Spirit & Opportunity*4* - continue here

Rxke · 2004-03-01 08:55:23

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Rxke · 2004-03-01 09:07:10

So you guys were right!

Rumour has it, early next week big press conference!

[http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/o … 40229.html]Space.com

Stu · 2004-03-01 09:25:28

So you guys were right!
Rumour has it, early next week big press conference!
[http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/o … 40229.html]Space.com

Yeah, that's the report that really got me thinking and started to slot pieces of the jigsaw puzzle into place. If there is a press conference scheduled for next week it's a pretty safe bet that news will leak out before then, so we might just have a couple of days to wait...

Rxke · 2004-03-01 09:32:25

Can't help it, but this one sentence keeps popping up in my mind: (thinking that, yes, there is liquid water down there, and more...)

"Scientists dancing in the streets" :laugh:

GraemeSkinner · 2004-03-01 09:37:13

So you guys were right!
Rumour has it, early next week big press conference!
[http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/o … 40229.html]Space.com

I liked the line "There is a palpable buzz here at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) in Pasadena". So they're certainly onto something, water and biological history sounds good to me, perhaps they 'know' what the blueberries are? Or they have a nice juicy fossil image to show us. Could be an interesting week.

SohoBoy · 2004-03-01 10:03:52

Don't want to sound all ALIAS here, but is anyone else out there getting the twitchy-itchy feeling that the JPL guys are being so quiet because they're building up to a Big Announcement of some kind?
I don 't know, maybe it's me, but it just feels very trickle-down, drip-feedy science at the moment. The "news" and comments all seems to be about page 3 or 4 little things like the sizes of pebbles, how cool it is the rovers have spotted discarded pieces of themselves, how gorgeous the martian sunset is... Day after day we see page after page of pictures of that BL**DY sundial and the tiny sun, and no-one seems to be commenting on the fascinating and intriguing details seen in the pictures of the trenches dug by the rovers' wheels... And suddenly, even tho we're now drooling over pics of features out in the World Beyond The Crater there seems to be no rush to get Opportunity out of its crater, even when you can almost hear the rover itself screaming LET ME OUT!!!!!

I can quite understand the desire to make the most of Opportunities interplanetary geological 'hole-in-one' before pushing off for pastures new.

We all hope that the Rovers last for 90+ days, but on Mars theres no haul to the repair shop if anything malfunctions, so the best attitude has to be 'a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush'. Saying that, I'm still puzzled by the fact that no serious investigation of Sushi and Sashimi was attempted. To me both looked prime candidates for a closer look and 'ratting', and were most conveniently placed. The excuse that they were 'too dusty' is obvious nonsense. That Spirit then malfunctioned (fortunately only a file management problem) had me cussing somewhat. If they had not managed to salvage that situation I'm sure others would have been asking "Why no investigation of Sushi and Sashimi when you had the chance?"

Now Opportunity is faced by a long hard (but fortunately rock free) drive to the next area of interest. Many days of same ol' same ol'. Fingers crossed that it makes it to the big crater. I can understand the desire to wring the current location dry. Fingers crossed for Spirit too, which appears to be facing ever rougher going the further it progresses.

As for "trickle-down drip-feedy" - thats exactly how it feels to me. We get the pretty pictures and the ooh ahh sunset, but wheres the beef? for example the spectrometer readings from inside the trenches? And so far no commentary on any of the 'interesting' features e.g. the nature of the soil, including the 'duracrust' and the soils fascinating microstrusture - including the fine dark threads I'm seeing everywhere, which appear to be involved in forming these micostructures. [http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/1M1312 … 1.JPG.html]Here's one thread - which is easy to spot as its sitting out in the open. from the ratted sphere, track diagonally down and to the left. Its sitting an a shallow light coloured depression which the Rat hasnt quite reached, close to the edge of the ratted area. There are a couple of shorter sections of 'thread' in the same depression....

And what is the rock in Opportunities crater - an ultra fine grain sedimentary? Whats the chemistry? Spectrometer results please. I expect we'll have to make up a new geological category for it - Duststone.

Its obviously not a basalt as it looks [http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery]quite different to [http://www.keithlaney.com/SCI/V4.jpg]Adirondack when ratted.

Rxke · 2004-03-01 10:13:25

One thing in the article that bothers me... The 'Viking guy' (Disclaimer: I am terribly bad with names, i DO respect him, just forgot his name...)
... says the white stuff in the 'track-digs' is clearly ice?
That would've been easily measured, no? With all their 'search for the water' science packages aboard?

Either he is just babbling (on that issue,) or this is one of the "Big announcements" they're going to make. I doubt it, honestly, such a finding would've leaked long ago... It would mean *lots* of water, just beneath the surface!

I read some articles he wrote, years ago...and, given, he's kind of a zealot when it comes to the Viking labeled release experiment outomes, but they are pretty interesting, (the articles..) showed some kind of diurnal rhythm, taking place in the tested monsters, despite the fact they were closed off from the environment (light, temp) Tantalizing stuff...

Rxke · 2004-03-01 10:34:10

A bit off-topic, here:

Anyone remember when Opp. first touched down, and sent back the first B/W pictures? We really going... "But what *are* these black spots everywhere?"

Those marbles... If anyone had guessed back then we were looking at near-perfect spheres, he/she would've been laughed at...

Goes to show reality is always more amazing than anticipated, on Mars!

Now the question has changed: "What *are* those sperules everywhere?"

Will the answer -again- be more amazing than anticipated?

SohoBoy · 2004-03-01 11:21:52

One thing in the article that bothers me... The 'Viking guy' (Disclaimer: I am terribly bad with names, i DO respect him, just forgot his name...)

Gil Levin. The guy who designed the labelled gas release life detection experiment on Viking.

[http://www.keithlaney.com/OCI/R9.jpg]Ice? - hmmm... go figure... I think he might have been looking at a B/W and letting his imagination run away a bit...well I dont know..something's making the tracks in the bottom of the trench look really light. Maybe this is a salt crust? Moisture in the soil vapourising and leaving salts behind. Would this be fairly fast process in 10Mb atmosphere? And how long after the trench was dug was the photo taken ?

No life on Mars · 2004-03-01 11:57:31

I don't think any "big news conference" will take places next week.They need more times perhaps 2-6 months more to find out if water(oceans) was there.

Rxke · 2004-03-01 12:07:29

At this low pressure, the water would boil away pretty quick, I'd guess. If the subsurface is a brine, exposed parts would boil dry, form an 'isolation' layer, made out of cristallized salts?

It is weird, everywhere Opp runs, there's white stuff underneath, but... that can't be all salts... That 'white' craterrim in the distance, can't be salts... Wouldn't last...

*scratches head...*

Waitaminnit... certain 'iron-salts' (dunno how to say that right in English, it is the iron-group, not necc. Fe) are water-soluble... But if they get exposed to UV they get non-soluble! And Mars has a lot of UV, no ozone layer...
Being both rich in salt and iron... could that react into a sort of stable component? Forming a (semi-)weathering-proof layyer...

Ok, do take this with a pinch of salt (grin)

remcook · 2004-03-01 12:10:30

the retrorocket back section and parachute of the lander. It was in the news a while ago when it was first spotted. There are also a couple of small very bright patches on the ground in the same general direction, which I'm guessing are bits of the airbags outer 'sacrificial' layer. or {more likely as the ground is flat and rock free) other bits of the entire lander assembly which detached en route to the ground.

you obviously didn't see the wink

thanks for reminding me again how exciting this all is though

Bill White · 2004-03-01 13:42:35

MSNBC says [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3217961/]this.

Brine, lubberly brine!

Also see the "Big News Coming" entry at the [http://www.lamarssociety.org/]Louisiana Mars Society blog.

Rxke · 2004-03-01 14:09:21

Wait... They mean it's going to be Tomorrow???

Not early *next* week...

I have a question that drives me nuts: how come we only see BB all in the same order of magnitude of scale?
They're *all* fairly the same, none is 10x larger or smaller than the rest... Sole exceptin seems to be the one, with the smaller one attached to it...
Does that mean they 'solidify' or 'fossilize' at that point... And in a smaller state, are different in composition, so they don't last the weathering... Is there a geological process that can describe this behaviour, and if not...

(I am a *huge* sceptic, about life on that scale... but i fail to find geological analogues on Earth, the closest i came were those 'iron marbles' in the American desert, but they were not at all uniform in dimensions... And those marbles, too, are a bit of a mistery, for what i've read about them...)

Bill White · 2004-03-01 14:43:23

Press briefing [http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2004/ma … _brfg.html]tomorrow - - 2 March 2004!

If the brine is sterile, then I say "mine the brine" - - no need to carry hydrogen from Earth to do MarsDirect. If there is life, well its whole new ball game!

Rxke · 2004-03-01 15:00:41

"The panellists include"

Does that mean there could be other panelmembers?
Or is that a standard phrase?

BTW i keep coming back, looking at the trench... The bottom is cracked, looks like almost like there is a broken 'film'... Saltcrust?
And the place at the top/sides of the trench looks definitely slumping, mudlike...

Josh Cryer · 2004-03-01 15:13:17

Hmm, a big news briefing about... brine? I hope it's something more exciting, like fossils or whatever. Brine is all well and good, but on a planet the size of Mars, isn't it kind of going to occur somewhere?

chaosman · 2004-03-01 15:30:54

Two very good discussion forums here:

[http://www.markcarey.com/mars/forum.html]http://www.markcarey.com/mars/forum.html

[http://mer.rlproject.com/index.php?act=idx]http://mer.rlproject.com/index.php?act=idx
(good images here!)

Rxke · 2004-03-01 15:44:21

Hmmm... Tomorrow's also 'super tuesday', no? Great timing, NASA...

Chaosman, thanks for the links! :up:

SohoBoy · 2004-03-01 15:52:27

http://mer.rlproject.com/index.php?act= … 204]Salami with peppercorns

SohoBoy · 2004-03-01 16:13:18

Hi-res trucolour composite of Opportunity trench. overhead shot using L2, L3, L4, L5, L6, L7.
Originally posted by jmknapp at mer.rlproject.com

[http://www.copperas.com/astro/otrenchtrue.jpg]Opportunity trench overhead in colour

Heads up for UK marsfreaks - "Significant Findings" to be announced at Press Conference, [http://www.nasa.gov/ntv]on NASA TV Tuesday 2nd, 7pm UK time

BBC is announcing that its about evidence of 'past water on Mars'. OK NASA tell us something we didn't already know. Doh!

Anyway, bound to be interesting to see the evidence and their reasoning

atomoid · 2004-03-01 20:34:08

At this low pressure, the water would boil away pretty quick, I'd guess. If the subsurface is a brine, exposed parts would boil dry, form an 'isolation' layer, made out of cristallized salts?
It is weird, everywhere Opp runs, there's white stuff underneath, but... that can't be all salts... That 'white' craterrim in the distance, can't be salts... Wouldn't last...
Waitaminnit... certain 'iron-salts' (dunno how to say that right in English, it is the iron-group, not necc. Fe) are water-soluble... But if they get exposed to UV they get non-soluble! And Mars has a lot of UV, no ozone layer... Being both rich in salt and iron... could that react into a sort of stable component? Forming a (semi-)weathering-proof layyer...
Ok, do take this with a pinch of salt (grin)

Apparent brine crusts at the Opportunity landing site were clearly visible in the first few pictures in the [http://www.keithlaney.com/OCI/V3.jpg]white stuff in the rivulets of that little circular depression (crater?) that the lander almost came to a rest on top of.

Salt crusts? i'd assumed so, and if so, the brine might creep to the surface if disturbed in some way such as a small meteorite or lander backshell impact, then it would dry out and solidify in the UV leaving a crust of dessicated brine in the bottom of these rivulets. would the salt be in crystaline form as we see on earth and thus tend to exist as larger particles? or maybe the UV and such breaks em up into fines...

On the other hand, the white stuff might blow in from elsewhere, it seems to have the consistency of talc by the way it sits nestled in the rivulets, so if the wind blows just right for long enough, this white substance builds up as the white deposits in this "crater", it might get blown away relatively quickly when conditions change, otherwise we'd see more of this stuff shouldnt we? and maybe we do, perhaps its just eroded bedrock material (whatever that is) and it normally just blows away to finely disperse, not usually collecting anywhere en mass... the white "brine crust" in the rover trench and the [http://www.freewebs.com/atomoid/CraterCrusties.jpg]"crater" crusts would be the same stuff in this scenario.

Unfortunately for some reason, the rover scientists didnt bother to investigate the "Crater" feature, so unless we get spectra of it, theres no way to tell if its the same material or not......

atomoid · 2004-03-01 21:27:15

Heres]http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2004/02/09/03_R1400762sub.gif]Here's a good view of the small dark depression (its not really all that gloomy!) between the "hole-in-one" crater and the big crater. This little crater doesnt show up in [http://www.marsunearthed.com/Opportunit … Region.htm]the usually referenced MOC image. Its clearly visible in the orbital picture, and you can see it in [http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/1P1312 … 1.JPG.html]images showing the bright far wall of the big crater.

Speaking of which, the crater wall almost looks like its lit up by the sunrise -the sunlight having not yet lit up the soil in front of the lander. Note the different level of brightness of the far wall is much different in these pictures, for instance compare [http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … 94L4M1.JPG]the L4 image to [http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … 94R4M1.JPG]the R4 image

At first i assumed that the brightness of the wall is due to the filters affecting the apparent brightness due to mineral composition, however, these two images use the same filter #4, one from the Left camera and the other from the Right camera. Both images were taken at the same time, so aside from parallax affects, they should look the same but thats not what we see here... are the filters the same on the left and right cameras ???

Lars_J · 2004-03-01 22:54:56

The filters are not the same on the left and right Pancam's. The left filters are are mostly around the visible spectrum, while the right ones are mostly far infrared.

Here are the filter details:
LEFT CAMERA RIGHT CAMERA
1 = EMPTY (clear) 1 = 436nm (37nm Short-pass)
2 = 753nm (20nm bandpass) 2 = 754nm (20nm bandpass)
3 = 673nm (16nm bandpass) 3 = 803nm (20nm bandpass)
4 = 601nm (17nm bandpass) 4 = 864nm (17nm bandpass)
5 = 535nm (20nm bandpass) 5 = 904nm (26nm bandpass)
6 = 482nm (25nm bandpass) 6 = 934nm (25nm bandpass)
7 = 432nm (32nm Short-pass) 7 = 1009nm (38nm Long-pass)
8 = 440nm (20) Solar ND 5.0 8 = 880nm (20) Solar ND 5.0

As you can see, there's only two stereoscopic matches:
1. L2/R2 - Infrared stereoscopic
2. L7/R1 - Ultraviolet stereoscopic
(There's also L0/R0 for Navcam and the Hazcams - no filtering)

So it makes sense that an L4 image would look quite different than a R4 one.

GraemeSkinner · 2004-03-02 01:02:08

http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/2M1314 … html]These holes (well seven of them) look recent. It may be my eyes - its early and i've been studying too hard this morning - but the holes don't seem to fit in with the natural depressions that cover the rest of the image.

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