1024x1024 images representing 30x30 millimeters; this means 0.0293 mm per pixel , or 29.3 um (1 um = 1/1.000.000 of 1 meter) per pixel.

I don't know the dimension of a cell; any idea?

Luca

Stu · 2004-03-23 14:09:55

As for Isidis: Considering how hard it is to see bedrock on Mars, Beagle might not have helped very much.
-- RobS

I was thinking more along the lines of what biologicalevidence / traces it might have found, burrowing under the surface with its little mole...

Oh well... (sigh)

Palomar · 2004-03-23 14:14:43

...and by then Mars was in the drier Hesperian period.

*I presume the word "Hesperian" is related to the mythological Hesperides (the Golden Apples of the Hesperides). Maybe a happy anticipation...

Thanks, RobS, for the unintended boot to the backside to refresh my knowledge of:

[http://www.msss.com/http/ps/age2.html]Click

--Cindy

Rxke · 2004-03-23 14:29:38

cassioli, thanks for the update, i was far off with my 'memory of the resolution of the imager...

about the Terragen pics: i know them, but i *still* think it's better to try to imagine it for yourself, heehhee...

RobS, didn't think of that possibility, but anyway, there will be traces of the sea receding, evaporating, maybe cooling, freezing... It's gone now, so...

So you can draw up a picture in our mind of *any* sea you like best

Adrian · 2004-03-23 14:32:18

The dimension of a cell is anywhere from 1um to 100um, with 10um being a reasonable average. The microscopic imager therefore would be basically unable to resolve a unicellular organism. However, if there were multicellular organisms, I don't think it would be out of the question for the imager to resolve them - the only problem is, how would you recognise them? It's no good just looking for blobs or stuff like that, as people here insist on doing - if you're going to make a claim for past life on Mars, you have to be absolutely sure, and I don't think that the imager is up to the job.

That said, I do think it may be able to pick up tantalizing evidence...

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Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

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